#d&d - 2012-01-07 - AustNet Archive Project

// #d&d — 2012-01-07

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« 2012-01-06 2012-01-08 »
08:53 <Mekkis> hmm
23:51 <Mekkis> go on
24:07 <Mekkis> play the deaf gnomish heavens oracle
32:37 <Avatar> I will likely make an oracle now that I understand more about it
32:57 <Mekkis> the deaf gnomish heavens oracle?
32:58 <Avatar> why is a gnomish heaven's oracle good
33:36 <Mekkis> if you don't play a deaf one, I'm not that fussed
33:56 <Mekkis> but the reason the heaven's oracle is good is that Colour Spray remains effective
33:57 <Avatar> well why is it good
34:11 <Avatar> do oracles get colour spray
34:20 <Mekkis> heavens oracles do
34:38 <Mekkis> and they subtract their charisma modifier from the foe's effective level
34:43 <Avatar> I'll have a look at it
34:50 <Avatar> still need to get this summoner together first
34:52 <Mekkis> just don't play a deaf one
34:53 <Mekkis> please
35:01 <Avatar> least fun I've ever had creating a character
35:12 <Mekkis> what sort of summoner?
35:23 <Avatar> one that summons stuff
35:26 <Mekkis> OH
35:28 <Mekkis> that type
35:31 <Avatar> ya
35:36 <Mekkis> ugh
35:43 <Mekkis> sounds like a lot of work
35:45 <Avatar> like the class
35:53 <Mekkis> nope
36:11 <Mekkis> the type that actually uses the Summon Monster ability?
36:30 <Avatar> yeah
37:27 <Mekkis> sounds annoying
37:38 <Avatar> it does doesn't it! I thought it was just me
38:12 <Mekkis> a player in my group plays one
38:41 <Avatar> well what's the alternative
38:47 <Avatar> I don't want to run a synthesist
39:09 <Mekkis> there are two
39:15 <Mekkis> the type that rides the eidolon
39:24 <Mekkis> and the type that utilises the eidolon
39:31 <Avatar> I'd consider both of those
39:34 <Avatar> I will have a closer look later
39:40 <Avatar> I am sort of trying to prepare tomorrow's game
39:44 <Mekkis> (you can't use the Summon Monster Ability when the eidolon is there)
39:52 <Mekkis> Frostfur?
39:53 <Avatar> yeah I did notice that
39:56 <Avatar> yeah
40:07 <Avatar> should I have prepped another scenario this week instead
40:13 <Mekkis> not really
40:17 <Mekkis> I'll sleep in
40:20 <Mekkis> :)
40:29 <Avatar> if you want me to, let me know so I can consider doing it
40:36 <Avatar> (now is a bit ltae)
40:36 <Mekkis> don't worry
40:38 <Avatar> late*)
41:19 <Mekkis> most characters get to modify their character every level
41:33 <Mekkis> wizards get to modify their character every day
42:01 <Mekkis> summoners who rely on their eidolons get to REBUILD their character every level
42:25 <Avatar> a week ago I wouldn't have had a clue what you just said
42:29 <Mekkis> summoner who rely on summoning effectively rebuild their character every round
51:12 <Avatar> I don't know that I'd be that efficient
51:19 <Avatar> it's really just to playtest the class anyway though
51:23 <Mekkis> efficient?
51:31 <Avatar> yeah I'd fuck it up
51:34 <Mekkis> if you're playing a summoner, you can rebuild every level :)
51:42 <Avatar> yeah but that takes work
52:07 <Mekkis> have you decided on race yet?
52:17 <Avatar> just human by default
52:28 <Mekkis> (generally I'd recommend either half-elf, halfling or gnome)
52:29 <Avatar> not locked in
52:34 <Avatar> why
52:45 <Avatar> I keep forgetting Mellon is an elf
53:09 <Mekkis> halfling/gnome have charisma bonus, as well as size bonuses to AC, and can ride the eidolon if you want. They also annoy John.
53:30 <Avatar> why do you like annoying john
53:35 <Mekkis> half-elf can put favoured class bonuses into the eidolon's evolution pool, which is never a bad thing
53:41 <Avatar> to get a reaction out of him
53:47 <Mekkis> not really
54:01 <Avatar> er
54:05 <Mekkis> mainly because I want to prove the superiority of short characters, gnomes in particular
54:05 <Avatar> how can half-elf do that
54:15 <Mekkis> it's a favoured class option in the APG
57:24 <Mekkis> put a 16 to an 18 in charisma, that's about it
57:58 <Avatar> man how have I never noticed favoured class options before
58:23 <Mekkis> since the eidolon's doing most of the fighting, the summoner generally has quite a few actions...
59:14 <Mekkis> (one fun thing to do with half-elf is to take the racial replacement of Skill Focus for Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip), and use the Aid Another action extensively
04:04 <Avatar> why is whip good again
09:54 <Mekkis> because you can aid from 15' away
17:15 Sachiru ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
18:32 <Avatar> don't know if that's worth a feat
21:18 Sachiru has quit (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
21:59 Sachiru ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
22:55 <Avatar> human's favoured class option for a rogue is 1/6 of a rogue talent? am I reading that right?
23:07 <Avatar> 6 levels of dedicating it to a single rogue talent?
24:17 <Avatar> same with half-elf and summoner, 1/4  ?
07:47 Avatar- ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
19:55 Sachiru has quit (Quit: Shutting Down )
25:35 <Ballig> zzz
31:57 Topic for #d&d is: PFS: Sat 10am (new game/Avatar) | CoTE: Sun Jan 8th 10am || AEDT (UTC+11:00) | D&D and Pathfinder Online http://dnd.ballig.net/
31:57 Topic for #d&d set by Avatar at Tue Jan  3 23:33:05 2012
31:57 <***> Buffer Playback...
31:57 <***> Playback Complete.
36:50 Avatar ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
37:17 <Ballig> did you spend some social security on games while you were rebooting
37:37 <Ballig> there were jobs going at human services in melbourne that closed yesterday
37:38 <Avatar> centrelink hasn't made any goddamn payments yet 
37:39 <Ballig> did you apply
37:43 <Ballig> there was like 10 of them
37:45 <Avatar> they're all useless !
37:58 <Avatar> human services for what
38:11 <Ballig> department of human services, it's the department that centrelink is in
38:14 <Ballig> (the jobs were centrelink)
38:24 <Avatar> no I didn't apply
38:31 <Avatar> those probably required selection criteria
38:38 <Ballig> all government jobs do
38:44 <Avatar> I need to apply for 1 more job to meet my 10 job quota
38:50 <Ballig> but it paid like $55k
01:43 <Avatar> might not be a game this morning
01:45 <Avatar> where is everyone
02:17 <Ballig> dunno
02:23 <Ballig> I imagine we could scrounge people up within the next hour
04:26 <Avatar> thelen's likely sleeping
04:37 <Ballig> not sure if tristen is about
08:21 <Avatar> nothing from canine
23:32 <Avatar> zzz
25:01 <Avatar> Uptime: 7wks 5days 6hrs 6mins 21secs
25:11 <Ballig> uptime[4wks 6days 20hrs 5mins 43secs]
48:09 <Avatar> if nobody's going to show for another 3-4 hours I might go back to sleep
48:17 <Ballig> well, where is Mekkis
48:29 <Avatar> mekkis has already played this scenario
48:35 <Avatar> unless he has one to run
48:40 <Ballig> oh
48:44 <Ballig> so we need to get two people here?
48:48 <Avatar> yeah
50:16 <Avatar> where does the book tell you about how big a thorp or a hamlet or a village actually is
50:35 <Avatar> I can find only one mention of it, and it's only how much you can buy in each size of a village
51:10 <Ballig> the town description should tell you
53:00 <Avatar> yeah where is the town description
53:09 <Ballig> in the book that has the town
53:20 <Avatar> that's the point, it's not there
53:20 <Ballig> is it specific to a scenario, or is it a standard town
53:34 <Avatar> I don't know
53:40 <Ballig> what's the name of the town
53:46 <Avatar> I can't say, it's a spoiler
53:54 <Ballig> the name of the town is a spoiler?
