#d&d - 2013-05-18 - AustNet Archive Project

// #d&d — 2013-05-18

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« 2013-05-17 2013-05-19 »
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14:08 <Mekkis> Just a couple of essentials for neophyte rogues:
14:08 <Mekkis>     Traps are much easier to spot and disarm once they've been been sprung. So always let the fighter go first.
14:08 <Mekkis>     When you strike from the shadows, timing is critical. Make sure victory is already assured before you blow your stealth.
14:08 <Mekkis>     The front and back of the party are generally well covered, so it's up to you to fearlessly guard the middle.
39:00 <Steven> yup....
38:21 <Steven> so whats the plan guys?\
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20:07 <Avatar> what's the plan?
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37:12 <Avatar> I never know whether to burn gold or prestige on 3rd level potions
44:37 <Avatar> might buy 4 sets of spring loaded wrist sheathes in case anyone else at the table doesn't have them
29:31 <Avatar> tough crowd
50:05 <Steven> i would have an opinion, but im sick and i dont care about anything.
52:11 <Avatar> you care
52:14 <Avatar> you say you don't but you do
52:20 niconorsk ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
55:12 <Steven> no man, right now... really dont.
55:35 <Avatar> what's wrong
56:36 <Steven> sick
57:00 <Steven> sinus, throat and chest, whole shabang-a-bang
57:04 <Kzar> That's no fun
57:06 <Kzar> Get better soon
57:32 <Steven> and avatar, you should rock out with something cool... whats your spending limit?
58:28 <Avatar> about 30k
58:32 <Avatar> getting a bracelet of second chances
58:43 <Avatar> my defences are kind of weak, my gun doesn't need extra damage
58:52 <Avatar> upgrading it to a +5 weapono is 18k though
58:55 <Avatar> cheaper than I thought
59:10 <Avatar> not sure I'll survive today
59:12 <Steven> uh..... you want to spend 15k on a 7 use item
59:17 * Steven slaps avatar
59:22 <Avatar> do you know what a bracelet of second chances does
59:42 <Steven> negates a crit or sneak attack as an immediate action 7 times
59:50 <Avatar> that is life saving
59:55 <Avatar> 7 times works out to be about 2k per use
59:59 * Steven slaps avatar
59:59 <Avatar> that isn't bad
00:10 <Steven> no you go and get a jingasu of the fortunate soul
00:31 <Avatar> what is that?
01:07 <Avatar> doesn't exist on d20pfsrd
01:12 <Avatar> or in UE
01:22 <Steven> soldier
01:28 <Steven> im sick, im a bit fuzzy
01:28 <Steven> http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/jingasa-of-the-fortunate-soldier
01:43 <Steven> its better then the bracer
01:48 <Steven> +1 luck ac
01:55 <Avatar> once per day :|
01:56 <Steven> negates a crit once per day as swift action
02:12 <Steven> er immediate action
02:34 <Steven> difference is this wont dissapear after 7 uses
02:54 <Steven> and you can buy 3 of them for the price of 1 of those bracers if you are that worried about bein crit/sneak attacked
03:15 <Avatar> I will have a think about that 
03:24 <Avatar> gotta go right now, game starts in 30 minutes
03:30 <Avatar> thanks for the tip
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53:32 <Mekkis> kapow is alive
55:45 <Mekkis> I do have browbeat
55:52 <Mekkis> just remember to target me with them
01:23 Brunius|M- ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
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02:58 <kapow> XP
03:07 <kapow> i want to play 4 in moderm gp
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05:30 <ShiftKeyGirl> So
05:38 <ShiftKeyGirl> I'm running a Fantasy L4D2 game
05:45 <ShiftKeyGirl> with a D100 system, Unknown Armies
05:50 <ShiftKeyGirl> Anyone interested?
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10:57 <kapow> whats l4d2?
13:04 <ShiftKeyGirl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XIle_kLHKU
13:06 <diebot> ShiftKeyGirl, Left 4 Dead 2 Trailer Cinematic Video
15:07 <kapow> right of course
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54:19 <Wrothmonk> Evening
57:08 Falang ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
57:16 <Mekkis> afternoon
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59:29 <Wrothmonk> Hey, does anyone have some arena-style maps for CA?
00:59 <Falang> like.. what.. gladiator?
02:05 <Wrothmonk> Yeah, needs to be big though, its for the true sorcery playtest.
03:08 <Falang> see if one of those suits your fancy
03:53 <Wrothmonk> Can you send the last four again, I got an error
04:15 <Wrothmonk> probably shouldn't have tried to download them all at once.
05:15 <Falang> I'm trying...
05:36 <Falang> are you set for passive?
05:42 <Falang> maye I can set for passive..
05:50 <Falang> forget how it works
07:23 <Wrothmonk> derp, sorry, got pulled away
08:32 <Falang> just set to auto accept
09:10 <Wrothmonk> I'm not sure how
09:47 <Wrothmonk> with this client that is
10:18 <Falang> son of a bitch.. probably me.. one sec.
11:43 <Wrothmonk> yeah, its weird. I downloaded 40/76 kb then instant error both times.
12:05 <Falang> I turned off fast send and set myself passive... passive might be a mistake but fast send off should help.  can you get this file?
