#eevblog - 2020-10-21 - AustNet Archive Project

// #eevblog — 2020-10-21

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00:17 <Ampera> why would you want to
01:20 <T3sl4> because that's how analysis works?
01:38 <Ampera> To get back on track, while income assistance is already a thing, and I don't believe is a bad idea, there is also the problem of poor education and knowing that people will spend that money properly.
02:03 <Ampera> There /are/ people who /will/ spend money improperly when given it for free, and while that's not a reason that nobody should have it, there I believe are potentially better ways to assist those sorts of people
02:14 <Ampera> which is why I say invest in public transport and local industry
02:37 <Ampera> as I believe many poorer regions of the US are poor as there is no local industry, and no way for poorer people to get to it if there was
03:33 <Ampera> Education is also an important investment that must be taken more seriously than it is, with funding and management especially poor in those poorer regions, which is why the poor tend to stay poor.
03:48 <T3sl4> right
04:39 <T3sl4> i think the biggest part that's missing though is this
05:03 <T3sl4> welfare has a huge stigma on it, and it's services you have to go out and get
05:18 <T3sl4> on the one end, a lot of people will just try and tough it out instead of getting it
05:50 <T3sl4> on the other end, you have conservatives shitting on it, demonizing it, calling them welfare queens and shit
06:35 <T3sl4> and amid all of that, you have other people clamoring for their slice of the pie, jealous of the have-nots getting more assitance than they are
07:29 <T3sl4> i suspect this is the biggest factor in favor of UBI over most other equivalent methods of welfare: everyone gets their cut, no one can say anyone isn't entitled to it, any more than they are
07:52 <Ampera> The issue is you could then project your same arguments against the altered tax bracket.
08:02 <Ampera> The outcome is the same, it's just the means are more complicated and wasteful
08:27 <T3sl4> people are stupid and angry and bicker about everything, and i suspect it is actually legitimately worth spending the extra money by just handing it out everywhere, to completely defeat those arguments
08:52 <T3sl4> people don't brag about their tax status, that's not a problem
09:03 <T3sl4> well, except for individual #1, but nevermind that
09:14 <Ampera> Actually people complain about their tax status quite a lot.
09:23 <Ampera> That's a particularly intense political topic.
09:50 <Ampera> and if people would complain about the disadvantaged getting handouts, they'd also complain about getting a higher tax bracket
09:57 <Ampera> there are people who do that right now
10:11 <T3sl4> it's the perennial "blah blah death and taxes amirite" thing, sure, but i've never had anyone brag to me that they paid some amount of it
11:42 <Ampera> I think stigma and bickering are a poor reason to make such an economically risky decision before trying more concrete examples of low income assistance, like making employment opportunities more plentiful and accessible
12:22 <Ampera> While I accept and can see the logic within your argument, I also believe there are a lot of considerable problems with the idea, and it just seems like a lazy way to poorly fix a serious problem nobody wants to deal with.
12:58 <T3sl4> a lazy solution for a lazy country, i like it
13:31 <Ampera> Furthermore, UBI is a very experimental and rarely, if ever, attempted concept, while public transportation, for example, is a very real, and very tangible thing that genuinely helps a lot of people in plenty of nations around the world.
14:05 <T3sl4> hot take: lets do all of them at once
14:10 <Ampera> It's also way cheaper than giving literally everyone money, and then throwing enough cash on the IRS fireplace to deal with the fallout.
14:57 <T3sl4> also, speaking of IRS, and education and such, we need to properly fund and equip our government departments so they can actually be effective
15:26 <T3sl4> IRS has a huge ROI if they're just funded a little more, almost all of that coming from back taxes and dodges by the wealthy
16:03 <T3sl4> so if we can just get our heads out of our asses and do a government, we can have all of these things, and a balanced budget to boot
17:02 <T3sl4> hm, i wonder if there's an economic / ROI argument that can be made about gov accountability offices, and transparency, foia and etc
17:20 <Ampera> The issue is giving government orgs more money != they become better. If you throw enough money at the problem you may eventually get results, but a very real issue is serious mismanagement and poor allocation of funds within departments.
17:24 <T3sl4> would imagine it's pretty substantial, even if a pretty broad range due to how nebulous such an argument might be
17:39 <T3sl4> exactly what i said ;)
17:45 <Ampera> and that's what UBI sounds like to me too, just throwing enough money at the problem until it goes away
18:05 <Ampera> when in reality we're all talking about abstract representations of real world assets and resources
18:26 <Ampera> and throwing more money around doesn't necessarily equate to throwing more resources around
18:39 <T3sl4> i think the point they're after, is the UBI largely solves all of the problems you've listed, without having to make complicated arrangements for those services by themselves
19:15 <T3sl4> probably not the best solution, but it covers an amazing amount of ground without having to actually dig into every little thing
19:18 <Ampera> I just can't see that it does, I still think there is a lot to go wrong, and very little to go right.
19:35 <Ampera> It seems like a miracle solution that's easy to understand and implement, but very hard to clean up when it all blows up.
19:49 <T3sl4> what blows up?
20:29 <Ampera> Not to throw the C word around, but this is not that far off from solutions put forth by various communist entities in the past, and that extreme overdistribution of wealth just didn't equate to economic prosperity or alleviation of poverty.
20:44 <Ampera> UBI
21:00 <T3sl4> CINOs you mean? :P
21:05 <Ampera> CINOs?
21:13 <T3sl4> in-name-only
21:26 <Ampera> ?
21:44 <T3sl4> not really, but more to the point, they're authoritarian, power will ALWAYS accumulate
21:52 <Ampera> That is true
21:55 <T3sl4> no matter what economic system it's under
22:37 <T3sl4> there is a deeper relationship here, and that is that greater freedom and democracy correlates with greater equality, economic opportunity, political and other power, etc.
23:08 <Ampera> Freedom is a word people define through their own beliefs.
23:10 <T3sl4> authoritarians don't care if they're red or blue, they just want power, and they'll let you fight to the death over your chance to earn their scraps of it
23:47 <T3sl4> alright, to be specific i mean freedom in the liberal sense, freedom of movement, freedom of economic opportunity, etc
23:48 <Ampera> Some people would say ancap is freedom, others would say China's nanny state is freeing from danger
24:14 <Ampera> but I get your argument, it's just that mine is about economics, not politics
24:16 <T3sl4> heh, neither of which is true, but because neither claim is fully fleshed out
24:42 <Ampera> saying that overly redistributing money does not necessarily redistribute wealth
25:23 <T3sl4> (ancaps assume that power doesn't accumulate, but it does; china's nanny state, isn't much of one as far as i know, since they're more capitalist these days, but i suppose going back a bit in history, if you weren't an affected minority and weren't critical of the govt, that might be true)
26:18 <Ampera> China's nanny state is based on supervision, authoritarianism, and minimal personal freedom
26:24 <T3sl4> wait, who's talking about "overly redistributing"?
26:32 <Ampera> I am, UBI is overly redistributing money.
26:39 <Ampera> no matter how you get it
26:40 <T3sl4> over in what sense
26:51 <Ampera> over = more than what should be done
26:56 <T3sl4> what should be done
27:00 <Ampera> not UBI
27:09 <T3sl4> based on?
27:11 <Ampera> my opinion?
27:31 <T3sl4> well, opinions don't count, so that's fine ;)
27:36 <Ampera> well what do you think we're debating here?
27:54 <Ampera> what we think should be economic policy in the United States
28:03 <Ampera> both of us are debating opinions
28:23 <T3sl4> i can't speak for you, but i've been debating a position, not an opinion
28:34 <Ampera> Positions are opinions.
28:45 <T3sl4> no?
28:49 <Ampera> Yeah?
28:59 <Ampera> They're not facts, besides the fact of it being those who hold that position's opinion
29:15 <T3sl4> they're not facts, they're suppositions, or even hypotheses
29:43 <Ampera> So what you are saying is you do not necessarily believe in what you're supposing, and that this conversation is purely hypothetical from your perspective?
29:57 <Ampera> As in, you are what if, not what you think it should be
31:03 <T3sl4> debate is one of many vehicles we can use to change our opinions
31:35 <Ampera> So this is your opinion?
32:08 <T3sl4> will you be disappointed if i do not necessarily believe in the position i've been taking?
32:40 <Ampera> I would be particularly excited and intrigued.
32:51 <Ampera> as I thought you took these debates personally
33:10 <Ampera> and the ability to debate what one does not believe in is the mark of a skilled debater
33:47 <T3sl4> i take it personally when someone has an especially vacuous and incomplete, or outright malicious, system of beliefs
34:58 <Ampera> No offense, but that's not a great thing to do in a debate, as that's the fastest way to lose.
35:16 <T3sl4> indeed, it's the worst way to loose as well
35:36 <Ampera> I've dealt with people who have particularly shit ideas of how things should be, but I try very very hard not to take it as reason to see people as lesser or terrible.
35:42 <T3sl4> falling for a faithless debator who lulls you in with a sense of reason, but refuses to take a position, or accept obvious connections
35:46 <Ampera> There are very few ideas that I believe are truly outright malicious.
36:19 <T3sl4> my personal opinion on this subject is, i'm in favor of anything which restores the balance of power to the people, and after talking about it today i think i'm slightly more in favor of UBI
36:30 <T3sl4> but anything will do, social programs, infrastructure etc
36:56 <Ampera> I think UBI has a method to its madness, but is something I would only consider trying if absolutely no other option is viable, and I do not believe we are at such a point
39:05 <T3sl4> heh, it would be interesting if one could get ancaps to agree that, the best way to have a capitalism, is to have a minimal amount of government to administer a UBI or something like that, expressly so that everyone has some money to capitalism with
39:32 <Ampera> Well it was my understanding that ancap meant anarchy
39:37 <Ampera> as in null government
39:44 <T3sl4> if that's not such a radical idea for them, then it could well be a unifying lib left/right method
39:59 <T3sl4> not quite. i phrased that in the anarchist way
40:20 <T3sl4> there are inevitably collective things they'll have to agree on, national defense for example
40:28 <coppice> Ampera: what's wrong with a cold meat pie? a pork pie is basically full of ham, and who warms up their ham?
40:37 <Ampera> coppice, I do.
40:43 <Ampera> I find true ancap particularly interesting, not as a genuine method of existence, but as a thought experiment.
40:48 <rust_collector> coppice, most of the non-brits, I think?
40:55 <T3sl4> anarchist is not complete anarchy, but the minimal amount that can be agreed upon via free and democratic process
40:59 <Ampera> I'll eat cold cuts, but that's also not a pie.
41:35 <Ampera> however toasted ham sandwiches are particularly nice
41:42 <T3sl4> real, non-edgelord anarchists understand the tragedy of the commons, etc
41:49 <coppice> rust_collector: ham seems to exist in most cultures, apart from Hindu, Muslim and Jewish, and wherever I have eaten it, i was eaten cold
42:00 <Ampera> coppice, even christmas ham?
42:03 * T3sl4 ham and cheeses Ampera on rye
42:05 <coppice> yes
42:08 <Ampera> what
42:15 <Ampera> pardon me, I say again, what
42:15 <rust_collector> blæh
42:33 <T3sl4> ye olde buh, rust_collector?
42:44 <rust_collector> I am wondering if you just hang with a special kind of people
42:57 <T3sl4> you're all special
43:08 <Ampera> I disagree, I'm as mundane as a brick
43:32 <rust_collector> T3sl4, you would say bluEAAaaaaarggh, I think. we just shorten it to blæ
43:33 <T3sl4> Ampera, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9bk2MrMGaA
43:35 <coppice> Ampera: you know mundane does not mean thick, right?