53:55 <Avatar> mr town
53:58 <Ballig> then you can't expect any help
54:08 <Avatar> let's assume it's a standard town
54:15 <Ballig> then it's probably in the book Cities of Golarion
54:20 <Ballig> I could look it up, but it's a spoiler
54:53 <Avatar> that book doesn't exist
55:18 <Avatar> ok maybe it does
56:18 <Avatar> it's not coming up on pfsrd
59:03 <Ballig> still not to sure what to spend Bobbob's 2500 gold on
59:06 <Ballig> or if he should save it
02:40 <Avatar> just save it
02:55 <Ballig> for what
03:19 <Ballig> I guess with another scenario or so I can get a belt of giant's strength +2
03:23 <Avatar> something cool
03:44 <Avatar> I've got like 7000gp to spend and I might end up saving that
03:55 <Ballig> I already told you what to spend it on
05:01 <Ballig> a headband of wisdom is almost necessary
05:05 <Ballig> increases all your spells' DCs by 1
06:41 tristen ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
06:46 <Avatar> ah but I could get a +4 later
06:52 <tristen> mein gott
06:55 <tristen> i'm late
07:03 <Ballig> Avatar: in like 6 scenarios
07:05 <Avatar> no problem, we're still a player short after you
07:05 <Ballig> two more levels
07:07 <Ballig> not at all worth the wait
07:17 <Avatar> well that is for me to decide
07:29 <Ballig> don't blame me when your character is ineffective
07:38 <Ballig> because you're sitting on a mound of gold
07:43 <tristen> new characters?
07:48 <tristen> or can i use tasiv?
07:49 <Avatar> +1 won't make him much more effective
07:55 <Ballig> +1 will make him VERY more effective
07:59 <tristen> thelen ain't on skype atm
08:00 <Avatar> we need an extra player tristen
08:05 <Avatar> there's just us 3
08:08 <tristen> okee
08:22 <tristen> i'll just be hanging around
09:17 <Ballig> the annoying thing is that if I apply for a promotion in another department, I'll end up being paid the same as I get paid now
09:23 <Ballig> even though I'll be a level higher
09:26 <Ballig> (because my department pays more)
09:44 <Avatar> works you harder though doesn't it
09:49 <Avatar> your current dept
09:54 <Ballig> yeah
09:57 <Ballig> but it's all about the money
10:08 <Avatar> if we can wait till mekkis wakes up, he can run first steps 2
10:41 <Ballig> what character should I make for another round of first steps
11:17 <Avatar> summoner
11:30 <Ballig> maybe we should have a party of summoners
12:04 <Avatar> it's doing my head in
12:08 <Ballig> haha
14:32 <Ballig> I could play a gunslinger but I'm not sure how they're meant to increase damage after the first two or three levels
15:29 <Avatar> improved critical
15:43 <Ballig> seems unreliable
15:48 <Avatar> with free action reloading, I can use multiple attacks
15:52 <Avatar> with paper catridges
15:56 <Ballig> do you have rapid shot
16:01 <Avatar> no
16:09 <Ballig> so you can't actually do it until minimum level 6
16:18 <Avatar> yeah
16:25 <Avatar> well
16:29 <Avatar> minimum level 5 if I take rapid shot
17:11 <Ballig> rapid shot seems pretty good
17:17 <Ballig> the -2 to hit means less against touch AC
17:42 <Avatar> yeah
18:52 <Ballig> I'd have probably gotten rapid shot instead of deadly aim
19:01 <Ballig> or instead of extra grit
19:03 <Ballig> maybe I should do that
19:10 <Ballig> human gunslinger with point blank shot and rapid shot
28:04 <Avatar> I expected to use a lot more grit than I have been using
28:11 <Ballig> yeah
28:12 <Avatar> especially now that pistol whip is far more useless than I thought it was
28:20 <Ballig> you have difficulty predicting how something will work in practice :p
28:34 <Avatar> well I thought I would misfire more often as well
28:58 <Ballig> I'm considering doing a fighter/sorcerer
29:05 <Ballig> but sorcerers getting spells a level late is a bit of a bitch
29:17 <Avatar> your point buy would suck a bit
29:46 <Avatar> I might abandon the summoner
29:48 <Avatar> it is too much work
29:48 <Ballig> strength, charisma, dexterity, constitution
30:12 <Avatar> arcane spell failure?
30:46 <Ballig> you would take arcane armour training
31:12 <Ballig> although you need 3 levels of caster first
31:20 <Ballig> so maybe start with three levels of sorcerer then go into fighter
31:56 <Ballig> seems like too much planning for me
32:34 <Avatar> man
32:38 <Avatar> try rolling up a summoner
32:43 <Ballig> ha
35:24 <Ballig> maybe magus is a better idea for a fighter/caster
35:39 <Ballig> automatically ignores spell failure chance on light armour
35:47 <Avatar> yeah
36:09 <Avatar> I didn't really like magus when I had a glance over it
36:19 <Ballig> why's that
36:26 <Avatar> don't remember
36:38 <Avatar> a guy at conquest had a magus
36:43 <Avatar> in our party
37:07 <Avatar> felt a bit like worst of both worlds I think
39:47 <Ballig> mm
40:16 <Ballig> they can magick up their weapon
40:25 <Ballig> a minute each time, equal to 1/2 level + int mod
40:41 <Ballig> so a level 1 magus with an intelligence of +3 could make their weapon a +1 weapon for four encounters a day
40:52 <Ballig> and it stacks with the enhancement bonus already on their weapon
42:06 <Ballig> I guess your biggest issue is going to be casting spells while in melee
52:00 <Ballig> Avatar: wand mastery is pretty good for magus. if you choose that as your arcana, you add your intelligence modifier to the DC from a wand instead of the minimum required intelligence
54:43 <Ballig> but their spell progression is worse than sorcerer
00:34 <Avatar> serpentine eidolon seems decent
00:55 <Avatar> just 20ft movement is a problem
06:13 <Ballig> I think the magus spell progression might be a dealbreaker
08:48 <Avatar> apparently you can ride a serpentine eidolon
09:05 <Ballig> ha
09:39 <Avatar> mmm, at 8th level though
10:05 <Avatar> a lot of the evolutions have level requirements and there's no easy way to get an overview of them
16:56 <Avatar> I don't think canine's going to show tomorrow
18:24 <Ballig> did you email him
19:20 <Avatar> left him a message on g+
20:59 <Ballig> you should take a level of wizard on Buck
21:03 <Ballig> with the Spellslinger archetype
24:53 <Avatar> never heard of it
27:21 <Ballig> lets you cast spells through a gun
33:20 <Avatar> there's 50 evolutions, most of them have requirements, and no table to clarify it
33:29 <Ballig> ha
33:38 <Avatar> I am making one
34:42 <Ballig> make a synthesist with the skilled evolution
35:30 <Avatar> haha
35:38 <Avatar> and maybe I'll put it in diplomacy
35:47 <Ballig> flawless
55:01 <Ballig> I still like my feral alchemist idea that I never got to play for more than two sessions
01:38 <Avatar> yeah I liked my witch idea
01:46 <Avatar> I will make Snickers a PFS character soon
02:07 <Avatar> the only reason I am delaying is because I already have Mellon and they are too similar
02:47 <Avatar> Snickers' backstory suits Andoran, but I'm not going bloody Andoran again
02:54 <Ballig> why not
03:01 <Avatar> Andoran sux
03:12 <Ballig> why
03:20 <Avatar> just duz
03:48 <Ballig> why duz it
03:54 <Avatar> just duz
03:58 <Ballig> like why
04:47 <Avatar> just duz 
05:00 <Ballig> y
05:09 <Avatar> y?
