#eevblog - 2020-10-28 - AustNet Archive Project

// #eevblog — 2020-10-28

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« 2020-10-27 2020-10-29 »
14:53 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: I still wonder if Trump will pardon Snowden and Assange before the election. But it would have happened already if it was going to happen, so I'm guessing not...
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32:24 <Ysjoelfir> re
32:49 <Ysjoelfir> "lets go quickly to the post office in my lunch break!"
32:52 <Ysjoelfir> that was 12:30
32:57 <Ysjoelfir> now its 14:32
33:01 <Ysjoelfir> I am pissed
35:46 <Ysjoelfir> hsn!
35:48 <Ysjoelfir> De-Piss me!
36:01 <Ysjoelfir> by saying that my thingy is great! *me unwraps the package*
36:50 <steve30> The component cable for my camcorder arrived. Now I can watch its 1080i output :)
37:10 <Ysjoelfir> nice! What medium does it record onto?
37:41 <steve30> The camcorder is MiniDV/HDV, but the firewire port is broken so I'll have to transfer the video using the analogue component output.
38:08 <Ysjoelfir> cool. :)
39:06 <K> only the port is broken?
39:14 <K> cant you replace the socket?
43:46 <Ampera> whenever I've said that for shit like mini firewire ports, it never ends up as simple as it sounds
46:16 <steve30> i think its actually the chip that is bad. I checked the actual connector and it seemed OK.
46:41 <Ampera> that's a shame, but component captured will probably still be fine
57:02 * T3sl4 pounces steve30 with a hug
58:42 <T3sl4> hsn: i did a little proto board lately that the problem was not so much ripping out copper, as the burr left on the opening. a knife cleaned that up easily, though i wouldn't recommend manual cleanup in production
59:10 <T3sl4> that's why they charge extra, they have to go slower or use a sharper tool or different tool path
02:04 <Ysjoelfir> Or even buy a new tool that hasen't already cut 50.000 PCBs ;P
02:39 <T3sl4> well yes, that would be another way to sharpen one :P
03:04 <Ysjoelfir> Indeed^^ T3sl4, let me show off with my cute little PCB thing. also hsn, electrohead, steve30 and everyone else who is interested :) https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1bi9pf4iq1XJOpz4UBQdY_4CZLOSmOi7v?usp=sharing I am very happy how it turned out, despite it having some errors (as is to be expected)
04:17 <T3sl4> tons of routing space on there!
06:56 <Ysjoelfir> lol^^
06:59 <steve30> yay a T3sl4 hug :)
08:01 <T3sl4> Ysjoelfir: i take it you were able to finish that without resorting to blind vias, or buried vias and extra layers?
08:36 <steve30> Ysjoelfir, looks nice, what does it do?
08:55 <Ysjoelfir> its 4 layers, power and two busses are internal. but besides that, just "standard" vias, no HDI
09:17 <steve30> Here's what I was doing with the camcorder yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3rVwzL5wes
09:51 <Ysjoelfir> steve30, its a product for a customer. basically a tracker that... tracks movements from people playing a game which I am not allowed to name because of NDAs. It will be implemented into a... sports device of some sort the player is wielding
10:25 <steve30> ah
10:30 <Ysjoelfir> the idea is that the trainer gets live data onto his smartphone and should be able to eg. analyze how the player moved and what can be made better
12:34 <hsn> Ysjoelfir, i think nike wanted to implement such thing on their shoes
12:52 <hsn> i shouldnt say .. nike ..
13:01 <hsn> but one of major companies i mean :D
13:32 <hsn> Ysjoelfir, also i just saw de-piss .. and i can say the board did the job allready ? :)
14:09 <hsn> the rail small pads .. are just to avoid "de coppering a lot" ?
14:10 * Ampera gives hsn a bowl of chicken and saffron rice
14:20 * hsn eats all
14:25 * hsn eats bowl
14:37 <hsn> im hunger
15:30 <T3sl4> bowling for Ampera
15:52 * Ampera knocks T3sl4 over and pins him to the grown
15:55 <Ampera> er, ground
16:55 <T3sl4> my pins!
18:09 <hsn> Ysjoelfir, how many pcbs ^ for how much ?
