// #d&d — 2013-05-17
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00:00:25 <Falang> well you're not doing it right this minute I hope?
00:00:30 <Falang> Otherwise I'm interested..
00:00:52 <Rignesis> she is hungry for rpgs
00:01:06 <Rignesis> i would be in if i had any experience
00:01:59 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Not right now
00:02:06 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> But at some point
00:02:07 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Yes
00:02:35 <Falang> I'm always up for something different, so count me in.
00:02:38 <andrey> what's the plot hook of the disappeared?
00:02:58 <Mekkis> Someone has disappeared. YOu need to find out who and why.
00:03:01 <Falang> Though I'm sure you could probably round up a whole town or something out of one of the available modules and use that as setting, maps, npcs etc.
00:03:12 <Falang> "And you have 24 hours to do it!"
00:03:20 <Mekkis> probably
00:03:22 <Mekkis> I haven't played it
00:03:45 <Rignesis> the lady
00:04:06 <Rignesis> fellow pathfinder
00:04:46 <Mekkis> I suppose the first question regarding the setting is, How did the zombies start appearing? Was it sudden? Was it a little at first? Did they just march into town and start eating people?
00:05:09 <Mekkis> If you asked a guy on the street "What happened" what would be the response?
00:06:27 <Rignesis> "Brainzzzz!!!"
00:07:03 SHIFTKEYGIRL has quit (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
00:08:30 <Falang> *sniffle* there will never be another one like her..
00:08:34 SHIFTKEYGIRL ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
00:08:40 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> okay
00:08:43 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> internet hiccup
00:08:51 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> anyway
00:09:11 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i'm uploading the map to mediafire, because anywhere else has compression issues
00:10:10 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> http://www.mediafire.com/view/?y3z4r3zyu08h773
00:10:12 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> boop
00:11:00 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Game starts in Speybury, which is the centre of the world, both metaphorically and nearly literally
00:11:02 <Falang> hmmm.. this.. coconut sugar has an interesting flavor..
00:11:19 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> everywhere else is up for grabs
00:11:30 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i have one rule
00:11:38 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> don't be a fucking dickhead
00:11:38 <Rignesis> yes
00:11:58 <Rignesis> define - dickhead
00:12:05 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i shouldn't have to
00:12:42 <Falang> heh
00:13:39 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> any ARG race is permitted
00:13:55 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> run race builder stuff past me
00:14:12 <Falang> level range? is this a one shot thing, a module, a campaign, what?
00:14:21 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> hmmm
00:14:22 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> level 2
00:14:25 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> ALSO
00:14:29 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mCkLGrX30XBuZhQLaddour8GbrXdxlSAnh0jI4Mz-Cw/edit
00:14:34 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> pathfinder overhaul
00:15:03 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> it's a bastard child of pathfinder and 2eADnD
00:16:21 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> oh
00:16:24 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> level range?
00:16:29 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> This is a Sandbox game
00:16:42 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> If Pathfinder had Epic Levels, we might go into that
00:16:57 <Falang> I just meant starting level, so 2nd?
00:17:07 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> 2nd, yes
00:17:16 <Falang> Might give me a chance to try out that drow fighter i wanted to do..
00:24:40 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Anyone else?
00:28:07 <Falang> prolly not the best time to be recruiting, but I'll pass it along to a few other people..
00:33:28 <Rignesis> can you guys add in site?
00:33:38 <Rignesis> and send invites as you been doing?
00:34:34 <Falang> there is support for that on the website I think
00:34:42 <Falang> creating a game, the bot will send out invites etc
00:39:04 <Rignesis> shift should use that
00:45:37 <Steven> sorry shifty, i have too much on my plate to play another campaign right now.
00:46:32 <Falang> ...said no Steven ever!
00:46:44 <Steven> said this steven.
00:47:49 <Steven> I have a Rotrl, two pfs game days a week, and a wotw game when mekkis schedules
00:48:01 <Steven> not to mention the convention prep i have to do.
02:09:36 <Steven> back... busy busy today
02:33:01 <Mekkis> ShiftKeyGirl, it has to be at least as comprehensive as the existing combat rules.
02:33:25 <ShiftKeyGirl> That's... not really a high bar, Mekkis
02:33:30 <ShiftKeyGirl> Not in the slightest
02:33:41 <Mekkis> I know.
02:33:52 <Mekkis> but what you've said so far doesn't cut it.
02:33:55 <Falang> And mekkis does have a point, unintended consequences are rife in 3.75 dating back 30 years.. it's layers upon layers of rationalizations and contrived rules for the sake of appearances.
02:34:24 <ShiftKeyGirl> Oh god
02:34:26 <ShiftKeyGirl> Look
02:34:34 <ShiftKeyGirl> If you're going to ruleslawyer
02:34:41 <ShiftKeyGirl> Or play silly monkeys with the rules
02:34:44 <ShiftKeyGirl> We don't talk
02:34:55 <Falang> Mekkis even tried justifying spell memorization by saying it was like electron shells, I thought I would die..
02:35:15 <ShiftKeyGirl> I assume common sense and Wheaton's law is present whenever I discuss rules
02:35:25 <Mekkis> Wheaton's law?
02:35:30 <Falang> Don't be a dick
02:35:32 <ShiftKeyGirl> Don't be a dick.
02:36:17 <Falang> okay, how about take a few pregens, fire up DevCA and discuss it with a visual aid and examples?
02:36:42 <Falang> That's a lot more practical than just arguing. at least the errors and issues will be right there.
02:36:49 <ShiftKeyGirl> ugh
02:36:59 <ShiftKeyGirl> please don't make me generate a proper pathfinder character
02:37:05 <ShiftKeyGirl> i've been awake for 38 hours
02:37:12 <Falang> there will be situations that pop up, strange encounters, or tactics etc..
02:37:23 <Hydrazine> Noone said anything like that.
02:37:24 <Falang> no no, there are pregens. or for that matter, no character necessary. assumed values.
02:37:31 <Falang> at least have a map open
02:37:44 <Hydrazine> Does a 10' square enemy have more facing squares than a smaller one?
02:38:05 <Falang> er.. it would have to. depending on it's eye placement that is.
02:38:15 <Mekkis> How do you deal with creatures with multiple heads?
02:38:17 <Falang> lots of animals go well beyond our 120 degree view
02:38:36 <Hydrazine> So are there specific rules for facing angles for things with different heads?
02:39:00 <Hydrazine> Cows. Cows can see almost all the way around, can't they?
02:39:01 <ShiftKeyGirl> There shouldn't have to be
02:39:04 <Mekkis> Does it cover darkvision? Scent? Tremorsense? True Seeing?
02:39:09 <Falang> I think.. facing is a bit more about where your limbs are and whatnot when it comes to combat with a multiheaded beast
02:39:10 <Hydrazine> So if a druid beastshapes into a cow..
02:39:28 <Falang> I mean if you're fighting a.. what's that 2 headed giant?
02:39:35 <Hydrazine> etting?
02:39:35 <ShiftKeyGirl> Ettin
02:39:36 <Hydrazine> ettin?
02:39:38 <Falang> yeah
02:40:02 <Falang> You're fighting an ettin, one head might see you coming up behind him to stab it, but he's already facing fowards with his humanoid shaped body and can't do anything about it.
02:40:14 <Falang> he doesn't have tentacles or a tail
02:40:27 <Falang> so it's not all just about sight
02:40:35 <Mekkis> How does a Robe Of Eyes interact with all of this?
02:40:38 <Falang> Hydrazine: seriously, a cow?
02:40:50 <ShiftKeyGirl> My god
02:41:16 <ShiftKeyGirl> I'm far too sick to try and fit Facing into Pathfinder's overbloated rules system
02:41:18 <Hydrazine> Falang: It was the first example I thought up with a very high visual field. And bulls are well known to be dangerous.
02:41:25 <ShiftKeyGirl> but I can't sleep yet
02:41:27 <Falang> Good enough.
02:42:00 <Mekkis> What if there's an elf riding a horse? Would the horse's vision be different from the elf's?
02:42:04 <Falang> SKG: Give it a rest then. There's nothing saying it has to be worked out today, but I do see some agreement here on possible changes, and issues are coming up that need to be addressed.
02:42:18 <Falang> Yes, not that it would matter.
02:42:37 <ShiftKeyGirl> Why does there have to be a rule for everything?
02:42:43 <ShiftKeyGirl> Every god damm little thing.
02:42:43 <Hydrazine> What if its an elf paladin on a horse smart enough to do everything about it?
02:42:51 <Falang> to prevent sitting around and arguging for half an hour when it comes up.
02:43:02 <ShiftKeyGirl> The counter to that
02:43:05 <ShiftKeyGirl> Is usually
02:43:06 <Mekkis> Why does there have to be a rule for facing in the first place?
02:43:06 <Falang> you pre-argue and think it out until it's mostly okay in advance.
02:43:18 <ShiftKeyGirl> In anything but the most egregious cases
02:43:28 <ShiftKeyGirl> Is
02:43:34 <ShiftKeyGirl> 'I'm the DM'
02:43:48 <ShiftKeyGirl> The DM of course considers the players
02:43:56 <ShiftKeyGirl> But the DM is control of getting the game moving
02:44:34 <ShiftKeyGirl> Sometimes, you just gotta knuckle down and make a ruling based on common sense
02:44:38 <ShiftKeyGirl> On logic
02:44:41 <ShiftKeyGirl> Like
02:44:44 <Hydrazine> But this doesn't work if your players have no idea if the tactics they want to use are even viable in the rules framework.
02:44:58 <ShiftKeyGirl> Well, they can ask you????
02:45:01 <Hydrazine> I wouldn't consider making a rogue in a system with facing unless I knew how it worked before hand.
02:45:02 <ShiftKeyGirl> Before the game???
02:45:05 <Mekkis> we just have.
02:45:05 <Hydrazine> ..Isn't that what we're doing now?
02:45:11 <Falang> Yep. they have to know the rules too, otherwise the game is still stalled while the GM explains it.
02:45:28 <ShiftKeyGirl> Ugh
02:45:40 <ShiftKeyGirl> I had just forgotten the many stupid things that Pathfinder has
02:45:48 <ShiftKeyGirl> like tremorsense
02:45:48 <Hydrazine> Major systems troubleshooting DURING combat is just a bad experience for everyone.
02:45:54 <Hydrazine> That was in 3.5 too.
02:46:03 <ShiftKeyGirl> I played one game of 3.5
02:46:04 <Falang> Well I don't think a lot of other systems are as detailed as PF as far as combat, pretty sure there's no facing in WoD
02:46:13 <ShiftKeyGirl> But like
02:46:14 <Hydrazine> Correct, Falang.
02:46:20 <Hydrazine> Or Deadlands.
02:46:20 <Falang> I rather like how detailed the combat is, but it does have flaws.
02:46:23 <Hydrazine> Which is plenty of fun.
02:46:25 <ShiftKeyGirl> Even though I only remembered it when you brought it up
02:46:35 <ShiftKeyGirl> It seems like the simplest common sense thing to me
02:47:00 <Falang> It is, but changing one thing for common sense breaks 3 other things that are well established
02:47:03 <ShiftKeyGirl> You can only feel their feet behind you
02:47:18 <ShiftKeyGirl> you have no idea where the attack is coming from
02:47:37 <ShiftKeyGirl> unless they're using TM28
02:47:44 <ShiftKeyGirl> which is a very rare tactic
02:47:59 <Falang> Perhaps it should be more like.. concealment. there are levels. you might not know someone is behind you, you might know/suspect someone is behind you, or you might see them behind you.
02:48:15 <Hydrazine> I always hated having to make some poor bastard pokemon learn flash.
02:50:55 <Falang> I have NO idea what that sentence means
02:51:05 <Falang> I must be old.
02:51:06 <ShiftKeyGirl> Technical Machine 28
02:51:10 <ShiftKeyGirl> From pokemon
02:51:12 <ShiftKeyGirl> also known
02:51:14 <ShiftKeyGirl> as Dig
02:52:17 <Falang> I have NO idea what any of those sentences mean. I know the word pokemon.
02:52:25 <Falang> You people are nerds.
02:52:26 <Hydrazine> Too old.
02:52:28 <Mekkis> So the problems so far: Declaring facing. Tracking enemies. 5' steps around enemies to set up flank/leave cone of vision? Multiple heads. Darkvision/tremorsense/true seeing. Robe of eyes. Mounted Combat. Interaction with acrobatics for tumbling - do you threaten? Enemies above or below you. Gaze attacks. Averting your eyes. Helmets/goggles restricting vision?
02:53:07 <ShiftKeyGirl> There is just too much shit
02:53:19 <ShiftKeyGirl> to keep track of
02:53:40 <Mekkis> I said that at the start.
02:54:04 <Falang> That's not too bad, all things considered.
02:54:08 <ShiftKeyGirl> We'd be fucking fine if we worked on Rulings in game, not rules
02:54:23 <ShiftKeyGirl> Dealing with things as they come up
02:54:26 <Falang> it's no different than how the rest of the rules got made, somebody has to do it.
02:54:55 <ShiftKeyGirl> Why can't every system be as simply beautiful as Unknown Armies
02:55:32 <Falang> you can have tactically detailed and realistic or you can have simply beautiful
02:55:40 <Falang> I prefer the former.
02:55:48 <ShiftKeyGirl> In Unknown Armies, you have both
02:56:17 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I AM THE INTERNATIONAL VIDEOGAME CHAMPION
02:56:20 <Falang> I'll read it and see.
02:56:28 <Steven> right...
02:56:39 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> It's true!