05:12 <Ballig> y
05:16 <Avatar> cuz it duz
05:22 <Ballig> cuz y
05:35 <Avatar> come at me bro
05:51 <Ballig> my workmate says that in an albanian accent
05:58 <Avatar> haha
06:07 <Ballig> (because she's albanian)
09:24 <Avatar> we can still play later tonight if brunius shows up
09:34 <Ballig> or thelen
09:36 <Ballig> that joker
09:47 <Ballig> I'm happy to run first steps 1 or something
15:30 <Avatar> better to leave first steps until we have new players
15:42 <Avatar> except first steps 2, which none of us have played
15:47 <Avatar> except mekkis and brunius
15:47 <Ballig> what do you mean by "leave" it
15:58 <Avatar> run a proper scenario instead that we haven't played
17:07 <Avatar> okay, summoner evolution table is finished
17:40 <Avatar> should I upload it to the site
18:05 <Ballig> depends how much it sucks
18:37 <Avatar> it only lists restrictions for each evolution
18:40 <Avatar> no summaries
21:20 <Avatar> oh, it only accepts txt files
26:05 <Ballig> what did you try to upload
27:46 <Avatar> it's an excel file
27:56 <Ballig> did you really think that it would translate an excel file
28:10 <Avatar> I thought it would put it there as a download link
28:32 <Avatar> I will just dropbox it I guess
28:58 <Ballig> you can add it as a download link to an article or character sheet
29:27 <Avatar> not a great way to do it
29:32 <Avatar> I will link to it on g+
29:37 <Ballig> better than just randomly placing links all over the place
31:54 <Avatar> I should've done this in google docs
31:56 <Avatar> wonder if I can translate it
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36:02 <Ballig> look what the cat dragged in
36:41 <Avatar> Jaggedsoul has a good excuse
39:35 <Jaggedsoul> sup
39:55 <Avatar> man, ultimate magic has even more evolutions that I missed
42:34 <Avatar> and has some prebuilt eidolons !
52:15 <Ballig> Stranger: you're quite good at trolling. you have my respect, sir
58:12 <Mekkis> good afternoon
58:22 <Avatar> yo
59:03 <Mekkis> how did frostfur go?
59:07 <Mekkis> how many died?
59:16 <Ballig> everyone
59:45 <Mekkis> congrats, Avatar, on your first TPK
59:49 <Avatar> everyone who played
00:38 <Mekkis> naturally
11:03 <Avatar> mekkis you might be able to run first steps 2 tonight if you're keen
11:11 <Avatar> tonight/this afternoon
41:03 <Avatar> mmm?
42:13 <Mekkis> tonight, perhaps
42:20 <Mekkis> rather unlikely though...
17:29 <Avatar> zzz
56:26 <Ballig> zzz
40:41 <tristen> zzz snort splutter zzz
42:41 <Avatar> I'm going out soon
42:55 <Thelen> hai everybody
43:03 <Ballig> where are you going out to
45:30 <Avatar> places
45:35 <Avatar> nice timing thelen
46:37 <Ballig> what places
48:12 <Avatar> happy places
48:25 <Ballig> isn't this a happy place
48:54 <Avatar> yeah but I have been here all day
49:02 <Ballig> so you're very happy
49:04 <Avatar> well
49:07 <Avatar> except for that nap I took
49:14 <Ballig> that nap I took was pretty amazing
49:14 <Avatar> I wasn't here for that
49:19 <Avatar> yeah napping was better than being here
49:25 <Ballig> my bedroom is my happy place
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02:06 <Ballig> !throw 1d6
02:07 <diebot> Ballig, 1d6: [1d6=1] 1
02:30 <Ballig> !throw 2d10
02:30 <diebot> Ballig, 2d10: [2d10=7,1] 8
07:05 <Avatar> finally finished an eidolon
07:11 <Ballig> haha
07:13 <Ballig> did you use a pre-built one
07:16 <Avatar> well, the hard part anyway
07:17 <Avatar> not really finished
07:32 <Avatar> just have to give it a feat, some skills, and some cleanup
07:46 <Avatar> I could just whatever that away
08:10 <Avatar> I'd upload it but I don't have a name for the summoner yet
08:20 <Ballig> Suhmuhnuh
08:41 <Avatar> sounds too similar to Samsuhn
08:45 <Ballig> haha
08:54 <Ballig> Sarmarnar
09:15 <Avatar> Nitemeer
09:18 <Ballig> haha
09:22 <Ballig> Daymare
09:42 <Ballig> Nightstallion
10:39 <Avatar> there's actually a prebuilt eidolon called nightmare
10:45 <Avatar> mine is a serpent, maybe I will just call him Snake
10:53 <Ballig> well
10:54 <Avatar> that'll do
10:58 <Ballig> that's because "nightmare" is a kind of creature
11:02 <Ballig> it's a horse with flames on its feet and stuff
11:03 <Ballig> a demonic horse
11:13 <Avatar> yeah I know
11:17 <Avatar> snake is a kind of creature also
11:20 <Ballig> pretty sure that's what Mekkis' character's eidolon is
11:30 <Ballig> yeah it's not really /named/ nightmare
11:32 <Ballig> it is a nightmare
12:26 <Avatar> http://dnd.ballig.net/viewchar.php5?char=337
12:37 <Ballig> haha
12:39 <Ballig> snake
13:00 <Avatar> I'll change the features later
13:02 <Avatar> 'scaly skin'
13:04 <Ballig> does augment summoning work on a summoner's summons
13:15 <Avatar> yeah I think so
13:21 <Avatar> master summoner gets it for free
13:32 <Ballig> pretty incredible
17:48 <Ballig> my level 1 alchemist almost does as much damage as my level 5 cavalier
21:04 <Avatar> haha
21:32 <Ballig> assuming no charge, ofc
21:48 <Avatar> I think I'm going lantern lodge
22:00 <Ballig> why
24:44 <Avatar> least favourite of the new factions
25:10 <Avatar> except maybe silver crusade, but I might make a paladin or something that is useful for it
25:15 <Ballig> ha
25:20 <Ballig> so why are you choosing your least favourite
25:36 <Avatar> I don't really plan on playing this character
29:12 <Ballig> my alchemist has 18 strength
29:37 <Avatar> what stats does he need
29:52 <Avatar> dex ?
30:01 <Ballig> depends how you're playing it
30:09 <Ballig> the standard alchemist would use int and dex
30:20 <Ballig> I'm using str and int
32:31 Avatar- ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
20:29 <Ballig> I need 3 more skills
20:53 <Ballig> remaining class skills: appraise, fly, heal, knowledge (arcana), knowledge (nature), sleight of hand, survival
26:53 <Mekkis> any word from Canine?
29:01 <Ballig> Avatar said he got no response on g+, I've just emailed him now
29:11 <Mekkis> hmmm
31:36 <Ballig> maybe we should call him
59:27 <Avatar-> still no response
06:10 <Ballig> maybe my alchemist should take blind-fight and then play darkest vengeance
09:26 Jaggedsoul ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
16:09 <Avatar-> haha yeah
16:13 <Avatar-> I'll dm it
17:32 <Ballig> I'm considering combat reflexes + stand still
17:59 <Ballig> could be useful when my alchemist is enlarged and has a natural reach of 10 feet
31:20 Brunius ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
31:24 <Ballig> sup broo
32:16 <Brunius> jerk
32:45 <Ballig> your the jerk
36:14 Brunius has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
38:49 <Avatar-> broo
39:16 <Ballig> he's gone
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00:11 <Jaggedsoul> Avatar what book contains the Magus class?
00:16 <Ballig> ultimate magic
00:25 <Jaggedsoul> thanks
00:56 <Ballig> it's not a terrible class, but the spell progression sucks
03:44 <Jaggedsoul> any interesting archetype for magus, Ballig?
03:53 <Ballig> I didn't look that closely at them
04:08 <Jaggedsoul> saw the Blackblade
04:10 <Ballig> the spell progression and constant AOOs were a bit of a dealbreaker for me
04:25 <Jaggedsoul> oh
04:45 <Jaggedsoul> AOO during melee combat?
05:01 <Ballig> yeah they still attract AOOs if they cast in melee
05:18 <Ballig> they get this ability that lets them attack with a melee weapon and cast a spell in the same round, but I don't see you using that without attracting AOOs
05:39 Spaceshot_tm2 ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
06:21 <Ballig> and I turned around, four dead bicyclists - all my fault! hahaha
11:40 <Avatar-> haha!
15:50 <Jaggedsoul> hmmm spell combat functions much like two-weapon fighting
16:01 <Ballig> yeah but it's a spell instead of another weapon
17:08 snypt ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
17:22 <snypt> ello
17:31 <Ballig> emmo
17:31 <Jaggedsoul> sup snypt
17:43 <snypt> not alot mate
17:45 <snypt> hows it?