12:26 <Wrothmonk> no pop-up
13:55 <Falang> damnit
13:59 <Wrothmonk> got it to 56 kb
14:11 <Wrothmonk> and 40kb
14:18 <Falang> oh fuck it. I have your email, one sec
14:30 <Wrothmonk> KK
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19:54 <Wrothmonk> aha! found the download options
20:03 <Wrothmonk> for some reason it was under "advanced"
25:17 <Falang> there
25:22 <Wrothmonk> Got it
26:43 <Wrothmonk> Looks like these will work pretty well.
27:22 <Falang> tavern might be best. an open fire, tables to hide behind, etc..
27:42 <Wrothmonk> I'm thinking tavern and maybe the round one enlarged.
28:18 <Wrothmonk> the round one can be for the level 5 guys. I believe they will need more room
37:33 <Wrothmonk> I have to say those were some of the easiest grid line-ups I have ever done...
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50:16 <Falang> Probably because some lazy jackass at Paizo didn't make them
51:10 <Falang> here's an idea, start the damn map on corners of the actual grid squares, not fragments of a grid square!
51:18 <Falang> that's why they're hard to line up
52:44 <Falang> Yo Shifty, what's up?
07:55 <Mekkis> time to give Paizo more money
11:02 <Falang> that's it slave! 
12:06 <Mekkis> yeah. I shouldn't bother running stuff, should I
12:49 <Hydrazine> I'm not telling you to be pro-Paizo, but is it right to mock other people for liking them?
14:04 <Hydrazine> I've been trying hard around here to maintain some dignity and respect for each other, without being too forceful about it. Am I completely screwing this up?
14:26 <Falang> I'm just giving mekkis a hard time, it amuses me, I really don't care that much.
14:44 <Falang> that's why I mainly give HIM a hard time.
15:39 <Mekkis> I'm fine to have a discussion about this sort of thing, but I fine it awfully obnoxious when I'm spending my time and money to provide an enjoyable experience for others, both online and offline, and you are there doing nothing but flaming and trolling.
16:35 <Falang> flaming?! Really?
17:01 <Hydrazine> I have my own negative opinions about PFS and Paizo. I don't play very much any more. I feel thats a sufficient way to express my stance on the matter.
17:08 <ShiftKeyGirl> 'Flaming and Trolling' are the two laziest criticisms for 'stuff that disagrees with me'.
17:09 <Falang> Heaven forbid someone might disagree with the endless justifications you try to scrape up, but I'm pretty sure I haven't flamed anything.
17:48 <Mekkis> I'm not trying to justify anything. But as I see it, you're close to a parasite here.
18:23 <ShiftKeyGirl> pfft
18:31 <Mekkis> and I feel I should probably step away from IRC for an hour or so before I say something else I will regret.
19:26 <Falang> Oh yes, clearly I haven't done anything helpful. There's not a test game tomorrow that I instigated by having a discussion and sharing things with Wroth is there?
19:48 <Falang> I didn't just give him maps either.
22:26 <Falang> I hadn't realized you took my teasing and prodding you so personally, I don't really see it that I've ever had a real argument in here with anybody.
24:07 <Falang> And I'll try my best not to suck away any more of your precious.. whatever it is that I'm parasiting.. though I'm betting with one less player there'd have been a lot less games taking place here over the past few weeks, whatcha think?
29:43 <Falang> You'd have been under requried numbers in the first game I played in, and several others, if not outright most, so I hardly consider that parasitism.
33:24 <Rignesis> ouch it turns out that nerds have feelings :_)
37:18 <Wrothmonk> Have you not heard of nerd rage rignesis?
39:21 <Wrothmonk> grr why must eve asteroids re-spawn at 6 in the morning... I'm not a morning person!
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45:00 * Rignesis flips a table
45:13 <Ulzef> here sorry
45:17 * Wrothmonk puts the table back
45:24 <Rignesis> ocd?
45:29 <Wrothmonk> yes
45:30 Ulzef is now known as Lintor
46:08 * Rignesis moves picture frame 1 degree clockwise
46:20 <Wrothmonk> I'm not THAT ocd
46:40 <Rignesis> ok
47:02 <Rignesis> lets see if someone notice that and freaks out :D
47:09 <Wrothmonk> XD
55:39 Lintor has quit (Quit: )
04:19 <Wrothmonk> well I'm heading to bed. The early ship gets the minerals...
04:30 <Wrothmonk> Goodnight
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57:47 <Mekkis> !feat bodyguard
57:52 <diebot> Mekkis, BODYGUARD [Combat]Prereq:  Combat Reflexes.  Your swift strikes ward off enemies attacking nearby allies.
57:52 <diebot> Benefit:  When an adjacent ally is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to attempt the aid another action to improve your ally's AC. You may not use the aid another action to improve your ally's attack roll with this attack.
57:52 <diebot> Normal:  Aid another is a standard action. Source: APG
58:09 <Mekkis> !feat in harm's way
58:12 <diebot> Mekkis, IN HARM'S WAY [Combat]Prereq:  Bodyguard.  You put yourself in danger's path to save your allies.
58:12 <diebot> Benefit:  While using the aid another action to improve an adjacent ally's AC, you can intercept a successful attack against that ally as an immediate action, taking full damage from that attack and any associated effects (bleed, poison, etc.). A creature cannot benefit from this feat more than once per attack. Source: APG
58:34 <Mekkis> !feat saving shield
58:35 <diebot> Mekkis, SAVING SHIELD [Combat]Prereq:  Shield Proficiency. Benefits: Whenever an adjacent ally is the target of an attack, you can, as an immediate action, grant that adjacent ally a +2 shield bonus to AC. You must be wielding a light shield, heavy shield, or tower shield to use this feat.  You deflect attacks that could mean your ally's death. 