02:56:42 <Falang> 3.75 evolved over multiple generations. *shrug*
02:57:07 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> According to Raptr, I have more achievements than I have hours played of all videogames across Steam, PS3, and 360
02:58:53 <Falang> I think it would be great if we work out some house rules and try to address these problems, why not? Maybe they'll work out well and we can submit it to Paizo or something..
02:58:55 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I HAVE THE MOST ACHIEVEMENTS OF ANYONE WHO HAS PLAYED OBLIVION OUT OF THE 17 MILLION GAMERS ON RAPTR!
02:59:16 <Falang> Though i don't think darkvision is a problem. ;)
03:03:03 <Falang> nor do i think you can't stealth in darkvision either.. while it's not the infravision of D&D, I recall reading some of those drow novels and even with thermal sight you can hide yourself in thermal patterns of other objects.. like submarines and thermal layers.
03:03:33 <Hydrazine> Thats not how submarines hide!
03:03:47 <Hydrazine> They hide by being really quiet.
03:04:25 <Hydrazine> And the black paint helps. Yellow is silly.
03:04:58 <Mekkis> that way they run into each other.
03:05:05 <Falang> Oooookay. I see where you got your irc nick from now.
03:05:25 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> it's 3am
03:05:30 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> and i am super excited
03:05:46 <Hydrazine> ...Happens.
03:05:51 <Brunius> And then you get chinese subs popping up next to 'murican ships during exercises just being like "sup?
03:05:52 <Brunius> "
03:06:04 <Hydrazine> Careful planning for sub movement helps us not run into our own guys.
03:06:15 <Hydrazine> Running into enemy subs, thats another story.
03:06:20 <Mekkis> so you run into British ones instead
03:06:40 <Hydrazine> Its less common these days,.
03:06:45 <Hydrazine> Back in WW2 it was pretty common.
03:07:05 <Mekkis> I suppose there were more subs that time
03:07:28 <Mekkis> I thought subs hid by finding a merchant ship and staying underneath it
03:08:06 <Hydrazine> Well, that does work, but its not always practical.
03:08:48 <Avatar> yo
03:09:00 <Falang> anyway..
03:09:06 <Falang> Hey Av.
03:10:02 <Avatar> sup
03:10:08 <Avatar> has shifty left in a huff forever yet
03:10:46 <ShiftKeyGirl> Nope
03:10:51 <ShiftKeyGirl> Still here
03:10:52 <ShiftKeyGirl> Still awake
03:11:01 <ShiftKeyGirl> Still think you can do impossible shit with horses?
03:11:04 <Avatar> just looking shifty without your caps
03:11:09 <Avatar> don't think I didn't spot you
03:11:59 <Rignesis> calm down lady
03:12:03 <Hydrazine> hey Avatar. Sup?
03:12:08 <Avatar> yo sup
03:12:33 <Hydrazine> Hey, I watched some of the dressage in the last olympics.
03:12:43 <Rignesis> only video game that counts is life
03:12:45 <Mekkis> at level 5, if you're not doing impossible shit, there's something wrong.
03:13:03 <Avatar> I was actually looking at uh
03:13:08 <Avatar> the figurine that gets you a griffon
03:13:12 <Avatar> is that still viable at level 11
03:13:32 <Ballig> what do you mean by viable
03:13:56 <Avatar> well it has like 40hp
03:14:08 <Avatar> I think I have a ring of feather falling but still
03:15:42 <Mekkis> for Buck?
03:16:54 <Avatar> yeah
03:17:00 <Avatar> can you use firearms on a mount
03:17:11 <Mekkis> of course you can
03:17:13 <Avatar> you must be able to, I've done it before I think
03:17:22 <Avatar> just not longbows
03:17:26 <Brunius> Can you control a mount without your hands
03:17:30 <Mekkis> it the mount takes a double move, you take penalties to hit
03:17:37 <Mekkis> yes. DC5 ride check, iirc
03:17:41 <Avatar> yeah that never happens
03:18:04 <Avatar> so figurine of whatits gryphon for 10K is a good investment aye
03:18:11 <Avatar> even if it dies it just reverts to a statuette
03:18:18 <Ballig> Bobbob has only used it in one scenario
03:18:29 <Avatar> what level is Bobbob
03:18:31 <Ballig> 8
03:18:38 <Avatar> barely elite
03:18:43 <Ballig> barely
03:18:45 <Avatar> you will be using it
03:18:48 <Avatar> mark my words
03:18:54 <Mekkis> why not just buy a bunch of giant vultures?
03:19:05 <Avatar> how much are they
03:19:08 <Mekkis> 1125gp for a combat trained one
03:19:15 <Avatar> I don't remember seeing the cost for those in the CRB
03:19:19 <Mekkis> 750gp if you want to train it yourself
03:19:23 <Mekkis> Animal Archive
03:19:27 <Brunius> Because of the 'one combat pet' rule
03:19:28 <Mekkis> p14
03:19:37 <Ballig> isn't that only per scenario
03:19:41 <Mekkis> Brunius, sure. You replace the dead one.
03:20:11 <Hydrazine> Name them like hurricanes.
03:20:34 <Mekkis> Gillard Rudd Howard Keating Hawke?
03:20:44 <Hydrazine> Arnold, Betty, Chris, David..
03:21:00 <Hydrazine> Aren't those big Aussie politicians?
03:21:11 <Mekkis> If you get to Fraser Whitlam then something's wrong.
03:21:26 <Mekkis> Prime ministers in descending order
03:21:56 <Steven> yeah slow your roll girl.
03:22:06 <Ballig> Hawke the vulture
03:22:24 <Mekkis> Fyshwick the vulture
03:22:38 <Ballig> he's already got a notorious suburb named after him
03:24:06 <Brunius> Why does Fyshwick sound familiar
03:24:12 <Brunius> I don't think I've got family living there
03:25:24 <Mekkis> If you get to Barton, then you're really doing something wrong, and should have bought the figurine.
03:33:03 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> 'i am literally booked out my life to the max because of RPGs and conventions. but you should slow down'
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04:25:42 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> anyway
04:25:47 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> rignesis
04:25:54 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i tried to set up a campaign on the site
04:26:02 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> but i guess it's an admin only function
04:26:11 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> as i couldn't find the option for it anywhere
04:32:31 <Rignesis> im new guy :) - with 0 campaigns played - mekkis or ballig is the main men here
04:32:33 <Rignesis> i believe
04:32:39 <Rignesis> tho kudos you for trying
05:01:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> So.
05:01:20 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Who's up?
05:01:26 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> And interested in joining a game?
05:43:39 <Steven> ballig is the main guy, followed by avatar and mekkis.
05:53:39 <Hydrazine> We've been taken over by people who don't even use capslock?
05:55:59 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I use caps when I have to type something really long, when I'm really angry
05:59:00 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I spend a lot of time playing bad videogames
05:59:01 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Because I am addicted to shitty things
06:01:20 <Ballig> video games are shitty now?
06:01:29 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Some of them.
06:01:36 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Some of them are very bad.
06:01:47 <Steven> so you were angry when you decided on your name?
06:01:58 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Nope!
06:02:13 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I can't remember what I was feeling when I decided on my original name, when I was 15
06:02:20 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> CAPSLOCKGUY was what it was
06:02:32 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I probably just liked speaking in all caps
06:02:58 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> SHIFTKEYGIRL is just an evolution of that name
06:03:06 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I've never had cause to change it
06:03:32 <Ballig> online sex change
06:05:23 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Real Life Transgender Experience
06:08:17 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Anyway
06:08:24 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Any takers for Fantasy L4D2?
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06:11:15 <Steven> sorry bout to play me some .hack//sign infection
06:11:23 <Ballig> I go to work in 2 hours
06:11:40 <Steven> I'm at work. Sittin on my dads couch.
06:13:25 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I don't mean right now
06:13:27 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Like
06:13:30 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> at some point
06:15:50 <Hydrazine> Hm.
06:15:56 <Hydrazine> I could give it a shot.
06:16:23 <Hydrazine> I like zombies and D&D.
06:16:42 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Well
06:16:48 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Have you played L4D?
06:16:55 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> L4D zombies are not romero zombies
06:16:57 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> at all
06:17:14 <Hydrazine> Yes.
06:17:25 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Okay.
06:17:27 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Well.
06:17:28 <Hydrazine> I do best with the shotgun.
06:17:45 <Ballig> now you can use a dagger
06:17:47 <Ballig> a +1 dagger!
06:17:50 <Hydrazine> Woah!
06:18:18 <Wrothmonk> Evening
06:18:23 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Daggers are actuallly a pretty good thing to use, regardless of class
06:18:51 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I'm using an overhaul of Pathfinder that's kind of a bastard child of it and 2eADnD
06:19:07 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> So there's weapon speeds
06:19:12 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> And daggers are very fast
06:19:31 <Hydrazine> I never played 2e.
06:19:53 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I played a very intense campaign of it
06:19:56 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> It was very good
06:20:52 <Wrothmonk> zombie d&d? what be this?
06:21:01 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Fantasy L4D2
06:21:05 <Hydrazine> Braaaaaaaaaaaains.
06:22:11 <Wrothmonk> I've never played d&d to realistic gore from what I've seen.
06:22:16 <Wrothmonk> l4d*
06:22:24 <Wrothmonk> how the hell did autocorrect do that :/
06:22:54 * Wrothmonk searches around for the hundredth time for a way to disable autocorrect.
06:22:57 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Australia got a censored version of L4D2
06:23:03 <Hydrazine> Autocorrect goblins.
06:23:04 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Search Left 4 Uncut
06:23:18 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Run it before you play, and you'll get the gore
06:23:56 <Ballig> did they end up releasing the proper version when we got our 18+ games rating?
06:24:03 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Nope!
06:24:41 <Hydrazine> Bah, metric?!
06:26:05 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I can't visualise feet in my head
06:26:11 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> And we can round out
06:26:31 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> 5 feet is sort of 1.5 metres?
06:26:34 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> That's about right
06:27:11 <Hydrazine> Its easy to visualize feet. 5 fives, longer than a hand..
06:27:16 <Hydrazine> 5 toes.
06:27:20 <Hydrazine> I can't even words.
06:27:23 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> The distance
06:27:37 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> not the bodypart
06:30:19 <Hydrazine> I think I'm approaching the point where I'l have to evict tabletop gaming systems from my head in order to learn new ones.
06:30:41 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Look
06:30:50 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I've memorised the controls for so many videogames
06:30:53 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> perfectly
06:30:57 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> as well as the ingame rules
06:31:15 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> put my hands on the keyboard, joystick, gamepad, whatever
06:31:26 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i'll know how to play games I played when i was 8
06:31:32 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> you can remember some fucking houserules
06:31:49 <Hydrazine> Its not houserules.
06:31:53 <Hydrazine> I've never learned 2e.
06:32:26 <Hydrazine> So I don't have the background to understand some of the houserules. No need to get all offended about it.
06:34:46 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> ugh
06:34:55 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i've been awake for 24 hours
06:34:57 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> forgive me
06:44:18 <Wrothmonk> Hey, where is firing into melee covered in the pathfinder CRB?
06:44:51 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> iirc it's a -4 to hit
06:45:17 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> yep
06:45:18 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> -4
06:45:20 <Wrothmonk> yes, I know that, but I want to know what it effects specifically.
06:45:25 <Wrothmonk> thats why I want the page
06:45:51 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)
06:45:52 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.
06:45:54 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> If your target is two size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with, this penalty is reduced to –2. There is no penalty for firing at a creature that is three size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with.
06:46:35 <Wrothmonk> interesting, so it doesn't effect spells.
06:47:26 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I'm pretty sure throwing a fireball into a melee wouldn't go over well for either side
06:48:11 <Wrothmonk> yes, but something like a targeted spell wouldn't have a penalty.
06:48:25 <Wrothmonk> say acid splash
06:49:15 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I'd say that you would take a penalty
06:49:32 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> well
06:49:32 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> yeah
06:49:40 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> ranged touch attack is like a ranged weapon
06:49:55 <Wrothmonk> But the rule say specifically a /weapon/
06:50:38 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Look
06:50:45 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You can either take the rules as is
06:51:06 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> And let spellcasters have a free ride because of a technicallity
06:51:33 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> or you can assume that something you need to aim into a melee that does damage suffers a penalty, no matter the form it takes
06:51:37 * Wrothmonk mumbles "bloody table variation"
06:51:51 <Wrothmonk> and when I need an exact ruling.
06:52:11 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Look
06:52:14 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Are you the DM?
06:53:31 <Ballig> if the spell requires an attack roll, you take a penalty if doing it into melee
06:53:47 <Wrothmonk> For the situation yes. However I'm going to be dealing with rather odd spells.
06:53:55 <Ballig> ranged spell attacks are considered weapons for all purposes
06:53:58 <Ballig> including weapon focus
06:54:39 <Wrothmonk> hrm wait, the description actually says its a ranged weapon...
06:55:27 <Ballig> touch spell attacks are considered weapons also
06:55:43 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Spells are a weapon
06:55:48 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Some of them require aiming
06:55:50 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Ergo
06:56:00 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You are aiming and firing a weapon into melee
06:56:04 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> there's your ruling
06:56:07 <Wrothmonk> Alright
06:56:08 <Wrothmonk> thanks
06:56:34 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> RulesLawyering gets old when you're 15
06:56:39 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Do what makes sense
06:56:45 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> particularly when you're the DM
06:59:52 <Hydrazine> SHIFTKEYGIRL: Hes likely talking about PF Society play, which is very strict and regulated. I understand why he wants a definitive rule.
07:00:31 <Wrothmonk> Well not exactly PF but I do prefer definitive rules when I'm going to be testing a new system.