43:44 <Ampera> coppice, mundane means common
43:49 <Ampera> nothing special, nothing unique
44:18 <Ampera> bricks aren't particularly special or unique, they're just blocks of hardened clay or stone
44:28 <coppice> isn't the expression "thick as a brick" used in the US?
44:48 <Ampera> I suppose, but I wasn't referencing any such expression
44:52 <T3sl4> though a brick isn't as thick as a block of stone, say
44:53 <Ampera> I was literally saying I am as mundane as a brick
45:51 <T3sl4> but ironically, a brick is thicker than a cinderblock!
46:28 * Ampera compresses T3sl4 into a block, bores square holes through him to create a cinder block
46:33 <rust_collector> that is why I like LECA™
46:40 <T3sl4> mundane, and boring too
46:43 * Ampera screams hysterically at the unicode
46:56 <T3sl4> (TM)
47:00 <Ampera> better
47:04 <rust_collector> ¢ΠŊ°»²
47:22 <Ampera> Actually I think those may be present within codepage 439
47:32 <Ampera> 437
47:37 <rust_collector> I wonder if I can make Ampera oscillate
47:55 <T3sl4> the nyancat-N i don't think is, but the rest i think so
48:10 <Ampera> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
48:25 <rust_collector> ²°™Œº§ª
48:45 <Ampera> 🕴️🕴️🕴️🕴️🕴️
49:04 <T3sl4> all in all Ampera's just a course of bricks in the wall
49:12 <rust_collector> I should buy some standards, and change the page numbers
50:03 <T3sl4> leave a page intentionally blank
50:06 <T3sl4> WITHOUT LABELING IT AS SUCH!
50:08 <T3sl4> mwahahahaha
50:16 <Ampera> 
51:19 <rust_collector> a page? there will be plenty of those
51:54 <T3sl4> oh i can imagine
53:23 <rust_collector> ouch
58:57 <K> i swears if yous mess up my tmux with fucking emojis again, imma be so mad.
59:39 <rust_collector> oh no!
00:46 <T3sl4> not KO2 D:
04:00 <rust_collector> tmux...
06:33 <T3sl4> on a related note, https://imgur.com/gallery/u2YT7Tc
07:21 <rust_collector> hmm, I want to paste some stuff here, just because
07:41 <rust_collector> so, T3sl4... is that guys name potassium?
07:52 <T3sl4> yes
07:59 <rust_collector> oh
08:26 <T3sl4> the joke wouldn't work otherwise
08:42 <rust_collector> right
09:02 <rust_collector> I guess he looks a bit romanian...
09:04 <T3sl4> everyone knows jokes are only funny when they're grammatically correct
10:59 <T3sl4> that's why everyone's always groaning at coppice, his puns don't make no scents
12:20 <rust_collector> I think the bot should convert something I say into ascii art, and print it here
12:41 <T3sl4> EEVBlog: kiss my ASCII
20:21 <coppice> T3sl4: I want my puns to make cents
21:31 <T3sl4> i have the perfect image for that too https://i.imgur.com/AfksGDA.mp4
22:59 <K> pls no groin on me
23:49 * T3sl4 bathes K in ligroin (petroleum ether)
23:49 <Ampera> rust_collector, I really don't want to make the bot start spamming blocks
23:54 <Ampera> otherwise chat will just be a nightmare
25:15 <T3sl4> instead of the usual daymare
25:26 <Ampera> T3sl4, it's always night if you're blind
26:28 <T3sl4> blind knights don't make good riders
26:37 * Ampera rides T3sl4 
26:48 <T3sl4> owo
27:01 <Ampera> owo
27:17 <T3sl4> uwu
27:25 <Ampera> uwu
28:24 <rust_collector> well, stop it from spamming us with shitty twitter notifications? we can post enough crap to keep this thing looking busy
28:39 <Ampera> well that's half the point of the bot
28:55 <T3sl4> shrug, i click them from time to time
29:13 <rust_collector> yes, but it that half a good point?
29:29 <rust_collector> if I cared, I would be on twitter
29:51 <T3sl4> you can block it :P
29:52 <Ampera> If I could more easily have an ignore function I would implement it
30:07 <Ampera> I wonder if you could selectively block messages
30:14 <rust_collector> nah, I am just being difficult. I just want to post large blocks of text from time to time
30:15 <Ampera> like block everything starting with "New EEVBlog Tweet"
30:15 <EEVBlog> 42.
30:23 <rust_collector> heh
30:28 * Ampera pets the EEVBot
30:35 <rust_collector> anything 42. gets blocked
32:16 <T3sl4> that has a 42.7% chance of success
38:48 <rust_collector> that is more than my usual half of 50%
40:34 <steve30> hello
41:02 <rust_collector> hi mr steve
54:55 * T3sl4 gives steve30 a 42.7% chance of hug
55:18 <steve30> hmm
55:35 * steve30 meows
04:51 <steve30> hmm, no hug :(
29:17 * rust_collector hugs steve30 twice
50:24 Join: arch ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
58:49 Join: Guest|10511 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
00:17 Quit: Guest|10511 ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
04:15 <rust_collector> https://imgur.com/a/uMD64MA
09:18 <rust_collector> oh come on, do I have to flood this place with tmux destroying things?
25:25 Quit: arch ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
28:55 <T3sl4> hmm, imgur is dead atm
29:18 <T3sl4> guess you'll have to tmuxocalypse
29:21 <rust_collector> that is ok
31:23 <rust_collector> o0O0o that link was only for especially intereted germans anyway
31:33 <rust_collector> ©
33:22 Join: Polesch ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
47:04 <hsn> Its time
47:28 <rust_collector> TIME!
48:22 <T3sl4> is it really, time, mr. freeman?
49:33 <hsn> https://photos.app.goo.gl/ALZxqc9zhmzVzxeU7
49:36 <hsn> Yes
50:26 <rust_collector> I have to work on some kind of vertical grilling system....
50:40 <Ampera> t h y m e
51:13 <rust_collector> have a good TIME hsn
52:00 Join: arch ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
56:22 <DHess_US> Just got email saying the computer case I ordered was lost or destroyed in shipping.
56:47 <Ampera> DHess_US, that's a case of rotten luck
57:22 <coppice> people can't even box up a box properly?
58:06 <rust_collector> making a big wooden crate seems a bit over the top for a computer case
01:20 <DHess_US> Ampera, I think it was a scam with Amazon Marketplace selling selling stuff they don't have.
01:31 <DHess_US> So they drop ship but don't keep track of what is available.
01:48 <DHess_US> Which is a problem because I now have no source for the case unless I buy from overseas, which obviously isn't going to work this year.
02:53 <Ysjoelfir> hi
03:36 <rust_collector> hey-ooo
07:40 <Ampera> DHess_US, what was the case
07:59 <Ampera> and surely there's /some/ case available you can use
08:02 <Ampera> it can't be that special
09:31 <Ampera> haha, so I'm doing picture-by-picture on my ultrawide with my work laptop
09:47 <Ampera> I have one output going into the USB-C of the monitor, and another into an HDMI capture card, so I can alt-tab back and forth between my desktop
10:04 <Ampera> the USB-C is running at 144hz, while the capture card is 60hz with a few ms of delay because of processing
10:11 <Ampera> the difference is hilarious
10:25 <DHess_US> Ampera, https://www.fractal-design.com/products/cases/define/define-xl-r2/black-pearl/
10:48 <Ampera> Fractal Design has nice cases, but surely you can find a different case
10:49 <DHess_US> Might settle for this but has only 2 external bays and costs more, https://www.fractal-design.com/products/cases/define/define-7-xl/black/
11:00 <DHess_US> Great, link an alternative.
11:08 <Ampera> What are your requirements
11:32 <DHess_US> 8+ internal 3.5" bays, filtered positive air flow, external bays.
12:06 <DHess_US> WEll, the 3.5" don't have to be internal. They could be hot swap. But that gets pricy fast.
12:13 <arch> is there like a DIY scoring machine for cutting copperclad PCBs?
12:16 <Ampera> What is your price range
12:26 <arch> ive been using a metal ruler and c clamps
12:26 <DHess_US> The cases I linked are just over $200
12:37 <arch> and then using a blade tool
12:43 <Ampera> does this link keep the filters I've set? https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007583%20600473937%20600473938%20600473940%20600473941%20600473942%20600030546%20600030547
12:52 <Ampera> er,
12:55 <Ampera> one sec that's done wrong
13:38 <Ampera> if you can deal with it being a server case, this is available https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16811163317?&quicklink=true
13:39 <rust_collector> arch, the pcb seller guy up here use regular sheetmetal shears
13:49 <arch> ahh ok
13:57 <arch> but those are expensive af tho
14:23 <coppice> don't sheet metal shears break up the epoxy?
14:37 <rust_collector> it seems to do ok, actually
14:49 <Ampera> https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007583%20600030546%20600030547%20600030565%20600030566%20600030551
14:59 <Ampera> These are options if you can deal with 2 5.25 bays
15:14 <Ampera> (though, as you showed, so is the fractal design case, some of these are cheaper though)
15:16 <Ysjoelfir> I like to use metal shears for PCBs. works great
16:23 <rust_collector> arch, you can make a small cutting tool, and get a steam hammer for less than scrap price. that would work well
16:34 <DHess_US> Ampera, I'll check them. I looked at PHantex before.
16:50 <Ampera> DHess_US, the phantex aren't right, I accidentally put in 2.5" bays instead of 3.5"
16:57 <Ampera> so unless you intend to use laptop drives or SSDs, those won't work
17:26 <DHess_US> Well, that explains why I dont' remember finding anything useful from them.
17:50 <Ampera> yeah those have 6 3.5" bays seemingly
18:29 <arch> rust_collector, this is what i use for scoring. i clamp the PCB with c-clamps with a steel ruler, then score using the stanley knife: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/a/1158
18:38 <rust_collector> can you find 2 dirt cheap ones, who have half of the specs you want?
18:51 <Ampera> well presumably he doesn't want a completely ugly solution
19:00 <Ampera> otherwise he wouldn't be looking for fractal design
19:20 <DHess_US> rust_collector, I actually tried that but couldn't find any which would bolt together well.
19:21 <rust_collector> Ok, I dunno? I am not french
19:24 <Ampera> That being said, if you can stick your 5.25" drives in a second tower, that would work. It's what I did, my case has no 5.25 bays
19:28 <rust_collector> ok
19:43 <Ampera> (I mean not bolted together, as part of another system entirely)
19:45 <DHess_US> Thermaltake has something but it would be a lot mroe expensive.
20:03 <Ampera> Supermicro has some really nice cases, but they're start in the 350$ range
20:07 <DHess_US> Sort of wanted it all in one case this time to keep dirty out.
20:13 <Ampera> https://www.newegg.com/black-supermicro-cse-743t-500b/p/N82E16811152241?&quicklink=true
20:26 <Ampera> 150 dollars above the mark, but you do get hotswap bays
20:36 <DHess_US> And the availability of the Supermicro and Chenbro cases is very poor. You can buy the cases but not the drive cages.
20:48 <Ampera> Really?
20:54 <Ampera> You buy a brand new case and don't get the cages?
21:05 <DHess_US> Usually, because there are different configurations.
21:10 <DHess_US> SATA, SAS, etc.
21:41 <DHess_US> I couldn't find anybody who sold the Supermicro or Chenbro stuff and had them in stock.
21:51 <rust_collector> Ysjoelfir, https://imgur.com/a/uMD64MA go find that in your book
21:51 <Ampera> Newegg has it in stock
21:58 <Ampera> or rather vendors on newegg
21:59 <Ampera> https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100008044%20600006510%20600006516%20600006511%20600006517%20600006512%20600006518%20600006513%20600010483%20600010481%20600006515&Order=1
22:05 <DHess_US> Your link, "Sold and shipped by: IPC Store"
22:12 <Ampera> yeah vendors on newegg
22:19 <DHess_US> Which is fancy for saying, not in stock.