58:36 <diebot> Benefit:  Source: APG
22:16 <Steven> hey hey
22:34 <Steven> well i still feel like shit
22:42 <Steven> but its a well rested feeling like shit
27:35 <Steven> i lol'd
27:36 <Steven> http://kneeslapperz.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/fr1.jpg
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08:13 <Bloodlust> afternoon all :)
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19:42 <Steven> so whats everybdy doin
32:52 <Avatar> didn't die!
32:59 <Avatar> now I have yet another character to level up.
35:03 <Avatar> don't know if I'm going to take an 11th level of gunslinger
36:03 <Steven> yay! what did ya play?
36:18 <Avatar> everwar 4
36:25 <Steven> more importantly did you take my advice and not buy those horrible bracers
36:35 <Avatar> those horrible bracers saved me today
36:44 <Avatar> there was some dumb catch with the ones with you recommended
36:48 <Avatar> 25% chance or some suc
36:49 <Avatar> h
36:51 <Steven> no
36:56 <Steven> there is NO rolling
37:04 <Steven> its automatically converted
37:09 <Avatar> or it looked retarded
37:15 <Avatar> what is a jingasa
37:32 <Steven> its a japanese helmet
37:37 <Avatar> one of these http://www.wbr.co.jp/img/jingasa.jpg
37:47 <Avatar> do you really think my gunslinger would be caught dead wearing one of those
37:48 <Steven> no
38:04 <Avatar> me neither
38:22 <Steven> not all of them have the pointed top
38:53 <Avatar> decision made now
38:53 <Steven> there are varying styles of them
39:03 <Steven> but seriously... the bracers sucked.
39:14 <Avatar> gunslingers don't get anything great beyond 10th level?
40:05 <Steven> imo
40:11 <Steven> gunslingers dont get much post 5
40:49 <Avatar> 11th level gunslinger gets deeds: guns don't break when they misfire, I can reload faster (redundant with free action alch catridges), I can deal bleed damage at the cost of a grit point (I do ~40 damage a round anyway)
41:31 <Avatar> at 15th level they get some cool shit but I don't think Buck will ever get there?
41:36 <Steven> yeah, you could have sunk 5 levels into fighter picked up an extra 3 or so feats
41:55 <Avatar> not 5 levels
41:56 <Steven> and been more powerful
41:57 <Avatar> you get some cool shit at 7th
42:02 <Avatar> and a bonus feat or two along the way
42:10 <Steven> meh, the deeds are actually not that great imo.
42:22 <Avatar> one is a damage-reduction overcoming one
42:27 <Avatar> very essential to a gunslinger
43:12 <Avatar> turns rolling a misfire from a 3 in 20 chance to a 3 in 160000 chance or something
43:52 <Avatar> is multiclassing into battle oracle good
44:19 <Steven> the DR one can be overcome by clustered shots
44:34 <Avatar> what's that, a feat
44:38 <Steven> yup
45:14 <Avatar> that doesn't tell the misfire chance to fuck off
45:34 <Steven> and the misfire can be overcome by the reliable weapon enhancement
45:55 <Avatar> no it can't
45:58 <Avatar> it can be reduced by 1
46:03 <Avatar> that is not the same thing
46:08 <kapow> reliable has higher levels
46:11 <kapow> that reduce it fruther
46:12 <Mekkis> what are the bracers?
46:13 <kapow> further*
46:20 <Avatar> bracelet of second chances
46:27 <Avatar> kapow: are you sure
46:34 <kapow> yes avatar
47:13 <Avatar> it can't be upgraded, you can put greater reliable on it for a +3 instead of a +1
47:36 <Avatar> my gun is a +1 holy seeking musket
47:42 <Avatar> so it's a +4 weapon already
47:48 <Avatar> upgrades are expensive
48:05 <Avatar> I don't want to tack on reliable to it anyway
48:20 <Avatar> my gun needs to misfire occasionally to keep my character balanced
48:30 <Steven> yeah, but the deed that you get at 11 that prevents your gun from blowing up sucks
48:42 <Avatar> which is why I'm considering forget gunslinger level 11
49:21 <Steven> its just my opinion, but theres really no reason to go pack 5 in gunslinger unless theres an archetype class ability you really want.
51:05 <Mekkis> Avatar, put a level into rogue! Get some sneak attack in!
51:19 <Avatar> I never snipe
51:26 <Mekkis> ok
51:29 <Mekkis> don't do that then
51:38 <Avatar> what about battle oracle
51:39 <Avatar> is that good
51:48 <Avatar> with no charisma
51:51 <Mekkis> I can't see Buck taking a flaw
51:55 <Mekkis> to be honest
51:56 <Avatar> probably a slightly important point
51:59 <Mekkis> I mean a curse
52:11 <Steven> i dont know whats a good two level dip for a gunslinger.
52:25 <Mekkis> Ranger is the obvious one
52:39 <Avatar> he's a high dex, high wis character
52:48 <Steven> maybe a tactician cleric?
52:51 <Mekkis> three-level dip into wizard or sorcerer?
52:59 <Mekkis> Transmuter
53:21 <Avatar> alchemist?
53:37 <Steven> Divine Strategist would allow you to always act in a surprise round
54:37 <Mekkis> don't think alchemist would be useful
54:56 <Steven> not really, alchemists need to be planned out before hand for a level dip.
