#eevblog - 2020-01-10 - AustNet Archive Project

// #eevblog — 2020-01-10

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« 2020-01-09 2020-01-11 »
03:01 <Ysjoelfir> Sounds like a healthy, nourishing meal. Go for it.
09:54 * hsn is sad no one ask him in EEVBlog :')
10:20 <Ysjoelfir> You want me to redirect the guy to you? :D
10:45 <hsn> no thanks :D
11:09 <hsn> datasheets usually put information about thermal derating ?
11:16 <Ysjoelfir> I redirected him to the beginners section^^ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/jbc-t210-and-t245-225242/
11:27 <Ysjoelfir> not usually, but sometimes
11:51 <hsn> his name is my name :')
12:21 <Ysjoelfir> Nice :D So you should help him!
17:17 <Ysjoelfir> finally done with the PCB. I would say this has the most vias I have ever designed into anything
17:40 <hsn> rf?
18:06 <Ysjoelfir> No, other end of the spectrum. 50Hz, but with high currents.
18:40 <Ysjoelfir> High currents with very high demands in regards of very low track resistance to be precise
21:03 <Ysjoelfir> That leads to extensive Stitching to connect the several mm wide tracks over four layers... https://snipboard.io/9QSaAH.jpg
24:41 <hsn> looks yummy
26:00 Quit: ChanOP ([email protected]) serviceshub.austnet.org services.austnet.org
27:06 <hsn> reminds me of one of eevblog vids, some people use wires like jumper added after the (design) but it actually just to have small resistance
29:41 <Ysjoelfir> Yes, I watched that one too.
31:00 <Ysjoelfir> In my case I have to make sure that the resistance is low directly from the board since one goal is to reduce the assembly time. previously the product was completely hand wired, now I want to introduce two PCBs (one for power, one for control) that is just screwed onto some contacts
31:29 <Ysjoelfir> So manual tinning of traces or even routing additional wires is a no no in this case
31:58 <hsn> 2 oz layers?
32:13 <Ysjoelfir> 4 layers with 4 oz copper
32:43 <hsn> nice
33:37 <Ysjoelfir> it should be. prototype works flawless, but the traces get a bit warm which introduces losses I don't want to have in that product
34:18 <Ysjoelfir> it needs to have a very specific impedance, so any additional trace resistance is unwanted.
34:29 <Ysjoelfir> especially because of the high temperature coeffcient of copper
35:37 <K> silver or bust!
37:06 <Ysjoelfir> xD naa, that would be a bit over the top
37:26 <K> weak
38:58 <Ysjoelfir> and expensive
39:26 <rust_collector> I think your best bet would be to use silver
40:16 <rust_collector> or to abandon that project, and design a nice but simple power supply for me
40:30 <rust_collector> yes, that is a much better idea
40:46 * T3sl4 sticks a rectum fryer in rust_collector
41:06 <K> where, exactly?
43:00 <T3sl4> rectum seems pretty specific
43:04 <Ysjoelfir> What kind of PSU do you need rusty?
44:04 <rust_collector> uhm, I don't need one, but it is just the project I am interested in.
44:25 <rust_collector> oh, good thing I just made room in my rectum
45:32 <rust_collector> But I have to come up with something to use all these transformers and crap for
47:30 <T3sl4> start an interplanetary war?
47:38 <K> throw them at people that anoy you?
47:50 * T3sl4 ducks
47:54 <K> bhh
47:56 <rust_collector> I don't have that many
48:39 <hsn> An industrial grade with an operating temperature range of -40°C/+71°C ambient with no derating and a maximum case temperature of 91°C
49:09 <hsn> what does this means ? i dont need to care about relaiblity ? :D
49:52 <rust_collector> it means you have to load it pretty hard to keep your coffee hot
50:07 <hsn> just to make sure that my Tj is within range when ambient is 70
51:10 <hsn> so if a chip has abs max Tj 125 .. i just have to be sure that the product works from ambient 70C right?
52:42 <hsn> oh man dont scare me :D
52:53 <T3sl4> which one do you have to meet
52:59 <T3sl4> the ambient?
58:07 <hsn> https://snipboard.io/AaPhdW.jpg ,, yeah im trying to understand the derating.. and relaiblity
07:55 <Ysjoelfir> as far as I understand it you don't have to derate the part while using it in the temperature range of -40 to 71C. however you must keep your TJ below the max 125C, but as far as that is ensured you can draw full power per the specificated limits.
08:02 <Ysjoelfir> What do you think T3sl4?
10:46 <hsn> so if the part maximum limit is 1W, derating it is like taking percentage of that maximum .. ? but why invent such a thing if the (abs max limit) is true ?
18:58 <Ysjoelfir> Because the abs max isn't true :) it is to be understood as... lets say.... the maximum you can use the part at shortly before destruction
21:13 <hsn> i thought (abs max) is the before breaking it .. and (recommended) is the true ..
21:49 <Ysjoelfir> thats what i meant.
21:59 <hsn> im sorry i edit my original question why (component derating) if we just can (trust) (recommended).
23:24 <hsn> is that like just like (margin + quality) thing?
23:27 <Ysjoelfir> Well, it's not always that easy. Take a MLCC cap for example. the nominal value is like 100nF, 10V. But if you bias that thing with 10V it will never ever have 100nF. You have to look at the derating curve to see what capacitance is left.
25:10 <DHess_US> the absolute maximum specification is not even that. Operation at that level lowers reliability no matter what the temperature is.
25:49 <DHess_US> Parts are *not* designed to operate at their absolute maximum specification on a continuous basis.