18:15 <DHess_US> <daniels> Thanks Colorado https://i.redd.it/pnct22ixqiv51.jpg I think you've got it covered now
19:47 <T3sl4> https://i.imgur.com/XNpTKSk.jpg
20:05 <Ysjoelfir> yeah hsn, the boards depissed me :P what do you mean with
20:05 <Ysjoelfir> [15:14:09] the rail small pads .. are just to avoid "de coppering a lot" ?
20:16 <Ysjoelfir> Also:
20:16 <Ysjoelfir> [15:18:09] <hsn> Ysjoelfir, how many pcbs ^ for how much ?
20:55 <Ysjoelfir> ^ 3 PCBs, manufactured and assembled, express delivery and high speed manufacturing, included parts, ~550$
20:56 <hsn> are just to avoid "de coppering a lot" ? << at the tooling rail there is feducial mark + lots of pads
21:11 <hsn> "without components" ^
21:12 <hsn> ?
21:15 <Ysjoelfir> I actually didn't look at that xD wait
21:18 <hsn> is this at china ?
21:28 <hsn> or germanistan
21:38 <hsn> oh without parts = ?
22:03 <Ysjoelfir> ah. yep, the fiducials are neccessary there, because I couldn't fit any on the PCBs. no idea why they did that checkerboard pattern with the pads though. T3sl4, I'm sure you know that?
22:13 <Ysjoelfir> the parts are.. ~30$ for each PCB hsn
22:21 <Ysjoelfir> most of the cost was one time setup cost
22:28 <Ysjoelfir> because... speed. you know
22:38 <Ysjoelfir> annoying customer being like "WE NEED TO HURRY UUUUUUUUP!!!!"
22:48 <T3sl4> it's call thieving
22:56 <T3sl4> keeps the copper density even, so the board doesn't pringle
23:20 <hsn> isnt thieving is one pad near last one in soic T3sl4 ?
23:26 <hsn> soic package
23:34 <hsn> for drag solder or somthing ?
23:35 <hsn> :D
24:11 <hsn> https://images.app.goo.gl/F6PhJjiQn3kzMTA98
24:21 <T3sl4> solder thieving sure
24:43 <hsn> https://pcbboardassembly.com/glossary/copper-thieving/
25:07 <hsn> ah ok thats solder .. this is plating
25:16 <hsn> right?
25:43 <T3sl4> right
25:46 <hsn> ty
26:06 <hsn> thank you^
26:41 <T3sl4> hm, i thought it was more for warpage than plating evenness, i guess that works too
31:23 <steve30> hmm, apparently my Component capture device is out for delivery today. That was quick.
33:15 Join: arch ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
33:48 <Ysjoelfir> nice, again learned something new :) thanks for explaining
37:22 <hsn> T3sl4, Ysjoelfir a better link https://pcbprime.com/pcb-tips/what-is-copper-thieving/
37:52 <hsn> Ysjoelfir, are just to avoid "de coppering a lot" ?
37:58 <hsn> i ment
37:59 <hsn> Reduce Cost Due To Excessive Etch
39:57 <hsn> de-coppering = etching .. xD im low
40:45 <Ysjoelfir> xD
40:51 <arch> if you synchronize two UC3843 together, and put a NOT gate for one of the outputs, technically you could drive a push pull or half bridge, right?
40:56 * Ampera flings a fried chorizo at Ysjoelfir 
41:29 <Ysjoelfir> I actually have a chorizo in the fridge, Ampera :P But that one is very nasty, I'm wondering what I'll be doing with it as I HATE throwing food in the trash.
41:40 <Ampera> I hate myself too
41:42 <Ampera> don't worry
41:46 <Ysjoelfir> it has HUGE chunks of pure fat in it and basically no taste :(
41:57 <Ampera> inb4 american joke
41:59 <Ysjoelfir> thats ok Ampera, we compensate that by loving you
42:13 <T3sl4> arch: no, you use a UCC3808
42:25 <Ampera> lies, fabrications, confladgerations
42:27 <T3sl4> Ysjoelfir: mmm, fat
42:40 <arch> ahh right, from your PSA i think. i need to save a copy of that image locally
42:51 <T3sl4> that just means you fry it and render it down, and add your own spices and veg and make a nice fry up
44:19 <Ysjoelfir> thats what I am planning, basically. I'll be making... erm... minced meat wrapped in... damn... two words I don't know :D one sec
44:46 <Ysjoelfir> well that was easy. Cabbage rolls is what I'm intending to make this evening^^
45:14 <arch> goddammit, $3.64 a pop for UCC3808. wtf...