56:26 <Mekkis> Pathfinder Delver?
56:41 <Mekkis> actually that looks pretty good
57:08 <Avatar> what book is that in
57:15 <Steven> seekers
57:44 <Steven> delver looks terrible
58:30 <Mekkis> is Shieldmarshal PFS legal?
58:31 <Steven> avatar is your sheet uploaded to the site?
58:57 <Avatar> just before it hit 11, yeah
59:22 <Mekkis> Avatar, look at Shieldmarshal
59:27 <Avatar> http://www.pfrpg.com.au/viewchar.php5?char=308
59:29 <Mekkis> Seems very Alkanstary
59:32 <Avatar> where is it
59:48 <Mekkis> Paths of Prestige
00:10 <Avatar> I don't have quick draw
00:17 <Mekkis> you have a feat at 11th
00:32 <Steven> how did you get living steel elven chain?
00:35 <Mekkis>    Danger Sense (Ex): At 2nd level, a shieldmarshal gains
00:35 <Mekkis> a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 his level, and can
00:35 <Mekkis> always act during a surprise round even if unaware of
00:35 <Mekkis> opponents.
01:19 <Avatar> maybe I should just get 2 levels of monk and get evasion
01:36 <Steven> elven Chain is a Mithril Chainmail and living steel isnt PFS legal
01:37 <Mekkis> do you need evasion?
01:53 <Steven> did you play a specific module?
01:54 <Avatar> everyone needs evasion
02:08 <Avatar> living steel is gone
02:19 <Avatar> that was a huge mistake in the first place, I didn't sell my armor
02:25 <Avatar> I got excited when it was mentioned at a con
02:52 <Avatar> I don't think I've refunded myself for that either
03:15 <Steven> well, you will be pleased to know that there is exactly one module where you can get a living steel item... so far.
03:23 <Steven> sadly you're out of level range for it.
03:39 <Avatar> I don't care that much
03:46 <Avatar> turned out to be less useful than I thought
04:58 <Steven> wow.... you took critical focus?
05:08 <Avatar> yeah that was a mistake
05:16 <Steven> serious mistake.
05:17 <Avatar> I wanted a crit build
05:26 <Avatar> I didn't realise that would make me a killing machine
05:40 <Steven> You need to GM at a big con and get yourself a rebuild lol
05:51 <Avatar> all of my characters need rebuilds man
06:05 <Avatar> can you actually get legal full rebuilds?
06:30 <Steven> yes, I am going to get 2 of them this year!
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07:04 <Steven> and then im not going to use them, cause i havent found a character that NEEDS a rebuild
07:20 <Avatar> I'll take them off you
07:46 <Steven> i mean Ausk could use a bit of fine tuning, but i dont really think im going to play him.
09:43 <Mekkis> Steven, I know someone who would REALLY benefit from a rebuild
09:54 <Steven> whos that?
09:58 <Mekkis> Brunius, 
10:07 <Mekkis> he has a lovely 6th-level rogue
10:13 <Steven> no
10:25 <Steven> if he was dumb enough to make a rogue he deserves a bad build.
10:46 <Mekkis> he wasn't
10:50 <Mekkis> he started it years ago
11:15 <Mekkis> isn't that what a rebuild is supposed to be for?
11:21 <Avatar> he actually died and then someone spent 6000gp to res him
11:32 <Avatar> during blood under absalom
11:33 * Steven facepalms
11:52 <Steven> well, sounds like he needs to GM at a Con
13:14 <Mekkis> Sure. Do you know if it's available for any cons within, say, 2000 miles of where he lives?
13:29 <Steven> i dunno where he lives
13:45 <Mekkis> Melbourne
13:49 <Avatar> australia
13:50 <Mekkis> Victoria
13:51 <Steven> but i would be willing to bet at a sufficiently large convention where they offer GM support
13:52 <Mekkis> Australia
14:12 <Steven> they might have it available for gms to pick
14:25 <Mekkis> when was it released?
14:31 <Mekkis> what's it called?
14:36 <Mekkis> and what's the actual text?
14:40 <Steven> its not released yet
14:52 <Steven> its going to be released
21:25 <Steven> still cant believe you bought those bracers man.
22:38 <Avatar> those bracers will save my life
23:50 <Steven> for 6 more charges.
24:03 <Avatar> 7 charges
24:12 <Steven> you used one today i thought
24:19 <Avatar> no I tried using one today
24:28 <Avatar> but you can't use immediate actions before it's your turn in initiative
24:42 <Avatar> so I got critted and then had to take it anyway
24:53 <Avatar> even with the fucking bracelet
25:09 <Hydrazine> So it'll save your life.. if you go first?
25:15 <Avatar> yeah
25:49 <Steven> they are seriously a bad item, 15k for 7 charges of negating a crit/sneak attack
26:10 <Avatar> if you come up against a couple of rogues in an encounter, it will save your life over and over
26:17 <Mekkis> hah
26:51 <Steven> yeah... which will burn through the item rediculously fast
26:51 <Mekkis> if you come across a couple of rogues in an encounter... they'll get off two sneak attacks each, maximum
26:57 <Mekkis> and that's because you're flat-footed.
27:44 <Steven> if you were worried about getting sneak attacked you should have got the jingasa and picked up a handful of Gut-Stones
27:54 <Avatar> I provoke AoOs a lot
28:11 <Avatar> what are gut-stones
28:14 <kapow> think we would get a rebuild mekk if we gm one of our cons at some point?