18:14 <snypt> i got this fancy new tablet computer today
18:22 <snypt> nowi gotta figure how to use it
18:39 <Ballig> is it a crapple
19:10 <snypt> nah
19:19 <snypt> it the samsung galaxy tab
19:22 <snypt> the 10.1
19:24 <Ballig> ahh cool
19:26 <Ballig> is it awesome
19:33 <snypt> yeah it is pretty awesome
19:38 <Ballig> if I was going to get a tablet it'd be that or the kindle fire
19:49 <snypt> yeah iw as looking the the kindle fire too
20:01 <snypt> but this thing seems to be a bit better for performance
20:03 <Ballig> do they sell it outside of the US yet
20:11 <snypt> and i want to use it to vnc into my desktop from work
20:14 <Ballig> what OS does the Fire use
20:20 <Ballig> I think the galaxy using android would be the topper
21:08 <snypt> fire uses android too
21:12 <Ballig> ahh okay
21:13 <snypt> but an older version
21:19 <snypt> and it is like a custom version
21:37 <Spaceshot_tm2> which android? ice-cream sandwich?
21:46 <Spaceshot_tm2> for galaxy this is
21:49 <snypt> gingerbread
22:31 <snypt> oh the galaxy oh the galaxy uses honeycomb
22:41 <snypt> 3.1 i belive
22:55 <snypt> but u can upgrade to 3.2
23:00 <Spaceshot_tm2> that's odd, the latest samsung phone out (not the note) supposedly has ice-cream sandwich aka 4.0
23:04 <snypt> i only got it today so i havnt done anything to it yet
23:28 <snypt> im sure they will release a version for it eventually
23:43 <Spaceshot_tm2> you'd think so
23:55 <Spaceshot_tm2> able to play any iphone/ipad only games?
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24:06 <Ballig> if they've been ported
24:07 <Spaceshot_tm2> because SUPPOSEDLY, samsung stole ipad parts :P
24:14 <Spaceshot_tm2> for the galaxy tab
24:16 <Ballig> it's not about the ahrdware
24:18 <Ballig> hardware
24:20 <Ballig> it's about the OS
24:59 <snypt> yeah they would have to be ports or and emulator
25:11 <Spaceshot_tm2> you could get it cracked
25:34 <Spaceshot_tm2> and iphone/ipad games use specific hardware a lot
49:47 <Mekkis> Ballig, anything from Canine?
49:56 <Ballig> nope
50:24 <Ballig> but I only emailed him 2 hours ago
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54:14 <Mekkis> Ballig, any chance that Ruben could continue SoTo?
54:27 <Ballig> by himself?
54:35 <Mekkis> yep
54:43 <Mekkis> unless other characters are willing to be introduced
54:56 <Ballig> do you think he can solo it
55:04 <Mekkis> possibly
55:11 <Mekkis> depending on what "it" turns out to be
55:26 <Mekkis> at the moment, he's pretty much soloing it
57:33 <Ballig> I should write it as a pathfinder campaign
58:38 <Mekkis> one disadvantage of PFS that seems to be making itself rather clear is that the players and DM don't have the opportunity to coordinate long-term character goals and concepts
59:03 <Ballig> necessary drawback to organised play
59:07 <Mekkis> indeed
59:29 <Ballig> can certainly make you yearn for something with a more involved story arc
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00:52 <Mekkis> damn
00:56 <Mekkis> Avatar's on both sides
01:11 <Ballig> ha
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05:23 <Ballig> haha
05:32 <Mekkis> yeah
05:51 <Ballig> reading a forum post about vestigial arm on alchemists
05:51 <Ballig> Sean K Reynolds (Developer) Jul 2, 2011, 05:35 AM
05:51 <Ballig> The intent is that you have an extra arm for holding stuff, not to turn you into a double-greatsword-wielding maniac.
06:09 <Mekkis> I'm wondering if Nightmare should take levels of Paladin
06:16 <Spaceshot_tm2> RAI is different to RAW
06:31 <Ballig> a lot of people will take the word of a developer into rules as intended
06:39 <Mekkis> I'm sorry, but I can't take SKR seriously
07:33 <Spaceshot_tm2> RAW is allowed
07:44 <Ballig> sorry, it's always RAI
07:58 <Ballig> Mekkis: anyone who has an acronym for a name must be taken seriously
08:11 <Spaceshot_tm2> nope, otherwise nightmare wouldn't be around
08:14 <Mekkis> this is another issue with organised play
08:23 <Spaceshot_tm2> I don't believe RAI sythesist summoner would be allowed skilled
08:37 <Ballig> Spaceshot_tm2: it's /always/ RAI. if you make a character that will be struck down by RAI and you try to say "but it's RAW!", you will find yourself excluded from many tables in PFS
09:01 <Spaceshot_tm2> again, I don't believe nightmare is RAI
09:05 <Ballig> because in the end, it comes down to how each individual GM interprets the rules
09:33 <Spaceshot_tm2> again, I don't believe nightmare is RAI
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09:53 <Ballig> what is your definition of a character NOT being rules as interpreted?
09:53 <Jaggedsoul> what's RAI and RAW?
10:00 <Ballig> Jaggedsoul: rules as interpreted, rules as written
10:07 <Jaggedsoul> ok
10:12 <Mekkis> an example: Mytiazair commissioned a large, hollow metal block, total volume 14 cubic feet, in the shape of 5'x5'x10'
10:33 <Spaceshot_tm2> I though RAI was rules as intended
10:37 <Ballig> no
10:48 <Mekkis> in some sessions, where the DM allows it, he'll cast /shrink object/ on it an carry it with him
10:49 <Ballig> how a rule was intended can enter into how it's interpreted
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12:38 <Spaceshot_tm2> can, doesn't always
12:46 <Ballig> my points stand
13:06 <Spaceshot_tm2> just because a developer made a flaw with his rules doesn't mean his intention becomes the interpretation
13:07 <Ballig> if you rely on your interpretation, and there is a post from a developer saying you interpret it in contradiction to its intention, don't expect to play it at every table
13:33 <Spaceshot_tm2> it explicitly says it can be used with TWF
13:38 <Ballig> I've said from the start that the rules don't accommodate your interpretation, that it's too ambiguous right now
13:55 <Ballig> I would rule against you on the ambiguity given the intention of the rule as stated by a developer
14:17 <Spaceshot_tm2> the person who created magic of faerun
14:17 <Mekkis> Ballig, Sean K Reynolds wrote Magic of Faerun...
14:45 <Ballig> never read it
15:06 <Mekkis> it's a book of choice I used in creating Nameless One
15:45 <Ballig> he's still a designer of Ultimate Magic
15:53 <Mekkis> yeah
15:54 <Mekkis> and?
15:55 <Ballig> even if you don't like one of the books he created
16:10 <Ballig> if he says that a rule was intended some way, and he was a designer of the book with that rule, it carries weight
16:13 <Ballig> no matter what you think of his work
16:49 <Mekkis> I've already stated that I don't think that anything written in the boards should be taken as gospel
16:57 <Spaceshot_tm2> well then why does it explicitly say in the entry of Vestigial arm that you may use it with TWF
17:40 <Ballig> TWF != T-2H-WF, it's an oversight imo
18:01 <Ballig> I'm more than happy to take the word of a designer of that book into consideration if I GM a character who uses it
18:43 <Spaceshot_tm2> even from devs?
19:33 <Avatar> okay I'm home!
19:34 <Avatar> let's play
19:36 <Ballig> Mekkis just wants to keep arguing his character points even when posts on the board, whether from designer or venture captain or developer, have said something against it :p
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19:50 <Mekkis> no, that's not the reason
20:00 <Ballig> the thing about PFS, though, is that it comes down to the GM's interpretation
20:07 <Ballig> and even though something on the board isn't an official ruling
20:08 <Avatar> I've got more tea now so I don't have to go again for a while
20:14 <Ballig> I think GMs are expected to take that kind of thing into consideration
25:47 <Avatar> Ballig: where is SKR's post
27:02 <Ballig> http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4183?Alchemist-Vestigial-Arm-discovery-question#40
27:48 <Ballig> it's a badly written discovery (and so is "tentacles"), and he doesn't make any attempt at clarifying or ruling in any way
27:58 <Ballig> but he does state clearly what the /intent/ was
28:09 <Mekkis> Ballig, that particular post I'd take with a heap of salt
28:20 <Ballig> think you'd have to say why, man
28:23 <Ballig> and not "because he wrote magic of faerun"
28:29 <Mekkis> SKR's gone on record on saying that monks are Supposed to be Weak
28:35 <Ballig> he's a designer of the book in question, and has stated what the intent was (and wasn't)
29:08 <Ballig> not sure how that's relevant
29:57 <Ballig> if there was argument over something specific about monk, and he said that the intent was that a specific class feature wasn't meant to do something because monks are supposed to be weak, that could be relevant
30:04 <Ballig> but wouldn't make it carry any less weight
31:01 <Spaceshot_tm2> though he is saying that alchemists aren't meant to have an interesting ability and instead be unseen servant for a class ability/feat
31:14 <Avatar> how can you take that as a heap of salt mekkis
31:25 <Ballig> Avatar: because Sean K Reynolds wrote Magic of Faerun
31:26 <Ballig> isn't it obvious
31:58 <Avatar> I was okay with the two-handed two weapon fighting with -4,-4 before, but if the developer who created it is saying that wasn't intended
32:00 <Ballig> Spaceshot_tm2: so you say that before Ultimate Magic was released, alchemists were useless and were just an unseen servant for a class ability/feat?