45:16 <Ysjoelfir> I thought about cutting the chorizo into very small chunks and frying it until crisp, and add that to the minced meat
45:23 * Ampera flings a spiteful crow at T3sl4 
45:56 <arch> err $2.60, slightly better
46:03 <T3sl4> mmm, rolls
46:11 <Ampera> just started playing Mother 2 for the first time and I'm enjoying it
46:16 * T3sl4 trades Ysjoelfir future rolls for some sweet chili sauce
47:30 <hsn> https://www.hackster.io/news/the-newest-oddly-specific-object-the-sensor-ring-shows-off-the-latest-work-from-joey-castillo-dcff779e6ab7
47:32 <hsn> haaah
51:00 <arch> maybe i should start off with compensating a TL494 buck, and THEN move on to better controllers. but first i would have to make a transient load tool (or wire up a SPST switch to a beefy resistor)
51:17 <arch> but im currently working on two projects, so those have to be done first
52:37 <T3sl4> make a current mode one
52:52 <T3sl4> dont lie to yourself, they can be shelved forever
53:04 <arch> ok, so UC3843 buck?
54:47 <T3sl4> i mean 494 in CM
54:50 <T3sl4> but that too sure
55:09 <T3sl4> 3843 can buck if you add a bootstrap driver with some way to precharge it so it starts up
56:13 <hsn> ok i go ..bye everyone .. tschuss/ bis spater / auf "wierd.word" Ysjoelfir
56:47 <Ysjoelfir> xD
56:49 <hsn> auf wiedersehen i guess
56:59 <Ysjoelfir> yes
59:37 <arch> but the TL494 is not a current mode controller
00:08 <T3sl4> thats quitters talk
03:18 <arch> are you pulling my leg, or can the tl494 actually do current mode control
03:29 <arch> cuz i dont see anything online that mentions current mode TL494
03:42 <arch> maybe it's younger brother?
03:46 <arch> its*
03:49 <T3sl4> you dont see anything about 555 doing current mode control yet 555_Boost.pdf exists
04:21 * Ysjoelfir wonders if thats another one of the secred T3sl4 Scrolls of unlimited wisdom
04:43 <Ysjoelfir> *sacred
04:46 <arch> from what i understand, current mode control has two loops. you compare both the feedback voltage to the PWM ramp, as well as continuously monitor the current through the sense resistor. am i right so far?
05:22 <T3sl4> what feedback voltage
05:34 <arch> output's fb
05:45 <T3sl4> why would that get compared to ramp
06:23 <arch> maybe im confusing myself
08:16 <T3sl4> current loop to PWM comp
08:21 <T3sl4> voltage loop to current setpoint
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10:59 <arch> ok im looking at the 555 boost pdf. obviously, voltage feedback is from the output's voltage divider, R9 and R12. if that exceeds 2.5V, LM358 shuts off, sinking current thru 555 discharge pin, shortening the pulse width. current mode is added by Q3 which deactivates if current exceeds some value (changes depending on supply voltage)
11:40 <arch> and that lets threshold charge fast through R3, also shortening the pulse width
11:45 <arch> at least, thats what i understand
12:56 <arch> are you saying, for the Tl494, i should measure the current using one of the error amps for current mode control?
13:00 Quit: Guest|54650 ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
13:41 <T3sl4> have you read the 555 datasheet lately?
14:09 <arch> can't say that i have...looked too much into depth :D
15:26 <T3sl4> you missed the: 1. compensation network across the amp so it doesn't switch, it's a controller; 2. modest value resistor in the middle of that path (R5); 3. actual direct connection to pin 5
16:17 <T3sl4> but yes, you use a 494 err amp for current, that gets you avg current mode
16:36 <T3sl4> assuming you can sense the inductor current, might need a current sense amp or hall effect sensor to do that on a buck
17:58 <arch> https://www.arrow.com/en/reference-designs/typical-application-for-tl494-pulse-width-modulated-step-down-converter/606643c71cdc5e781fd5c0dc34f32860
18:04 <arch> can use a current sense resistor too
19:43 <arch> but TL494 is no longer at ground potential
19:55 <arch> and same for the output
20:14 <arch> that's annoying...