28:21 <kapow> is it just gming at any con or what?
28:28 <Steven> let me find a link
28:29 <Avatar> kapow: it is in america 
28:37 <Steven> http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/steadfast-gut-stone
28:41 <kapow> yes but say we where going to pax
28:42 <kapow> to gm
28:43 <Avatar> if you go to america you MIGHT get it
28:53 <kapow> or another con for here
29:25 <Steven> gut stone damn sight cheaper than the bracers per use
35:01 <Mekkis> kapow, you know, since I'm not a VO, I'll tell you how to get a rebuild
35:11 <Mekkis> You rebuild your character, and you don't tell anyone you did.
35:22 <Mekkis> and deny rebuilding if anyone asks
35:32 <Avatar> because that's what mekkis does all the time
35:41 <Mekkis> if someone has a problem, you tell them "Don't be a jerk"
35:48 <Avatar> haha
35:53 <Avatar> that does get flaunted a lot doesn't it
35:59 <Mekkis> it's called the "don't ask don't tell" system we currently have in place.
36:47 <Avatar> the thing is 
36:52 <Avatar> if you rebuild when you're not supposed to
36:55 <Avatar> you're cheating yourself
37:29 <Mekkis> it depends on the motivation behind the rebuild.
38:05 <Mekkis> what I mean is, it happens when a small group have reached, say, level 5, and are just starting to play the higher-tier adventures.
38:37 <Mekkis> And it becomes clear that one of the character is really ineffective and can't really get back on the curve.
39:10 <Mekkis> Does that player create a new character, burn the old one, and miss out on playing with the other players he's previously played with?
39:21 <Mekkis> Or force those players to create new characters too?
39:24 <Steven> as a VO its my duty at this point to say that breaking the rules of pfs can result in the deactivation of your PFS number or the inability to play at certain peoples tables.
42:48 <Mekkis> This player has invested at least 100 hours into his character, and his /legal/ choices are to throw it away and start a new character, possibly making it hard for others to play their characters; or continue playing a character he won't have much fun playing.
43:15 <Mekkis> This has come up, and it does take a certain amount of... bravery... to throw away a character you're played for 12 sessions.
49:07 <Steven> sadly rebuilding just isnt allowed except for the rebuild at the junction from level 1 to level 2
49:26 <Mekkis> I know. I also believe it should be.
49:52 <Mekkis> I agree that some conditions should apply, but I believe that there should be methods to solve this issue.
50:16 <Mekkis> Steven, if a player came to you with that issue, what would you say?
51:23 <Steven> Continue to play the character or start a new one.
51:23 <Steven> rebuilding is not allowed.
52:58 <Mekkis> that's a pretty jerk move
53:02 <Mekkis> :P
53:39 <Steven> its the rules.
54:10 <Steven> being a jerk would be saying, Sucks to be you noob, learn to build characters better, request denied!
58:06 <Falang> Jerk moves.. terrible..
15:01 <Mekkis> like saying: <Steven> if he was dumb enough to make a rogue he deserves a bad build.
15:10 <Mekkis> ?
19:40 <Falang> that's pretty jerky alright.
19:53 <Falang> I guess it just goes around :)
25:01 <ShiftKeyGirl> It's a great game design move to make certain characters obiviously better than others and not fixing it despite years of time.
25:10 <ShiftKeyGirl> They're called 'Trap' choices.
25:39 <ShiftKeyGirl> See; 'Dark Souls'
25:56 <ShiftKeyGirl> Dark Souls is a whole game of obfuscating design and trap choices.
26:51 <Mekkis> If you can choose two of four options, and choosing option A works well with option B and option C works well with option D, would you consider choosing option A and option C a trap?
29:25 <ShiftKeyGirl> No, not that what you said is in any way related to what I said, given that none of them are bad options, you fuckwit?
30:03 <ShiftKeyGirl> All we know is that some options are better with others.
30:16 <ShiftKeyGirl> Not that any of them are bad.
39:25 <Steven> back, and yes... if you build a rogue in my book you deserve everything you get.
49:11 <Steven> hey avatar did you ever get your boon from the kickstarter?
11:23 <ShiftKeyGirl> people that play classes that are presented as equal choices, but aren't due to poor game design, are bad people
11:25 <ShiftKeyGirl> it's true
11:58 <Falang> I'm personally up for stoning them to death, but that's just me.
14:44 <Steven> with the rogue, its basically you need hide in plain sight to be anywhere near effective... which rogues dont get.
15:08 <Steven> my first character ever was going to be a rogue, i researched it and was like... well fuck this Cleric it is.
16:13 <Steven> its a disturbing trend in PFS right now, people choosing things without properly researching them and then demanding leadership change things so that it works the way they want it to.
16:56 <Falang> So it would be wrong to suggest that these issues should be addressed properly by the people in charge? how dare someone demand that!
17:13 <ShiftKeyGirl> yeah, how dare people demand good game design
17:26 <ShiftKeyGirl> down with good game design
17:34 <ShiftKeyGirl> up with system mastery over skill
18:15 <Falang> Note to self.. make new game system based on accounting..
18:26 <Avatar> Steven: yeah I talked about it the other morning
18:32 <Steven> ah cool
18:42 <Avatar> don't want to burn it on a level 11 character
18:59 <Avatar> will probably give it to my level 3 alchemist
30:46 <Mekkis> steven: I agree that if I build a rogue, I deserve anything I get, because I Should Know Better.