22:19 <Ampera> actually no, third one in the list
22:21 <Ampera> shipped by newegg
22:27 <Ampera> sold too
22:32 <Ampera> https://www.newegg.com/black-supermicro-cse-743tq-865b-sq/p/N82E16811152117
22:51 <Ampera> Comes with a PSU too, though I'm not sure how great supermicro supplies are
23:01 <Ampera> they don't tend to fuck around too much, so they might be decent
24:25 <Ampera> What's confusing me is that it's listed as having 2 5.25 bays but seems to have 3
24:59 <DHess_US> Top one has power switch and stuff.
24:59 <Ampera> https://www.newegg.com/chenbro-sr10569-c0-black/p/1N8-000F-00004?&quicklink=true
25:08 <Ampera> This chenbro is 100 bucks and is also sold+shipped by newegg
25:20 <DHess_US> Bottom one has external 3.5"
25:30 <Ampera> Doesn't look particularly brilliant, but if it just needs to be a case
25:35 <Ampera> DHess_US, yeah but it looks like that plate should come out
25:47 <Ampera> only issue is they don't have any pictures inside the case, so I don't know if there's mounting holes there
26:13 <DHess_US> The chenbro either doens't have enough internal spots or the cages aren't available. I basically have two of the predecosor to that one.
26:15 <Ampera> The one sold by IPC Store is a similar model and does advertise 3
26:38 Join: Nothing\ ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
26:41 <Nothing\> dammit
26:51 <Ysjoelfir> what is that, rusty?
26:53 <Ampera> er, for some reason newegg plopped that one in and it only has hybrid bays
26:53 <Ampera> oh well
27:01 <Nothing\> here i was thinking i was hot shit with my nvidia gtx1660 ti
27:04 <rust_collector> Ysjoelfir, sodd
27:08 <Ampera> but yeah I am seeing your conundrum
27:16 <Ampera> Nothing\, oh nice I have the same card
27:28 <Nothing\> now i just find out, nvidia's releasing their gtx 30 series of cards next week
27:35 <Ampera> the 30 series is already out
27:38 <Nothing\> Ampera, it's a really good card
27:40 <Ampera> nobody can get any of them
27:42 <Ampera> don't worry
27:44 <DHess_US> The Thermaltake I was considering, https://www.thermaltakeusa.com/core-w100.html
27:45 <Nothing\> is it?
27:47 <Ysjoelfir> lol. the english article is... like... 3 sentences. the norwegian is 3 pages
27:53 <Ampera> and if you're only able to afford 1660Ti's you're not gonna get a 30 series that easily
28:03 <Ampera> You'd have to wait until next year to get stock
28:05 <Nothing\> Ampera, i saw some with a release date of the 29th or 30th so they're not all out yet
28:10 <Ampera> The 3070 isn't out
28:10 <Nothing\> i just glanced at the page
28:18 <Ampera> but their yields are so low they have zero stock
28:20 <Ampera> and won't until 2021
28:40 <Ampera> DHess_US, oh that's a nice case actually
28:56 <Nothing\> Ampera, i want a threadripper 9660 with an RTX3090
28:58 <Ampera> not a fan of the castors, but you can remove those easily enough (probably)
29:02 <DHess_US> This is my workstation case from 2 generations ago, https://web.archive.org/web/20150516000037/http://www.coolcases.com/cases/sr103207_s_p1.html
29:04 <Ampera> Nothing\, you are an idiot
29:06 <Ampera> so do I
29:10 <DHess_US> I have it sitting in the other room and might just refurbish it.
29:11 <Ampera> let's be idiots together :P
29:13 <Nothing\> actually i heard the threadrippers aren't so great for home use
29:19 <Ampera> depends on what you're using them for
29:27 <Nothing\> well i mean gaming
29:34 <DHess_US> I got a Ryzen 2 3700X
29:36 <Ampera> they'd probably be fine for me, not stellar for gaming, but they'd rip and tear for compiling and compression
29:40 <Nothing\> they're probably great for like 3d rendering and such
29:45 <DHess_US> 64G of ECC DDR4
29:48 <Nothing\> DHess_US, i've got a 3600x
29:49 <Ampera> DHess_US, that's a Ryzen 7
30:02 <Ampera> I have a Ryzen 9 3950X
30:02 <Nothing\> i forget what ryzen it is
30:02 <DHess_US> 2nd generation Ryzen 3700X then
30:04 <Nothing\> 5 i think
30:09 <Ampera> DHess_US, also no, third generation
30:14 <Ampera> It is, however, Zen 2
30:19 <DHess_US> Zen 2 then
30:22 <Ampera> Don't feel bad, AMD's numbering is shit
30:26 <DHess_US> It is
30:33 <Nothing\> wiki's got a page with all of this shit on it
30:45 <DHess_US> Elected not to wait for Zen 3 because 20% more performance for 50% more cost and 75% more power
30:54 <Ampera> 3950X is really the best you can get until the boards and chips just get silly expensive
31:17 <Ysjoelfir> nah, just get that new intel thing
31:18 <Ampera> and it's good enough, I can compiled Chromium within the lifetime of the universe on it, which is alright
31:19 <Nothing\> heh i checked my internet speed last night
31:22 <DHess_US> 3700X had the highest boost clock with 65 watts
31:31 <Nothing\> i always thought my speed was only 150mpbs
31:36 <Nothing\> brb phone
31:47 <Ampera> DHess_US, word is it's not like that, Zen 3 is pretty solid
31:51 <Ampera> but you're smart not to have waited
32:01 <Ampera> buying in at Zen 3 would be buying into the end of the line
32:02 <Nothing\> great
32:13 <Nothing\> collection agency calling for my brother
32:13 <DHess_US> That is what the AMD presentation said. I have no reason to wait.
32:17 <Nothing\> that's all i need
32:26 <Nothing\> anyways what was i saying
32:26 <DHess_US> Or buying into an untested new version.
32:33 <Ampera> DHess_US, I know it's not 50% more cost for starters
32:39 <Ampera> and I doubt it's almost double the power too
32:40 <Nothing\> oh yeah i checked my internet speed, right
32:48 <Nothing\> i always thought it was just 150mbps
32:58 <Nothing\> but i got 350mbps when i tested it
33:04 <Ampera> yeah but what's the up
33:07 <Nothing\> so they musta increased it
33:23 <Nothing\> i forget what my upstream was but it was like 20 or 30mbps
33:27 <DHess_US> Ampera, from their own presentation.
33:38 <Ampera> DHess_US, link?
33:48 <DHess_US> There is only one presentation.
33:50 <Nothing\> actually, what's the fastest 5g can go?
33:52 <Ampera> at least timestamp so I don't have to shuffle through a video you watched already
33:53 <Nothing\> wifi 5g
34:06 <Nothing\> i'm wondering if it'd be faster if i used the network card
34:14 <Ampera> Nothing\, depends on the version of 802.11 using 5ghz
34:15 <Nothing\> for the sake of the test
34:27 <Nothing\> ah, right
34:29 <Ampera> you have 802.11a, n, ac, (and I think ay)
34:36 <rust_collector> just plug in a cable
34:37 <Ampera> then there's also channel size and MIMO capabilities
34:57 <Nothing\> ryzen 5
35:02 <Nothing\> that's what the 3600x is
35:20 <Nothing\> i bet they're getting ready to release some new CPUs too aren't they
35:24 <Nothing\> for the xmas season
35:28 <Ampera> An average 802.11ac configuration has a theoretical link speed of 866mbps
35:36 <DHess_US> Ampera, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuiO6rqYV4o
35:54 <rust_collector> heh, I think that is what I have on the table over here. r5 3600x yes, that sounds familiar
35:57 <Nothing\> btw is it bad to use an HDD if it's not perfectly level?
36:44 <Ampera> I see 19% increased IPC, which is not necessarily performance, and is honestly worth more
37:03 <Nothing\> cuz i was only really able to stuff this hdd into my computer and couldn't install it proprely so it's on a bit of an angle and i'm not sure but it sounds louder than it used to. but that could just be from using an SSD since i stopped using that computer.
37:21 <Ampera> One chart says 2.4x performance per watt
37:22 <Nothing\> i'm just worried about the potential for head crashes and such
37:33 <Nothing\> or limited lifespan
37:33 <Ampera> now that's an overly vague graph, but is directly inverse to what you said
37:45 <Ampera> it has less power consumption for the same power consumption as Zen 2
37:51 <Ampera> https://youtu.be/iuiO6rqYV4o?t=705
37:54 <DHess_US> Go to 19:12
38:16 <Nothing\> speaking of power consumption
38:22 <DHess_US> 65 watts -> 105 Watts, clock speed same so +20% from IPC, 50% increase cost
38:27 <rust_collector> nah, it should work fine, Nothing\ but I would try to keep it either flat or vertical. not at say 60°
38:27 <Nothing\> i connected my computer to a kill-a-watt meter
39:00 <Nothing\> and never once saw the power draw at more than 120 watts
39:13 <Ampera> DHess_US, the 3900X had a launch price of 500$, the 5900X has a launch price of 550$
39:14 <Nothing\> which seemed odd for a system with a 750watt psu
39:18 <rust_collector> well, add more rgb crap?
39:22 <Nothing\> you'd think it'd need more than that to run
39:25 <Ampera> if we go by current prices...
39:42 <Nothing\> even when i taxed the system, it only went up to 120watts and change
39:52 <Ampera> the price is currently 454 on amazon
39:57 <DHess_US> Ampera, their own presentation says $450
40:24 <Ampera> 50% more would be 675 dollars
40:34 <DHess_US> Huh? I payed $300
40:38 <Nothing\> rust_collector, yeah it's not nearly as bad as 60 degrees, closer to 30 degrees. but it still worries me because it makes audible noises and my SSD doesn't
40:50 <Ampera> DHess_US, you must have gotten it on a sale then
40:56 <Nothing\> i was thinking i should get a 2tb external drive or something
40:59 <DHess_US> Just a small sale.
41:04 <rust_collector> well, 30 is 60 from the other direction.
41:11 <Ampera> er, you didn't get the 3900X
41:19 <DHess_US> Of course not.
41:21 <Nothing\> somehow i'm already out of space on both of my 1tb drives
41:33 <Ampera> current price is 300 dollars
41:40 <Nothing\> though i've gotta format the one cuz it still has a copy of windows on it from my last computer
41:44 <Ampera> for your 3700X
42:01 <Ampera> which isn't the same model line
42:08 <Ampera> the 3800X is 340 USD
42:11 <Nothing\> Ampera, yeah i regret not being able to get a system with a 3700x
42:15 <DHess_US> 3700X is the 8 core Zen 2
42:24 <Ampera> yes, but not the top end 8 core
42:28 <Ampera> that would be the 3800X
42:34 <Ampera> for which the replacement is the 5800X
42:36 <Nothing\> but my system as it was was $2,000
42:41 <Ampera> keeping the same second number
42:42 <DHess_US> The 8 core Zen 3 is the one I compared in the presentation.
42:57 <Nothing\> i just bought this computer maybe a month and a bit ago
43:05 <DHess_US> Yes, but they didn't list or discuss a "3800X"
43:10 <Ampera> the 5800X isn't the replacement for the 3700X though, it's the replacement for the 3800X
43:43 <DHess_US> But it is what would be available. I'm obivously not buying a future part which doesn't exist.