26:23 <DHess_US> So for instance +/-18 volt linear parts are expected to operate at up to +/-15
26:32 <Ysjoelfir> absolutely. you never ever operate parts at the maximum spec. well, at least not if you like your project to last for more than a few *insert random time here*.
27:54 <T3sl4> hsn: so, you are making a EN50155 compliant device that needs to handle those temps?
29:03 <DHess_US> Incidentally, you can grade some parts for operation at higher voltage or temperature by measuring things like leakage or quiescent current during burn in at an elevated temperature.
30:31 <hsn> T3sl4: yes
30:53 <T3sl4> what is that, modules plugged into a rack?
31:03 <hsn> i dont think it will handle -40C :D
31:28 <hsn> its a vacuum toilet unit
32:09 <T3sl4> yummy
34:02 <Ysjoelfir> Those toilets are rather funny. did you ever try to place a small amount of toilet paper into the bowl, NOT ripping it off the roll, and then flushing it?
34:13 <Ysjoelfir> you have never seen a roll of toilet paper empty that fast
34:23 <DHess_US> Unless you have a cat.
34:24 <hsn> although i dont think it will have these operating ambient temperature.. i think rolling stock will have temperature control when there is power
34:38 <Ysjoelfir> you got a point there DHess
35:07 <hsn> yeah there is testing method of rolling 10meters of toilet paper meter by meter .. and flush it
35:24 <DHess_US> All of the low temperature failures I have seen were due to insufficient operating margin or because water condensed causing electrolysis.
36:05 <DHess_US> They were not because something broke unless wet electrolytic capacitors were involved.
36:08 <hsn> does people have heating element inside their case to prevent that ?
36:51 <Ysjoelfir> hsn, temp control is only possible if you are not in germany. every summer the Deutsche Bahn is supprised by the high temperatures, which means the ACs dont work, and every winter they are absolutely suprised by cold temperatures, so the turnouts don't work anymore as they are frozen.
37:14 <DHess_US> Boss came in once and asked how the low temperature tests were going. "I'm not sure. The thermometer in the environment chamber only goes down to -200."
38:01 <DHess_US> Liquid nitrogen was pooling in the environment chamber and running out onto the table and floor through the bottom edge of the door.
38:47 <hsn> did the cpu loved it :')
39:15 <DHess_US> Was an precision analog circuit which went on the F/A-18.
39:24 <T3sl4> DHess_US: nice way to condense some oxygen
39:49 <DHess_US> Never saw it happen but there had to be a little.
40:56 <Ysjoelfir> Supercooled Oxygen is such a nice stuff...
41:02 <T3sl4> so uh, temps that low weren't actually part of an operational test, right?
41:35 <hsn> i thought its just environmental cycling right?
43:13 <T3sl4> i would guess an env chamber with thermometer down to -200 is LN2 powered, a reasonable way to reach such temperatures
44:06 <T3sl4> in which case, it could malfunction and spill a lot of that, which would result in the mentioned pooling, but one might suspect it would be shut down when that was noticed?
46:20 <hsn> i dont understand cold im from desert :)
46:51 <Ysjoelfir> it's the opposite of that warm sensation you feel when hugging a cactus :)
47:26 <T3sl4> its what it does at night
47:33 * Ysjoelfir waits patiently for Pulsonix to finish generating the crappy 3D preview
47:58 <rust_collector> antarctica is a desert... I would say it gets pretty cold
48:07 * hsn thinks hot is shitter at least in cold u wear jacket and everything is hunky-doory 
48:26 <Ysjoelfir> I aggree. I hate the heat..
49:03 * Ysjoelfir sits, waiting, while wearing short trousers and a t-shirt while other people around wear jackets indoors....
50:12 * hsn work naked at home at summer
50:46 <Ysjoelfir> I do that too, at home. Even though I doubt that it gets that hot here as it gets at your place...
50:46 * hsn lies
50:51 <DHess_US> T3sl4, no, I was doing destructive testing by that point. The military requirements were severe but not that severe.
50:53 * Ysjoelfir doesn't
51:01 <hsn> :D
51:26 <DHess_US> I wanted to know how much temperature margin there was. On the cold side, nothing I could do would cause a failure.
51:43 <hsn> in how much time the F/A-18 changes from ambient 25C to -xC ?
52:05 <hsn> near electronics not the body
52:07 <DHess_US> It had to not fail down to -50C or something.
55:09 <Ysjoelfir> it is still generating the 3D preview...........
55:15 * Ysjoelfir starts eating the keyboard again
55:22 <hsn> so heating elements ?
55:28 <hsn> @DHess_US ^
56:12 <DHess_US> Not required for what I was doing. But my point is that operation at low temperatures is possible with the right design even with parts not rated for it.
56:16 <T3sl4> DHess_US: FET circuits?
56:36 <DHess_US> T3sl4, there was a big power MOSFET in the regulator but no, all bipolar.
56:49 <DHess_US> LT1013 I think.
57:16 <Ysjoelfir> Are FETs that sensitive to cold temperatures?
57:22 <DHess_US> solid tantalums instead of aluminum electrolytics
57:33 <DHess_US> No Z5U capacitors
58:18 <DHess_US> Ysjoelfir, not in this case but in a general sense yes.
58:37 <DHess_US> oscillators tend to have problems starting when cold for instance.
58:49 <T3sl4> impressive, BJTs usually freeze out down there
59:08 <Ysjoelfir> Good to know that. I have never worked with temperatures that low, but knowledge might can come in handy
59:46 <DHess_US> I'm sure it drove some of the precision specifications outside of their window but the design was conservative.
00:21 <DHess_US> The power MOSFET was massively derated for high temperature operation.
00:45 <DHess_US> Essentially I just got the highest power part in the TO-220 package.