31:01 <Steven> the issues are adressed properly by the people in design department by selecting solutions which work in most situations without becoming overly complicated.  Occationally some squeek through
32:30 <Steven> but considering the amount of content they put out, i think they do a great job
32:30 <Mekkis> But if someone whose first exposure to pathfinder, I think it's doing a disservice.
32:57 <Mekkis> and honestly, giving rebuild boons to tier 1 GMs is giving it to the wrong people.
33:17 <Steven> their first exposure to PFS any responsable GM will tell them about the rebuild and how terrible rogues are.
33:30 <Steven> I think its going to be able to just handed off.
33:47 <Steven> which very likely is what im going to do with them.
34:13 <Steven> and i think its going to the right people considering the work im putting in for Paizocon and Gencon
36:08 <Steven> paizocon is a month and a half away and ive already prepped the games twice.
38:52 <Steven> by the time it actually starts i think ill have already put in about 30hrs in on it.
39:03 andrey has quit (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
41:26 <Mekkis> if rogues are that bad, why not ban them and alloww every rogue a rebuild
41:39 <Falang> That's what I'm thinking, why make them PFS legal?
41:48 <Steven> because, a level dip of rogue is actually rather good.
42:28 <Falang> I mean every adventure I've seen is stacked and designed to prevent rogues from having any effectiveness. It's all 'the second the players enter the room etc etc attacks'. 
42:51 <Falang> and you gotta play it the way it's written.
43:05 <Steven> thats because they usually dont do the correct things to get by unnoticed
43:19 <Falang> No, if it says you get attacked when you enter, you get attacked.
43:35 <Falang> I read the text for that adventure after we played it, with the animated statue
43:51 <Steven> I've been in groups where we have completely neutralized half the encounters
44:44 <Steven> just by stealthing around.
45:35 <Steven> what game falang?
46:07 <Mekkis> Steven, but you've already admitted that you don't really have a use for a rebuild boon...
46:25 <Steven> yeah, which means i get to give it away to whom i want
46:26 <Mekkis> wouldn't you rather something you could use?
46:45 <Falang> I forget the name.. the tower, part of it was underwater/
47:11 <Steven> nah, im going there to help grow the PFS community
47:18 <Steven> and meet some VO friends of mine
47:21 <Falang> tonguey ghoul thing at the end
47:42 <Steven> yeah you have to fight the devourer... its the boss
48:00 <Steven> however the construct can be avoided by wearing a holy symbol of nethys
48:06 <Falang> anyway, I was literally the only person that bothered to use stealth in almost every adventure.
48:12 <Falang> I know that, I just said I read it.
48:35 <Steven> can also be avoided by some creative solutions
48:54 <Falang> mostly it's kicking in doors like a SWAT team and doing battle.. and don't even try to say otherwise, I watched it.
49:16 <Steven> Games can be won that way
49:27 <Steven> but you can also do it other ways
49:30 <Steven> with some finesse
49:39 <Falang> Yes, but that's irrational character behavior. It's fine for using player knowledge.
49:56 <Mekkis> Ulzef and Deceased aced Race for Runecarved Key using stealth
50:12 <Steven> still wish i had gone to gencon last year
50:14 <Falang> characters don't think "oh well i've got Evasion and tons of hitpoints and CCW potions.. I'll be fine", they don't want to die.
50:47 <Mekkis> we managed to complete 4 out of the six missions without a single attack
51:00 <Falang> I don't think PFS encourages good player habits, I think it's quite the opposite actually.
51:19 <Steven> way to go mekk!
51:45 <Mekkis> it was cool.
51:50 andrey ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
51:59 <Steven> all depends on how you want to play your character
52:54 <Steven> i have a character thats all bust down doors
53:00 <Steven> no finesse
53:32 <Mekkis> there are times when stealth is useful. There are also times when kicking down the door is a better choice
55:14 <Falang> And you'll never know which is which! 
55:34 <Falang> Which is why you go with stealth by default.
56:48 <Steven> yeah sealth when possible and be ready to rock moments notice
57:55 <Falang> as I was saying, I never saw that happen, I think the first time anybody used stealth was in Master of the Fallen Fortress.. and I think it was probably me.
58:51 <Steven> im seriously thinking of trimming my beard down.
59:26 <Mekkis> sure, but not everyone's character would try to hide.
59:47 <Mekkis> plus, you need to know who you're hiding from
01:52 <Falang> No you don't, you're hiding from everything, you're the one in enemy territory, they're the ones with prepared defenses and ambushes and traps... and you can't hide!
02:43 <Mekkis> since you need cover or concealment to hide, you can't necessarily hide from everything
03:07 <Falang> you can try. and you can be silent if doors are closed and sight isn't an issue, like MotFF.
03:22 <Mekkis> sure
04:21 <Falang> Stealth is critically important, and makes the difference between getting slaughtered by an ambush or being the ambushers and doing the slaughtering, that's why it pisses me off that it's broken for so long.
05:15 <Falang> I very fondly remember old adventures like Keep on the Borderlands and whatnot, sending the 'thief' down the hall to listen at a door so we'd know what was on teh other side, I mean shit, we had like 4 hitpoints each. can't screw around!
08:49 <Steven> you can still do that, but you gotta be one ballsy fuck
10:03 <Steven> to go down a hallway all by yourself with the rest of the group 30+ feet away
11:31 <Steven> specially if its a naga on the other side of the door.