43:51 <rust_collector> I think I will go and see if I can get my via 400mhz thing running again
43:52 <Ampera> They didn't seem to mention any 3000 series chips in terms of price in that presentation
43:55 <DHess_US> The only thing we can compare to is what they announced.
43:57 <Ampera> not around that timestamp you gave me
44:00 <DHess_US> Exactly.
44:13 <DHess_US> There is only 3 processors on release.
44:34 <DHess_US> And none of them are an 8-core 65 watt processor
45:30 <DHess_US> Which leads to questioning how a 65 watt version of the 8-core Zen 3 will perform compared to the 3700X, when the 105W Zen 3 is 20% faster.
46:03 <Ampera> well we don't have that information
46:04 <DHess_US> So there was zero reason for me to wait for Zen 3.
46:46 <Ampera> and yeah, I agree, for other reasons you shouldn't get Zen 3, but their chips aren't more 50% more expensive necessarily, only 20% faster, or 75% more power hungry
47:06 <Ampera> not when you compare the proper replacements for the SKUs
47:11 <DHess_US> The chip they announced which would replace the 3700X that I have, is exactly that.
47:20 <Ampera> they announced a 5700X?
47:33 <DHess_US> No, that is the point. There is no 5700X
47:40 <Ampera> Well then they just are not replacing your chip
47:41 <DHess_US> It does not exist.
47:58 <Ampera> and more importantly, that higher model chip replacement would be far more than 20% faster, as it's a higher SKU replacement
48:06 <Ampera> just as a 3800X would be a bit faster than a 3700X
48:11 <Ampera> as it takes more power and has higher clocks itself
48:14 <DHess_US> The only thing I would buy if I waited, is what they described, which is 20% faster, for 75% more power, and 50% higher price.
48:25 <Ampera> that's a fair point, and I agree with you
48:38 <Ampera> actually no I don't
48:42 <Ampera> it's not 20% faster
48:51 <Ampera> it's likely considerably more than that
48:59 <Ampera> as it's not replacing your SKU
49:02 <DHess_US> That might matter if I wanted 20% more single thread performance at that cost, but I don't.
49:24 <Nothing\> this computer came with 16gb of DDR4 running at 1330mhz according to cpu-z, the ryzen 5 3600x running at a max of 4.4ghz on 6 cores and 12 threads, and the GTX 1660 TI with 6gb of VRAM and a boost GPU speed of 1770mhz
49:26 <Ampera> but you'd be getting more than 20% because it's only fair to compare it to the 3800X
49:29 <Ampera> not the 3700X
49:30 <DHess_US> They said very specifically earlier in the presentation that the IPC boost was 20%. They announced the clock.
49:32 <Nothing\> plus a nearly 1tb ssd
49:34 <Ampera> which isn't getting a refresh
49:40 <Nothing\> it was like 960gb, but close enough
49:41 <Ampera> Yeah, for the same core
49:45 <Nothing\> all for $2,000
49:48 <Nothing\> plus tax
49:50 <Ampera> the 3800X and 3700X have different power cores
49:56 <Nothing\> which is 13% here
50:17 <Ampera> one is 65W as you said and the 3800X is 105W
50:21 <DHess_US> If single thread performance was all that matters, then the newer Zen 3 would make sense.
50:27 <Ampera> so the 5800X is 20% higher IPC than the 3800X
50:28 <Nothing\> so it wound up coming to like $2,260 for my computer
50:54 <DHess_US> But 20% higher for 50% higher cost? No thanks, I'll wait.
50:56 <Ampera> and thus, for the same performance, takes less power
51:00 <Ampera> ...
51:09 <Ampera> that's not how any of this works
51:22 <Nothing\> power draw doesn't really matter to me, unless it's a laptop
51:24 <Ampera> it's more than 20% better performance because it's not in comparison to different chips
51:24 <DHess_US> They gave the IPC improvement earlier. The clock speeds are known.
51:45 <Nothing\> which i don't care for laptops. at least, i have little use for them that is.
51:53 <Ampera> yes, but it is not an apt comparison, because you are comparing a replacement for a different model of processor
52:07 <Ampera> the 5800X is 20% faster than the 3800X, not the 3700X
52:08 <DHess_US> I'm comparing replacements for the models which exist, and not some fantasy.
52:16 <DHess_US> NO!
52:34 <DHess_US> Go back and watch it. The Zen 3 core has a 20% IPC improvement.
52:41 <Ampera> Yes, for the same power draw
52:42 <Nothing\> i'm always home, so i hove no reason for mobile electrics except a phone or tablet on which to read the news or wiki while i try to poop in the morning
52:50 <Ampera> so a 105W Zen 3 core is 20% faster than a 105W Zen 2 core
52:56 <DHess_US> IPC! What do you think IPC means?
53:00 <Ampera> Instructions Per Clock
53:16 <Nothing\> icup
53:20 <Ampera> The Zen 3 core does 20% more instructions per clock than a Zen 2 core, for the same power draw
53:28 <DHess_US> Do you think IPC changes with power? And it actually goes *down* with higher clock rates.
53:29 <Ampera> the 5800X and 3700X do not have the same power draw
54:00 <Ampera> As far as I knew IPC went up with a higher clock rate
54:01 <DHess_US> So techincally IPC decreases at higher power, but not because of higher power.
54:15 <Nothing\> do you think you could make a whole system on a chip on an FPGA?
54:27 <Ampera> but while this may all be true, it's not measurable without benchmarks to show this
54:31 <Nothing\> i mean, a cheap or modestly priced fpga
54:31 <DHess_US> No, it decreases because latency in clocks increases.
54:57 <DHess_US> An a non-ideal system, it would stay the same.
55:01 <Ampera> It may be true, but your comparison is still not any better
55:12 <Nothing\> lol man
55:20 <Nothing\> i lost the fucking dongle for my gamepad
55:20 <Ampera> because you are using different cores in your comparison than they are
55:33 <Ampera> the best we know anyways
55:39 <DHess_US> My comparison is the only one available, because there is no 4700X or whatever they will call it.
56:01 <Ampera> True, but that means you cannot make a comparison, since there is no refresh for your CPU
56:02 <DHess_US> The cores are all the same between those Zen 3 models.
56:11 <Ampera> Yes, but clocked differently
56:20 <DHess_US> Actually clocked almost identially.
56:26 <DHess_US> identically
56:36 <DHess_US> They give the clocks in the presentation.
57:25 <Ampera> er, I thought you meant between the Zen 2 models, my bad, the 3700X and 3800X are clocked and powered differently
57:36 <Ampera> just meaning, you can't compare the 3700X against the 5800X and use their numbers
57:41 <Ampera> because they wouldn't have done that
57:55 <Ampera> as the 5800X isn't replacing the 3700X in terms of power or performance
58:01 <Ampera> it's replacing the 3800X
58:05 <DHess_US> They wouldn't have done that? That is exactly what they did.
58:35 <DHess_US> They compare the IPC between the Zen 2 and Zen 3 core.
58:52 <DHess_US> Then they give power and clock speed for each model.
59:58 <Ampera> but the 5800X is clocked higher than the 3700X, and higher even than the 3800X, so you could even say you can't properly compare the 5800X to either of them
00:03 <Ampera> as they are clocked differently
00:31 <Ampera> so if that's IPC, clock for clock, you'd need to compare it to an identically clocked Zen 2 core
00:53 <Ampera> which is why the 5800X is not 20% higher IPC than the 3700X
01:41 <Ampera> er, 20% higher single threaded performance
02:01 <Ampera> I think I might see where I was being confusing here, the IPC is 20% more, but the performance per core isn't
02:13 <Ampera> which is what I meant to say
02:43 <DHess_US> 3.3/4.4 versus 3.8/4.7 is an insignificant difference compared to the 20% IPC difference.
02:52 <Nothing\> so i have to buy a new gamepad just cuz i list the dongle for the one i have :/
03:02 <Nothing\> such a pain
03:03 <Ampera> The IPC remains 20% more, but the performance doesn't necessarily
03:28 <DHess_US> They gave some application benchmarks which are consistent.
03:37 <Ampera> and iirc, those TDPs (from AMD) are averages based off how hard and how much the chips will boost
03:49 <DHess_US> But they are the only numbers we have.
03:52 <Nothing\> i wish i could get a gamepad that just uses bluetooth and recharges through USB so there's no dongle to mess with
04:19 <rust_collector> Nothing\, what gamepad
04:23 <Ampera> Anyways, I wouldn't buy Zen 3 regardless of the performance, just because Zen 4 will have a new socket (most likely) chipset family, and DDR5
04:33 <Ampera> so you'd be buying into an ecosystem that's at the end of the line
04:35 <Nothing\> rust_collector, logitech F310
04:53 <Nothing\> it's a good gamepad, i've bought a couple of variations of it it
05:01 <Nothing\> corded and cordless
05:09 <Ampera> unless they do something crazy like with the Phenom II's where it has a DDR4 and DDR5 controller on it
05:12 <DHess_US> So what? My workstation is a PHenom 2 940 with 8G of ECC
05:54 <DHess_US> It would have cost as much to upgrade my Phenom 2 940 to 32GB as it has to buy a new motherboard, CPU, and 64G of RAM.
06:01 <Nothing\> the corded one's cords broke inside and at the time i didn't have the skill to cut out the broken part of the cable and solder it all back together proper
06:38 <Nothing\> i saw my brother using a PS4 controller for his PC and got wondering if that would be feasible
06:44 <DHess_US> My workstations always last 10 years. I have my Pentium 4 and Pentium 3 workstations here with me right now and they work just fine.
07:05 <DHess_US> Of course they aren't much use with 1G and 2G of RAM and 32 bit only.
07:36 <rust_collector> Nothing\, 710? I can only find 310s with a cable?
07:36 <Ampera> Point being, upgrades are less possible with Zen 3 than with Zen 4
07:52 <Ampera> which, for me, would be why I wouldn't buy it
08:00 <Ampera> as I'd rather have the option
08:02 <DHess_US> Maybe when Zen 4 comes out, I will upgrade my Zen 2 with a Zen 3 processor.
08:11 <Ampera> That's also an option
08:52 <Nothing\> according to this website i come acress you should be able to just plug your Ninenda Switch's Prof controller into a USB port on your computer and it should recognize it but my computer didn't do anything. alternatively you're supposed to be able to hold the sync button to connect with blue tooth but it didn't do anything when I did that, either.
08:52 <DHess_US> but I'm not going to wait a couple months to buy a Zen 3 processor which costs more and draws more power for a negligible performance improvement.
09:05 <Nothing\> rust_collector, it mighta been
09:05 <Ampera> yeah, fair enough
09:17 <Nothing\> ah yeah, 710
09:19 <Nothing\> my bad
09:23 <Nothing\> just checked the back
09:40 <rust_collector> ok, well, you can get replacement dongles for them...
09:57 <Ampera> Nothing\, to answer your question, entire systems are regularly implemented onto FPGA's, Analogue commonly does this with their FPGA consoles
09:59 <Nothing\> well it was a shit gamepad anyways
10:09 <DHess_US> The reason I bought the 3700X was that it was the highest clocked 65W processor.
10:16 <Nothing\> it would lag real bad for no apparent reason
10:19 <rust_collector> i would probably try to pair it with a mouse dongle, and the logitech tool. just to try that
11:01 <Nothing\> Ampera, i kinda figured that, but would it be possible to do with a modest FPGA? Or do you have to got one of those $10,000 deals?
11:19 <Ampera> FPGA's come in a variety of shapes and sizes
11:28 <Ampera> so it'd presumably depend on the complexity of your system
11:29 <Nothing\> indeed
11:37 <Ampera> I do know that the Analogue consoles are far less than 10 grand
11:39 <Nothing\> and niche uses, i'm sure
12:48 <Nothing\> there's a game i got where you have to use a sort of hardware description language to perform various tasks
13:09 <Nothing\> like i went through making various logic gates, now i've gotta make an ALU
13:43 <Nothing\> it's called MHRD
13:47 <Nothing\> on steam
14:07 <Nothing\> btw Ampera what'd you say your steam account was called?