20:20 <T3sl4> that one just uses it as an oh-shit valve, there's no NFB from COMP to CS
20:45 <T3sl4> it's also after the filter cap
20:56 <T3sl4> so it intentionally avoids sensing inrush current
21:19 <T3sl4> with those things rearranged, and an opamp added to do voltage regulation, it works
22:04 <arch> so much to learn :D
23:14 <arch> 1mH inductor...it's gonna be large for significant current handling. they must be using some low as hell freq
24:47 <T3sl4> even so, still pretty well in CCM i think
27:00 <rust_collector> uuh.
27:04 <rust_collector> morning?
27:28 * T3sl4 waves an egg at rust_collector
27:48 <K> no u.
28:14 <rust_collector> so... jst h?
31:09 <Ysjoelfir> hi rusty
31:30 <rust_collector> hey-oo
32:28 <rust_collector> so, I hear you are boiling cabbage today....
33:01 <rust_collector> and something about 555s and 494 things.
33:21 <rust_collector> exciting day
34:16 * T3sl4 switches rust_collector rapidly a few times
34:22 <Ysjoelfir> no, not today. Thursday probably :)
34:32 <rust_collector> BOOOO!
34:40 * rust_collector pops a capacitor
35:52 * arch replaces rust_collector with ceramic capacitors
38:46 <T3sl4> rust is a kind of ceramic, that's a good idea
39:14 <K> rust - the material of the future!
40:01 <rust_collector> but it is too late now. I have all of it, HAHAHA! MINE MINE!!!
41:12 <rust_collector> makes sense that I collect something worthless, that will be worth a lot 13 years after I die
43:02 <T3sl4> hey, don't sell yourself short. if you get super ultra fat, your estate can sell the tonnes of rusty corpse as ore for a few bucks
48:39 <K> short tonnes
03:22 <T3sl4> short yo mouth young man
19:10 <K> :|
27:07 Quit: arch ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
31:33 Quit: clarkos ([email protected]) Quit: Quit
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45:17 <hsn> Arch this is live https://youtu.be/Gow8cdyuRlY
46:54 <hsn> Rusty .. good day to u ... Guten tag
47:33 <rust_collector> hoioo hsn
47:47 <hsn> Hallo
48:30 <hsn> So Ysjoelfir suggested duolingo that i ll try this weekend
48:42 <rust_collector> for german?
50:19 <hsn> German yes
50:28 <hsn> Its easy
50:38 <hsn> Coffee means caffee
50:50 <hsn> Milk means milch
50:58 <hsn> And ...und
51:50 <rust_collector> the thing that probably makes german difficult, is that they have a funny way to build sentences.
51:56 <hsn> Yu seech thez iz eezy i canch speech german guten ..
52:18 <rust_collector> like... the cat red is
52:37 <hsn> Every language has its grammer i guees
52:48 <hsn> Its like python to c
52:49 <rust_collector> I have not started on the grammar
52:52 <hsn> ;)
53:03 Join: arch ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
53:13 <hsn> [19:45] hsn: Arch this is live https://youtu.be/Gow8cdyuRlY
54:06 <hsn> So check my german journal rusty dont let me stop learning
54:24 <rust_collector> yur german journal
58:55 <rust_collector> hsn, http://swr-edge-2022-dus-lg-cdn.cast.addradio.de/swr/swr1/bw/mp3/128/stream.mp3?_art=dj0yJmlwPTc5LjE2MS4yMTIuNDgmaWQ9aWNzY3hsLXF4c2UzMmxsYiZ0PTE2MDM5MDQzMTkmcz03ODY2ZjI5YyMxNGQ2NjJkZDUxZDg5OGNhMTNjNjE2MzQ2Zjc2ZDUxYQ
00:55 <rust_collector> where do you have your german journal?
01:35 <hsn> I mean .. german learning
01:53 <hsn> I dont understand how news help ..
02:05 <rust_collector> listening to german could help
02:14 <hsn> I guess from tv it does?