07:00:37 <Rignesis> without rules there are chaos
07:00:40 <Wrothmonk> lab conditions if you will.
07:01:03 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You are the DM
07:01:10 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You can make rulings
07:01:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You /have/ to make rulings
07:01:24 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> The rules do not, and should not, cover everything
07:01:30 <Hydrazine> That doesn't mean turn the whole game upside down if good rules already exist.
07:01:54 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Ideally
07:02:00 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> The rules should make logical sense
07:02:03 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Thereby
07:02:15 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Rule what makes sense when there exists no rule
07:02:27 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> In this case
07:02:39 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> The rules did not cover what was explained
07:02:44 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> so I just ruled what made sense
07:03:47 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> What am I even fucking nervous about?
07:03:50 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> DMing is easy.
07:05:08 <Hydrazine> Hey Wroth, there is a line that does say ray spells are aimed as if using a ranged weapon.
07:05:22 <Wrothmonk> Yup, found that
07:06:15 <Avatar> Steven: of course you would, why wouldn't you
07:06:25 <Avatar> get a +4 bonus when prone on a carpet of flying
07:06:50 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Because it's not stable
07:07:09 <Wrothmonk> you would still get a bonus and there would be a minus if its not stable I think
07:07:20 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You get +4 to aiming while on the ground because it's something stable to prop yourself up on
07:07:33 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Like aiming a rifle through a windowsill, or across low cover
07:07:41 <Avatar> is a carpet not stable
07:07:54 <Wrothmonk> which, even when the ground is unstable, you are still more stable prone than standing up on it.
07:07:55 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> it is a flying, thin slab of fabric
07:08:04 <Avatar> it supports 200lb
07:08:16 <Avatar> hovers without a check
07:08:26 <Hydrazine> I can give a 200lb person a piggyback ride without a check.
07:08:28 <Avatar> I'll messageboard this one
07:08:29 <Hydrazine> Does that make me stable?
07:08:38 <Avatar> I think you would need to make a check
07:08:42 <Hydrazine> What for?
07:08:47 <Avatar> you might drop me
07:08:51 <Hydrazine> I'd be on heavy encumberance.
07:09:01 <Hydrazine> But thats not a check.
07:09:25 <Hydrazine> You can easy find a tree branch that can hold 200lb and yet not be stable.
07:09:53 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Also
07:09:55 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Uhhhhhh
07:10:08 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> How are you going to be aiming at stuff on the ground
07:10:14 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> while lying down on something flat
07:10:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> in the air
07:10:20 <Wrothmonk> looking over the edge?
07:10:29 <Avatar> like you do off a rooftop
07:10:30 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Then you're definately not stable
07:10:48 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> The gun also needs to be stable
07:10:55 <Avatar> what's changed
07:11:12 <Hydrazine> the support underneath the weapon?
07:11:13 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You're leaning over the side of something that's fucking flying!
07:11:18 <Avatar> are you saying you wouldn't allow the bonus while aiming off the edge of a rooftop
07:11:27 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> No!
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07:11:37 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I wouldn't penalize it.
07:11:43 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> But I wouldn't give it a bonus.
07:11:54 <Avatar> what about if I shoot while standing
07:12:02 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Still nothing.
07:12:09 <Avatar> but I'm unstable aren't I
07:12:09 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> It's the same in both scenarios
07:12:17 <Avatar> don't I need to make balance checks
07:12:40 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> My god.
07:12:44 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Was I ever this bad?
07:12:48 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I don't think so.
07:12:51 <Avatar> probably !
07:13:01 <Hydrazine> No, Avatar's special.
07:13:06 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Have you even fired a gun in a videogame?
07:13:07 <Avatar> you can't say there's a penalty one way but none the other
07:13:12 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Do you know anything about guns?
07:13:19 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> About primitive firearms?
07:13:28 <Avatar> either it's stable while you're standing and while you're prone, or it's not
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07:14:02 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> There are degrees of stability, you fucking moron
07:14:11 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Particularly with Muskets
07:14:20 <Hydrazine> Chill, we're keeping this civil.
07:14:21 <Avatar> that's rude
07:14:31 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You reload them by jamming blackpower down the god damm barrel!
07:14:40 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> The recoil is immense!
07:14:46 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Your shoulder is barely passable
07:15:23 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Read up on god damm firearms
07:15:28 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You are using one
07:15:32 <Hydrazine> Heres a question though, Avatar.
07:15:36 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Your useage should be informed
07:15:47 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Not exist in a knowledge vaccum
07:15:57 <Hydrazine> Is the penalty to shooting on a moving mount do to the speed, the bouncing, or both?
07:16:11 <Hydrazine> due. Balls I can't type today.
07:16:12 <Avatar> what's the penalty of shooting on a mount
07:16:37 <Hydrazine> Nothing if the mount's just moving. -4 on a double move, -8 on a run.
07:16:40 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Doesn't matter
07:16:52 <Avatar> where's that
07:16:53 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> The degree of penalty has absolutely no bearing on this exercise
07:16:58 <Avatar> that's what I'm after
07:17:05 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Oh my fucking god
07:17:09 <Hydrazine> combat while mounted.
07:17:27 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You're trying to shoot while on horse!
07:17:33 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Do you know what a horse is?
07:17:33 <Avatar> take a chill pill shiftkey
07:17:38 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Do you know how it moves?
07:17:47 <Wrothmonk> I believe a flying carpet could be considered a mount.
07:18:07 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Not even slightly
07:18:23 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> The degrees of control you have over a magical device
07:18:27 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> and a sentient being
07:18:34 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> are comepletely different skillsets
07:18:38 <Avatar> it must be due to the speed
07:18:39 <Wrothmonk> Fair point.
07:18:41 <Avatar> since the penalty changes based on the speed
07:18:45 <Hydrazine> The mounted combat rules are useful for evaluating several situations where a magical effect is serving the same purpose as the mount.
07:18:45 <Rignesis> shifty - lets settle - if we play pathfinder society - we all should play by the rules - even those rules which ar not written but which is combination of written rules
07:19:14 <Rignesis> united rules makes pathfinder society possible
07:19:38 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Pathfinder Society is not an admirable goal if the DM is hidebound
07:20:01 <Hydrazine> For instance, there was a debate about using floating disk to give melee fighters extra move speed.
07:20:32 <Hydrazine> By having them stand on the disk, move the disk on the wizard's turn, and the fighter moves on their own turn.
07:20:41 <Hydrazine> Thus, >30ft movement easy.
07:20:56 <Wrothmonk> makes sense
07:21:00 <Hydrazine> But this doesn't work.
07:21:03 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> No it doesn't
07:21:05 <Wrothmonk> however what is the action to get on or off the disk?
07:21:09 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> The wizard an-
07:21:16 <Hydrazine> Not even the issue, Wroth.
07:21:17 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> My god.
07:21:34 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I would facepalm if that wasn't incredibly overdone
07:21:38 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> but I did groan
07:21:39 <Hydrazine> The problem is that both these turns are actions by different people in the same 6 seconds.
07:21:55 <Wrothmonk> Ah
07:21:57 <Hydrazine> A fighter cannot both be on the disk for 3 seconds, and running during the same 3 seconds.
07:22:02 <Hydrazine> and attacking for the latter 3.
07:22:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Wait
07:22:24 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You lost me in the insane moon logic
07:22:29 <Rignesis> ...
07:22:38 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Like
07:22:43 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I registered what you said
07:22:50 <Hydrazine> Go to sleep, shifty.
07:22:58 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> But I did not believe that people would be that dumb to suggest it
07:23:02 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I though, like
07:23:09 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> The Disk moved faster than a person
07:23:14 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Wizard moves the disk
07:23:14 <Hydrazine> Well, rules as written, it looks good.
07:23:18 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> fighter attacks from the disk
07:23:24 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Which still doesn't work
07:23:27 <Hydrazine> Disk moves the same speed.
07:23:37 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> The fighter and wizard would need telepathy
07:23:41 <Hydrazine> My point, is its the mounted combat rules that make this clear.
07:23:42 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> and even then
07:24:47 <Hydrazine> Avatar: I agree that it must be the speed, since there is no consideration for exotic mounts with a 'smoother' ride than a horse.
07:25:35 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Or you could just
07:25:37 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You know
07:25:39 <Hydrazine> I think we can agree that a galloping horse is a bad place to try to say, draw a picture.
07:25:39 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> be a DM
07:25:42 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Make a ruling
07:26:03 <Hydrazine> I asked his opinion. IE. His ruling, if he were to make one.
07:26:21 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> No
07:26:22 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Liker
07:26:25 <Hydrazine> So.. Thats exactly what we did.
07:26:31 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> If it were a smoother ride
07:26:37 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> make a ruling for a lesser penalty
07:27:45 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Logically though
07:27:52 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> any beast
07:27:55 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> magical or no
07:28:06 <Hydrazine> I think you need to learn some more aboit society play to understand our discussions about it. I don't like everything about Society, but it has its reasons, and its fans, and I can respect them both.
07:28:07 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> is going to be bouncy when it moves
07:30:02 <Hydrazine> Hey Avatar, can magic carpets 'run'?
07:32:40 <Avatar> dunno
07:33:25 <Wrothmonk> Can snakes run?
07:33:44 <Avatar> you can hustle with overland flight
07:34:07 <Wrothmonk> nvm
07:37:13 <Avatar> people are saying you can't full attack after moving with a mount
07:37:49 <Wrothmonk> controlling a mount is an action correct? like swift or something?
07:38:22 <Avatar> I don't think so, it's not a handle animal check
07:38:45 <Avatar> a move action, a free action or no action at all
07:38:55 <Avatar> guide with knees does not take an action
07:39:11 <Avatar> but the horse's movement eats into your 6 seconds
07:39:24 <Wrothmonk> hrm...
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07:43:08 <Hydrazine> Technically, not if you moved more than 5', Avatar.
07:43:34 <Hydrazine> But that rule doesn't quite nail the point.
07:43:57 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> My god
07:43:59 <Hydrazine> The point, is that you obviously can't start melee attacking before your mount gets to the target.
07:44:01 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Horses are not robots
07:44:04 <Hydrazine> But it should be legal to circle the target and attack.
07:44:08 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> They are not easy to control
07:44:21 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Directing a horse to move is easily a standard action
07:44:37 <Hydrazine> That doesn't really make sense, Shifty.
07:44:48 <Hydrazine> Considering that in the real world, people have fought melee combat atop horses.
07:44:59 <Hydrazine> Even atop charging horses.
07:45:01 <Avatar> some other joker asked the same questions about 2 weeks ago and didn't get a single reply
07:45:05 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You would not have the concentration to direct the horse, *MOVE ACTION*, /and/ attack several times in a few seconds
07:45:19 <Hydrazine> But its been done!
07:45:22 <Avatar> got 3 other FAQ requests
07:45:25 <Hydrazine> This has ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
07:45:26 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> No, it hasn
07:45:28 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> 't\
07:45:31 <Hydrazine> Its not some magic mystery game bullshit.
07:45:40 <Hydrazine> People actually did that.
07:45:59 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You are talking about swinging a broadsword even twice, while co-ordinating with a horse to move it close to the person
07:46:04 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> It is not easy
07:46:12 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You would be fucking
07:46:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> The master horseman
07:46:25 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> And swordsman
07:46:33 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> In REAL battles
07:46:43 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> People do not mosey they horse over to someone and stop
07:46:47 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> nor do they 'circle'
07:46:52 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> It is a hit and run
07:47:02 <Hydrazine> Well, your ordering is the problem. You've got to move the horse in close, and THEN swing the broadsword.
07:47:04 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> This is an established fact of the cavlary charge
07:47:19 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> if the horse stops moving, both it and the rider are dead
07:47:55 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You do not have the time or concentration to spend a whole 6 seconds worth of attacks on one person
07:47:57 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> End of story
07:48:27 <Hydrazine> The horse charge has its rules covered. Standing and fighting while atop a horse also has rules covered. Mostly because hitting and running doesn't work if theres no safe space to run TO after you hit.
07:48:50 <Hydrazine> I agree theres no rules for circling, because its kind of silly. But its not even allowed, even though it should be possible.
07:49:03 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> HAVE YOU SEEN A HORSE MOVE?!
07:49:06 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I HAVE RIDDEN A HORSE
07:49:10 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> THEY CANNOT CIRCLE
07:49:19 <Avatar> I have seen movies that tell it differently
07:49:24 <Wrothmonk> at full gallop no.
07:49:41 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Which movie, pray tell.
07:49:48 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Please say a cowboy movie
07:49:51 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> or lord of the rings
07:49:54 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I will be very happy
07:50:10 <Avatar> the game doesn't always reflect reality
07:50:22 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Ah
07:50:23 <Avatar> there's a lot of parts of it that don't make sense that are still rules in the game
07:50:27 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> That old fallback
07:50:28 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Well
07:50:33 <Hydrazine> A horse can't walk in a circle around a 5' space?
07:50:39 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> If we're just picking and choosing what makes sense.
07:50:41 <Hydrazine> Because that sounds reasonable.
07:50:54 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> No
07:50:58 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Horses cannot do that
07:51:02 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> They are too large
07:51:05 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> They take up
07:51:08 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> two spaces
07:51:22 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> And they cannot turn easily
07:51:23 <Avatar> they can walk in a circle in the 5ft space around them
07:51:45 <Avatar> the game certainly doesn't prevent that
07:51:47 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> this is why the cavalry charge needs more or less a straight line
07:51:50 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> horses
07:51:51 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> CANNOT
07:51:58 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> turn on a dime
07:52:02 <Avatar> yes they can
07:52:04 <Avatar> there is no facing in pathfinder
07:52:17 <Wrothmonk> which is stupid in my opinion.