11:40 <Falang> It was just as dangerous then, probably more so, without the benefits of mapping and withdraw actions and whatnot.
13:44 <Falang> but somebody had to do it
13:56 <Falang> (even when they argued they didn't want to)
15:00 <Steven> yeah i'd just be like, welp eat a dick im not doin it.
15:06 <Steven> infact... ive said those exact words
15:26 <Falang> then you'd remember what the tavern wenches would say later too... no money, no honey!
15:33 <ShiftKeyGirl> falang
15:38 <ShiftKeyGirl> do i need to chant
15:55 <Falang> yes, praise lord cthulhu.
15:59 <ShiftKeyGirl> 'SYSTEM MASTERY! SYSTEM MASTERY! SYSTEM MASTERY!'
16:03 <ShiftKeyGirl> over and over
16:12 <ShiftKeyGirl> to get you in the mindset of these people
16:17 <Falang> you can try it, but it's not recommended.
16:45 <Falang> wait, I think you already did that earlier.
16:50 <Falang> so no.
17:13 <Steven> it wouldnt matter.
18:38 <Falang> He means it's already too late.
18:45 <kapow> we should play a game ^_^
18:54 <Falang> Can't be saved, only way to be sure is to nuke it from orbit, etc.
19:26 <kapow> Steven where do you stand on an alchemist throw bombs using two weapon fighting?
19:29 <kapow> is it legal
19:33 <kapow> or is it not?
20:02 <Steven> not legal last i checked.
20:11 <Falang> er.. like two bombs at a time?
20:22 <kapow> yeah
20:34 <kapow> what causes it not to be legal steven?
20:37 <Falang> I can't imagine that being legal, isn't it like a Ex or something?
20:38 <Steven> Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity
20:54 <Falang> the bombs aren't treated as 'objects' that you could wield anyway to my knowledge
21:07 <Falang> just a special ability
21:16 <kapow> yes but with fast bombs drawing and creating becomes a free action
21:23 <kapow> and you can do as many as you can use in around
21:23 <Falang> can you even give one to somebody else to throw?
21:29 <kapow> no
21:39 <Falang> then you can't dual wield it
22:16 <kapow> and why do you say that?
22:58 <Falang> don't get me wrong, I think it's kinda lame, but they're not objects, they're a representation of a special ability, and as steven said they take a standard action.
23:11 <Falang> if it's not a 'weapon' then weapon feats won't apply
23:38 <kapow> it is a weapon
23:40 <Falang> at least that's my common sense view on it, I'm not going to dig in a book..
23:43 <kapow> it's treated as a thrown weapon
23:52 <kapow> with the same categorization as tanglefoot bags
23:53 <kapow> etc
24:11 <Falang> treated as is not is. you can't give it to someone else though, as you could with a tanglefoot bag. it's more like a mini fireball that you're casting.
24:17 <kapow> Fast bombs: An alchemist with this discovery can
24:17 <kapow> quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one
24:17 <kapow> in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw
24:17 <kapow> additional bombs as a full-round action if his base
24:17 <kapow> attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional
24:18 <kapow> attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a
24:22 <kapow> ranged weapon.
25:08 <Falang> maybe if you had rapid shot, I could see it being argued, but not with two weapon fighting.
25:09 <Steven> then you could attack as if your bab was 6/1
25:43 <Falang> just priming/creating the 'bomb' would logically take both hands.
25:45 <Steven> but not as per two weapon fighting
26:52 <Falang> were I creating the rules I'd just have you creating them in advance, not 1 second before you throw it, and you could give it to other people, and maybe throw them with TWF, but I'm not.
27:25 <Falang> (then you'd just be walking around with fantasy nitroglycerin strapped to your chest)
27:33 <ShiftKeyGirl> Infusions and Bombs are fucking stupid
27:41 <ShiftKeyGirl> You can't give them to other people?
27:42 <Steven> praying that no one hits you right falang?
27:45 <ShiftKeyGirl> Stupid as shit.
27:55 <Steven> no its balanced shifty.
28:45 <ShiftKeyGirl> How is it any more or less balanced that a cleric buffing someone, as they get a higher level of buffs anyway?
29:04 <Steven> because alchemists get access to things clerics dont.
29:58 <ShiftKeyGirl> Okay, the Alchemist gets more buffs. Why can't it become a class that gives out buffs?
30:07 <Steven> it can be
30:12 <Steven> with a discovery
30:25 <Steven> called.... ready for this.... Infusion
31:18 <Falang> I haven't read into the infusion thing, the whole class didn't sound very fun to me. Sounds like something out of a damn mmorpg.
33:44 <Falang> along with the gunslinger
44:19 <Falang> actually I don't object outright to the use of guns overall, it might be okay as long as it's not crazy popular and everybody has one, but the idea that one class is the only one that can get a gun and use it is kinda silly.
44:37 <Falang> I read The Guardians of The Flame after all..
44:58 <Falang> Which would make THE. MOST. AWESOME. RPG. EVAR!
47:01 <Falang> they actually had a revolver by the end of the series, that was sweet.
55:09 <Falang> That was neat, they even had magical gunpowder, very clever
09:27 <ShiftKeyGirl> Gunslinger's problem is in balance
09:29 <ShiftKeyGirl> It sucks
10:12 <ShiftKeyGirl> Alchemist is fun, and would be better without the whole 'THESE POTIONS ARE PART OF YOUR SOOOOOOOOOUL' aspect.