32:18 <Avatar> how can you say oh it's meant to be allowed
33:11 <Ballig> the arm is /intended/ to be an assistant - e.g., letting you hold a potion while you dual-wield with your regular arms, or hold a potion while you throw a bomb
33:14 <Ballig> the description actually says that
33:25 <Spaceshot_tm2> ballig; before UM alchemists were equivalent to a bard, but instead of songs he had quasi rage and bombs
33:37 <Ballig> he continues to say later in the thread that it wasn't even intended to allow people to wield a shield with the third arm while dual wielding weapons with the other two
34:15 <Spaceshot_tm2> ballig: then why would he, the creator/writer of the book, say that even though the arms don't give bonus attacks, they can be used to help TWF?
34:24 <Avatar> it'd be nice if he was crystal clear on what the rule really should say, but the intention is clear
34:39 <Ballig> it's badly written
34:44 <Spaceshot_tm2> BY HIM
34:48 <Ballig> okay?
34:48 <Mekkis> what's badly written
34:55 <Ballig> the vestigial arm discovery
35:00 <Mekkis> the forum post, or the rule?
35:11 <Ballig> the forum post is quite clear, although could be more helpful
35:11 <Spaceshot_tm2> in UM
35:16 <Ballig> the vestigial arm description in ultimate magic is badly written
35:47 <Spaceshot_tm2> BY HIM
35:55 <Mekkis> ummm
35:58 <Spaceshot_tm2> by the person who is trying to get the intention across
36:09 <Ballig> it doesn't matter whether he wrote the description
36:11 <Mekkis> remember that anything that's put in the book HAS gone through an editor
36:18 <Spaceshot_tm2> if he can't write it in the first place, and it's not like it's the first time he's written anything for dnd
36:22 <Ballig> doesn't mean it isn't badly written, Mekkis
36:29 <Mekkis> (one reason why forum posts are rather unreliable)
36:33 <Ballig> Spaceshot_tm2: very tenuous argument
36:46 <Ballig> Mekkis: it's a post about the /intention/ of the rule
36:54 <Ballig> there's nothing unreliable about what the designers INTENDED
37:01 <Spaceshot_tm2> so is a forum post about his intention, but not about any clarification about the actual rules involved
37:13 <Ballig> right, he doesn't clarify anything, and probably could have
37:23 <Ballig> just keep in mind that GMs are going to rule against you based on the intention of the rules
37:28 <Ballig> I know I would
37:28 <Spaceshot_tm2> and if it were to be less salty, she would of
37:38 <Spaceshot_tm2> he*
38:30 <Ballig> if I had to hazard a guess why the description mentions using two-weapon fighting, I would say it's so that you don't freak out about whether you are dual wielding with your original arms or your vestigial arm
38:39 <Spaceshot_tm2> also, the editors aren't always there to just fix spelling mistakes and gramma issues
38:40 <Ballig> and isn't necessarily meant to say that you can add a third weapon to your attacks
38:48 <Spaceshot_tm2> they can also edit the rules
38:50 <Mekkis> The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting).
38:52 <Mekkis> this
38:52 <Ballig> but that's speculation based on the intent as specified by a designer
39:03 <Mekkis> clear, in the rules
39:15 <Ballig> read up, Mekkis
39:31 <Spaceshot_tm2> not adding a THIRD WEAPON
39:44 <Ballig> and the post clearly says that it wasn't intended to let you dual wield two-handed weapons
40:02 <Spaceshot_tm2> well input the post here
40:03 <Ballig> I really don't believe the discovery was meant to give you so many incredible options in combat
40:11 <Ballig> almost no other discovery opens up so many options in combat
40:15 <Ballig> I have twice
40:20 <Mekkis> tentacle?
40:23 <Spaceshot_tm2> no, the actual words, not a link
40:38 <Ballig> Mekkis: tentacle is badly written too, but is a bit clearer
40:42 <Ballig> about how it doesn't give you an extra attack
40:51 <Ballig> Spaceshot_tm2: did that already
40:59 <Ballig> feel free to scroll up
41:15 <Spaceshot_tm2> I'm guessing during the netsplit?
41:19 <Ballig> nope
41:25 <Ballig> what started this whole conversation?
41:30 <Ballig> oh wait, me pasting the text of his post
41:53 <Spaceshot_tm2> no, you posted the first line
41:57 <Spaceshot_tm2> not the whole post
42:02 <Ballig> the rest of it was irrelevant
42:05 <Ballig> it was about wing attacks etc
42:15 <Ballig> actually that's not quite true
42:26 <Ballig> The vestigial limb is also not giving you any extra actions. For example, a normal character can use twf to attack with a manufactured weapon in one hand and one unarmed strike, whether that's a punch, kick, or headbutt. He doesn't get multiple extra unarmed strikes per round just because he has an arm, two legs, and a head free. Therefore, you don't get any extra attacks just because you now have 
42:26 <Ballig> a vestigial arm, or two vestigial arms. You're still limited by the normal limitations of the attack sequence.
43:05 <Spaceshot_tm2> doesn't give extra
43:14 <Avatar> hang on
43:23 <Mekkis> Ballig, that's pretty clear
43:26 <Mekkis> the last sentence
43:28 <Spaceshot_tm2> TWF with 2 one-handeds or TWF with 2 two-handeds still give the same number of attacks
43:31 <Avatar> sean saying it wasn't intended to let you dual wield greatswords like a maniac is a complete contradiction of that rule
43:36 <Mekkis> You're still limited by the normal limitations of the attack sequence.
43:44 <Avatar> the rule is saying that's exactly what you can do
43:50 <Ballig> Avatar: actually it's not
43:54 <Avatar> how else do you interpret it
44:11 <Avatar> attack routine using two weapon fighting
44:18 <Spaceshot_tm2> TWF with 2 one-handeds or TWF with 2 two-handeds still give the same number of attacks
44:30 <Ballig> yep, and that's not how it was intended to be used
44:37 <Ballig> so when you have to start arguing about exactly how you do it, because the rules don't account for it
44:44 <Ballig> expect people to rule against you based on it being against the intention
44:45 <Spaceshot_tm2> I'm not using greatswords
44:54 <Spaceshot_tm2> so the non-intent isn't there
44:56 <Avatar> yeah but you're using two two handeds
45:03 <Ballig> don't even start on how you're using some other 2-handed weapon man
45:03 <Spaceshot_tm2> didn't say two-handeds
45:04 <Avatar> (aren't you)
45:11 <Spaceshot_tm2> said greatsword wielding maniac
45:11 <Ballig> don't be a petty dick
45:16 <Spaceshot_tm2> not a maniac, not greatswords
45:21 <Avatar> what weapons are you planning on using
45:26 <Ballig> yeah now you're just being a petty dick
45:30 <Ballig> Avatar: lances, probably
45:36 <Avatar> they are two handed weapons man
45:38 <Avatar> same thing
45:41 <Spaceshot_tm2> katanas, can be one-handed or two-handed easily
45:43 <Ballig> yeah he's using two-handed weapons
45:58 <Spaceshot_tm2> yes, but you're going on about the specifics of his intent, and so am I
46:07 <Ballig> he's clear about the intent
46:07 <Avatar> what else does that rule mean if not that you can wield 2 two handed weapons?
46:19 <Ballig> if you want to focus on "well, he says greatswords and I'm not using greatswords", then you're being a petty dick
46:23 <Avatar> to me that says the line shouldn't be there at all
46:27 <Mekkis> Ballig, how about we start by determining the limitations of the attack sequence
46:30 <Ballig> Avatar: which bit?
46:32 <Avatar> like it was a mistake, rather than it is unclear
46:42 <Ballig> about how you can use TWF with the arm?