07:52:26 <Wrothmonk> but anyway...
07:52:28 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> My god.
07:52:39 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I'm the only sane woman left
07:52:50 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> It's Society all the way down
07:53:17 <Wrothmonk> Its a game.
07:53:27 <Hydrazine> Thats not even society. Its just Pathfinder. Theres no facing in 3.5 either.
07:53:31 <Wrothmonk> One that attempts to be realistic.
07:53:50 <Wrothmonk> But again, just a game. Games dont ever completely obey the laws of physics.
07:53:56 <Hydrazine> Better said, one that tries to find a good balance between being realistic and being a fun game.
07:54:18 <Hydrazine> Making your characters have to use the bathroom would be more realistic, but it wouldn't make it more fun.
07:57:11 <Hydrazine> Hey Shifty, how large of an area do you need to do a U-turn on a horse?
07:57:24 <Hydrazine> I'm asking because I'm a city boy and I have no idea.
07:57:36 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Depends
07:57:45 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Are you completely stopping the horse?
07:58:06 <Hydrazine> Whats the least space you could do it in, and how?
07:59:11 <Hydrazine> Also, I agree that stand and fight is a bad situation for mounted combat. But considering that this is exactly how the unmounted side wants to fight it, there should definately be rules to cover the situation.
07:59:15 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Technically, if you completely stopped the horse, for like, 20 seconds, I think? you could do it in the space the horse is standing in. but that's the horse being completely undisturbed for however long that takes
07:59:28 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Maybe faster
07:59:39 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Depends on how well trained the rider is, as well as the horse
07:59:44 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> As well as distractions, etc
07:59:48 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Terrain
08:00:04 <Hydrazine> So you could do it in an area only as wide as the horse, in an ideal case.
08:00:14 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Not on a battlefield, though
08:00:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> god no
08:00:20 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> as before
08:00:22 <Hydrazine> Well, are you happy?
08:00:26 <Hydrazine> The rules agree with you.
08:00:26 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> you would have to be the horsemaster
08:00:34 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> with the masterhorse
08:00:57 <Hydrazine> What about Bad Horse, the Thoroughbred of Sin?
08:01:12 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> that horse is a shitty horse
08:01:14 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> don't trust it
08:01:18 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> it is a horse of lies
08:02:05 <Hydrazine> So, pathfinder mounted combat rules say you cannot attack while U-turning your horse. Awesome.
08:03:15 <Hydrazine> I would like to see a tabletop rules system that DOES include facing.
08:03:26 <Hydrazine> I've never played anything that did.
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09:24:49 <Hydrazine> Man, when this place dies, it dies.
09:37:39 <Brunius|M-> Hydrazine, why does this math insist on using letters for everything?
09:39:04 <Hydrazine> Algebra?
09:39:18 <Hydrazine> Pssh, thats nothing. Wait until you have to learn the greek alphabet to do your math.
09:40:23 <Hydrazine> I never remember how to pull off a lowercase ksi.
10:03:44 <Mekkis> Hydrazine, sort of. Mounted combat rules also say that you reset momentum to zero, and facing to "your choice" at the start of each turn
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10:10:05 <Mekkis> Hydrazine, sort of. Mounted combat rules also say that you reset momentum to zero, and facing to "your choice" at the start of each turn
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10:12:53 <Mekkis> ...
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10:16:48 <Mekkis> you here now, Hydrazine ?
10:22:42 <Hydrazine> More or less.
10:31:44 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Mekkis Hydrazine, sort of. Mounted combat rules also say that you reset momentum to zero, and facing to "your choice" at the start of each turn
10:32:47 <Hydrazine> I wonder how mounted combat would fare if it went like the vehicle combat rules, with turning radius.
10:33:39 <Mekkis> if you didn't want people to take mounted combat, it would work well
10:35:06 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> alright
10:35:08 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> so
10:35:14 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> how do i get a campaign started
10:36:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i mean, like
10:36:19 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> get one up on the site
10:36:30 <Mekkis> tell Avatar or Ballig.
10:36:52 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I'll wait for Ballig
10:37:18 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Avatar is literally 9 years old
10:38:52 <Mekkis> no he isn't
10:39:04 <Mekkis> he's older than I am
10:39:54 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> could've fucking fooled me
10:40:28 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> he certainly acts it
10:40:45 Wrothmonk has quit (Connection closed)
10:40:49 <Mekkis> I'm not sure if you're a particularly good model of maturity either....
10:41:01 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> hey
10:41:05 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i am plenty mature
10:41:26 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i actually research heavily on subjects that will be relevant before I game
10:41:43 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Avatar takes what he sees in movies as fact
10:42:00 <Mekkis> !hp 5d6m3+5d6m2
10:42:02 <diebot> Mekkis, 67
10:42:02 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> He couldn't grasp that firing a musket on horseback would be difficult
10:43:07 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> he didn't seem to realise how standing on solid ground and firing a musket from a braced shoulder position, as opposed to leaning over the edge of a flying carpet, while prone, trying to shoot targets on the ground, are different
10:44:12 <Mekkis> Or he did, and realises that the abstractions Pathfinder makes for the sake of expedience already covers that.
10:44:21 Wrothmonk ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
10:44:43 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> where did he even come close to doing that?
10:44:49 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> because the last thing he said was;
10:45:04 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> SHIFTKEYGIRL horses
10:45:05 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> SHIFTKEYGIRL CANNOT
10:45:07 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> SHIFTKEYGIRL turn on a dime
10:45:08 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Avatar yes they can
10:45:10 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Avatar there is no facing in pathfinder
10:45:30 <Mekkis> See? abstractions in Pathfinder for the sake of expedience.
10:46:03 <Mekkis> you COULD implement facing in pathfinder, but it won't make the game better. It will just add a bunch more paperwork and disputes.
10:46:26 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> look
10:46:35 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i can track an entire skirmish in my fucking head
10:46:43 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> facing ain't shit
10:47:01 <Wrothmonk> What about the players?
10:48:44 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I describe it, or do up a map
10:48:54 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> besides
10:49:04 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> if i can keep a mental battlefield map
10:49:09 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> why can't the players?
10:49:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> it's an essential RPG skill
10:50:01 <Wrothmonk> Some people may not be as experienced as you.
10:50:39 <Mekkis> So, if you implemented facing into Pathfinder, what would the advantages be?
10:50:39 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I am 21, and haven't Tabletop gamed in 6 months, and i can still do it
10:50:44 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> because there's a trick to it
10:50:56 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> more involved combat and tactics?
10:51:13 <Mekkis> that's not necessarily an advantage
10:51:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> turning around and running is actually a fucking involved decision?
10:51:26 <Mekkis> that's not necessarily an advantage
10:52:00 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> it's a much more immersive combat experience
10:52:13 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> and far better than ommnidirectional warriors
10:52:37 <Mekkis> I'd like some evidence. It seems that it's a much more /complicated/ combat experience. Requiring people to breack character more to look up rules and modifiers.
10:52:51 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> hardly
10:52:59 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> all the mechanics for flanking are there
10:53:21 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> just mention which direction you're facing
10:53:21 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> presto
10:53:23 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> done
10:56:14 <Mekkis> you're either not thinking it through enough, or you're more niave that I took you for.
10:58:57 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i just read over the mechanics
10:59:01 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> seems fine to me
10:59:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> +2 if you're behind or to the left or right of the target's facing
11:18:06 <Mekkis> þe latter then
11:25:12 <Hydrazine> What about perception for facing then? How does it affect CMBs? Stealth and sneak attacks?
11:25:48 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Uncanny Dodge
11:29:08 <Hydrazine> I don't think that really answers the question.
11:29:32 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You still perceive an area around you
11:29:34 <Hydrazine> I haven't played a tabletop game that includes facing rules. I would be interested to try it and see if it works.
11:29:54 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> if you're stealthy you beat perception
11:30:10 <Hydrazine> So how is that different from how it is now?
11:30:13 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i suppose if you were trying to stealth right past someone who was looking right at you, i would apply a penalty
11:30:23 <Wrothmonk> ok but are you automatically invisible if they aren't facing you.
11:30:25 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> depends on what else is going on
11:30:47 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> stealth is really to broad a field to apply any modifiers off the cuff
11:30:53 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> really, most of rpg material is
11:30:59 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> but pathfinder tried anyway
11:31:02 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> and FAILED
11:31:11 <Wrothmonk> I can agree on that.
11:32:42 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> wroth, what?
11:32:43 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> god no
11:49:53 <Hydrazine> So how would you do stealth?
12:05:04 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> what do you mean?
12:07:07 <Falang> hah! I'm in love! It's so nice to see somebody else saying these things for once and not being the only one!
12:07:36 <Falang> SHIFT, we are clearly soulmates!
12:08:18 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> finally, another sane person in this crazy new world
12:08:42 <Falang> I suspect we might drive Mekkis insane if we combine our forces
12:09:02 <Falang> Sup Wroth
12:09:09 <Wrothmonk> Hello
12:09:16 <Falang> missed ya yesterday, I had a whole day free for gaming
12:10:30 <Wrothmonk> Sorry about that, I was a little busy.
12:11:50 <Falang> figured. Mekkis even asked if anybody had seen you, I think he might have missed you a little bit or something.
12:12:10 <Wrothmonk> Really? you're joking.
12:12:19 <Falang> Not this time I'm afraid
12:13:13 <Falang> [20:07] <@Mekkis> Anyone seen wrothmonk today?
12:16:30 <Mekkis> no, Falang, you've just found another whiny bastard
12:18:13 <Falang> hahaha
12:18:17 <Falang> I was waiting for that
12:31:00 <Mekkis> I got 250 business cards for Deceased for $1.97
13:21:24 <Hydrazine> Its one thing to say you're unhappy with stealth rules, but without offering up an alternative, it isn't saying much.
13:24:21 Brunius|M- has quit (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
13:26:04 <Mekkis> I have some proposals for improving the stealth rules, actually....
13:26:24 <Mekkis> 1) Remove the "you need cover or concealment" clause.
13:26:49 <Mekkis> 2) Codify the DC for seeing someone who's just standing there. I suggest the DC should be around -10
13:27:33 <Mekkis> 3) Define "observed"
13:28:30 <Falang> to do proper stealth it's still almost necessary to have at least non-combat facing rules so you can sneak around behind people.
13:28:40 <Mekkis> disagree.
13:29:14 <Mekkis> allow the stealth abstraction to cover it.
13:32:25 <Falang> so for the sake of laziness let's just stick with a half-abstracted system that we're currently using, since PF already recognizes the concept of flanking
13:46:36 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> mekkis has never played stealth game in his life
13:46:46 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> it is far
13:46:48 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> FAR
13:46:55 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> more satisfying
13:46:56 <Mekkis> I have no idea what you're talking about
13:47:14 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> to plan a route through patrolling gaurds, as they change facing
13:47:25 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> rather than just cruising through on 'stealth'
13:47:43 <Mekkis> Sure. While the other players are horribly bored.
13:47:59 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> yeah]
13:48:07 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> make a stealth character
13:48:14 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> and have nothing to do most of the time
13:48:25 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> but don't give them any missions to themselves, no!
13:48:33 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> that would require giving classes certain roles
13:49:02 <Mekkis> my 11th level PFS character is stealth-based.
13:49:09 <Mekkis> He doesn't have nothing to do most of the time.
13:49:59 <Falang> SKG: I know, I started doing a theif/sorcerer and it's been a pain in PFS games, they're so robotic and scripted..
13:50:17 <Falang> the idea of someone 'scouting' is alien to PF because stealth is so broken
13:50:20 <Mekkis> Falang, a theif?
13:50:22 <Mekkis> what's that?
13:50:43 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> have you ever actually snuck through an area relying on your wits, and skills? like, player skills, actual stealth skills? or have you just cruised on through with the stealth button held down, laughing as the guards can do nothing because they're bound by the horribly incompetent system for handling stealth?
13:51:01 <Wrothmonk> You do anything but cruise
13:51:04 <Falang> in a rush, going out.
13:51:12 <Falang> be back from the tablet maybe
13:51:19 <Wrothmonk> Stealth is broken in the way that you CANT cruise through.
13:51:30 <Mekkis> yeah, you need to really know what you're doing.
13:51:38 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> as in
13:51:47 <Wrothmonk> No cover, no stealth
13:51:50 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> create a broken character that is stealth based
13:52:02 <Mekkis> and not just making sure that you never get out of cover, you also need to be able to coordinate illusions to distract enemies.
13:52:06 <Wrothmonk> or you need to distract the people.
13:52:10 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> or you could just
13:52:13 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> not be retarded
13:52:14 <Wrothmonk> with bluff or illusions.
13:52:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> jesus
13:52:19 <Mekkis> "broken" as in "doesn't work" or as in "horribly overpowered?
13:52:25 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> stealth doesn't require concealment all the time
13:52:29 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> or bluffs
13:52:31 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> or illusions
13:52:31 <Wrothmonk> it does in pathfinder
13:52:32 <Mekkis> Ummm...
13:52:34 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> as i said
13:52:41 <Mekkis> you obviously haven't read the rules, SKG
13:52:46 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> you have obviously never played a proper stealth videogame
13:52:49 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> the rules BLOW
13:52:54 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> THEY
13:52:55 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> ARE
13:52:57 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> FOR
13:52:59 <Mekkis> or considered setting the third bit in half your characters.
13:53:01 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> *SUCKHAVERS*
13:53:16 <Mekkis> what's a suckhaver?