10:33 <ShiftKeyGirl> http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/fast-bombs
10:35 <ShiftKeyGirl> by the way
10:46 <ShiftKeyGirl> apparently you can throw multiple bombs per round
13:04 <kapow> shifty
13:12 <kapow> there is a discovery to give extracts to other people
14:03 <kapow> and falang gunslinger's aren't the only class that can
14:05 <ShiftKeyGirl> Yeah, I saw
14:11 <kapow> you can get and wield guns without being a gunslinger
14:14 <kapow> it just requires feats
14:19 <kapow> and archetypes for paladin
14:22 <kapow> and wizard
14:30 <kapow> and i think one of the other classes has it too
15:20 <Steven> yup, requires amatuer gunslinger, and exotic weapon prof
15:25 <Steven> just to fire the gun.
15:33 <kapow> yeah
15:36 <kapow> i know it's shitty
15:43 <kapow> but i was pointing out it was do able
15:54 <Steven> and unless you are gunslinger you're praying to god you dont misfire
16:22 <kapow> lol
16:32 <kapow> or your paying the +3
16:36 <kapow> to make sure you can't
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18:20 <Steven> which is a heavy tax just to fire a 1d8 or 1d12 of damage.
18:37 <kapow> certainly is
18:48 <kapow> my thoughts are if you want to attack vs touch ac
18:55 <kapow> play an alchemist or a wizard
19:02 <Steven> alchemist, caster, cleric, gunslinger
19:12 <Steven> otherwise get the fuck on down the road.
19:25 <kapow> lol
19:39 <kapow> admittedly though i do want to see a rifle wielding paladin
19:45 <kapow> smiting things with like a musket or something
20:16 <kapow> and can you imagine if zen archer didn't specify bows
20:23 <kapow> if it was with ranged weapons
20:46 <Steven> meh, i built a paladin gunslinger
20:49 <Steven> well...
21:03 <Steven> technically it was a paladin/Oracle/Mysterious Stranger
21:34 <Steven> cha to saves, ac and damage.... broken.
22:13 <ShiftKeyGirl> SYSTEM MASTERY
22:59 <Steven> shifty, i dont get your caps locking of system mastery.
23:15 <ShiftKeyGirl> Required system mastery is awful
23:22 <ShiftKeyGirl> It penalizes newer players
23:40 <ShiftKeyGirl> or players that just want to have fun without memorizing books worth of crap
24:08 <Steven> i assume you of course are insinuating PFS demands requried system mastery
24:08 <kapow> but
24:15 <kapow> when you find the stuff in the books worth of crap
24:18 <kapow> isn';t it exciting
24:20 <kapow> and new!
24:26 <kapow> and your all like WOW this is awesome!
24:30 <kapow> think of it in a positive way
24:35 <ShiftKeyGirl> It most /definitely/ does require system mastery.
24:44 <Steven> how much pfs have you played shifty?
24:57 <ShiftKeyGirl> I've read through them.
24:59 <ShiftKeyGirl> They do.
25:05 <Steven> so you've yet to play a PFS game?
25:21 <ShiftKeyGirl> Why would you want to after reading through one of those adventures?
27:32 <Steven> Well, perhaps before criticizing what we enjoy playing here, you should go out and actually play a game.
28:40 <Steven> Hey kapow, i dont remember exactly but werent you in a region with no Lodge?
28:47 <Steven> or did you find one?
29:03 <Wrothmonk> It hardly requires system mastery. I have been playing for only 10 months and I've only lost one character.
29:07 <kapow> as in for?
29:22 <Steven> a lodge is a local PFS group
29:27 <kapow> no i go with mekkis
29:28 <Steven> its what we call them in the States
29:41 <kapow> see lodge to me means something completely different
30:30 <kapow> Daniel Flood is our venture
30:35 <Steven> i feel ya man, when i was younger it meant the place my dad went and drank with his friends
30:49 <kapow> yeah
30:52 <kapow> thats what it means to me
31:02 <Steven> bout a year ago it meant the place i went and played PFS and had a great time.
31:22 <Steven> now it means the place i go and argue with the rules lawyers who have taken up residence...
31:45 <Steven> i HAD to take a break on wednesday, course it was justified by the fact i had to drive my dad around for his doctor visits
31:48 <kapow> poor bastard
32:09 <kapow> does your dad still attend?
32:15 <Steven> Have this guy who is trying to rules lawyer a Ring of Decoy
32:58 <Steven> saying because it doesnt specify its as per the spell invisible you go invisible for 3 rounds that acts like greater invisibilility
33:53 <Steven> he tried to talk his way into just whenever he is moving just Withdraw actions
34:03 <Steven> and its like.... uh... okay that doesnt proc your ring you know that right?
34:14 <Steven> and hes like yes it does, im withdrawing
34:43 <Steven> and we're like no, you can only withdraw in combat and only when in melee combat as per the language in withdraw
35:20 <Steven> and when i took wednesday off
35:30 <Steven> he tried it on Walter.
35:40 <Steven> btw, Walter is my VC
36:05 <Steven> and no my dad no longer attends his Lodge, gave up drinking bout.... 7 years ago i think.
36:16 <Steven> better play it safe and say 5
41:15 <Steven> i've recieved like 4 Reins Request... no clue whos attacking them
41:44 <Steven> wrong window
45:56 <Mekkis> you can't withdraw when you're not in melee?
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