14:25 <Ampera> I called it a steam account
14:37 <Nothing\> 1093720469
14:45 <Nothing\> there's my friend code, apparently
14:59 <Nothing\> not sure what name i'm using
15:42 <Ampera> friend code?
15:44 <Ampera> steam has those?
15:48 <Nothing\> apparently
16:07 <Ampera> I've had Steam since I think 2012, and I never knew that
16:19 <Nothing\> or the name it says i'm using is just "Nothing" which is too generic for me to believe it's a unique identifier
16:47 <Ampera> Maybe it was something new they added with their chat system revamp
17:26 <Nothing\> there you are
17:35 <Nothing\> my first and only friend on steam
17:44 <Nothing\> and you probably always will be
19:04 <Nothing\> would be interesting to poke around your profile and see what all is publicly visible and what isn't
19:08 <rust_collector> ok, time to look at jobs in the area
19:20 <Nothing\> rust_collector, good luck, man
19:41 <rust_collector> thanks, it would be interesting
20:31 <Nothing\> Ampera, you're making me realize i've forgotten a good chunk of cyrillic pronunciation
21:29 <Nothing\> the problem is, my one med causes literal amnesia so it's almost impossible to learn anything an it proper
21:51 <Nothing\> i mean, i can learn stuff, but a lot of it just doesn't stick
21:55 <Ampera> don't worry, I wasn't calling you an idiot or a moron or anything like that
22:15 <Nothing\> no i know. it's all good :)
22:26 <Ampera> >:) muahahahahaha
22:31 <Nothing\> frankly i like having the opportunity to use my skills
22:49 <Nothing\> that's half the reason i forget as much as i did. lack of use.
23:03 <rust_collector> Ysjoelfir, here is one for you: https://www.finn.no/job/fulltime/ad.html?finnkode=194186880
23:19 <Nothing\> and why after 9 years of french classes, i can barely form a coherent sentence in french
24:30 <rust_collector> french?
24:39 <Nothing\> i actually had a dream once where i spoke french, but all i could say was "je ne parle pa francais maintenant".... meaning "i don't speak french right now"
24:41 <Nothing\> lol
24:44 <rust_collector> I tried french once
24:52 <Ampera> Nothing\, don't worry, actual french speakers can't form coherent sentences either
24:54 <rust_collector> Tu manges comme un cochon
25:15 <Nothing\> not sure what cochon is
25:20 Quit: arch ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
25:20 <Nothing\> or what comme means
25:37 <Nothing\> i know comme ci comme ca means "so-so"
25:40 <Ampera> He's saying he'd love to suck your cock.
25:42 <rust_collector> you eat like a pig
25:49 <Ampera> I was close
25:54 <rust_collector> close enough
26:05 <rust_collector> hmm
26:09 <Nothing\> like if somebody asks how you're doing you can say "comme ci comme ca" to say you're so-so
26:11 <rust_collector> 9 years, eh?
26:16 <Nothing\> yeah
26:23 <Nothing\> as per law in canada
26:26 <Ampera> I haven't even been alive that long
26:30 <rust_collector> Si voletz domnas gazanhar,
26:31 <rust_collector> Quan crezetz que-us fassan onors,
26:31 <rust_collector> Si-us fan avol respos avar
26:31 <rust_collector> Vos las prenetz a menassar; domna
26:31 <rust_collector> E si vos fan respos peiors,Datz lor del ponh per mieg sas nars
26:52 <Nothing\> rust_collector, can't make heads or tails of any of that
27:01 <rust_collector> good
27:10 <rust_collector> because it is not nice
27:24 <Nothing\> bit i find i can understand a good chunk of the french wiki site
27:32 <coppice> Nothing\: its all a matter of motivation. If your mother tongue is English only a specific need will really get you paying attention in language lessons. When French was the lingua franca the British middle and upper class actually learned it
27:50 <Nothing\> it seems to use easier words or words closer to english ones
28:11 <Ampera> coppice, when french was the lingua franca
28:22 <Ampera> there isn't a punishment in the world fit for what you've just done
28:25 <Nothing\> coppice, for me a big problem is just a lack of opportnity to use it
28:34 <Nothing\> at least, outside of school
28:40 <coppice> Nothing\: that's my point
28:51 <Nothing\> i mean in school, i didn't give a shit and didn't want to learn it. but i wish i had now.
29:05 <Ampera> My dad wanted me to learn German
29:23 <Ampera> so for the first 10 or so years of my life he often outright refused to speak to me in English
29:26 <coppice> people who don't know english as a first language are highly motivated to learn it, as it opens doors
29:29 <Nothing\> coppice, well there are lots of opportunity here cuz everything's bilingual by law
29:39 <Nothing\> including product packaging
29:54 <Ampera> He was such an asshole about it I didn't want to learn German because of it
30:02 <Nothing\> which is wheche i learn most of the frenchc i inkwo now lol
30:08 <Ampera> if he hadn't been so overbearing about it I probably would be able to speak German now
30:23 <Nothing\> prechaffeur la four a 450f
30:25 <coppice> Nothing\: bilingual places are not a great motivator to learn, if one of those languages is your mother tongue
31:03 <Nothing\> coppice, yeah and tbh i've only ever seen like half a dozen francophones in my my lifetime
31:07 <Ampera> I've found if you learn how to speak english fluently enough, you begin to understand half of a lot of other European languages when they're written down
31:17 <Ampera> simply because English is such a bastard of a language
31:27 <Nothing\> theyr'e not very common outside of quebeci
31:58 <Nothing\> Ampera, english is derived from a lot of those languages
32:10 <Ampera> I just said that
32:39 <Nothing\> no you didn't
32:45 * Nothing\ glares accusingly at Ampera 
32:46 <Ampera> "simply because English is such a bastard of a language"
32:49 <Nothing\> lol
32:54 <Ampera> that's exactly what that means
32:56 <Nothing\> it really is
33:00 <Ampera> ???
33:08 <Nothing\> the other problem i've had learning other languages
33:11 <Ampera> Nothing\, oh do you want to see my new guitar?
33:17 <Nothing\> is learning the tenses
33:20 <Nothing\> oh yeah dude
33:22 <Ampera> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/446784883633684491/767047283668942909/20201017_104919.jpg
33:25 <Nothing\> let's check 'er out
33:27 <Ampera> (not my amp, the store's)
33:31 <Nothing\> you give her a name yet?
33:36 <Ampera> no.
33:41 <Ampera> and it's a him you sexist
33:51 <Nothing\> beautiful
33:55 <Nothing\> lol my bad
33:56 <rust_collector> george-ronald
34:00 <Ampera> Ibanez 6 string bass
34:12 <Nothing\> that's a ver ydignified color
34:13 <Ampera> the picture doesn't do it justice, that fretboard is even bigger than it looks in real life
34:17 <Nothing\> like leather
34:29 <Ampera> It feels really nice too, it'd be a guitar I'd love to play standing up on stage or something
35:01 <Nothing\> only 2 single coil pick-ups?
35:01 <Ampera> It has excellent range too, I forget the upper limit, but the lowest note it can make is 30hz
35:11 <Ampera> Not sure what the pickups are, let me check
35:12 <Nothing\> ah nice
35:20 <rust_collector> I guess you would be better off if you had BIG hands on a 6 string bass? or is it not as big as I think?
35:23 <Nothing\> i'm sure one of those is a humbucker
36:17 <Ampera> Bartolini BH2 pickups
36:20 <Nothing\> it confuses me when i see these super nice guitars and I look at them and see what looks like 2 or 3 single coil pickups and no humbuckers
36:31 <Ampera> rust_collector, my hands aren't that big, but I can still use it fine enough
36:34 <Ampera> it's big, but not unusably big
37:13 <rust_collector> ok nice
37:40 <Ampera> thinking of getting some flat wounds for it at some point
37:45 <Ampera> but I'll stick with the stock strings for now
38:13 <Nothing\> nice, can't find the bh-2 though
38:26 <Ampera> I have no clue what sort of pickups they are
38:39 <Ampera> they sound pretty much identical though, so there's no real variation
38:43 <Ampera> I may replace them one day
39:27 <Nothing\> welp, guess i sholud get up and pee and all that good stuff before i burst
39:36 <Nothing\> stupid body and its functions
39:45 <Ampera> have fun
39:52 <Nothing\> oh i will
39:57 <Nothing\> i'll have a blast
40:05 <Nothing\> and i can practice my tinkle song
40:45 <Nothing\> DOWN WHEN YOU TINKLE, UP WHEN YOU'RE DONE. CON-GRA-TU-LA-TIONS YOU'VE MADE A NUMBER 1!
41:15 <DHess_US> Ampera, I'd actually prefer the Fractial Designs case to the Thermaltake because the FD cases have air filtering and the Thermaltake case does not.
41:16 <Nothing\> much better than my previous pee song
41:49 <Nothing\> I PEE IN THE TOILET... I PEE ON THE WALL... I PEE BACK IN THE TOILET... I DON'T PEE AT ALL (that's cuz i'm done)
42:08 <Nothing\> man i never realized how many songs i have for the bathroom
42:20 <Nothing\> i even have a song for when i have to poop really bad
52:01 <rust_collector> raining blood?
52:41 <rust_collector> one more job for Ysjoelfir https://arbeidsplassen.nav.no/stillinger/stilling/50474e54-42af-48ce-9ba6-57d10618e985 still nothing for me
53:18 <Ysjoelfir> uh, kongsberg :D
55:16 <rust_collector> I think that part of kongsberg is more into people who are curious, than people having all the papers.
14:10 <rust_collector> well, that was all. pssssh
15:34 <rust_collector> ok, I guess I will stay at my old job for a week longer
20:56 <rust_collector> mmhf
27:15 <rust_collector> https://degtyarov.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/direction-valfoutre.png?w=282&h=362
43:09 <Ysjoelfir> why would you want to leave that job rusty?
45:24 <rust_collector> well, if I found something close to me...
45:53 <rust_collector> and, I have done that job for 15 years on the 20th of november. it is ok
52:52 <Ysjoelfir> hey, that means 15 times as much money than before, right? :D
53:05 <rust_collector> uuuuh
53:31 <rust_collector> it means 85% of the other people will be laid off before me, but... no
53:59 <Ysjoelfir> meh
10:56 <electrohead> o/
11:59 <Ysjoelfir> hi mr head
12:10 <electrohead> hey
12:20 <electrohead> rust_collector: "raining blood" lol
12:23 <rust_collector> \/0Ẁ/\o/\MV\/
12:46 <rust_collector> classic in the "office"
12:59 * electrohead cranks up slayer even louder
13:45 <rust_collector> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7-aduHx5bo
22:51 <rust_collector> this one is maybe a bit better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89rgBcx4Luw
43:41 <Nothing\> i hate thath song
43:46 <Nothing\> raining blood by slayer
44:07 <Nothing\> took forever to finish it on guitar hero 3
45:13 <electrohead> lol
45:19 * electrohead hands you a real guitar
45:22 <electrohead> now play it :P
45:40 <Nothing\> i did, for almost 10 years
46:04 <coppice> slayer look like a parody of slayer
46:33 <rust_collector> that is because they are
46:57 <rust_collector> maybe you remember tha days when kerry king had hair and a neck?