46:43 <Avatar> The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or 
46:43 <Avatar> actions  per  round,  though  the  arm  can  wield  a  weapon 
46:43 <Avatar> and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine 
46:43 <Avatar> (using two-weapon f ighting). 
46:50 <Ballig> I already said what I believe that means
46:50 <Spaceshot_tm2> yep
46:59 <Mekkis> where?
47:01 <Spaceshot_tm2> it's not an oversight to not confuse people
47:05 <Ballig> Mekkis: right before you pasted it
47:10 <Ballig> and I told you to read up
47:22 <Avatar> he did say it's legal to use a two handed weapon, a one handed weapon and a shield
47:27 <Ballig> it's a poorly designed, poorly written description
47:34 <Ballig> and a designer has stated what the intention of the ability is
47:36 <Avatar> which I guess accounts for that rule
47:39 <Mekkis> sorry, I wasn't sure what you referred to
47:39 <Ballig> so if it comes down to an argument about the rules
47:42 <Ballig> I'm going with the designer
48:30 <Spaceshot_tm2> http://paizo.com/people/SeanKReynolds19m1e
48:35 <Spaceshot_tm2> woops, gimme a sec XD
49:01 <Spaceshot_tm2> fuck how do you link posts in that forum?
49:07 <Ballig> the date
49:12 <Ballig> next to the person's name
49:16 <Spaceshot_tm2> because lower down he does state that it is legal
49:27 <Spaceshot_tm2> http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4183?Alchemist-Vestigial-Arm-discovery-question#43
49:42 <Spaceshot_tm2> to use a two-hander, a one-hander, and a shield
49:53 <Spaceshot_tm2> intent or not, he does blatenly say it's legal
49:55 <Ballig> that's talking about using a shield with the vestigial arm, and he also says that it isn't as intended
49:58 <Ballig> but isn't disallowed as written
50:04 <Ballig> (and probably should be, and probably WILL be with errata)
50:13 <Spaceshot_tm2> he said it's legal
50:17 <Ballig> but you're going into far more complex territory
50:21 <Ballig> with dual wielding two-handed weapons
50:22 <Spaceshot_tm2> how?
50:40 <Spaceshot_tm2> he's still using 4arms
50:44 <Ballig> territory that requires far more discussion on which rules to use
50:46 <Spaceshot_tm2> two-hander, one-hander, shield
50:47 <Ballig> what penalties to apply
50:50 <Ballig> what strength bonus gets applied
50:50 <Ballig> etc
50:59 <Avatar> because the two handed weapon isn't managed as part of TWF properly
51:02 <Spaceshot_tm2> we're not arguing the specific numbers here
51:06 <Ballig> and I'm telling you that as a GM, if you were to play the character at my table in PFS, I would be ruling against you
51:12 <Spaceshot_tm2> or how TWF works with it
51:16 <Ballig> based not only on our previous discussions on the topic, but that it is against the intention of that ability
51:21 <Spaceshot_tm2> we're asking about if the Vestigial Arms allow it
51:42 <Avatar> the problem is nobody really knows
51:45 <Ballig> right
51:52 <Ballig> which is why it's a STUPID idea to use it in PFS
51:56 <Avatar> so building a character around it is dangerous
52:04 <Spaceshot_tm2> how is a two-handed weapon that different to using a one-handed and a shield arm wise?
52:05 <Ballig> at best you will only be able to play it with some GMs
52:09 <Ballig> at worst errata will disable you
52:20 <Avatar> because it's not proper two weapon fighting
52:20 <Ballig> because using a shield doesn't have attack penalties
52:26 <Ballig> using a shield doesn't ask you how to apply the strength bonus
52:35 <Ballig> using a shield while fighting doesn't require a feat
52:40 <Spaceshot_tm2> what if I spiked that shield
52:47 <Ballig> and make you ask "does the TWF feat reduce penalties when they're two-handed weapons?"
52:55 <Ballig> then you're again going into complex territory
52:58 <Ballig> and his post doesn't at all discuss it
53:01 <Ballig> so the hypothetical is moot
53:15 <Spaceshot_tm2> the rules have been already stated about a two-handed weapon as a main-hand in TWF
53:22 <Spaceshot_tm2> that it's a main-hand
53:33 <Spaceshot_tm2> the off-hand seems to be the issue
53:48 <Ballig> the feat doesn't at all account for more than 2 hands
53:55 <Ballig> so straight away it prompts argument
53:57 <Ballig> as we're all well aware
54:16 <Ballig> add to that a designer of that book stating quite clearly that it is contradicting the intention of the ability
54:18 <Ballig> and you are on rotten ice
54:59 <Mekkis> we're not talking about the two-weapon fighting FEAT
55:12 <Ballig> Mekkis: I wasn't saying you can't physically be capable of doing it, man
55:13 <Spaceshot_tm2> not yet at least
55:28 <Mekkis> you don't need a feat for two-weapon fighting
55:28 <Spaceshot_tm2> does the TWF feat acount for 2 hands?
55:33 <Ballig> I didn't say you did
55:38 <Ballig> I think you've misunderstood this whole argument
55:38 <Mekkis> <Ballig> the feat doesn't at all account for more than 2 hands
55:42 <Ballig> yes
55:45 <Ballig> that was me discussing the feat
55:50 <Ballig> I'm not saying he can't physically be capable of doing it
55:52 <Spaceshot_tm2> where specifically?
55:55 <Ballig> I'm talking about how the rest of the rules interact
56:24 <Mekkis> oh
56:27 <Mekkis> don't worry about it
56:34 <Ballig> and my point of sharing the post was that if it is against the intention of that ability, he shouldn't expect people to interpret the rules in his favour for something that isn't accounted for
56:35 <Avatar> spiking the shield is pointless because it's an extra attack you're not allowed
56:36 <Mekkis> the two-weapon fighting feat doesn't need to cover it
56:47 <Ballig> it doesn't need to cover it for him to do it physically
56:54 <Ballig> but it does need to cover it if he wants to use that feat to reduce the penalties
56:55 <Spaceshot_tm2> the TWF feat only alters the rules (penalties) of TWF
56:57 <Ballig> which is what he said he wanted to do
57:01 <Mekkis> it doesn't need to cover for him having more than two arms
57:13 <Spaceshot_tm2> you can't use flavour as a ruling
57:24 <Mekkis> it's covered in the Bestiary
57:25 <Ballig> what flavour?
57:30 <Ballig> Mekkis: he can't take that feat
57:32 <Mekkis>   Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
57:34 <Ballig> because it's a monster feat
57:38 <Ballig> and you can't take monster feats in PFS
57:39 <Mekkis> congratulations
57:40 <Ballig> which we already told him
57:43 <Ballig> but he argued that he can use TWF
57:47 <Mekkis> therefore he can't take the TWF feat
57:54 <Mekkis> he can still use TWF
57:55 <Ballig> yeah we already told him that
57:58 <Ballig> he disagreed with us
58:01 <Spaceshot_tm2> how can't I take the TWF feat
58:06 <Spaceshot_tm2> TWF feat is applicable
58:10 <Ballig> it's not
58:11 <Mekkis> no it isn't
58:16 <Spaceshot_tm2> I can take it at level 1, with only 2 arms
58:17 <Mekkis> because you have more than two arms
58:17 <Ballig> multi-weapon is applicable
58:19 <Mekkis> yes
58:19 <Ballig> we went over this
58:25 <Ballig> this was our argument on Day 1
58:30 <Mekkis> then, at level 2, you grow another arm
58:37 <Mekkis> your character is illegal,
58:46 <Mekkis> and is dismissed from the Pathfinder Society
58:52 <Spaceshot_tm2> you'd have to take that up with someone higher up
58:59 <Ballig> well, no
59:03 <Ballig> not if you wanted to play in one of our games
59:08 <Ballig> we'd just have to say "that character is not legal for play"
59:10 <Ballig> and you couldn't play it
59:37 <Ballig> you could probably appeal, but I wouldn't hold my breath on us being wrong
00:16 <Mekkis> Spaceshot_tm2, remember, the GM at the table PROBABLY doesn't care HOW your character got to where it is. The GM DOES care whether or not your character is legal.
00:37 <Spaceshot_tm2> Mekkis; if a feat isn't allowed to be used
00:41 <Spaceshot_tm2> what happens to that feat?