01:08 <DHess_US> So 400 volts, 10 amps, where the requirements were 90 volts and 200 milliamps
01:52 <Ysjoelfir> aaaah, come on, every one hung low factory uses such slight deratings :D
01:59 <hsn> whaaaat da!
02:28 <DHess_US> It had to sustain overload input voltage without damage. I tested it by plugging it into the wall.
02:35 <Ysjoelfir> (...but in the opposite direction)
02:36 <hsn> thats not derating. thats rerating !
02:40 <DHess_US> Which exceeded even the military requirements.
03:04 <DHess_US> Ysjoelfir, It included a diode in series.
03:17 <DHess_US> If I did it again, I would make changes.
03:31 <DHess_US> It was only later that I had to deal with UL rated stuff.
03:58 <Ysjoelfir> sounds like a fun project :)
04:28 <Ysjoelfir> https://snipboard.io/yEO3Jn.jpg sooooooooooooooooooon........ (please note: the upper bar is the total progress...)
04:51 <hsn> i know why
04:57 <K> raytracing or somth?
05:05 <K> with 10k bounces
05:05 <hsn> it takes so much time because of the power resistors
05:22 <DHess_US> It wasn't. It was a few weeks of 12 hour days to do the board layout.
06:10 <Ysjoelfir> no ray or smoothing.... it always takes ages, regardles of the parts.
06:23 <Ysjoelfir> oh, so you had a tight timeline DHess_US?
07:55 <DHess_US> Ysjoelfir, and this was 20+ years ago so no automation.
08:09 <T3sl4> last year i made an automotive device that doesn't flinch at load dump; since it didn't draw much current i went with a depletion MOS, the lowest suitably rated available part which happened to be rated 200V, so hey, 240V peak input rating.
08:19 <DHess_US> Not that automated layout would have worked on an analog board anyway.
08:30 <T3sl4> DHess_US, about how many components?
08:57 <DHess_US> Yea, that's basically what I did however today I would include foldback protection to simply disconnect.
09:13 <T3sl4> yeah that helps
09:17 <DHess_US> T3sl4, not many but all small surface mount.
09:22 <DHess_US> Which was a new thing then.
09:40 <T3sl4> *IBM stares suspiciously*
09:52 <DHess_US> It was new outside of hybrid construction.
10:10 <DHess_US> small surface mount. Not normal surface mount.
10:27 <DHess_US> On a flexible substrate.
10:57 <Ysjoelfir> Are we talking of small like 0603 or like 0201?
11:10 <DHess_US> 0402
11:32 <Ysjoelfir> didn't know that was a thing back then. But on the other hand, 20 years ago I was 6.
12:26 <hsn> so meeting -25C / +70C isnt that big deal right :)
12:45 <hsn> please tell me its not :')
13:15 <DHess_US> At the high end it can be. At the low end proper design will handle it.
13:31 <DHess_US> 70C doesn't leave much room for derating.
13:55 <Ysjoelfir> it's moderate. the higher end is usually a bit harder, on the low end I would suspect slight condensation problems could occur
14:15 <DHess_US> Yea, but condensation is a problem for the mechanical engineers.
14:24 <Ysjoelfir> If ther is any
14:28 <Ysjoelfir> *there
14:49 <DHess_US> I know what I would do *now* but we never had a satisfactory solution for that.
15:02 <DHess_US> We potted the whole thing in gel.
15:31 <Ysjoelfir> what would you do? I'm actually interested as I am working at home on a product intended to be used on motorcycles
15:38 <DHess_US> With thin encapsulations, we always had problems with it peeling up.
15:40 <Ysjoelfir> and potting was my way to go, too
15:44 <hsn> if it fail.. its the electronics engineers problem
16:16 <DHess_US> Oh, my solution now is to clean the board, bake it out, and then encapsulate it under a vacuum.
16:49 <hsn> conformal coatings?
16:50 <Ysjoelfir> well, that might be a bit overkill for my use :D
16:55 <Ysjoelfir> IT IS DONE!
16:56 <Ysjoelfir> finally
17:09 <DHess_US> hsn, like I said, we always had problems with conformal coatings peeling.
18:02 <Ysjoelfir> I had even problems with potting it. somehow the water crept inside, shorted my FET and draining my bikes battery.
18:15 <DHess_US> Yes, potting isn't a complete solution.
18:23 <DHess_US> It isn't easy either.
18:54 <DHess_US> What I might do for hobby production is conformally coat by dipping in hot wax.
19:40 <Ysjoelfir> I thought about that. Worked quite good in the old cars and radios, so why not?
20:16 <DHess_US> Need the right wax mixture though. It needs to not crack and it needs to not be permeable to water.
20:22 <Ysjoelfir> https://snipboard.io/X6KdAM.jpg and for that crappy render that damn think took nearly 50 minutes...
20:40 <Ysjoelfir> I read about a mixture of wax, vaseline and oil to accomplish that
21:01 <hsn> that ugly rendering
21:07 <Ysjoelfir> yes.
21:25 <hsn> give me i'll import it in solidworks for u
21:26 <hsn> :D
21:57 <Ysjoelfir> We have autocad here, but exporting the PCB as a step file takes exactly as long :X
22:04 <T3sl4> Ysjoelfir: geez, Ultiboard just about did as well
22:23 <T3sl4> just imagine, Altium does that real time
22:40 <Ysjoelfir> It's nasty, isn't it? I always miss my circuit...studio-thing when being at work and having to check mechanical stuff.
23:08 <Ysjoelfir> and altium does it even better looking.. with smooth rotating and zooming and paning and whatnot...
23:12 <T3sl4> is there an effective ASCII export so you can "work from home"?