47:30 <electrohead> that's quite some time ago, heh
48:07 <electrohead> when jeff died, gary holt did a damn good job of filling in
48:12 <electrohead> exodus is a good band, too
59:15 <rust_collector> well, you can not blame them for that
59:26 <rust_collector> the prodigy is good
20:17 <rust_collector> and the silence is back
22:06 <rust_collector> hsn, !??! chicken guy!!!!?
22:24 <Halcyon> Mmmm chicken
22:41 <rust_collector> yes, did you see the pics?
29:34 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Retweet: NASA's OSIRIS-REx: Preliminary data show that today's sample collection event went as planned 👍 More details to come once all the data from the event are downlinked to Earth. Thanks, everybody, for following along as we journey #ToBennuAndBack! Next stop: Earth 2023! 🌍 https://t.co/fP7xdOEeOs
47:32 <rust_collector> whoa! loads of bold text!!!
47:43 <rust_collector> good night people
47:59 <rust_collector> chicken hug to Halcyon
48:06 <Halcyon> \o/
48:06 * electrohead is back for now
48:10 <electrohead> \o/
48:14 <rust_collector> OI!
48:21 <electrohead> got a tiny bit busy and all that fun stuff
48:29 <rust_collector> arrgh
49:43 <rust_collector> and just when I was rubbing salmonella on Halfcyan, with my face
50:23 Join: arch ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
51:44 * electrohead unrubs it
51:54 <electrohead> uuhhh
52:02 * electrohead waits for a "that's what she said" joke
52:27 <rust_collector> 
52:28 <rust_collector> 
52:31 <rust_collector> and
52:32 <rust_collector> 
52:51 <rust_collector> because that is all I have to say about that
52:58 <rust_collector> ³
53:57 <rust_collector> so, I was going to bed...
54:15 <rust_collector> good night mr head
54:48 <electrohead> goodnight rust_collector
55:13 <rust_collector> .:i*##i`
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55:38 Nick: rust_collector is now known as not_rusty
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57:18 <MRiddickW> This looks really great on my vertical monitor.
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57:38 <electrohead> I'm on my thinkpad T60 right now, and can't tell what the hell it is.
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58:29 <MRiddickW> Dickbutt
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59:48 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o Halcyon
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00:00 Mode: (by Halcyon) +b *!*@*.4186804474.user
00:14 <electrohead> lmfao
00:34 <MRiddickW> It was cute the first time. Not so much on repeat.
00:48 <electrohead> That got annoying pretty fast
00:58 <Halcyon> What was that?
01:03 <Halcyon> Cat walking on his keyboard?
01:23 <electrohead> He'll probably call it that, heh
01:45 <Halcyon> Oh well, we'll sort it out when he/I am back. Laters.
02:03 <electrohead> Haha, later man
02:23 <MRiddickW> (mildly NSFW) https://imgur.com/t7AHqgE
03:10 <MRiddickW> NSFLW, or Not Safe For Literal Work maybe.
04:28 Part: not_rusty ([email protected]) from #EEVblog (Leaving)
05:05 Mode: (by Halcyon) -b *!*@*.4186804474.user
24:38 <electrohead> oh nice, such lovely artwork
24:49 <electrohead> I would never think that he would post something like that
41:56 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: Sitting in the car service waiting room and am being subjected to daytime variety television in the background. Twitter is actually a godsend in comparison. TWITTER.
10:04 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: I'm stuck here for at least the next hour and bored. Impromptu Twitter Ask Me Anything. Go...
16:24 Join: Bob ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
17:44 <steve30> hi
22:32 Quit: Bob ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
26:32 Quit: Dude ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
28:18 Join: Bob ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
28:32 <Bob> Hi
29:12 Quit: Bob ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
32:51 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: Our Prime Minister #ScottyFromMarketing just said we are "upgrading the circuit boards of the economy". LOL
44:07 <MrMobodies> Hello
44:07 <EEVBlog> Hello there, MrMobodies!
44:20 <MrMobodies> what a nice bit of decoration from Rusty
45:02 <MrMobodies> Today, I had a rotten day, wasted £40 down the drain.
47:17 <MrMobodies> https://i.imgur.com/gGzeMcC.jpg
48:12 <MrMobodies> Sas connectors appeared jammed into the connector, I tried lifting it out at the back but when I did get it out, I anticipicated something like that coulfd happen but they're so flat against the board put something in the middle
48:32 <MrMobodies> I found another backplane PCB on Ebay £40 not including the cage
48:41 <MrMobodies> and only one left
49:41 <MrMobodies> I don't think I have the tools small enough to solder those resistors. Maybe in future I could try.
52:18 <damian> array adapter?
52:33 <damian> honestly i've never seen anyone try to repair things like that, but i'm in IT not electronics
52:55 <damian> and if you don't have the tools to fix, it sounds like a good time to upgrade! early christmas present :P
53:36 <MrMobodies> Actually looking at it now I could have been more carefull and wedged a block with some glue near the power connector
53:56 <MrMobodies> It came with a HP ML350e G8
54:16 <MrMobodies> I got another one on Ebay for £40
54:30 <MrMobodies> it is a six bay cage
59:21 <damian> oh yeah
00:24 <damian> just for hobby/homelab i suspect?
00:39 <Halcyon> Right, front lawn has been mowed
00:55 <damian> good work Halcyon, have an appletini!
01:23 <Halcyon> I am having a wine :-)
01:32 <damian> appletini is better
01:51 <Halcyon> I'm fresh out
01:56 <damian> poor effort
02:00 <damian> what kind of man are you
02:05 <Halcyon> I know :(
09:40 <steve30> hi Halcyon
11:29 <Halcyon> Hey Steve :)
11:57 <MrMobodies> home lab?
12:14 <MrMobodies> I did get the redundancy enabledment kit
12:15 <steve30> i slept well. I feel better now.
12:18 <Halcyon> :)
12:29 <MrMobodies> I was going to bodge the second cage but hte wires looked too thin
12:31 <steve30> I've been really tired lately
12:32 <MrMobodies> https://imgur.com/a/BhoEasz
12:41 <MrMobodies> Oh hello
12:55 <Halcyon> Maybe you're lacking iron Steve
13:49 <MrMobodies> the day before I mowed the garden to rid of the leaves
14:04 <MrMobodies> when I woke up yesterday, it looked the same as before.
16:15 <MrMobodies> On the other hand, the controller that I brought for £28 works
16:17 <MrMobodies> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Areca-ARC-1882IX-16-v3-16-port-SATA-SAS-6GBPS-PCIE-3-0-RAID-CONTROLLER/174478169142
16:41 <MrMobodies> Got that at a sensible price but others want silly money for it.
17:17 <MrMobodies> and the battery kit alone seems to go for a similar price.
18:05 <Halcyon> I just use ZFS these days
18:44 <MrMobodies> when it is all set up and I experiment on all sorts of things
18:50 <MrMobodies> I am waiting for parts at the moment
19:56 <MrMobodies> Do you think it is reasonable for me to think I am having a bad day for breaking the resistors on that board?
20:47 <damian> you didn't break them, you tested their structural integrity
20:55 <damian> and they failed the test
21:08 <damian> really it's the resistors that are having the bad day
24:35 <MrMobodies> I like that way of thinking
28:11 * steve30 hugs Halcyon 
30:31 <Halcyon> :D
33:13 <MrMobodies> It's not my fault, the resistor could not longer resist the force of the impact.
34:29 <MrMobodies> Psyhcologist: He's blaming the resistors to make himself feel better by justifying the blame.
36:31 <MrMobodies> Someone offered me a little role, 3 weeks ago in Liverpool but it never materialized.
36:39 <MrMobodies> I heard it went into tier 3 lockdown
44:37 <MrMobodies> I have an old hp dl380 G5 server, I am going to give it to someone but I have feeling they may not want it.
44:53 <MrMobodies> would anyone be interested?
45:17 <steve30> I forumed: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/ebay-addresses/
45:18 <MrMobodies> I'll leave in some ssd's and the operating system but there's a catch
45:23 <MrMobodies> https://imgur.com/a/D0cPanl
45:54 <MrMobodies> it uses over 300 watts an hour and a little bit less when idle.
46:34 <MrMobodies> that sounds strange
47:41 <MrMobodies> Hmm STEVE30, you you forgot to hide your details on the uploaded parcel too.
48:03 <MrMobodies> oh neverminf
48:43 <damian> im going to send him a huge dildo
50:43 <Halcyon> :D
51:32 <MrMobodies> I see, an underwater submarine thing that can be used in the bathtub.
52:00 <MrMobodies> for toy racing
55:36 <Halcyon> Oddly relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffQ6r8shkAs
56:45 <damian> how .. what?!
57:09 <Halcyon> Hehehe watch it to the end, it's great
58:37 <damian> rofl wtf gi joe
04:07 <MrMobodies> Dogs smell other dogs farts too
04:36 <MrMobodies> I have seen them sniff one another.
04:36 <Halcyon> Charming
04:45 <MrMobodies> I asked why do they do that
05:13 <MrMobodies> the owner said it is a way of greeting one another
05:57 <MrMobodies> It was out in the field some years ago and it was a German shepard
06:21 <MrMobodies> and it was friendly with some other dogs but they seem to like sniff each other bums which I thought wa strange
07:24 <MrMobodies> this is one I like:
07:26 <MrMobodies> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKPi66Us27Q
11:49 <Halcyon> Hahaha
11:51 <Halcyon> Awesome
11:57 <Halcyon> I love Eddie Murphy
12:42 <MrMobodies> "Take the bass out of your voice"
12:53 <MrMobodies> I found that funny
13:13 <MrMobodies> and an excuse for everything
14:09 <Halcyon> Benny Hill is great too
14:11 <MrMobodies> also when he says "This is how you answer the door in my neighbourhood, WHOIS IS IT!!!"
14:16 <MrMobodies> ohh
15:20 <MrMobodies> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc6z0nK6vsE
15:55 <MrMobodies> about him being bold wearing a hat. "Well they won't know then will they!"
16:09 <Halcyon> Haha yes
16:21 <Halcyon> That's the wife swap sketch isn't it?
16:26 <MrMobodies> yes
16:51 <MrMobodies> says to the wife I don';t drink for you sake I drink for MINE!
17:05 <MrMobodies> I like his way with words
17:24 <Halcyon> Very clever comedian
18:51 <MrMobodies> I like this one,
18:53 <MrMobodies> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k
19:14 <MrMobodies> "Can I have an argument please." with John Cleese
21:20 Join: Ysjoelfir_ ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
22:45 Quit: Ysjoelfir ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
22:46 Nick: Ysjoelfir_ is now known as Ysjoelfir
27:04 <MrMobodies> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGte64wLYJ8
27:18 <Halcyon> Hey Ysjoelfir
31:25 <MrMobodies> Hello
38:56 * steve30 needs a coffee
51:14 * Halcyon throws coffee beans at steve30 
54:27 <steve30> :)
55:33 <Halcyon> MrMobodies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_LeJfn_qW0
04:16 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: FFS, you can't even escape the online world on the moon https://t.co/PfEFAHpT09
20:14 Quit: arch ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
22:53 <Halcyon> Anyone up for cards against humanity? https://azala.info/static/index.html?game=ZEJI
42:04 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: Not as crowded as it looks, but getting there... https://t.co/tczpV6Xish
39:41 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: When the water cooler conversation with a car dealership front desk receptionist moves to commercial property downsizing, and they know all about it happening, you know it's bad.