02:25 <hsn> But not radio ?
02:31 <rust_collector> sure radio
02:43 <rust_collector> but you have to learn words on your own
02:49 <hsn> Yee
05:51 <rust_collector> well, don't ask me, I don't know german uch
06:55 <rust_collector> sure, watch tv, if you think that is your thing. I still think you have to learn a bunch of words first. And maybe figure out what german you want to learn
10:09 <rust_collector> butt. it is time to go to work. have fun
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51:30 <mxnuts> hey there. a question on oscilloscopes: i have a 100 MHz osci and want to capture a 133 MHz signal. the signal is constant, so i can repeat the capture N times. the captures are all undersampled and aliased. now it should be possible to combine the N captures to antialias the signal in software. any idea why this could NOT work? (google was no help
51:30 <mxnuts> )
52:47 <mxnuts> (assuming the trigger precision is not perfect, and all captures have a small time-offset)
11:38 <hsn> https://youtu.be/f6_svRNJYls ------ PCB Manufacturing - Important facts you should know
39:32 <T3sl4> mxnuts: not really, the AFE probably doesn't have the bandwidth and if it's not doing EQ sampling by itself in hardware you'll have a hard time reassembling random samples externally
43:10 <mxnuts> for my layman brain, is it cos i cannot control the trigger point with enough precision?
58:51 <Ysjoelfir> WTH did digikey fuck up here? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/digi-key-has-changed-and-it-is-not-very-good/msg3298798/#msg3298798
58:52 <EEVBlog> If you keep saying that, I'm gonna hold you upside down and shake you until all the electrons fall out, Ysjoelfir!
59:09 <Ysjoelfir> cool! I always have way to many of those
03:48 <T3sl4> mxnuts: both that, and because the signal may be filtered by the time it gets to the sampler
05:10 Join: Polesch ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
07:52 <hsn> gay count ++;
14:25 Quit: arch ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
24:22 <hsn> i love when i see coppice discusses with T3sl4
24:25 <hsn> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/capacitors-why-6-3v/
26:27 <mxnuts> T3sl4: thanks. i will give it a try (the hard way to find truth) .. just need a way to externally delay the trigger signal for 0 to 10 nanoseconds (1 cycle at 100 MHz) .. i even have a buffer chip here (74HC4050)
26:45 <T3sl4> use both channels, or external trigger if available?
40:10 <mxnuts> you mean both channels on the same signal? i have 2 channels + external trigger
42:29 <Ysjoelfir> I agree, hsn
44:24 <Ysjoelfir> I am listening to my amazon music suggested mix. erm.... I mean.... wth.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ATgyUydFEs
44:53 <hsn> :D
45:22 <hsn> sirkus kim
46:01 <hsn> when u listen music do u scroll up and down very fast with the music tone in altium pcb ?
46:02 <hsn> :D
57:43 <mxnuts> .. or just use a longer cable, to delay the signal on one channel. 5 ns x 3E8 m/s = 1.5 meter
02:11 <Ysjoelfir> sometimes :P
06:42 Quit: slo ([email protected]) Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat
08:07 Join: slo ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
11:37 <Ysjoelfir> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgGzAKP_HuM omfg, this is gorgeous :D
19:46 Quit: mxnuts ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
24:31 <Ysjoelfir> 455555555555555555555555666666666666435345455555555555555555555555555555554r5e4555555555555555555555555556
24:55 * Ysjoelfir droped a bit of his dinner onto the keyboard and was to lazy to delete that
25:11 * Ysjoelfir instead decided to let you also enjoy my misfortune
41:39 <electrohead> o/
45:48 <Ysjoelfir> hi mr. head
45:55 <electrohead> hey mate, how goes it?
56:59 <Ysjoelfir> quite ok
57:08 <Ysjoelfir> but I'm annoyed by my annoying customer xD
19:10 Topic Is: Official IRC channel of the EEVblog - www.eevblog.tv
19:10 Set By: (ChanOP) on: Fri Jan 24 20:18:35 2020
19:10 <Ysjoelfir> and hi whoever else might be there
19:10 <*buffextras> [email protected] is now known as Ampera1
19:10 <steve30> Error: Amperaserv on fire.
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