24:01 <hsn> ascii export? step ?
24:07 <Ysjoelfir> nope. But it could import from many programms. sadly the whole ecosystem here is coupled to an SAP like system, so I would have to embed those parts to my installation at home, yadda yadda yadda
26:05 <T3sl4> e.g. Protel ASCII PcbDoc
26:14 <T3sl4> though that doesn't contain 3D info i think, so that wouldn't help your modeling
28:44 <Ysjoelfir> However, now I'm finished and have to wait for our mechanics guy to pack that PCB into the enclosure
29:20 <Ysjoelfir> And then, finally, after 20 years of this product existing with its many flaws, we can announce that we have made a new version. xD
29:55 <Ysjoelfir> And it took me an astonishing time of.... lets say half a year, to re-develop it from scratch....
30:11 <T3sl4> ew
31:10 <Ysjoelfir> Well, besides working on other projects. But yeah.
31:38 <K> sir, if that took 50 minutes, i think you've been ripped off
32:23 <Ysjoelfir> It did. maybe because it renders every fucking via (without showing any of them in the final render or step output...), who knows.
32:40 <T3sl4> but hey, last year i was called in to work on a "new" product for a large electrical manufacturer... this particular product had been in development for about 5+ years and consists of a custom rack of boards for AC V/I sense inputs, relay outputs, comms (ethernet/serial/fiber/etc) and a mainboard...
32:41 <EEVBlog> NBN, HAH, more like No Broadband Network!
32:56 <Ysjoelfir> But as I didn't pay for that software, I don't care. I get paid for being here and working, so hey. :D
33:19 <T3sl4> they basically put a custom Rpi3 or so into a custom enclosure with custom peripherals (PCIe connected via backplane)
33:29 <Ysjoelfir> That doesn't sound to complicated?
34:12 <T3sl4> considering their LCD display and comms would run on say an STM32F4 just fine, even if they demand linux as a requirement
35:09 <T3sl4> and no need for FPGAs to handle PCIe nodes
35:26 <K> no FPGAs? weak
35:55 <T3sl4> they basically put a Cyclone 3 (not them, actually the Lattice equivalent more or less) on every board
37:00 <T3sl4> and apparently they're something like 10% over budget for sale price, because all these boards cost $200+ assembled
37:24 <hsn> wait a minute
37:34 <T3sl4> but apparently the couple million bucks of wasted dev time isn't part of the budget?
37:38 <hsn> EEVBlog = both bot + dave ?
38:23 <T3sl4> anyway, i was called in to fix the PSU, which belched out so much noise i couldn't even tell what was going on with a near field probe
38:25 <K> EEVBlog is Amperas pet
38:31 <T3sl4> hi EEVBlog
38:43 <T3sl4> EEVBlog: oi cunt
38:43 <EEVBlog> If you keep saying that, I'm gonna hold you upside down and shake you until all the electrons fall out, T3sl4!
38:49 <T3sl4> ayyy
38:53 <K> T3sl4, right angled traces?!
38:55 <K> (ducks)
39:00 <T3sl4> worse
39:02 <T3sl4> no ground plane
39:12 <K> as is tradition
39:48 <K> i got myself that "high speed digital design black book"
39:55 <K> like - a real book
40:06 <K> cost 70 eur, it did, used!
40:14 <T3sl4> yummy
40:19 <K> shipped from usa
40:20 <Ysjoelfir> I asked myself the same for this project here @T3sl4 (regarding the dev time). I am the third one developing on this thing. all previous were canceled because the people left. I don't get it why nobody continued the work
40:33 <Ysjoelfir> woah, a real book? with paper and such? :O
40:37 <K> yea!
40:44 <Ysjoelfir> i love those!
40:46 <K> even had two paper bookmarks in it!
40:47 <K> free!
40:48 <T3sl4> chronically incompetent and/or toxic management has that effect, Ysjoelfir
41:15 <K> well, not proper bookmakrks, more like foled pieces of paper. one yellow, and one pink!
41:22 <Ysjoelfir> Just recently I got my hands on an ancient book about the beginnings of electrics. I have to take a photo when I get home, it is realy beautiful!
41:36 <hsn> i have no idea what what that T3sl4 but it really sound aweful
41:54 <Ysjoelfir> that is the part that puzzles me the most T3sl4. Both are actually realy nice here
42:23 <Ysjoelfir> even the chef, knowing nothing about electronics, tries to learn while talking to us devs, to understand our problems and what we need
42:28 <K> why did the people leve then?
42:39 <T3sl4> pay?
42:46 <K> all of them?
42:51 <Ysjoelfir> one because of the pay, one because of family afaik
43:11 <K> then the project had the bus factor of 2 ?
43:19 <Ysjoelfir> pardon?
43:27 <T3sl4> hehe
43:31 <K> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor
43:47 <T3sl4> how many members of the team can be hit by a bus before the project is completely screwed
44:06 <Ysjoelfir> nice one :D actually it would have a bus factor of one.
44:06 <K> management didn't care that much for it then, i would see
44:14 <Ysjoelfir> thats correct K
44:20 <Ysjoelfir> it's only a side product
45:18 <Ysjoelfir> but since stocks of the old version are running low it needs to be redone now, as some parts are unobtainium now
46:14 <T3sl4> the project i was talking about before, its last version was something like early 2000s IIRC
46:49 <Ysjoelfir> thats rather new
47:11 <Ysjoelfir> even though the last revision from this one here is 20 years old, the main design dates back to 1976
48:42 <Ysjoelfir> What I don't get is, how could it be so hard for my predecessors to finish this project? it's basically just a big inductor, 2 resistors, a relay and some peripherals (times the number of phases)...