41:01 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Retweet: Barry Marshall: Mars in opposition- taken with iPhone XS max looking east from Gingin last weekend. I was surprised to actually see a disc. @uwanews @Noisy_Guts https://t.co/azUmmUgHcE
01:48 Quit: Polesch ([email protected]) Connection closed
03:37 * Ampera sneezes at Halcyon
06:00 <damian> WEAR A MASK
08:45 <Ampera> damian, no, masks are for communists
13:39 <Halcyon> No, I like his fluids
15:26 * Ampera leaks all over Halcyon 
16:16 <Halcyon> \o/ *spins*
16:46 * steve30 hugs Halcyon 
17:02 <Halcyon> YAY!
18:08 <Ampera> how are you doing Halcyon
18:29 <Halcyon> Tipsy but satisfied
18:37 <Ampera> >:/
18:42 <Ampera> stop drinking you alcoholic
18:55 <Halcyon> The lawns are done, the house is clean, the birb is still an asshole but oh well
20:04 <Ampera> Halcyon, he takes after you <3
20:17 <Halcyon> He takes after YOU
20:24 <Ampera> I've never even met him
21:11 <Halcyon> :P
23:02 <Halcyon> My fingers smell like garlic
23:24 <Ampera> my fingers smell like fingers
23:43 <Halcyon> #FingersAreFingers
23:49 <Ampera> stop this
24:14 <Halcyon> I'll stop you
24:27 <Ampera> not if I stop me first
24:31 Part: Ampera ([email protected]) from #EEVblog (Leaving)
25:47 <steve30> I want to make a follow up video to the camcorder repair attempt video I made last year.
26:06 <Halcyon> Oh?
26:26 <steve30> I actually made most of the video last year, but didn't do the intro. I'll do that then edit it together.
27:58 <Halcyon> I see
28:02 <Halcyon> What was wrong with it?
28:46 <steve30> It became a simple repair (once you've dismantled the camcorder). The head drum needed lubricating.
28:55 Join: spark_gap ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
29:21 <Halcyon> I see
29:53 <hsn> eevblog convert 20awg to mm
29:53 <EEVBlog> I can't seem to convert between those two units.
35:15 Join: Ampera ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
35:15 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o Ampera
35:24 * Ampera snaps Halcyon's arms in half
35:37 Join: clarkos ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
35:37 Quit: clarkos ([email protected]) Changing hosts
39:35 <Halcyon> :P
43:59 Quit: spark_gap ([email protected]) Connection closed
45:54 Join: spark_gap ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
54:49 Quit: Ysjoelfir ([email protected]) Changing hosts
54:49 Join: Ysjoelfir ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
54:59 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o Ysjoelfir
56:01 <Ysjoelfir> hello all
56:20 <steve30> hello Ysjoelfir
56:47 <Ysjoelfir> hey mr steve :)
56:49 <hsn> o/
56:56 * Ysjoelfir cheers to the steve with a cup of black tea with milk
57:02 * Ysjoelfir cheers to mr. sand too
57:06 <Ysjoelfir> o/
57:12 <hsn> how did ur thingy
57:14 <hsn> went
57:21 <hsn> or u didnt show up to them ?
58:10 <Ysjoelfir> it went actually quite good, nice people, despite me being pissed off. but I noticed that mr. senior chef seems to have some kind of early dementia, which might explain that.
59:08 <Ysjoelfir> they have very nice projects I would be working on as well. and they use altium. (and mentor xpedition and zuken 5000..... :X)
59:36 <Ysjoelfir> at 4th of november I have another interview with another... "company". Quite enthusiastic about that one, it could be VERY interesting
01:25 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: The @PayPalAU invoicing contact book has been down the whole day. Just when I need to send some invoices of course...
18:51 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: Q) Is there such a thing as an external PC sound card with WiFi? i.e. a little doodad box with just WiFi and a line level output?
21:29 <hsn> what are mentor and zuken
21:32 <hsn> u know them ?
22:11 <Ysjoelfir> mentor https://www.mentor.com/pcb/xpedition/
22:17 <Ysjoelfir> zuken https://www.zuken.com/en/product/cr-5000/
22:22 <hsn> i mean .. hmm
22:39 <hsn> r they used in ee design phase or mostly for ... hmm
22:43 <hsn> fab house ?
23:01 <Ysjoelfir> never used any of them, but I used the smaller brother of XPedition, Mentor PADS. Which is crap. but xpedition is supposed to be very good, but also roughly 20 times as expensive as altium
23:16 <Ysjoelfir> its used in design. they are PCB layout programs
23:37 <hsn> why they got 3 ? altium not enough :D ?
24:59 <hsn> 4th / 11 .. thats neat .. interview after 2 weeks ..
25:29 <hsn> in here .. most are (same week)
27:05 <Ysjoelfir> "back in the days" they used exclusively zuken. which is... a POS today afaik. then they got one XPedition licence, but noticed that most customers nowadays want altium, so they got another one for that. now they have zuken for AFAIK one customer who still demands that, mentor xpedition for very complex projects, and altium for everyday work
28:18 <Ysjoelfir> and the other "company" is pretty special, which is why I am not allowed to talk much about it :P which is also a reason why its with a fixed date. I couldn't choose. they said when I have to come.
28:26 * Ampera sneezes profusely at Ysjoelfir 
29:28 <Ysjoelfir> ew
29:58 <K> hello
30:06 <Ampera> just watched a video with a guitarist, all the strings on his guitar broke at once
30:42 * Ysjoelfir wipes away Ampera's snot
30:44 <Ysjoelfir> hi K
30:54 <Ysjoelfir> that must feel.... painful
30:59 <Ysjoelfir> did he have knifes as fingernails?
31:08 <Ampera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i299qQc7bSg
48:31 <Halcyon> Brushy no-string?
56:25 <hsn> Ysjoelfir, hope u get what u want ..
56:44 <Ysjoelfir> If not I'll just take what I want :D
56:50 <Ysjoelfir> also, hi Halcyon :)
57:44 <hsn> Ysjoelfir, are u aware of iec 61508 ?
58:24 <Ysjoelfir> I know that it exists, but I don't know what it contains out of my head. why?
59:09 <hsn> just somthing im into .. didnt understand how to calculate risk reduction stuff ..
59:10 <hsn> :D
59:17 <Ysjoelfir> ah :D
02:47 <hsn> the safety stuff make software complicated i think
02:50 <hsn> very much
04:39 * Ampera throws chicken/mushroom stroganov on gemelli at Halcyon 
04:51 <hsn> Ampera,
04:56 <Ampera> Ampera,
04:58 <hsn> eevblog convert 20awg to mm
04:58 <EEVBlog> I can't seem to convert between those two units.
05:11 <hsn> this is most usefull conversion :D
05:27 <Ampera> I'll keep in mind whenever I go and work more on the bot
05:35 <hsn> thanks
05:56 * Ysjoelfir loves gemelli
06:33 * Ysjoelfir is now hunger
06:36 <Ysjoelfir> *hungry
08:07 <Ysjoelfir> I still love my slightly cute looking relais. :D https://snipboard.io/Pxzwuh.jpg
11:22 <hsn> Ysjoelfir, https://snipboard.io/cg1ist.jpg
22:19 <Ysjoelfir> works for me?
58:35 <steve30> My Mum's new Panasonic DECT phones have a "talking caller-id"
58:42 <Ysjoelfir> huh?
58:44 <Ysjoelfir> whats that?
59:03 <steve30> It speaks the caller-id :/
59:20 <Ysjoelfir> oh. that... was pretty obvious, but not for me somehow :D
00:37 <Ysjoelfir> let me guess. you can't tell it how to pronounce stuff?
01:17 <steve30> It actually seemed quite intelligible. It will be super-annoying though so I hope its possible to turn it off.
09:04 <Ysjoelfir> "Its steve calling!" .... "its steve calling!"
09:26 <Ysjoelfir> or.. "Its cutie snuggie sweety mousy calling!"
19:24 <Ysjoelfir> So I just had a debate with mr. head of dev who was like "why you use a (NO) relay on that high power line and invert it instead of using a (NC) relay?". Someone has an idea why I use a high quality (NO) relay on a high power line which has up to 26A of (mostly inductive) current and gets switched pretty frequently, instead of a (NC) relay of the same manufacturer?
19:30 <Ysjoelfir> https://www.te.com/deu-de/product-1558661-3.html NO relay
19:36 <Ysjoelfir> https://www.te.com/deu-de/product-1558662-3.html NC relay
20:31 <Ysjoelfir> hsn, tell me that this is not rocket science to see why I chose a NO relay there :D
22:52 * Halcyon burps at Ampera
23:09 * Ampera smacks Halcyon like the bitch he is
23:45 * Ysjoelfir smacks Halcyon and Ampera for ignoring my very important question and instead starting sexytime in the chat :P
24:16 <Ampera> I have no clue about relays
24:19 <Ampera> what do you want me to do about it
24:42 * Halcyon slaps Ysjoelfir because he enjoys it, then wonders what he is babbling about
24:49 <Ysjoelfir> xD
25:15 * Ysjoelfir invites T3sl4 to join the party
25:36 * Ysjoelfir pets the steve30
26:01 <Halcyon> Depends on the application I guess? But in high current applications, I would think normally open is desirable?
26:09 * T3sl4 ticks Ysjoelfir's relay
27:14 <Ysjoelfir> you wouldn't have had to answer that xD I was just mocking you :P But T3sl4 needs to, because he knows everything!
27:34 * T3sl4 makes a "money" gesture
27:40 <Ysjoelfir> xD
27:42 <Halcyon> T3sl4 is S-M-R-T
27:58 * steve30 purrs at Ysjoelfir 
28:04 <Ysjoelfir> Nah, mr. head of dev won't pay for his education, T3sl4
28:06 <Halcyon> I would love for someone to design a product with that model number :P
28:10 <steve30> I'm just enjoying a pint of beer
28:13 <Halcyon> SMRTSMART
28:27 * Ysjoelfir keeps Halcyon's wish in mind
28:33 <T3sl4> steve30, not a coffee stout? :P
28:44 <Halcyon> steve30, since when do you drink?
28:59 <T3sl4> Ysjoelfir, head won't pay for your education? shitty
29:58 <steve30> I've been drinking beer since I was little
31:33 <T3sl4> that.... explains something probably???
33:03 <steve30> I grew up on my Dad's homebrew :p
33:03 <hsn> wait
33:26 <hsn> there is a failing relay .. welded contact .. on high currents .. when does it happen .. at closing ?
33:41 <hsn> or at ... running ..
34:40 <hsn> also Ysjoelfir do u have the answer actually ? :D
37:41 <hsn> anyway .. i would prefer NO .. because i like to provide "mental safety" ..
38:36 <hsn> internal hsn to normal hsn: what if ur circuit goes off .. i dont want a 26A line running closed .. :D
44:37 <Ysjoelfir> re. sry, had to get a tea :P
46:21 <Ysjoelfir> yes, the answer is pretty simple: the NC relays are way less reliable. (Always comparing same series and ratings of course) according to their datasheet a NO relays for 20A is specified for 100.000 cycles, while the same relays as NC is specidied for 20.000 cycles.
46:59 <hsn> waw .. why is that difference
47:22 <Ysjoelfir> also, if you want to find a 30A rated NC relay in the same price range you have a pretty hard time. the same relay that can widthstand 30A and reactive loads as a NO is only specified as 20A resistive load only in the datasheet
47:43 <Ysjoelfir> *as a NC
48:51 <hsn> wait i ll open the datasheet to compare it with ur sentences
49:35 <Ysjoelfir> hsn - I'm no relay expert, but I think its partially because a NC relai is pushed by a probably pretty... variable (over time and temperature) spring force to the closed position and openes by electrical force, while the NO relais is opened by spring force and gets pressed hard against its mating contact by a repeatable, strong magnetic field.
49:55 <Ysjoelfir> also, arcs will play a role especially in inductive load situations
50:43 <hsn> ahaaa
52:59 <hsn> so the arcs in inductive.. will happen only in switch off ? or both switch off and on ?