13:53:36 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> ugh
13:53:40 <Mekkis> and PLEASE, put some lower case characters in your nick. You do on other websites.
13:53:49 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> no i don't
13:53:57 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i'm not allowed to on gmail
13:54:12 <Wrothmonk> If you dont like the rules of pathfinder society, leave. Thats practically all we play here and the rest are based off pathfinder rules.
13:54:43 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I'm here because I want to play some fucking RPGs
13:54:54 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I'm running my own fucking game
13:55:08 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I might not run it in Pathfinder anymore
13:55:08 <Mekkis> Your mediafire account leads me to believe otherwise...
13:55:47 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I might run it in a far better system
13:55:52 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Like Unknown Armies
13:55:55 <Mekkis> Tziro.png shared by "Shiftkey Girl"
13:56:14 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> OKAY
13:56:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> THERE IS LIKE
13:56:26 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> ONE OTHER SITE THAT I FORGOT TO DO IT ON BECAUSE I WAS RUSHING
13:56:45 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> WAY TO NITPICK
13:57:49 <Mekkis> I'm saying this because it makes you appear obnoxious. If you're actually here to be obnoxious, then well... that's a good way to get /ignored.
13:58:17 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> hey man
13:58:28 <Mekkis> I'm just telling you things how they are.
13:58:32 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i'm not the one whose argument was 'the system sucks, but fuck if i wanna change it'
13:58:45 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i don't think i'm the one being obnoxious here
14:00:04 <Mekkis> your argument is "The system sucks. I don't know or care why or how, but we should put some half-baked undocumented stuff that's really easy, In My Head, to "fix it". Actually working out whether or not it's a "fix" at all is absolutely not required."
14:00:32 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Adding Facing would totally fix it
14:00:35 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> hell
14:00:44 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> you don't even need to write anything down
14:00:44 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> !
14:00:46 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> as I've said
14:00:50 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> 'Stealth'
14:01:21 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Like everything else the pathfinder system tries to break down and categorize homogenically
14:01:27 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> is far too broad to do that
14:01:34 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> recognise that enemies have facing
14:01:41 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> and you don't need concealment to stealth
14:01:55 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> add modifiers based on what's appropriate
14:02:06 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> the rules
14:02:15 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> do not cover everything imaginable
14:02:19 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> nor should they
14:02:25 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> that's what our imagination is fucking for
14:02:35 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> that's what the DM is for
14:02:53 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> 'Does this seem like an appropriate Modifier? Y/N'
14:02:56 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> A guide is okay
14:02:59 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Like
14:03:08 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> 'Here are some examples'
14:03:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> 3.5 understood that, somewhat
14:03:31 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> but being hidebound by the rules is moronic
14:03:53 <Mekkis> you know, there are full stops. You don't need to put a carriage return after every phrase.
14:04:44 <Mekkis> It just makes it look like you're doing it to SHOUT YOUR NAME at as more and more as we try to put your disjointed drivel into the semblance of a coherent sentence.
14:04:47 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> way to fucking ad hominem
14:05:04 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> how about come up with some fucking pertinent argumentative points
14:05:10 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> instead of picking apart my posting style
14:05:14 <Mekkis> plus, in those twenty lines, you haven't made any points for me to argue.
14:05:14 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> in a vain attempt to assgrab
14:05:53 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> what
14:06:08 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Society play binds you to rules, not rulings?
14:06:14 <Mekkis> what?
14:06:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> That's not a pertinent argumentative poitn?
14:06:53 <Mekkis> you haven't made any points at all. You're saying "We should have facing". Then you're talking about rules and modifiers based on what's appropriate. There isn't any point in there.
14:07:11 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You're asking for a fix to the stealth system
14:07:13 <Mekkis> The rules ALREADY cover modifiers based on circumstance.
14:07:24 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Yes
14:07:27 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> But only certain ones
14:07:32 <Mekkis> ummm... no.
14:07:59 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> actually, yes
14:08:13 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> society play depends on one ruling to be relevant across all games
14:08:20 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> you can't come up with modifiers on the fly
14:08:27 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> otherwise the games wouldn't sync
14:08:33 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> according to it's own rules
14:10:01 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> That is what all my arguements here have been based on
14:10:11 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> people desperately searching for offical rules to cover their ass
14:10:23 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> rather than being able to come up with workarounds
14:15:34 <Mekkis> as a GM, you're supposed to hand out circumstance bonuses and penalties based on favourable/unfavourible conditions
14:16:02 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> but you're not a GM
14:16:05 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> you're a 'judge'
14:16:40 <Mekkis> same thing. You're still supposed to hand out circumstance bonuses and penalties based on conditions
14:17:33 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> but then by what fashion is a fair standard of bonuses and penalties meted out across all games, to allow all games to blend with each other?
14:18:10 <Mekkis> ETV
14:18:47 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Which is?
14:23:03 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Oh
14:23:16 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> So then why the fuck is everyone here so scared to make a fucking ruling?
14:30:59 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> It doesn't matter that you have apparent freedom.
14:31:12 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Every Society player, including you, has been bound by rules.
14:31:21 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Maybe try using less rules some time
14:31:27 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> See how that works out for you
14:31:45 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Mess with the system.
14:31:50 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Try facing out
14:32:20 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Speaking of
14:32:33 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I'm going to run the Fantasy L4D2 game in Unknown Armies
14:33:30 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Less housefixes, just straight, out of the box functionality
14:48:18 <Hydrazine> I agree with Mekkis' point. Its easy to say facing and stealth can work, and will make the game better, but that isn't the same as actually doing it.
14:48:49 <Hydrazine> I agree that stealth can and likely will be improved in the future.
14:51:37 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I have played Stealth games with facing
14:51:41 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> they are called videogames
14:51:45 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> they are really fucking fun
14:51:56 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> and I've also done it a couple of times in RPGs
14:51:58 <Hydrazine> How many of them were for 4-5 people?
14:52:07 <Hydrazine> The video games, I mean.
14:52:11 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> MGS Peace Walker
14:52:14 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Uhhh
14:52:35 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Assassin's Creed had stealth multiplayer
14:52:39 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Brotherhood and 3\
14:52:49 <Hydrazine> pvp, isn't it?
14:53:15 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Yes.
14:53:19 <Hydrazine> I think I tried it in brotherhood, if thats the one where you're hunting down other players on a big open map.
14:53:32 <Hydrazine> That doesn't really apply to cooperative tabletop.
14:54:24 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Oh!
14:54:30 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Just about every fantasy MMO
14:55:10 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Running With Rifles can be played stealthily and co-operatively
14:55:29 <Hydrazine> I guess my point is that not every video game theme can adequately convert to a tabletop RPG.
14:55:51 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Except for the examples I have given.
14:56:05 <Hydrazine> AC:Brotherhood doesn't really work.
14:56:18 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> So that leaves me with, like, 15
14:56:21 <Hydrazine> Fantasy MMOs: Push the stealth button and laugh.
14:56:29 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Not really.
14:56:38 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Most of them include facing as a major factor
14:57:54 <Hydrazine> Facing works in video games. So does 40 vs 40 real time battles. Where theres big computers doing all the math. Making a DM do it at a table isn't the same thing.
14:59:12 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> It's easy as shit to do in RPGs
15:00:08 <Hydrazine> So write up some rules I can test out with my reg gaming table, to add facing to either 3.5 or Pathfinder.
15:00:14 <Hydrazine> I'll be happy to test it out and give feedback.
15:02:32 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> +2 when in the 90 degree cone of vision in front of the guard, -2 when outside of it for stealth
15:03:13 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> players and enemies announce their facing, anyone that gets attacked from the sides or rear, the attacker gets +2 to attack, just as flanking
15:03:30 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Oh, whoops
15:03:40 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Those stealth modifiers should be switched around.
15:05:49 <Hydrazine> When can one change facing? Is there any difference between facing on straight X/Y or diagonals? Are those first +2/-2 modifiers only for stealth?
15:07:28 <Hydrazine> So on a grid, facing is effectively a cone starting at.. 3 squares, yes?
15:07:57 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Players announce their facing at the end of their turn, use your best judgement, if it seems like the enemy is in front of them, go for that, if they don't seem to be, they're not. And yes, although use your common sense
15:08:34 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Yes.
15:09:17 <Hydrazine> How does facing affect sneak attack? Combat maneuvers?
15:10:37 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> You have to do an attack roll to sneak attack someone, don't you. And yes, they apply to some combat maneouvers. Use your common sense (No disarming the left handed weapon when you're on the right)
15:13:32 <Falang> wow, still going eh
15:14:40 <Hydrazine> More specific then I guess: Flanking and stealthed attacks allows sneak attack damage. Does facing?
15:16:37 <Falang> I'm not sure you should necessarily do more damage from being attacked from behind, but it's certainly easier to hit..
15:17:11 <Hydrazine> Then why do you do more damage from flanking?
15:17:33 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Pretty sure you don't
15:17:39 <Hydrazine> Rogues do.
15:17:47 <Hydrazine> Thats like, their entire 'thing' in combat.
15:17:49 <Falang> well everybody knows rogues suck, so...
15:17:58 <Hydrazine> So lets keep rogues sucking?
15:18:01 <Falang> Or at least Mekkis does.
15:18:06 <Hydrazine> Lets just ignore it and hope they go away?
15:18:16 <Falang> No, and I wouldn't play a rogue as constantly going for sneak attacks either, that's a bit too meta isn't it?
15:18:32 <Hydrazine> I disagree.
15:18:50 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> To perform a sneak attack, the target must be unaware of the rogue
15:19:25 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> So that can be starting the fight from stealth
15:19:27 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Or
15:19:28 <Hydrazine> Lets look at the facts. I'm a rogue. I KNOW that I am more effective when flanking an enemy. Proven fact. To not attempt to fight at your best every time, is silly.
15:19:30 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> During the fight
15:19:43 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Move out of the target's line of sight
15:19:50 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> and stealth move behind them
15:20:23 <Hydrazine> Whats the difference between stealthing out of line of sight, and just.. moving?
15:21:25 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> When you're rolling stealth, you're actively moving so as to conceal your presence, such as moving in a lower profile, and muffling your footsteps.
15:22:27 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> Okay
15:22:34 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> I wanna play some fuckin everquest now
15:22:35 <SHIFTKEYGIRL> see ya
15:40:52 Wrothmonk has quit (Connection closed)
15:48:44 * Mekkis sets ban on SHIFTKEYGIRL!*@*
15:48:55 Mekkis has kicked SHIFTKEYGIRL from #d&d (Change your nick.)
15:51:01 * Mekkis removes ban on SHIFTKEYGIRL!*@*
15:51:40 MekkisIsAShitbird ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
15:51:52 <MekkisIsAShitbird> Any better, oh petulant one?
15:51:54 <Falang> rofl
15:51:56 <Falang> hahahah
15:51:59 <Mekkis> of course
15:52:04 <Falang> Burn.
15:52:22 <Mekkis> now I'll need to ban your IP addresds, rather than your usename
15:52:31 * Mekkis sets ban on *!*[email protected]
15:52:36 <Falang> Yeah that's a great idea, ban somebody that wants to DM games around here.
15:52:38 Mekkis has kicked MekkisIsAShitbird from #d&d (Mekkis)
15:52:58 <Mekkis> Falang, be serious. He/she was not intending to do anything except troll.
15:53:06 <Hydrazine> Falang, you do you really agree with the attitude?
15:53:30 <Falang> I didn't read all the attitude, but considering how dead this place is most of the time it's nice to have a little conversation.
15:54:26 <Hydrazine> Getting banned with instructions, and coming back offensive to the guy that just banned you? Its childish and what do you expect?
15:54:37 <Falang> I'm pretty sure she was doing a game, I've already looked at the document she worked up.
15:54:44 <Mekkis> so had I
15:54:49 <Falang> Uh, let's be clear, just up and banning someone because of their nick is a dick move.
15:54:53 <Mekkis> it's not very... well thought out
15:55:03 <Falang> If you'd SAID hey change your nick first, that's one thing.
15:55:08 <Mekkis> ummm... I had
15:55:11 <Mekkis> several times
15:55:25 <Mekkis> and not just today.
15:55:26 <Hydrazine> He did.
15:55:39 <Falang> And her response was what?
15:55:57 <Mekkis> "I don't find it offensive."
15:56:59 <Falang> Meh. what's so obnoxious about it?
15:57:04 <Falang> The caps?
15:57:14 <Mekkis> <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i'm not the one whose argument was 'the system sucks, but fuck if i wanna change it'
15:57:14 <Mekkis> <SHIFTKEYGIRL> i don't think i'm the one being obnoxious here
15:57:49 <Mekkis> yes. I would have no problem if he/she changed it to ShiftKeyGirl or something.
15:58:57 <Falang> She changed it, remove the ban.
15:59:17 <Falang> You seriously need to put some ranks in Diplomacy.
15:59:27 <Mekkis> you need to put ranks into sense motive
15:59:59 * Mekkis removes ban on *!*[email protected]
16:01:18 ShiftKeyGirl ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
16:02:24 <Falang> There we go, that wasn't hard was it.
16:09:29 <ShiftKeyGirl> So, Mekkis
16:09:40 <ShiftKeyGirl> Given that I just hashed out a facing system for Pathfinder
16:09:48 <ShiftKeyGirl> Still think that established rules are best?
16:10:17 <Mekkis> I never said that I thought the established rules were the best.
16:10:30 <Mekkis> But, given your rules, I can see them very easily abused.
16:11:05 <ShiftKeyGirl> Like how?
16:11:35 <Mekkis> since you declare your facing at the end of your turn, I can just move around you and attack you, guaranteeing me the "no-facing" bonus.