50:58 <T3sl4> my first job-as-such was a similarly purgatoried project, which amounts to a resonant power supply (induction heater)
51:22 <T3sl4> but its management was terrible so that would happen
54:01 <Ysjoelfir> Terrible Management is always one of the biggest problems ;)
54:47 <hsn> in my case its good
54:52 <hsn> because i do what i want
55:24 <hsn> im software im hardware im technician ..
56:05 <rust_collector> management?
56:18 <hsn> they dont know what im doing
56:20 <hsn> :D
56:24 <hsn> but they like me
57:16 <hsn> @rust_collector
57:19 <hsn> ^
59:48 <hsn> https://youtu.be/_Xs7aqqH-ZQ?t=14
00:03 <Ysjoelfir> I'm going home. See u later guys :)
00:09 <T3sl4> o/
00:20 <hsn> got this thermal imaging phone want to try some bjt burning
00:33 Quit: Ysjoelfir ([email protected]) Connection closed
00:49 <hsn> see ya
01:42 <hsn> bcz i just learned about (Rthata ja) stuff.. yesterday .. so its time to burn some bjts .. :D
02:13 <hsn> see u .. im going home as well
07:46 <K> bye
08:25 <rust_collector> I am already home. it just takes a bit of planning
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45:07 <Ysjoelfir> Hi all
45:19 <Ysjoelfir> Back at home :)
47:48 <Ampera> hullo
58:06 <Ysjoelfir> Today I bought a massaging seat.... cushion thing.
58:07 <Ysjoelfir> that
58:08 <Ysjoelfir> thing
58:09 <Ysjoelfir> is
58:10 <Ysjoelfir> awesome
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58:29 <Ysjoelfir> right now my ass is vibrating as hell
58:40 <Ysjoelfir> and my back gets tortured *_*
58:49 <Ysjoelfir> That feels soooooooooooo good
18:37 * T3sl4 takes out Ysjoelfir's vibrator and sells it to Ampera
19:01 <Ysjoelfir> ey
19:02 <Ysjoelfir> mine
19:14 * Ysjoelfir feels soft
42:25 <Ysjoelfir> Is K still here?
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23:36 <Ysjoelfir> The hell?
42:52 Quit: EEVBlog1 ([email protected]) Connection closed
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49:29 <DHess_US> https://img.pr0gramm.com/2020/01/09/8bfc6b362e65c16c.jpg
49:56 <Ysjoelfir> Oo
54:05 Quit: hsn ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
07:47 Join: hsn ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
41:40 <T3sl4> Ampera: look what you could do! https://www.reddit.com/r/maybemaybemaybe/comments/em6fmd/maybe_maybe_maybe/
42:19 <Ampera> you have a funny definition of the word could, T3sl4
42:37 <T3sl4> "fall over a lot" i assume
44:06 Quit: AndrevS ([email protected]) Connection closed
49:27 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: 4K Failed: the TRUTH about HD vs 4K https://t.co/yFh8RK7j69
06:58 Join: Cole ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
09:25 Quit: Cole ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
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52:50 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o T3sl41
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24:28 * Halcyon coffees all over steve30 
26:43 Quit: Ysjoelfir ([email protected]) Connection closed
40:35 * Halcyon licks Ampera
41:00 <Ampera> Hi Halcyon
41:01 <Ampera> good morning
41:04 <Halcyon> :)
41:44 <Ampera> going to have some chinese food maybe
41:49 <Halcyon> Oh yum
41:56 <Halcyon> I actually kind of feel like BBQ pork
42:04 <Ampera> you have work today, right?
42:06 <Ampera> or is it friday there
42:07 <Halcyon> Nope
42:08 <Halcyon> Friday
42:10 <Ampera> ah
42:13 <Halcyon> \o/
42:18 <Ampera> I'm sitting next to my grandfather
42:22 <Halcyon> Oh hello Richard :D
42:30 <Ampera> he said hi mike
42:41 <Halcyon> BRB, need another coffee
44:33 <Halcyon> Jerry had a shower with me this morning
44:41 <Halcyon> It was his first time, he has been too scared to go in before
53:57 <Ampera> Halcyon, we ordered
54:16 <Ampera> he's getting a pupu platter for two for one, and I'm getting sesame chicken and sweet & sour pork
54:28 <Halcyon> Delish
55:18 <Halcyon> Thinking about making southern fried cauliflower later
55:41 <Ampera> I did a skatboard today
55:54 <Ampera> fell once, and then managed to roll down a street
56:16 <Halcyon> Heh nice :D
56:22 <Halcyon> Skaters are hawt :P
57:20 <Ampera> Halcyon, female ones I suppose
57:25 <Halcyon> Nah
57:37 <Halcyon> Women can't do what men can do ;-) :P
58:04 Quit: Chipguy ([email protected]) Quit: Connection closed by foreign host
58:09 <Ampera> women can't walk into a custody court with 0 chance of getting their kids :P
58:32 <Halcyon> Maybe in America :P
58:55 <Ampera> women get it way better here across the board
58:57 <Halcyon> Here our courts tend to be fair
59:06 <Halcyon> Sometimes too soft, but generally fair
59:16 <Ampera> lower rate of violent crimes comitted against, by far better luck in court
59:49 <Ampera> the woman is chosen almost all of the time in custody battles over the man
59:52 <Halcyon> I'd say in many cases (not most), but many, the woman is actually the aggressor in DV incidents
59:57 <Halcyon> That's based on personal experience
00:00 <Ampera> DV?