00:50 <Spaceshot_tm2> talking about monster feats
00:53 <Mekkis> what do you mean?
00:54 <Spaceshot_tm2> which can't be taken by anyone
00:56 <Ballig> you can't have it
01:04 <Spaceshot_tm2> do they still exist?
01:06 <Ballig> having it makes your character illegal for play
01:15 <Mekkis> yes, they do still exist
01:17 <Spaceshot_tm2> in PFS, do monster feats exist
01:23 <Ballig> of course they exist
01:25 <Avatar> yeah, for monsters
01:27 <Ballig> monsters have them, maybe even NPCs
01:31 <Ballig> but not playable characters
01:34 <Spaceshot_tm2> ok, for PCs do they exist?
01:39 <Mekkis> when Grolschmir hits level 8, Ari will have Multiattack
01:39 <Avatar> no
01:41 <Mekkis> hell
01:41 <Ballig> they exist on monsters
01:51 <Ballig> they exist on animal companions
01:52 <Ballig> etc
01:52 <Spaceshot_tm2> so for players, there are no such thing as monster feats?
01:55 <Mekkis> when Nightmare hit's level 7, he'll have Multiattack :)
02:04 <Ballig> I can add a monster feat to my wolf
02:06 <Mekkis> sorry, hits
02:10 <Avatar> how will Nightmare have multiattack
02:16 <Ballig> his eidolon will have it
02:19 <Mekkis> the eidolon gets it
02:27 <Avatar> that's a special ability for the class
02:30 <Avatar> not the feat
02:43 <Avatar> wow this summoner knowledge I have picked up is really paying off
02:48 <Ballig> haha
03:18 <Ballig> I think my alchemist will be Beastmorph
03:30 <Mekkis>   Multiattack: An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat
03:31 <Ballig> it's not as good as it could have been by the name, but it will be useful
03:35 <Mekkis> it gains the feat
04:22 Jaggedsoul has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
04:29 <Spaceshot_tm2> bonus feat is still a feat
04:33 <Avatar> okay that is an exception
04:34 <Ballig> yep
04:37 <Mekkis> yep
04:39 <Ballig> it's legal for a companion
04:52 <Mekkis> ; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play for PCs, animal companions, or familiars unless specifically granted by another legal source. 
04:56 <Mekkis> http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/resources
05:06 <Avatar> there you go
05:16 <Mekkis> hmmm
05:17 <Mekkis> strange
05:23 <Mekkis> they're legal for eidolons !
05:25 <Mekkis> :)
06:35 <Mekkis> who's up for a session tomorrow?
06:36 <Ballig> I'm waiting for Spaceshot's end-run on the rules with his loaded questions about legal feats
06:44 <Avatar> any word from canine
06:50 <Ballig> no word from Canine
06:54 <Avatar> did you email him
07:00 <Ballig> I did, 4 hours ago
07:07 <Avatar> he should be awake now
07:11 <Ballig> but that was like 3am his time I think
07:14 <Avatar> I think he's done a runner
07:14 <Ballig> and now I think it's 7am
07:42 <Avatar> still aim for CotE tomorrow but we have plenty of backup stuff if he doesn't show
07:56 <Ballig> or maybe it's 9am there now and was 5am when I emailed him
09:07 <Spaceshot_tm2> Ballig: I've stopped caring really
09:13 <Ballig> Mekkis: a character under /enlarge person/ (who has a natural reach of 10 feet as described in the spell) and has natural weapon attacks - do they threaten at 5ft and 10ft, or just 10ft like with manufactured weapons?
09:28 <Mekkis> 5' and 10'
09:31 <Ballig> Avatar: in case you weren't aware, when Spaceshot says he doesn't care anymore it means he concedes defeat (for now)
09:40 <Spaceshot_tm2> got better things I could be doing than spamming the forums with rules quesitons and PFS queries
09:53 <Avatar> I replied to it hoping to get an actual answer
10:14 <Avatar> and marked it for FAQ 
10:33 <Spaceshot_tm2> Ballig: no, it means that the next course of action that I would need to do to get past circular arguement/reasoning/disscussion uses up too much of my time for me to give a fuck
10:44 <Spaceshot_tm2> count it as conceding, I CBF
10:47 <Ballig> in what way is it circular?
11:26 <Ballig> the only way it even remotely resembles circular is because you forget (or ignore) our previous arguments and we have to restate them
11:33 <Spaceshot_tm2> if I kept going on about what constitutes for TWF to turn into multiattack, or saying that since multiattack wasn't allowed in PFS, it couldn't override TWF
11:41 <Mekkis> not multiattack
11:46 <Ballig> multi-weapon attack
11:48 <Mekkis> multiweapon fighting feat
11:52 <Ballig> or multi-weapon fighting
11:53 <Spaceshot_tm2> multi-weapon, same shit different smell
11:58 <Ballig> basically it's the >2 hands version of two-weapon fighting
12:01 <Mekkis> different stuff
12:07 <Mekkis> very different
12:13 <Ballig> multiattack is with natural attacks, like bite and claw
12:14 <Mekkis> and adding the word Feat is required
12:29 <Mekkis> multiattack is a feat that reduces the penalties for multiple attacks
12:30 <Spaceshot_tm2> Mekkis: don't care really
12:35 <Spaceshot_tm2> I said what I said, get over the differnce
12:44 <Ballig> you can physically do it (although exactly what strength bonus will be added is up to interpretation, again it's not covered in the rules explicitly)
12:51 <Ballig> but you can't reduce penalties without that monster feat
13:18 <Spaceshot_tm2> you could, if since you can't take MWF feat you have to live with TWF
13:20 <Mekkis> if you're trying to get a rules answer, use correct terminology, especially when there's a lot of confusion
13:26 <Spaceshot_tm2> if that is how it's ruled in PFS
13:34 <Ballig> TWF isn't applicable
13:39 <Spaceshot_tm2> which I CBF asking, waiting and possibly finding out
13:45 <Mekkis> if you're trying to troll, please go away, or at least do something bad enough to get yourself banned
13:50 <Spaceshot_tm2> PFS could rule it differently, due to what is and isn't allowed
14:01 <Ballig> pretty sure it makes monster feats illegal for this exact reason
14:36 <Spaceshot_tm2> I don't think 4armed guys were even in the questioning when they decided to veto all monster feats
14:49 <Spaceshot_tm2> especially not from Vestigial Arms
14:49 <Mekkis> and really... what do you WANT to get out of this?
14:55 <Ballig> I think they vetoed all monster feats to prevent anything like that happening
15:11 <Ballig> future proofing organised play, as you put it earlier
15:12 <Spaceshot_tm2> Mekkis: you're starting to get irritating
15:18 <Spaceshot_tm2> Ballig: could be
15:30 <Ballig> I guess you could always beg at a convention for a chronicle sheet that allows you to use multi-weapon fighting feat
15:54 <Spaceshot_tm2> does make sense in general, but MWF could only be taken by multi-weapon able people (though IUS could be used there, same with armour spikes. that was probably the reasoning)
16:00 <Spaceshot_tm2> even though you technically need more than 2 arms
16:25 <Mekkis> if it's "A guy with multiple attacks to get large amounts of sneak attack, and use a two-handed weapon", there are ways of doing that without going into rules ambiguities
17:28 <Spaceshot_tm2> I'm not really fussed about the sneak attack
17:34 <Spaceshot_tm2> it just seems more useful than bombs
18:12 <Ballig> bombs can be useful, you add your int to splash damage
18:20 <Spaceshot_tm2> can be
18:59 <Ballig> my alchemist is going the feral route
19:17 <Ballig> similar to the level 5 alchemist I made for EM
19:18 <Spaceshot_tm2> I was going, practically barbarian but more fun route
19:46 <Spaceshot_tm2> oh, jeckle/hyde?
19:50 <Ballig> yeah
19:54 <Spaceshot_tm2> nice
20:12 <Mekkis> if you see your character as one who has consumed a bunch of concatenations to get arms, tentacles, wings, all the better for shoving into enemies' backs for sneak-attacks, then taking sneak attack is better. If you see your character as one who prefers throwing stuff at people and watching them explode, bombs are better...
20:16 <Ballig> it's just annoying that alchemists have +0 BAB at level 1, means my human feats are limited
20:53 <Spaceshot_tm2> I see my character as not bothering with throwing bombs, but instead slaming huge(two-handed) weapons into their face, and if that doesn't work
21:00 <Spaceshot_tm2> go hulk (mutagen) and try again
21:13 <Spaceshot_tm2> sneak attack is just more often useful than bombs is all
21:42 <Mekkis> I'm not debating that. It's subjective.