16:12:28 <ShiftKeyGirl> ...What?
16:12:33 <ShiftKeyGirl> Define 'move around'
16:12:42 <ShiftKeyGirl> In slightly more nebulous terms, please.
16:12:47 <ShiftKeyGirl> I like a good challenge.
16:13:13 <Mekkis> if you're facing me, I simply move past you so I'm no longer in your cone of vision, then attack you.
16:14:31 <Mekkis> bonus points for being a mounted archer, to pull off a full-attack in the process.
16:14:38 Cleo10 ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
16:14:46 <ShiftKeyGirl> Because all fights start with both participants right in each other's faces, with nothing interesting happening, and no other participants
16:14:59 Cleo10 ([email protected]) has left #d&d
16:15:10 <Mekkis> that doesn't... solve the issue.
16:15:20 <ShiftKeyGirl> Okay
16:15:40 <ShiftKeyGirl> OH
16:15:43 <ShiftKeyGirl> Oh
16:15:45 <ShiftKeyGirl> I see what I did wrong
16:15:53 <ShiftKeyGirl> I assumed pathfinder was a better system
16:16:09 <ShiftKeyGirl> Where guys can't tank 20 stabs to the gut
16:16:18 <ShiftKeyGirl> then again
16:16:25 <Mekkis> what are you trying to say?
16:16:35 <Mekkis> we're still talking facing. Stop changing the subject.
16:16:39 <Hydrazine> Um, at level 1, 1-2 hits from pretty much anything is disabling.
16:16:53 <Mekkis> If you're trying to say that you don't like Pathfinder, why are you trying to "improve" it?
16:17:03 <ShiftKeyGirl> The challenge.
16:17:06 <ShiftKeyGirl> Anyway.
16:18:25 <ShiftKeyGirl> If you maneuver behind him... Okay, so, you move behind your enemy, flank them... And then they get to do the same to you when it's their turn, and you've put yourself in the perfect position to get stabbed?
16:18:44 <ShiftKeyGirl> I am trying to follow your logic here
16:19:21 <ShiftKeyGirl> Because he gets to move too
16:19:26 <Mekkis> "Players announce their facing at the end of their turn, use your best judgement, if it seems like the enemy is in front of them, go for that, if they don't seem to be, they're not. And yes, although use your common sense"
16:19:35 <Mekkis> That's the basis for your facing rules, right?
16:19:38 <Hydrazine> So combat should be two people doing circles around eachother?
16:19:48 <Hydrazine> Assuming its 1 on 1.
16:20:30 <Hydrazine> I'd rather not have facing than have combat do this stupid dance to get behind people every round.
16:20:58 <ShiftKeyGirl> Well
16:21:09 <Mekkis> no, you get face-to-face with them, then 5' out of their cone, around them, and enjoy your full-attack with bonuses!
16:21:49 <ShiftKeyGirl> Real fights involve a lot of circling to get into a better position. And once again, you're assuming that these fights take place in a vaccuum
16:22:22 <ShiftKeyGirl> And I said use your fucking common sense Mekkis
16:22:38 <ShiftKeyGirl> If they're diagonally in front of someone
16:22:43 <ShiftKeyGirl> They're in front of them
16:23:07 <Mekkis> so if you start in front of them, you can 5' so you're beside them, not in front of them at all. Even with diagonals.
16:23:52 <ShiftKeyGirl> Could have sworn that you couldn't take a 5 foot step diagonally across from an enemy like that
16:23:56 <ShiftKeyGirl> If you can
16:23:56 <Mekkis> It does make reach weapons more powerful.
16:24:02 <Mekkis> you can.
16:24:08 <ShiftKeyGirl> Okay
16:24:12 <ShiftKeyGirl> Now you can't any more
16:24:29 <Mekkis> how you considered the implications of that off-the-cuff rules change?
16:24:50 <ShiftKeyGirl> And I suppose I should make some sort of system to handle movement and facing.
16:25:01 <ShiftKeyGirl> Fucking come on, Mekkis
16:25:10 <ShiftKeyGirl> Before you notice the exploit in this facing system
16:25:20 <ShiftKeyGirl> Were you ever taking 5-foot steps like that before?
16:25:25 <ShiftKeyGirl> Anyway
16:25:26 <Mekkis> yes.
16:25:50 <Mekkis> it's a common manoeuvre to give ranged characters a clear shot
16:26:02 <ShiftKeyGirl> If you're moving in different direction than you're facing
16:26:02 <ShiftKeyGirl> You move at half speed
16:26:13 <Falang> I've 5-footed out of combat with my sorc, it does happen.
16:26:26 <ShiftKeyGirl> Yeah, backwards
16:26:30 <ShiftKeyGirl> Out of combat
16:26:32 <Falang> more commonly people are charging into combat, but hey
16:26:33 <Mekkis> And please stop swearing. It doesn't add to the conversation.
16:26:35 <ShiftKeyGirl> This is staying right in it
16:26:57 <ShiftKeyGirl> I'm allowed to swear as much as I want.
16:27:03 <ShiftKeyGirl> Anyway.
16:27:10 <Mekkis> So you're now saying that you're moving at half-speed when moving backwards? But facing isn't defined until the end of your turn. So that doesn't make sense
16:27:26 <Hydrazine> And hes allowed to ban you for it if he wants. You can either both play that game, or try to be nice and cooperate.
16:27:50 <ShiftKeyGirl> Hmmm
16:27:53 <Mekkis> And if you're saying that moving backwards is at half speed, you can't 5' backwards. That would have a lot of implications.
16:28:02 <ShiftKeyGirl> What?
16:28:09 <ShiftKeyGirl> When did I say that?
16:28:16 <Hydrazine> Mekkis: you can 5' as long as your total move speed is >5'.
16:28:18 <Mekkis> "Players announce their facing at the end of their turn"
16:28:29 <Mekkis> Hydrazine, not if your movement is impeded.
16:28:54 <ShiftKeyGirl> Well, I suppose being able to change your facing once per turn would be better
16:29:02 <ShiftKeyGirl> Backpedaling, or flat out running
16:29:04 <ShiftKeyGirl> That works
16:29:08 <Falang> It's a lot better than no facing at all
16:29:42 <Mekkis> so a sorcerer couldn't 5' away from an enemy and then cast a spell.
16:29:46 <Mekkis> at said enemy.
16:29:57 <ShiftKeyGirl> I said that you can't use your 5-foot step to diagonally cut through an enemy's square
16:30:04 <ShiftKeyGirl> you can certainly 5-foot backwards
16:30:10 <ShiftKeyGirl> Oh
16:30:19 <ShiftKeyGirl> I see where the confusion is coming from
16:30:26 <ShiftKeyGirl> You move half your speed
16:30:34 <Mekkis> which means you can't take a 5' step
16:30:37 <ShiftKeyGirl> Unless your speed is the minimum possible
16:30:39 <ShiftKeyGirl> IE\
16:30:40 <ShiftKeyGirl> 5
16:30:53 <ShiftKeyGirl> I thought that in my head as just being assumed
16:30:56 <Mekkis> You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered"
16:30:56 <Falang> I think you'd want to say someone could always do a 5' step
16:31:05 <Falang> the whole combat style falls apart without that
16:31:26 <Falang> (within reason)
16:31:46 <ShiftKeyGirl> How idiot proof do I need to make this language?
16:31:51 <Mekkis> Adding something like this has a lot of implications. It's important to find them all.
16:31:54 <Falang> very.
16:32:02 <ShiftKeyGirl> Movement is hampered. 5-foot step is exempt.
16:32:13 <Mekkis> ShiftKeyGirl, it has to be at least as comprehensive as the existing combat rules.
16:32:38 <ShiftKeyGirl> That's... not really a high bar, Mekkis
16:32:43 <ShiftKeyGirl> Not in the slightest
16:32:54 <Mekkis> I know.
16:33:04 <Mekkis> but what you've said so far doesn't cut it.
16:33:08 <Falang> And mekkis does have a point, unintended consequences are rife in 3.75 dating back 30 years.. it's layers upon layers of rationalizations and contrived rules for the sake of appearances.
16:33:37 <ShiftKeyGirl> Oh god
16:33:39 <ShiftKeyGirl> Look
16:33:47 <ShiftKeyGirl> If you're going to ruleslawyer
16:33:54 <ShiftKeyGirl> Or play silly monkeys with the rules
16:33:57 <ShiftKeyGirl> We don't talk
16:34:08 <Falang> Mekkis even tried justifying spell memorization by saying it was like electron shells, I thought I would die..
16:34:28 <ShiftKeyGirl> I assume common sense and Wheaton's law is present whenever I discuss rules
16:34:38 <Mekkis> Wheaton's law?
16:34:43 <Falang> Don't be a dick
16:34:45 <ShiftKeyGirl> Don't be a dick.
16:35:30 <Falang> okay, how about take a few pregens, fire up DevCA and discuss it with a visual aid and examples?
16:35:55 <Falang> That's a lot more practical than just arguing. at least the errors and issues will be right there.
16:36:02 <ShiftKeyGirl> ugh
16:36:12 <ShiftKeyGirl> please don't make me generate a proper pathfinder character
16:36:18 <ShiftKeyGirl> i've been awake for 38 hours
16:36:24 <Falang> there will be situations that pop up, strange encounters, or tactics etc..
16:36:36 <Hydrazine> Noone said anything like that.
16:36:37 <Falang> no no, there are pregens. or for that matter, no character necessary. assumed values.
16:36:44 <Falang> at least have a map open
16:36:57 <Hydrazine> Does a 10' square enemy have more facing squares than a smaller one?
16:37:18 <Falang> er.. it would have to. depending on it's eye placement that is.
16:37:28 <Mekkis> How do you deal with creatures with multiple heads?
16:37:30 <Falang> lots of animals go well beyond our 120 degree view
16:37:49 <Hydrazine> So are there specific rules for facing angles for things with different heads?
16:38:13 <Hydrazine> Cows. Cows can see almost all the way around, can't they?
16:38:14 <ShiftKeyGirl> There shouldn't have to be
16:38:16 <Mekkis> Does it cover darkvision? Scent? Tremorsense? True Seeing?
16:38:22 <Falang> I think.. facing is a bit more about where your limbs are and whatnot when it comes to combat with a multiheaded beast
16:38:23 <Hydrazine> So if a druid beastshapes into a cow..
16:38:41 <Falang> I mean if you're fighting a.. what's that 2 headed giant?
16:38:48 <Hydrazine> etting?
16:38:48 <ShiftKeyGirl> Ettin
16:38:49 <Hydrazine> ettin?
16:38:51 <Falang> yeah
16:39:15 <Falang> You're fighting an ettin, one head might see you coming up behind him to stab it, but he's already facing fowards with his humanoid shaped body and can't do anything about it.
16:39:27 <Falang> he doesn't have tentacles or a tail
16:39:39 <Falang> so it's not all just about sight
16:39:48 <Mekkis> How does a Robe Of Eyes interact with all of this?
16:39:51 <Falang> Hydrazine: seriously, a cow?
16:40:02 <ShiftKeyGirl> My god
16:40:29 <ShiftKeyGirl> I'm far too sick to try and fit Facing into Pathfinder's overbloated rules system
16:40:31 <Hydrazine> Falang: It was the first example I thought up with a very high visual field. And bulls are well known to be dangerous.
16:40:38 <ShiftKeyGirl> but I can't sleep yet
16:40:40 <Falang> Good enough.
16:41:12 <Mekkis> What if there's an elf riding a horse? Would the horse's vision be different from the elf's?
16:41:17 <Falang> SKG: Give it a rest then. There's nothing saying it has to be worked out today, but I do see some agreement here on possible changes, and issues are coming up that need to be addressed.
16:41:31 <Falang> Yes, not that it would matter.
16:41:50 <ShiftKeyGirl> Why does there have to be a rule for everything?
16:41:56 <ShiftKeyGirl> Every god damm little thing.
16:41:56 <Hydrazine> What if its an elf paladin on a horse smart enough to do everything about it?
16:42:04 <Falang> to prevent sitting around and arguging for half an hour when it comes up.
16:42:15 <ShiftKeyGirl> The counter to that
16:42:18 <Mekkis> Why does there have to be a rule for facing in the first place?
16:42:18 <ShiftKeyGirl> Is usually
16:42:19 <Falang> you pre-argue and think it out until it's mostly okay in advance.
16:42:31 <ShiftKeyGirl> In anything but the most egregious cases
16:42:41 <ShiftKeyGirl> Is
16:42:47 <ShiftKeyGirl> 'I'm the DM'
16:43:01 <ShiftKeyGirl> The DM of course considers the players
16:43:09 <ShiftKeyGirl> But the DM is control of getting the game moving
16:43:46 <ShiftKeyGirl> Sometimes, you just gotta knuckle down and make a ruling based on common sense
16:43:51 <ShiftKeyGirl> On logic
16:43:54 <ShiftKeyGirl> Like
16:43:57 <Hydrazine> But this doesn't work if your players have no idea if the tactics they want to use are even viable in the rules framework.
16:44:11 <ShiftKeyGirl> Well, they can ask you????
16:44:14 <Hydrazine> I wouldn't consider making a rogue in a system with facing unless I knew how it worked before hand.
16:44:15 <ShiftKeyGirl> Before the game???
16:44:17 <Mekkis> we just have.
16:44:18 <Hydrazine> ..Isn't that what we're doing now?
16:44:24 <Falang> Yep. they have to know the rules too, otherwise the game is still stalled while the GM explains it.