00:06 <Halcyon> Domestic Violence
00:07 <Ampera> oh domestic
00:29 <Ampera> I don't know the statistics here, but the issue is that what counts as DV from and man and from a woman are completely different
00:42 <Ampera> women really have to fuck a guy up physically in order to get anything
00:54 <Halcyon> DV is DV, regardless of gender, I actually personally think the definition of DV here is TOO broad.
01:09 <Ampera> here if your wife is abusive as man
01:13 <Ampera> lol, good luck kiddo
01:20 <Halcyon> If you have ever been in an intimate relationship with someone, regardless if you broke up 10 years ago and no longer live together
01:26 <Ampera> here if your husband is abusive as a woman
01:35 <Halcyon> And technically even a verbal argument can be a DV (even though there is no offence for having an argument)
01:37 <Ampera> he has till the count of three to eject himself from this universe until someone does it for him
02:27 <Halcyon> We moved away from this whole "Violence against women" thing a while ago. It's bullshit, it's violence... period.
02:50 <Ampera> and at the end of the day, men are still to blame for all of society's woes, and get fucking shit on in terms of mental health
02:58 <Halcyon> Generally, I agree
03:40 <Ampera> I think both genders have shit to worry about, but it's a two way playing field
03:57 <Ampera> we have fairer treatment between the sexes than we have ever had before
04:25 <Ampera> but while women get to do whatever with little consequence, men's role really hasn't changed, and they have to be the responsible emotionally stable people
04:51 <Halcyon> Yup
06:03 <Ampera> and we're still letting homosexuals roam around the street instead of putting them back into mental institutions where they belong
06:21 <Halcyon> Hahaha
06:23 <Halcyon> You shithead :P
07:24 <Halcyon> I should go to the hardware store. I need to get more fertiliser for the lawn
12:24 <Ampera> Halcyon, you're the only person I know who both waters and fertilizes his lawn
13:01 <Halcyon> I'm also the only person in the suburb who has a lush green lawn :)
13:15 <Ampera> Halcyon, you also have a lush <insert hair colour> lawn too.
13:26 <Halcyon> blonde?
13:36 <Ampera> idk, I'm not gonna ask for pictures
13:41 <Halcyon> You've seen me
14:00 <Ampera> I haven't seen your lawn
14:15 <Halcyon> Oh "that" lawn. That's really short :P
14:46 <Ampera> I'm German, I have enough hair on me to be considered king kong
15:00 <Halcyon> You could weave a rug
15:16 <Ampera> I'm gonna look into something that does IPL
23:54 <Halcyon> I'm going to the bathroom
28:32 <Ampera> food is here
15:32 Quit: hsn ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
28:03 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: The sheep have vanished... https://t.co/r82wYPAzN7
05:19 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Retweet: Anthony VE2HEW 🇨🇦: @eevblog They must all be in line in front of the Apple store
08:21 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: It's 20,000km of nothing past those rocks. And I'm breathing officially the cleanest air in the world. https://t.co/wioQAXgBhV
17:33 <Halcyon> I had a pork roll
17:44 <Ampera> hi Halcyon
17:56 <Ampera> diaster struck minou today.
18:03 <Halcyon> Oh no what happened?
18:17 <Ampera> so my aunt had a wax diffuser, which was just a dish of hot wax powered by a lightbulb
18:28 <Ampera> minou decided to take a wax shower :P
18:33 <Halcyon> Stupid cat
18:38 <Halcyon> So do you have to shave him now?
18:41 <Ampera> he was and still is coated in thick candle wax
18:43 <Ampera> nah, it'll fall out
18:59 <Halcyon> Heh, shave him anyway, it'll look funny
19:05 <Ampera> no, it's winter, it'd be cruel
19:08 <Halcyon> But leave the head, he will look like a little lion
19:27 <Ampera> it's a very very mean thing to do to cats in general, since they rely on their fur to keep body temperature.
20:20 <Halcyon> What about hairless cats?
20:35 <Halcyon> The ones that look like bollocks
20:42 <Ampera> they're born like that, they're used to it and don't rely on their fur.
20:50 <Halcyon> :P
21:08 <Ampera> they still likely get far colder than normal cats, which have higher body temperatures than humans
55:09 Quit: coppice_ ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
06:15 Join: coppice_ ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
33:52 * T3sl41 shaves Ampera
08:11 * Halcyon nibbles T3sl41 
08:27 Nick: T3sl41 is now known as T3sl4
08:36 * T3sl4 throws 1 at Halcyon to nibble on
08:53 * Halcyon gnaws
09:17 <T3sl4> ;)
09:35 * T3sl4 sips a canadian whisky on the rocks
10:11 <Halcyon> I'd love a drink but I'm driving to a mate's later so I have to wait
10:13 <Halcyon> *pouts*
10:39 * T3sl4 pours some in a doggie bag
43:17 <Halcyon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuSyjjK1HsM
43:22 <Halcyon> Mmmm I love Katsu
55:49 * Ampera throws a spork at Halcyon
14:40 <DHess_US> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WXRN1thFr8
04:20 Join: Ysjoelfir ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
04:47 <Ysjoelfir> Hi guys
05:57 <steve30> morning
14:50 Nick: Ysjoelfir is now known as Ysjoelfir^AFK
19:55 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: FINALLY a useful "connected" @internetofshit device! $1000 for the stand at #CES2020 was totally worth it! This has HUGE disruptive potential! https://t.co/eF5cxC1GvI https://t.co/eF2iFZsd9m
34:42 Nick: Ysjoelfir^AFK is now known as Ysjoelfir
34:42 <Ysjoelfir> wtf is this shit
43:31 <Ampera> Ysjoelfir, what shit
43:53 <Ysjoelfir> What EEVBlog tweeted
43:57 <Ampera> oh
44:33 * Ampera stabs Halcyon with a rusty spork
47:05 <Ysjoelfir> Poor Halcyon, getting sporked all the time
51:38 <Ysjoelfir> Ampera, u got me thinking about getting an x86 tablet
51:55 <Ampera> Ysjoelfir, they have their downsides.