54:10 <Ysjoelfir> well... what does an inductor do when you power it, and what does it do if you switch it off?
54:44 <hsn> well .. resist current change..
55:03 <Ysjoelfir> exactly
55:18 <Ysjoelfir> so what will happen when I have I = 0 and then close the switch? :)
55:28 <hsn> so .. at (opening) .. if there is no spike discharge thingy (flywheel) .. u will have the arcs ... buut why i ask ..
56:14 <hsn> becuase i've i=0 .. the momeny contact is close enough .. arcs will happen .. by voltage and distance ..
56:59 <hsn> and there is like "small resistance to cut that arc" because its high resist ?
57:42 <hsn> Ysjoelfir> so what will happen when I have I = 0 and then close the switch? :) >> it will arc ? :D
58:24 <Ysjoelfir> ok, another question. If I have I =.... some amps, switch is closed, and then I open it.
58:51 <hsn> if there is no discharge .. it will jump crazy volt .. and arc also ..
59:07 <Ysjoelfir> right. which arc will be much bigger?
59:17 <hsn> the no discharge
59:22 <hsn> opening
59:27 <Ysjoelfir> right.
59:35 <hsn> but why dont u just have discharge at the other end ?
59:49 <hsn> and both will become same arc issue then ? i guess
00:40 <Ysjoelfir> because I don't know the load in this case and I need a very specific impedance. when I add a snubber to kill the arc I a) don't know how to dimmension it as the load is unknown, b) I would disturb my impedance
02:01 <Ysjoelfir> T3sl4, have you ever worked with Zuken CR5000 and/or mentor Xpedition?
02:08 <T3sl4> no
02:48 <Ysjoelfir> hm. to bad. I would love to hear hands on experience as I might be forced to work with those some time in the future
03:33 <hsn> https://photos.app.goo.gl/QayVZy6EDsQAgiHG9
04:08 <hsn> ^ Ysjoelfir so at this case both are arc same ?
05:15 <T3sl4> you can pay me to buy and learn them and i can tutor you ;)
05:29 <hsn> lol
05:55 <Ysjoelfir> erm.... no thanks :D I don't have 200k for xpedition to spare. Mr. potential new employer can do that then ;P
05:58 <hsn> pay me also .. i quit my job and start leanring from tommorow :D
07:26 <T3sl4> you may be onto something. does mentor give bahrainese a discount? ;)
07:41 <Ysjoelfir> I somehow doubt that :D
08:03 <hsn> the thing is .. bahrain gvt wont come after my a$$ if i pirated it
08:35 <hsn> but i bought win 10 this year i try to become good guy
08:37 <Ysjoelfir> I have to admit, xpedition looks realy cool. I might get a totally legal copy of it and try it so that I can start easyer in the company, if they decide to hire me
11:32 <hsn> so Ysjoelfir and T3sl4 what u think about the arc and the tvs bi-directional ?
12:05 <Ysjoelfir> that should work to keep it tame in many cases
12:06 <T3sl4> better be a big TVS, but yes that largely suppresses arcing
12:46 <hsn> so .. arc will happen in both close and open with a tvs also .. but less .. right ?
13:04 <T3sl4> no effect on close
13:05 <hsn> if u switch AC .. at zero v .. then u get it at opening only .. right
13:06 <hsn> ?
14:48 <hsn> https://snipboard.io/o0HYPD.jpg
14:53 <hsn> this ppl ..
15:22 <Ysjoelfir> thats not very much :P
17:47 <hsn> all other google based ones .. look suspecious to mee
19:04 <Ysjoelfir> I wonder if the availability of pirated software decreases with the price of the software
20:13 <hsn> afaik there are lots of pirate ppl are getting paid to do specific software cracking
21:49 <Ysjoelfir> then please go on and find one of those guys and pay him :D
22:04 <hsn> does mentor provide time limited software?
22:20 <hsn> full features .. not demo ..
22:26 <hsn> ready to get cracked one :P
22:31 <Ysjoelfir> no idea?
23:36 <hsn> Ampera wanted to learn IDA pro few months ago
23:46 <hsn> so he can help :D
23:56 <Ysjoelfir> whats that?
24:07 <hsn> its a reverse engineering tool
24:30 <hsn> that also expensive and for sale :D ..
25:07 <hsn> https://www.hex-rays.com/products/ida/
25:33 Quit: Nothing\ ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
29:15 <hsn> Ysjoelfir, i love when u put somthing to discuss .. i find my self after 30 mins in some good text page ..
29:16 <hsn> https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/42131/how-to-design-an-rc-snubber-for-a-solenoid-relay-driving-an-inductive-load
29:30 <Ysjoelfir> hahaha :D
30:08 <Ysjoelfir> lunch time! \o/
31:13 <Halcyon> What's for lunch?
36:28 <hsn> Halcyon, my lunch is smelling other ppl lunch
36:41 <Halcyon> That doesn't sound ideal
37:02 <hsn> im hungry tired
37:14 <Halcyon> Speaking of tired, I should go to bed
47:27 * steve30 pounces onto Halcyon's bed
48:49 <Ysjoelfir> Halcyon, 2 chia breadrolls with strong danish cheese and bulgarian slamami
01:46 Quit: spark_gap ([email protected]) Connection closed
06:19 Join: spark_gap ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
43:16 <hsn> i made a bad comment again .. https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/528492/pid-controller-doubts
45:28 <Ysjoelfir> did you?
47:33 <hsn> i mean i should educate my self very well to be able to answer with proper words
50:44 <K> that is quite passable imho
57:33 <electrohead> o/
57:40 <Ysjoelfir> hi mr. head
57:48 <electrohead> hey
10:29 <Ampera> hsn, I've never heard of IDA pro, what makes you think I care anything about it
10:31 <hsn> hey mr head
10:32 <Ampera> you've got the wrong person
10:35 * Ampera kisses electrohead 
10:43 <hsn> Ampera, whaaaaaaaa?
10:56 <Ampera> I have no clue what IDA pro is
10:59 <hsn> u dnt know whaaa?
11:03 <Ampera> nope
11:05 <Ampera> never heard of it
11:15 <hsn> i thought u know .. didnt u say it few months ago ?
11:23 <hsn> or that was Halcyon ? no i dont think it was Halcyon
11:32 <Ampera> Wasn't me
11:45 <hsn> Ampera, ghaidara ? or did u wanted to study reverse engineering ?
12:08 <Ampera> I've never had any real interest in reverse engineering.
12:20 <T3sl4> ida pro, youda pro, we all da pro
12:24 <hsn> oh man dont play with me .. i have short memory but im sure i didnt imagine :D
12:32 <Ampera> Not playing, it wasn't me.
12:37 <Ampera> I don't even do electronics
12:39 <hsn> Halcyon, rescue me
12:49 <hsn> Ampera, its a software stuff
13:10 <Ampera> probably Halcyon then, as he's been getting into software reverse engineering
13:17 <Ampera> I have note.
13:22 <Ampera> er, not.
13:23 * electrohead hugs instead
13:36 <Ampera> you'd rather hug nobody than hug me
13:43 <electrohead> oh stfu
13:47 * electrohead hugs Ampera
13:50 <electrohead> there :P
14:26 <electrohead> hsn: you mean ghidra?
14:35 <hsn> yeeah
15:19 * T3sl4 hugs Ampera's face with his lips
15:27 <electrohead> lol
15:38 * Ampera inserts tongue into T3sl4's face
15:38 <coppice> Ampera: at some point everyone in software develops an interest in reverse engineering
15:57 <Ampera> coppice, I'd imagine quite often that's a very short point for most people
16:02 <Ampera> as it's a right pain in the ass
16:13 <electrohead> I've messed with ghidra a bit so far
16:16 <hsn> did u ever had pain in ass Ampera ?
16:20 <electrohead> quite fun to play with
16:31 <Ampera> the closest I've come to reverse engineering is the REST API for TFS, which isn't a closed API, just very poorly documented.
16:35 <coppice> sure its a PITA, and its challenging, so most people are bad at it
21:00 <T3sl4> hm, this high voltage rectifier has a hella slow turn-on
21:49 <T3sl4> like 2us for Vf(t) < 1.1 Vf(DC)
22:06 <T3sl4> it's also dropping 10V DC :>
22:08 * Ysjoelfir hands T3sl4 a selenium rectumfryer
22:39 * T3sl4 deep frys it
23:44 * Ysjoelfir swaps that for a EY500
23:53 <Ysjoelfir> there.
23:58 <Ysjoelfir> slow turn on time for you
23:59 <T3sl4> freaky, with the right forward-bias time (a bit over a microsecond) the reverse recovery does a double-tap
24:27 <T3sl4> Ysjoelfir: the only thing slow about that is the heater warmup time
24:39 <T3sl4> vacuum diodes are very fast, like schottky diodes
24:55 <T3sl4> but with almost no nonlinear capacitance
25:09 * Ysjoelfir was refering to the actual "TURN ON" time :P
25:21 <Ysjoelfir> = the heat up time
25:39 <T3sl4> that was a dimbulb idea
25:45 <Ysjoelfir> I know.
28:10 * hsn googles ey500
28:42 <Ysjoelfir> its a blyatiful piece of tech. though a bit hot from time to time
31:28 <T3sl4> oh actually, i'm probably not getting a double recovery waveform, it's just the clamp diode i've got in here
39:04 <T3sl4> wowie, i'm impressed this rig can even source the >50A Irr this horizontal output transistor draws
39:57 * hsn is intrested but knows nothing
40:17 <T3sl4> https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/Images/Diode_Recovery_Tester.pdf
40:32 * hsn listen to youtube music video with title: "you will forget ur name after you hear this song" lol
40:39 <K> there is no recovery, it is all a lie pushed by Big Diode
41:10 <hsn> https://youtu.be/PzFccmTGkwM << remind me my name if i forget it bcz of this
41:26 <T3sl4> hsn: hi george
41:40 <hsn> hello william
41:46 <hsn> aka TWM
43:43 Join: Jod ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
43:48 <hsn> T3sl4, does this work : https://snipboard.io/AOqb01.jpg ?
44:04 <hsn> with no input ?
44:09 <hsn> or feedback
46:03 <T3sl4> it has input?
47:05 <hsn> ah
47:44 <hsn> its not a pulldown .. its a ... reverse of it self and reverse of reverse of it self
47:45 <hsn> :D
48:16 <T3sl4> right, it's astable
48:38 <hsn> its a vibrator
49:35 <T3sl4> owo
51:07 Quit: Jod ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
52:59 * Ampera vibrates T3sl4 
53:19 <T3sl4> oOoOoWoOoOo
54:31 <hsn> T3sl4, the server is ur pc or some host company ?
54:45 <hsn> the website ^
54:50 <T3sl4> yes
54:57 <Ampera> good answer
55:33 <T3sl4> MJE13009 is rather well behaved, no snappy recovery even for shortish turn on
56:05 <hsn> Ampera, lol
56:15 <hsn> u know .. he makes me think alot somtimes ..
56:29 <hsn> like i try to figure out my english ..
56:38 <hsn> or how to parse the asnwer
58:42 <Ampera> thinking isn't a great idea
58:45 <Ampera> it can cause serious injury
58:51 <Ampera> you should think about that before you think
58:52 <Ysjoelfir> sink...wat?
59:11 <hsn> Ysjoelfir, sinking can injure u
59:19 * Ysjoelfir sinks
59:27 * T3sl4 sources ys
59:28 <T3sl4> Ysjoelfir:
59:29 * Ampera smacks Ysjoelfir far beyond the sea.
59:52 * Ysjoelfir gets sourced while sinking in the sea
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