16:44:41 <ShiftKeyGirl> Ugh
16:44:53 <ShiftKeyGirl> I had just forgotten the many stupid things that Pathfinder has
16:45:01 <ShiftKeyGirl> like tremorsense
16:45:02 <Hydrazine> Major systems troubleshooting DURING combat is just a bad experience for everyone.
16:45:07 <Hydrazine> That was in 3.5 too.
16:45:16 <ShiftKeyGirl> I played one game of 3.5
16:45:17 <Falang> Well I don't think a lot of other systems are as detailed as PF as far as combat, pretty sure there's no facing in WoD
16:45:26 <ShiftKeyGirl> But like
16:45:27 <Hydrazine> Correct, Falang.
16:45:33 <Hydrazine> Or Deadlands.
16:45:33 <Falang> I rather like how detailed the combat is, but it does have flaws.
16:45:36 <Hydrazine> Which is plenty of fun.
16:45:38 <ShiftKeyGirl> Even though I only remembered it when you brought it up
16:45:48 <ShiftKeyGirl> It seems like the simplest common sense thing to me
16:46:13 <Falang> It is, but changing one thing for common sense breaks 3 other things that are well established
16:46:16 <ShiftKeyGirl> You can only feel their feet behind you
16:46:31 <ShiftKeyGirl> you have no idea where the attack is coming from
16:46:50 <ShiftKeyGirl> unless they're using TM28
16:46:57 <ShiftKeyGirl> which is a very rare tactic
16:47:12 <Falang> Perhaps it should be more like.. concealment. there are levels. you might not know someone is behind you, you might know/suspect someone is behind you, or you might see them behind you.
16:47:28 <Hydrazine> I always hated having to make some poor bastard pokemon learn flash.
16:50:08 <Falang> I have NO idea what that sentence means
16:50:18 <Falang> I must be old.
16:50:19 <ShiftKeyGirl> Technical Machine 28
16:50:23 <ShiftKeyGirl> From pokemon
16:50:25 <ShiftKeyGirl> also known
16:50:27 <ShiftKeyGirl> as Dig
16:51:29 <Falang> I have NO idea what any of those sentences mean. I know the word pokemon.
16:51:38 <Falang> You people are nerds.
16:51:39 <Hydrazine> Too old.
16:51:41 <Mekkis> So the problems so far: Declaring facing. Tracking enemies. 5' steps around enemies to set up flank/leave cone of vision? Multiple heads. Darkvision/tremorsense/true seeing. Robe of eyes. Mounted Combat. Interaction with acrobatics for tumbling - do you threaten? Enemies above or below you. Gaze attacks. Averting your eyes. Helmets/goggles restricting vision?
16:52:20 <ShiftKeyGirl> There is just too much shit
16:52:32 <ShiftKeyGirl> to keep track of
16:52:52 <Mekkis> I said that at the start.
16:53:17 <Falang> That's not too bad, all things considered.
16:53:21 <ShiftKeyGirl> We'd be fucking fine if we worked on Rulings in game, not rules
16:53:36 <ShiftKeyGirl> Dealing with things as they come up
16:53:39 <Falang> it's no different than how the rest of the rules got made, somebody has to do it.
16:54:08 <ShiftKeyGirl> Why can't every system be as simply beautiful as Unknown Armies
16:54:45 <Falang> you can have tactically detailed and realistic or you can have simply beautiful
16:54:53 <Falang> I prefer the former.
16:55:01 <ShiftKeyGirl> In Unknown Armies, you have both
16:55:33 <Falang> I'll read it and see.
16:55:55 <Falang> 3.75 evolved over multiple generations. *shrug*
16:58:06 <Falang> I think it would be great if we work out some house rules and try to address these problems, why not? Maybe they'll work out well and we can submit it to Paizo or something..
16:58:29 <Falang> Though i don't think darkvision is a problem. ;)
17:01:34 * ChanOP removes channel operator status from Mekkis
17:02:16 <Falang> nor do i think you can't stealth in darkvision either.. while it's not the infravision of D&D, I recall reading some of those drow novels and even with thermal sight you can hide yourself in thermal patterns of other objects.. like submarines and thermal layers.
17:02:46 <Hydrazine> Thats not how submarines hide!
17:03:00 <Hydrazine> They hide by being really quiet.
17:03:38 <Hydrazine> And the black paint helps. Yellow is silly.
17:04:10 <Mekkis> that way they run into each other.
17:04:59 <Hydrazine> ...Happens.
17:05:03 <Brunius> And then you get chinese subs popping up next to 'murican ships during exercises just being like "sup?
17:05:05 <Brunius> "
17:05:17 <Hydrazine> Careful planning for sub movement helps us not run into our own guys.
17:05:28 <Hydrazine> Running into enemy subs, thats another story.
17:05:33 <Mekkis> so you run into British ones instead
17:05:53 <Hydrazine> Its less common these days,.
17:05:58 <Hydrazine> Back in WW2 it was pretty common.
17:06:18 <Mekkis> I suppose there were more subs that time
17:06:41 <Mekkis> I thought subs hid by finding a merchant ship and staying underneath it
17:07:20 <Hydrazine> Well, that does work, but its not always practical.
17:08:01 <Avatar> yo
17:08:14 <Falang> anyway..
17:08:19 <Falang> Hey Av.
17:09:15 <Avatar> sup
17:09:21 <Avatar> has shifty left in a huff forever yet
17:09:59 <ShiftKeyGirl> Nope
17:10:04 <ShiftKeyGirl> Still here
17:10:05 <ShiftKeyGirl> Still awake
17:10:14 <ShiftKeyGirl> Still think you can do impossible shit with horses?
17:10:17 <Avatar> just looking shifty without your caps
17:10:22 <Avatar> don't think I didn't spot you
17:11:16 <Hydrazine> hey Avatar. Sup?
17:11:21 <Avatar> yo sup
17:11:46 <Hydrazine> Hey, I watched some of the dressage in the last olympics.
17:11:58 <Mekkis> at level 5, if you're not doing impossible shit, there's something wrong.
17:12:16 <Avatar> I was actually looking at uh
17:12:21 <Avatar> the figurine that gets you a griffon
17:12:25 <Avatar> is that still viable at level 11
17:12:45 <Ballig> what do you mean by viable
17:13:09 <Avatar> well it has like 40hp
17:13:21 <Avatar> I think I have a ring of feather falling but still
17:14:55 <Mekkis> for Buck?
17:16:07 <Avatar> yeah
17:16:13 <Avatar> can you use firearms on a mount
17:16:24 <Mekkis> of course you can
17:16:26 <Avatar> you must be able to, I've done it before I think
17:16:35 <Avatar> just not longbows
17:16:39 <Brunius> Can you control a mount without your hands
17:16:43 <Mekkis> it the mount takes a double move, you take penalties to hit
17:16:49 <Mekkis> yes. DC5 ride check, iirc
17:16:54 <Avatar> yeah that never happens
17:17:17 <Avatar> so figurine of whatits gryphon for 10K is a good investment aye
17:17:24 <Avatar> even if it dies it just reverts to a statuette
17:17:31 <Ballig> Bobbob has only used it in one scenario
17:17:42 <Avatar> what level is Bobbob
17:17:44 <Ballig> 8
17:17:51 <Avatar> barely elite
17:17:56 <Ballig> barely
17:17:58 <Avatar> you will be using it
17:18:01 <Avatar> mark my words
17:18:07 <Mekkis> why not just buy a bunch of giant vultures?
17:18:18 <Avatar> how much are they
17:18:21 <Mekkis> 1125gp for a combat trained one
17:18:28 <Avatar> I don't remember seeing the cost for those in the CRB
17:18:32 <Mekkis> 750gp if you want to train it yourself
17:18:36 <Mekkis> Animal Archive
17:18:40 <Brunius> Because of the 'one combat pet' rule
17:18:41 <Mekkis> p14
17:18:50 <Ballig> isn't that only per scenario
17:18:54 <Mekkis> Brunius, sure. You replace the dead one.
17:19:24 <Hydrazine> Name them like hurricanes.
17:19:47 <Mekkis> Gillard Rudd Howard Keating Hawke?
17:19:57 <Hydrazine> Arnold, Betty, Chris, David..
17:20:13 <Hydrazine> Aren't those big Aussie politicians?
17:20:23 <Mekkis> If you get to Fraser Whitlam then something's wrong.
17:20:39 <Mekkis> Prime ministers in descending order
17:21:19 <Ballig> Hawke the vulture
17:21:36 <Mekkis> Fyshwick the vulture
17:21:51 <Ballig> he's already got a notorious suburb named after him
17:23:19 <Brunius> Why does Fyshwick sound familiar
17:23:25 <Brunius> I don't think I've got family living there
17:24:37 <Mekkis> If you get to Barton, then you're really doing something wrong, and should have bought the figurine.
17:31:54 Topic for #d&d is: PFS: Thurs 23rd 7:30pm (tier 1-5,Mekkis) / Fri 24th 6pm (tier 1-5,Avatar) | WotW: Sat 25th 1:30pm || All topic times are AEST (UTC+10:00); set up your timezone on the site for local times in the Schedule! | D&D and Pathfinder Online http://www.pfrpg.com.au
17:31:54 Topic for #d&d set by Avatar at Thu May 16 19:56:57 2013
17:31:54 <***> Buffer Playback...
17:31:54 <***> Playback Complete.
17:38:08 <Avatar> apparently that carpet of flying question has been going for years and there's no offiicial answers despite 8 FAQ requests
17:38:21 <Avatar> I'm not entirely sure anyone at paizo actually looks at the FAQs
17:38:32 <Falang> *cough*
17:38:39 <Avatar> bless you
17:39:23 <Falang> Like I said, too busy making new books to sell to fix things that are broken in the current ones. That's not a good business model.
17:40:51 <Avatar> you are the most cynical person I have ever met
17:40:57 <Falang> You're welcome.
17:41:03 <Avatar> :P
17:41:08 <Falang> *snicker*
17:41:34 <Falang> You just complained about the same shit I said, admit it.
17:43:03 <Avatar> I did but you complain about everything
17:43:12 <Brunius> "An issue hasn't been resolved" != "This company has a bad business model"
17:43:12 <Falang> Somebody has to.
17:44:06 <Falang> I think the evidence is piling up quite nicely. Apparently the typesetters are too busy to correct the fucked up First Steps, they're not answerin FAQ requests, stealth is still broken after years, etc.
17:44:34 <Brunius> What's wrong with first steps?
17:44:41 <Brunius> They answer some FAQ requests
17:44:47 <Brunius> What's broken about stealth?
17:44:56 <Falang> the ambush near the end of FS1. Pretty much everybody in this channel admitted it was broken.
17:45:00 <Avatar> I am starting to think they answer the FAQ requests they answer by accident, because they're on the way
17:45:17 <Avatar> the ambush at the end of FS1 isn't broken
17:45:23 <Avatar> it can be tough, but it's supposed to be
17:45:25 <Falang> The best excuse mekkis could come up with was that typesetting takes a lot of time... on pdfs.
17:45:40 <Avatar> yeah but you can't trust what mekkis says on a good day
17:45:44 <Falang> I think the point was that it was poorly written and didn't make sense, not that it was too hard.
17:45:45 <Brunius> Answer the question
17:45:56 <Falang> Steven even said everybody knew it was busted.
17:46:01 <Falang> Avatar: tell me about it!
17:46:31 <ShiftKeyGirl> a company that bases almost it's entire business model on pre-packaged shit-ventures and unanimous, robotic rulings that are in place for the entire fan-base
17:46:37 <ShiftKeyGirl> should answer it's fucking faqs
17:46:39 <Falang> oh, the stealth? I dunno, pretty much everybody says it's broken, including mekkis. rogues are useless, etc.
17:46:42 <ShiftKeyGirl> end of story
17:47:56 <Falang> I want to see PF and Paizo succeed, but this neglect isn't the way to do it. You can't put out 5 editions of a book with busted stealth rules, so that basically nobody bothers tryin to use stealth at all.
17:48:11 <Falang> wtf is that
17:54:13 <Hydrazine> Falang, I as well am eager to see rogues and monks in a better place than they are now.
18:04:31 <Mekkis> I would think that prioritising selling things isn't a bad business model...
18:05:22 <Falang> screwing old customers to sell new products isn't though.
18:05:43 <Falang> or should I say DEVELOPING new products, selling is done on the website, that's not a huge time sink.
18:06:07 <Mekkis> sure.
18:06:51 <Mekkis> But if you have X hours of development time, putting it where you make a profit is a good idea.
18:07:27 <Mekkis> What you've been saying is that Paizo should be spending more time giving stuff away for free.
18:07:30 Bloodlust ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
18:07:47 <Mekkis> where were you yesterday, Bloodlust?
18:08:09 <Bloodlust> hello folks
18:08:17 <Mekkis> where were you yesterday, Bloodlust?
18:08:18 <Bloodlust> I checked on the website and there was only two people signed up
18:08:31 <Bloodlust> do you mean for the game?
18:08:40 <Mekkis> ja
18:08:45 <Bloodlust> I wasn't able to access IRC on my phone or I would have come in here as well
18:08:59 <Bloodlust> I naturally assumed with only two signed up that it wasn't going to run
18:09:25 <Falang> Actually yes, they should spend more time on giving things away if that's how you categorize fixing something they already sold that was flawed.