52:06 <Ampera> They are obviously hot with commonly paltry battery life.
52:23 <Ampera> They do have impressive power, particularly if you do not care about graphics.
52:59 <Ysjoelfir> Thats not a problem for my use case, having that thing with me on vacation and while being in bed with the charger right next to me :)
54:29 <Ampera> I'd imagine you intend to use Windows on yours, which is fine, but Linux also has other complications.
57:42 <Ysjoelfir> I actually thought about using it with linux to play around with it and get used to that
01:35 <Ampera> Ysjoelfir, I'd keep your first real Linux experiences to normal PC hardware.
02:03 <Ampera> At least in my experience, tablet Linux is definitely possible, but there are a lot of complications that make it unecessarily difficult to a newcomer.
02:09 <Ysjoelfir> are there that many problems using it on a tablet?
02:12 <Ysjoelfir> ah, to bad
02:35 <Ampera> This might be the 10th iteration of this system I am running on here, and I'm still not happy with how it's ended up.
02:52 <Ampera> That being said, it still has most of the benefits of Linux over Windows, and runs quite well.
03:26 <Ysjoelfir> yikes. and you have definitely more knowledge about that than I have. sad, would have been a nice thing since it would "force" me to get used to it if i want my evening routine to go on as I'm used to :D
03:34 <Ampera> There are two core problems. While full multitouch is supported on X, not that much software is written to utilize it, so it's mostly mouse emulation.
03:59 <Ampera> Well if that's what it'll take, it might still not be a bad idea, just expect more tinkering than you'd otherwise have.
04:38 <Ampera> The other core problem is my tablet has a 2160x1440 display, which is insanely high DPI, which X applications handle about as well as the Titanic handled into an iceberg.
05:00 <Ampera> I've simply solved this by running everything at a lower resolution, which is a crude, but effective solution.
05:54 <Ampera> Another issue is when streaming video, you'll want hardware accelerated video decode to save battery life, and to keep the machine from thermal throttling, but this only works on special versions of chromium
06:33 <Ampera> If you do go into it, I can show you all of the tricks, hacks, and tinkers I've done to my machine to make it the most usable.
08:27 <Ysjoelfir> Hmm... I have to think about that. Most of all I need to save up some money first, but I like the idea
08:50 <Ampera> I am using a Surface Pro 3, which I bought used with keyboard cover and charger for 425 USD
10:16 <Ampera> Another suggestion is avoid anything with an Intel Atom. If you can get something with a dedicated GPU, even better.
16:20 <Ysjoelfir> yikes, I used those atoms once for small NAS' i built. those are damn slow... but efficient.
16:37 <Ysjoelfir> if i get one I would definitely get an other cpu
16:52 <Ampera> This one has an i5-4300U
17:13 <Ampera> If you do want a really nice one, I'd actually suggest waiting for the new 15W Ryzen 4000 chip to come out
17:23 <Ampera> which should be a pretty impressive peice of kit for a tablet form factor.
17:38 <Ysjoelfir> THAT sounds intriguing. I am a little AMD fanboy, so...
24:32 <Ampera> Ysjoelfir, must be a German thing, so is my dad. :P
27:35 <Ysjoelfir> I don't know. Many of my work colleages are like "AMD? meh.", but I personally used them since the Athlon XP, even to the "bad" times before ZEN. Never used an Intel besides from some machines to tinker with... Asus P2B-DS + 2 Slot 1-370 Adapters + Dual Tualatin...
28:13 <Ampera> Then what do you use?
30:07 <Ysjoelfir> Right now? Ah, that may have been a bit wonky written by me. I meant I used AMD, even though they were rather bad before ZEN. Right now I use a Ryzen 7 3800X
30:57 <Ampera> Ah. I had used AMD up until my i7-4790k, and my dad still uses them.
31:14 <Ampera> Before my i7 I had an A10-6800K
31:20 <Ysjoelfir> And here at work... I think it's an I7 5xxx, don't know. It works. And since I can't decide what I get,... :D
31:32 <Ysjoelfir> I had the exact same A10 before the Ryzen
31:37 <Ampera> eyyy
31:45 <Ampera> It was cheap and it computed
31:57 <Ysjoelfir> absolutely
32:12 <Ampera> Now I'm looking for high brass Ryzen 9 for my next build.
32:23 <Ysjoelfir> why not a threadripper?
34:01 <Ampera> Ysjoelfir, because the board cost is 3-4x what I'd spend otherwise
34:28 <Ysjoelfir> Thats exactly the reason why I decided against the threadripper... :)
34:30 <Ampera> and that's proper thousands for just the CPU, instead of 750 for Ryzen 9
34:49 <Ampera> If I had infinite money, I would definitely go TR
36:30 <Ampera> and at the end of the day, a 3950X is over 4 times as fast as what I have now.
36:53 <Ysjoelfir> I remember the good old time... I was in my... what is it called... job training thing. Dualcore wasn't a thing back then and Intel was proud of their heating machines.
36:57 <Ysjoelfir> I saved money up and as AMD brought out the socket 939 and 940 I got myself a dual Socket 940 board with dual dualcore opterons. I had a quadcore system before dualcore was available for the consumer market. damn was I proud :D
37:32 <Ampera> nice
37:38 <Ysjoelfir> the 16GB RAM (ECC Registered DDR1...) alone was around 1k€
37:47 <Ampera> holy shit
37:58 <Ampera> you run W2K server on that thing?
37:59 <Ysjoelfir> and it got ripped to pieces by those damn revoltec ram heatspreaders :'(
38:14 <Ysjoelfir> 2k3 server with some tweaks IIRC
38:19 <Ampera> ah
38:35 <Ampera> was it PAE or AMD64?
40:24 <Ysjoelfir> PAE. I tried 64 Bit but that was not realy a thing. WinXP64 was the only option I guess, So PAE it was
41:02 <Ampera> Yeah I was about to say Windows has always been massive scrooges about PAE
41:09 <Ampera> er Microsoft
42:13 <Ysjoelfir> But in the end it worked. :) And since I was into 3D modeling back then it was a veeeery nice system
42:23 <Ysjoelfir> so cool to see Cinema 4D render with 4 threads....
43:32 <Ampera> I have a couple dual CPU servers from the time
43:46 <Ampera> dual Opteron IBM eServer and dual Xeon IBM eServer
44:21 <Ampera> the dual Xeon machine is easily my whackiest PC, with true IA-32 PAE up to 12GB, an Ultra320 controller, and, no joke, hot swap PCI-X
45:05 <Ysjoelfir> My NAS is a dual Xeon.... E.....4...dont know. Dual Quadcores with "low" power consumption. Still trying to get the WOL to work...
45:12 <Ysjoelfir> U320 has that thing, too.
45:44 <Ampera> My server, which I am ssh'd into and using weechat on right now, is a Xeon X5650 6c/12t machine
46:02 <Ampera> Westmere EP with 6.5TB of storage and 18GB of RAM, I put it together for no more than 200USD
47:08 <Ampera> I have a lot of neat PCs in my collection, and am always looking to add more :)
47:40 <Ysjoelfir> mine was free :X Got thrown out when the company moved and i grabbed it from the trash
47:47 <Ysjoelfir> Added... wait
48:00 <Ysjoelfir> 15 TB HDDs, and boom. works.
48:14 <Ampera> 15 1TB HDDs?
48:22 <Ysjoelfir> no
48:27 <Ysjoelfir> it only has 12 slots :D
48:42 <Ampera> well when you said 15 TB HDDs that means 15 1TB HDDs :P
48:45 <Ampera> so just 15TB of storage?
50:22 <Ysjoelfir> 15TB is the capacity in RAID configuration. physical discs are.... 4x 3TB (RAID5), 4x 2TB (RAID5) and 4 hot spares
51:19 <Ampera> once you start getting past RAID 1 and 0, my head starts to hurt
51:44 <Ampera> I have my stuff on ZFS, in two pools, one single drive pool for backups, and one 2x2TB pool in RAID0 style ZFS
52:29 <Ysjoelfir> I was never a friend of those ZFS things, mostly because I didn't take the time to realy read into it I guess
53:00 <Ampera> It's really not complicated
53:12 <Ampera> The server runs stock FreeBSD 12.1
53:47 <Ampera> I have a separate telephone exchange server which also runs FreeBSD 12.1, and handles phone calling within the house
53:53 <K> hello
54:03 <Ampera> hello darKness my old friend
54:22 <Ysjoelfir> thats cool :)
54:24 <Ysjoelfir> Hi K
54:42 <K> !
55:55 <K> > 20:32:05 Ysjoelfir | Is K still here?
56:08 <Ysjoelfir> Thats quite some time back :D
56:21 <Ysjoelfir> I took photos of the ancienc electrics book I talked about
56:28 <K> ah
56:32 <K> do show!
56:45 <Ampera> anyways I'll do a sleepy
56:49 <Ampera> good night
56:52 <K> good night
56:53 <Ysjoelfir> gn8 ampera :)
57:04 <Ysjoelfir> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17bptOw_UxtxRG4JNZ2k28GgZ1eISak1t?usp=sharing
57:47 <Ysjoelfir> take a look. the title translates to "The Electricity, how its made and what to use it for in industry and companies"
58:22 <Ysjoelfir> Its from 1893. Leatherbound. It even has foldout images, photographs, schematics and drawings
00:09 <K> looks nice
00:17 <K> pictures for ants though
00:22 <Ysjoelfir> it is absolutely beautiful
00:25 <Ysjoelfir> huh?
00:42 <Ysjoelfir> damn, I uploaded the small versions >_> wait
01:09 <K> https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/750/318/1c6.gif
04:30 <K> "Arthur Wilke" does sound like a Brittish chap to me
04:59 <K> or maybe american
06:33 <K> but i could be wrong
06:40 <K> https://books.google.lv/books?id=78_ICgAAQBAJ&pg=PA213&lpg=PA213&dq=%22Arthur+wilke%22+electricity&source=bl&ots=QY2QHJuQNu&sig=ACfU3U1Ev-tntIip96iuuhVHd5UnubJKFw&hl=lv&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi8_Kub5PjmAhWRw4sKHQPzC38Q6AEwAXoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Arthur%20wilke%22%20electricity&f=false
08:24 <Ysjoelfir> Arthut was a popular name back than in germany :)
08:43 <Ysjoelfir> now the big versions are uploading
08:57 <Ysjoelfir> and done
31:43 <K> nice
32:25 <K> though my old timey typeset reading is not so good
39:24 <Ysjoelfir> Yeah. But I think it is so beautiful :)
08:14 <Ysjoelfir> Lol. The chat server at worked just glitched and restarted. Now I'm +o instead of the admins xD
26:37 Quit: ThunderSqueak ([email protected]) Quit: Leaving
14:36 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: The 12% reflectivity of the moon is still amazingly bright. https://t.co/V8EpeC9ncB
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