18:09:25 <Bloodlust> I actually just came tearing home then for the Disappeared game - but that's next Friday lol
18:09:26 <Bloodlust> silly me
18:10:44 <Bloodlust> I hope you weren't waiting on me to run it
18:11:42 <Mekkis> Proquar was disappointed
18:12:14 <Bloodlust> I was very disappointed :(
18:12:27 <Bloodlust> I REALLY wanted to play that game
18:14:28 <Bloodlust> It actually means that I now have to pull out from the module I want to play in on Sunday morning because I needed that game to make level 3
18:14:31 <Bloodlust> double :(
18:17:36 <Avatar> yeah the game wasnt' happening with 2 people
18:17:57 <Avatar> it's only if we happened to have a third who was keen who didn't accept, but that's a longshot
18:18:26 <Bloodlust> That's what I thought
18:18:31 <Avatar> the game should really be ditched if people don't accept an hour before it's ready to go
18:18:45 <Avatar> 24 hours is my rule
18:19:08 <Bloodlust> I was getting on because I was running a bit late from work and wanted to let you guys know that but when I saw there was still only two people, and my phone wouldn't let me use the IRC web client I gave up
18:19:28 <Bloodlust> Anyone want to run anything tomorrow? Any time is fine :)
18:19:46 <Avatar> I'm going out to play a game in person tomorrow
18:19:52 <Avatar> likely to die, I think
18:19:56 <Bloodlust> I'm quite stuck now because I am listed for a module on Sunday morning (midnight Saturday) but I needed this one game to hit level 3
18:20:36 <Hydrazine> Hey Mekkis, you know what bugs me about subs in media? The entire idea that a non-expert can get useful data from sonar.
18:22:43 mortician ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
18:25:32 <Avatar> who is good with items
18:25:36 <Avatar> I need some good shit to buy with 30k
18:25:51 <mortician> lol
18:26:04 <Avatar> mort is that you
18:26:07 <Avatar> I know you're good at this
18:26:07 <mortician> what would that be avatar
18:26:09 <mortician> yeah
18:26:14 <Avatar> for my gunslinger
18:26:23 <Avatar> hey how much is a +4 upgrade
18:26:24 <mortician> not really
18:26:33 <Avatar> it might be time to get reliable on my musket
18:26:39 <Avatar> I am a bit over misfiring constantly
18:28:40 <Falang> Hydra: Funny, I always figured sonar would be pretty damned hard. They wanted me to do it when i was going to join the navy.
18:29:43 <mortician> good that you are aware
18:31:20 <Hydrazine> http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4f735de669bedd0c11000029-300/navy-sonar.jpg
18:31:34 <Hydrazine> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/subsecrets/images/sprisonscr.jpeg
18:31:48 <Hydrazine> I can't find any large, clear shots, but you get the idea.
18:31:51 <mortician> as if though
18:32:01 <mortician> pretty silly to advertise
18:32:27 <Bloodlust> I was looking at gunslingers the other day - are they any better than archers?
18:32:45 <Avatar> not really
18:32:48 <Avatar> different
18:32:48 <Bloodlust> ranged touch is nice, but archers seem to have more arrow-output
18:32:54 <Avatar> archers get more attacks, gunslingers hit touch AC
18:33:13 <Avatar> someone in here used to play an archer with my gunslinger
18:35:37 <Avatar> are wrists the worst slot
18:36:27 <Bloodlust> when making a gunslinger, is musket or pistol the best way to go?
18:36:45 <Bloodlust> dual-wielding pistols just doesn't seem to work for them as they need to reload
18:36:59 <Bloodlust> same deal with rapid shot
18:37:39 <Avatar> musket, unless you're making some sort of fanciful build
18:37:53 <Avatar> with the musket master archetype
18:38:04 <Avatar> no point going pure gunslinger with a musket
18:38:12 <Avatar> sword and pistol makes a pistol good
18:38:25 <Avatar> any kind of two weapon fighting, even two pistols, though it's tricky
18:38:37 <Avatar> you need weapon cords and funky antics that I would never bother with personally
18:38:55 <Avatar> there is some sort of munchkin build you can make with it that you'd want to stay far away from
18:39:16 <Bloodlust> apparently a dip into alchemist for the extra arm
18:39:52 <Bloodlust> you can't seem to use rapid shot when using a musket though because you need to reload
18:39:59 <Avatar> vivisectionist isn't legal
18:40:13 <Avatar> you can after a while
18:40:56 <Avatar> reloading gets reduced from full round to standard with rapid reload, then a class ability reduces it to a move action at 3rd or 5th level, then you buy alchemical catridges to reduce it to a free action
18:41:14 <Avatar> musket masters get rapid reload for free at 1st level
18:43:12 <Avatar> here we go
18:43:15 <Avatar> !item bracelet of second chances
18:43:16 <diebot> Avatar, BRACELET OF SECOND CHANCES [moderate conjuration] CL:9 wrists 15750gp, 0lb
18:43:18 <diebot> This bracelet is adorned with seven coral beads carved in intricate designs. When a critical hit or sneak attack is confirmed on the wearer, as an immediate action before damage is rolled, he can choose to convert the critical hit into a normal hit. Each time the wearer negates a critical hit or sneak attack in this manner, one bead shatters. When
18:43:18 <diebot> all seven are used up, the bracelet itself crumbles into powder. Source: Ultimate Equipment
18:43:25 <Avatar> that looks pretty sexy at level 11
18:43:43 <Bloodlust> I see the rapid reload that takes it from a full-round to a standard, and alchemical cartrides that take it from a standard to a move, but I'm not seeing how you get it lower than that
18:44:06 <Avatar> there's a class ability that reduces it
18:44:27 <Avatar> fast musket
18:48:55 <Avatar> I wonder if 16k is too much to spend on something that has only 7 uses
18:50:10 <Bloodlust> Oh, I see
18:50:20 <Bloodlust> so it becomes like a pistol for reloading - cool
18:51:02 <Avatar> it hurts in the early levels though
18:51:07 <Avatar> reloading every second round
18:54:16 <Bloodlust> yeah I could imagine
18:54:57 <Bloodlust> you have to go through four levels of that - urgh
18:55:05 <Bloodlust> your use to the party is very limited
18:55:49 <Avatar> ah, no
18:56:05 <Avatar> you get rapid reload at 1st level and can buy alchemical catridges at any time
18:58:36 <Bloodlust> okay, so it costs 12 gold per shot you make?
18:58:42 <Bloodlust> dang, that can get expensive lol
18:59:29 <Bloodlust> I guess you could do rapid shot with a double-musket or double hackbutt
18:59:29 <Avatar> you use less shots than you'd think
18:59:37 <Bloodlust> as that has two barrels
18:59:54 <Avatar> is double hackbutt the siege weapon
18:59:59 <Avatar> I think that's the one that got banned
19:01:10 <Bloodlust> Double Hackbut
19:01:35 <Bloodlust> This double-length rifle uses a pair of trunnions to mount its barrel into a swiveling mechanism fastened to the top of a lightweight, two-wheeled carriage. It takes a full-round action to set up the carriage. The carriage has a hind leg, allowing the wielder to wheel the device about and immediately prop it for stability during combat. Unlike other two-hande
19:02:26 <Avatar> yeah, banned
19:02:38 <Avatar> I can't remember why
19:02:56 <Avatar> something about it attracted a lot of munchkins
19:03:07 <Brunius> >synthesist
19:03:18 <Avatar> the synthesist got banned
19:04:23 <Bloodlust> I guess I just don't see how they scae
19:04:25 <Bloodlust> *scale
19:05:15 <Bloodlust> I mean with my ranger, I'm putting out 4 arrows at level 6 doing d8+8 each
19:05:44 <Avatar> see how what scales
19:05:52 <Bloodlust> the gunslinger seems to still be doing d12+5 (if using deadly aim like I was for the ranger)
19:06:07 <Avatar> your arrows hit armour
19:06:16 <Avatar> the damage goes up with uh
19:06:24 <Avatar> gun trianing
19:06:25 <Avatar> training*
19:06:28 <mortician> its very important the charges are clear minded, even at rest.....before the four we were blessed by our work of art...ancient warriors intruding into the tapped in mark........stereotype synthesis electrical proof
19:06:31 <Bloodlust> oh hang on,you get to include yoru dex to damage also
19:06:35 <Avatar> you add your dex to damage at level 5
19:06:56 <Brunius> sup mortician
19:06:57 <mortician> when ac is written backwards
19:07:02 <mortician> lol
19:07:07 <Bloodlust> so possibly d12+9
19:13:21 <Avatar> I use deadly aim and have a +1 gun
19:13:34 <Avatar> a +1 holy gun
19:13:52 <Avatar> so that becomes something like d12+13
19:13:58 <Avatar> +2d6
19:14:10 <Avatar> for each of the 3 shots I fire
19:14:13 <Avatar> vs touch AC
19:18:10 <mortician> particle beam
19:19:47 <Avatar> then I made the mistake of taking improved critical and critical focus
19:20:05 <Avatar> now I am trying to avoid doing damage to stop ending encounters too quickly
19:20:41 <Brunius> haha why
19:21:28 <Avatar> I've made what are supposed to be epic encounters into one hit anticlimatic kills
19:21:36 <Avatar> ruins scenarios
19:21:39 <mortician> the worst thing is when you no longer can control it
19:22:55 <Bloodlust> how are you firing off three shots?
19:23:17 <Bloodlust> you need to reload each time
19:23:26 <Brunius> Free action, though
19:23:44 <mortician> nah spawn
19:23:59 <Bloodlust> okay, I need to work this out
19:24:07 <Bloodlust> starts as a full round
19:24:15 <Bloodlust> rapid reload makes it a standard action
19:24:28 <mortician> only emphasis makes it happen
19:24:28 <Bloodlust> alchemical cartridges makes it a move action
19:24:37 <Bloodlust> fast musket makes it a what?
19:24:52 <Avatar> free action
19:25:01 <mortician> makes me the most power person in the future
19:25:03 <Brunius> Wasn't there some talk of it going to a swift
19:25:10 <Avatar> confusion
19:25:14 <Avatar> it's a free action
19:25:16 <Bloodlust> that's what I thought
19:25:19 <Bloodlust> swift
19:25:24 <Avatar> swift actions are free actions you can only do once
19:25:31 <Bloodlust> okay
19:25:47 <Avatar> there's something definitive somewhere, I can't remember where, but it's move to free
19:25:47 <Bloodlust> so then by third level, you can be doing things like rapid shot with a musket?
19:25:55 <mortician> coming in line is a battery crime
19:26:13 <Avatar> yeah
19:26:26 <Bloodlust> a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action - alchemical cartirdges
19:26:35 <Avatar> right
19:26:41 <Avatar> and by level 6, your BAB is +6/+1
19:26:47 <Bloodlust> just a pity you can't get many shot lol
19:26:48 <Avatar> so with rapid shot, it's more
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19:27:02 <Avatar> mort are you okay
19:28:31 <Avatar> I kind of want winged boots
19:28:48 <Avatar> fly 3/day is pretty sweet
19:29:19 <Avatar> already got boots of springing and striding though
19:29:48 <Bloodlust> cat boots are great
19:29:55 <Bloodlust> minimum falling damage
19:30:03 <Bloodlust> ooh you set off the pit trap and take 12d6 damage
19:30:16 <Bloodlust> ah yep, 12Hp damage - oh, and I land on my feet :)
19:30:27 <Bloodlust> 1k gold
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19:34:51 <Bloodlust> how would you do a stat allocation for a musket man?
19:34:54 <Avatar> mort's in australia
19:35:04 <Bloodlust> dex is obviously prime, do you use grit much?
19:35:18 <Avatar> I took extra grit at 1st level and never used it
19:35:38 <Avatar> but since I hit the higher levels and I'm doing 3 attacks a round with a non-reliable'd musket, I misfire a lot, and use quick clear a lot
19:35:55 <Bloodlust> I thought as a musket master you never misfire
19:36:03 <Avatar> dreamland
19:36:39 <Avatar> alchemical catridges increase your misfire chance by 1
19:36:45 <Avatar> so instead of 1-2, it's 1-3
19:36:59 <Bloodlust> ah okay
19:38:07 <Bloodlust> what do you think of the gun tank?
19:39:17 <Bloodlust> can they be run together?
19:40:31 <Avatar> no idea about gun tank, I've never heard of anyone who uses it
19:41:41 <Brunius> BE A TRENDSETTER
19:44:12 <Bloodlust> I can't see why they couldn't be run together
19:44:23 <Bloodlust> are gunslingers feat needy?
19:55:45 <Avatar> they get bonus feats every 4 levels
19:57:17 <Bloodlust> gun tanks don't
19:57:33 <Bloodlust> hence why I was asking if they were feat needy
19:57:34 <Avatar> maybe that's why nobody plays them
19:57:43 <Avatar> oh right
19:57:50 <Avatar> well sort of
19:58:01 <Avatar> they need rapid shot, and probably but not definitely precise shot
19:58:05 <Bloodlust> was thinking about a dude in plate mail with a tower shield and a pepperbox lol
19:58:08 <Avatar> and deadly aim for the damage is pretty important
19:58:20 <Avatar> you could deal without it, but it'd be uncomfortable
20:48:28 <Falang> Uhm, who is Ziria? Never seen s/he speak. Another bot?
21:03:16 Bloodlust has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
21:04:58 <Brunius> Dec 17 09:03:00 <Ziria>
21:05:07 <Brunius> Dec 25 20:52:51 <Ziria>
21:05:22 <Brunius> Those are the only instances of him/her talking I have in my logs
21:05:33 <Falang> and you don't think that's kinda creepy?
21:05:44 <Brunius> Plenty of people just idle here
21:05:45 <Falang> someone sitting here for 6 months not speaking? :)
21:05:58 <Brunius> IRC is easy to idle in
21:06:13 <Falang> I know, I used to do it quite a bit myself, but not for 6 months
21:06:25 <Falang> weird.
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21:55:22 Steven ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
21:55:47 <Steven> hey guys.
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