21:53 <Spaceshot_tm2> it is
22:00 <Ballig> Avatar's face is subjective
22:02 <Ballig> ha ha !
22:06 <Mekkis> I'm just bringing up that you build your character to meet your concept
22:16 <Spaceshot_tm2> that is the plan
22:22 <Spaceshot_tm2> I always do
22:50 <Mekkis> if your concept ends up being best built as a barbarian 1 / fighter 1 / alchemist 5 / obscure prestige class 3, go for it
23:23 <Ballig> but he wants it all at level 3 !
23:23 <Ballig> :p
23:25 <Spaceshot_tm2> barbarian 1 would be for armoured hulk most likely
23:26 <Spaceshot_tm2> XD
23:37 <Mekkis> it's a pity vivisectionist didn't exist back when Mytiazair hit level 2
23:38 <Spaceshot_tm2> would go more than 1 barb if I was also going fighter XD
23:47 <Spaceshot_tm2> heh
25:37 <Ballig> vivisectionist is tempting
25:58 <Avatar> is mytiazair an alchemist
25:59 <Ballig> could be interesting getting three sneak attacks in a round at level 2 (from bite/2 claws)
26:09 <Mekkis> Avatar, no
26:10 <Ballig> all at full attack bonus
26:20 <Spaceshot_tm2> aren't claws secondary?
26:25 <Ballig> they're all primary
26:29 <Spaceshot_tm2> really?
26:39 <Avatar> you can only have one primary and many secondaries, right
26:43 <Mekkis> Mytiazair's an enchanter / rogue / master spy / arcane trickster
26:46 <Avatar> or at least one primary you can use per round
26:47 <Ballig> Feral  mutagen:  Whenever  the  alchemist  imbibes  a 
26:48 <Ballig> mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These 
26:48 <Ballig> are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist’s 
26:48 <Ballig> full base attack bonus.
26:52 <Mekkis> Avatar, not with natural weapons
27:01 <Avatar> natural weapons you can use all at once?
27:08 <Mekkis> pretty much
27:22 <Ballig> the only way that the claws/bite become secondary is if I use a manufactured weapon
29:04 <Mekkis> so Ballig, any chance for more SoTo?
29:40 <Ballig> if there is enough call
30:03 <Mekkis> 100% of the surviving PCs are in for it :)
30:21 <Ballig> ha
30:47 <Ballig> maybe I should run it in pathfinder
30:48 <Spaceshot_tm2> what happened in SoTo?
31:18 <Mekkis> that would require quite an extensive rebuild. Probably worse for your NPCs
31:22 <Ballig> they attacked the thieves guild headquarters and got slaughtered, while Mekkis was incarcerated
31:30 <Avatar> and lucianus destroyed the campaign
31:43 <Ballig> but they only tried to get into the thieves guild because of Lucianus
31:46 <Ballig> he was such a twat
32:05 <Ballig> all he had to do was find a cleric outside of waterdeep, or search down a chaotic temple
32:30 <Ballig> instead of going to his /lawful good/ temple and saying "can you please re-grow the hand that was taken as penalty for a crime I committed?"
32:51 <Mekkis> or ask Ruben :)
33:24 <Avatar> er
33:27 <Spaceshot_tm2> sound's like a mavor, or a bossman, or TheWyrm
33:29 <Spaceshot_tm2> XD
33:31 <Avatar> you had a way of regenerating his hand?
33:37 <Mekkis> yes, Ruben DOES
33:45 <Avatar> why didn't you use it
33:52 <Mekkis> because he was incarcerated
34:00 <Avatar> oh, you weren't there at the time
34:07 <Mekkis> and you guys decided that it wasn't worth trying to free him
34:17 <Mekkis> and instead got yourselves killed
34:17 <Spaceshot_tm2> hehe
34:20 <Mekkis> serves you right :)
34:22 <Spaceshot_tm2> why were you incarcerated?
34:23 <Avatar> was that because we didn't know where you went
34:32 <Mekkis> and you didn't ask?
34:39 <Ballig> he sent a message to the army that was construed as a threat
34:41 <Mekkis> actually, you did know
34:58 <Avatar> why would we just not rescue you
35:00 <Avatar> that doesn't make sense
35:00 <Ballig> you did know, you staked the courthouse out for a while
35:02 <Ballig> but didn't go in
35:17 <Avatar> did we intend to get thief help to do it
35:31 <Mekkis> I didn't know what was going through your heads
35:53 <Avatar> well we did just get blindsided by lucianus
36:03 <Ballig> you wanted the thieves to steal back the box that Lucianus' character gave back to the castle
36:19 <Avatar> not sure, there must have been a reason
36:25 <Ballig> and attacked the guild instead of tricking the stupid half-orc on the door
36:26 <Avatar> we wouldn't just leave you there for no reason
36:32 <Mekkis> you were pretty stupid at that time
36:38 <Mekkis> at least that was what I was thinking
36:48 <Spaceshot_tm2> I think there's a good reason I'm reluctant to playing PFS/DnD/Pathfinder here, or in general XD
36:55 <Avatar> well you did explore the city inch by inch, imagine what we were thinking
38:15 <Ballig> Spaceshot_tm2: you can't retroactively decide why you don't play in here after hearing a story about something that happened before your time
40:01 <Spaceshot_tm2> no no, I've been reluctant before that story
40:11 <Spaceshot_tm2> just that my reason is reinstated is all
40:48 <Spaceshot_tm2> :P
40:57 <Spaceshot_tm2> I'm picky with people I like to play with
41:13 <Spaceshot_tm2> as in in a constant campaign, PFS I can handle XD
41:17 <Ballig> pretty sure none of this is even remotely relevant to the fact that you are too lazy to play and want to play HoN instead
41:31 <Ballig> and can't commit to a regular campaign without bailing after the second session
43:32 <Spaceshot_tm2> coincedence is besides the point ballig XD
43:48 <Spaceshot_tm2> I realised I do a lot on weekends
43:58 <Ballig> and we play primarily on weekends
44:03 <Spaceshot_tm2> had a lul, thought it would stick
44:04 <Spaceshot_tm2> and didn't
44:08 <Ballig> but you still insist that you don't play because you're picky about who you play with and we don't meet those standards?
44:11 <Spaceshot_tm2> in melbourne I've got a better chance
44:11 <Ballig> don't try and bullshit a bullshitter
44:26 <Spaceshot_tm2> no no no, you 4 (including brunius) are good
44:36 <Spaceshot_tm2> others can be questionable
44:46 <Avatar> LEAVE TASHES ALONE
44:53 <Avatar> WHAT DID SHE EVER DO TO YOU
44:54 <Ballig> Sam is a lovely girl, okay
44:56 <Mekkis> and snypt 
44:59 <Mekkis> and proquar
45:00 <Avatar> sam is trouble
45:00 <Spaceshot_tm2> mainly due to not playing with them yet
45:12 <Avatar> she certainly looks lovely at first
45:19 <Mekkis> so you won't play with people you haven't played with
45:23 <Mekkis> ?
45:24 <Ballig> I was playing TF2 with sam the other day
45:49 <Spaceshot_tm2> lol tashes
45:57 <Spaceshot_tm2> no idea why she has total distain for me
46:15 <Mekkis> I hope that was sarcastic
46:31 <Avatar> you haven't played tf2 in forever
46:38 <Ballig> yeah I was playing it the other day, with sam
46:48 <Spaceshot_tm2> Mekkis: no exact reason why
46:57 <Avatar> that is a lie
47:17 <snypt> and snypt what?
47:28 <Ballig> snypt: we were naming quality players
47:39 <snypt> nice i made the cut
47:57 <Ballig> quality players who are jerks and won't play with us
48:09 <Avatar> speaking of playing with us
48:10 <Spaceshot_tm2> snypt also doesn't want to play with me XD
48:12 <Avatar> snypt are you coming to arcanacon
48:19 <Avatar> it's only weeks away now
48:23 <snypt> when is it?
48:28 <Avatar> late jan
48:32 <snypt> australia day yeah?
48:36 <Avatar> uh
48:38 <Mekkis> starts Australia day
48:41 <Avatar> thursday friday saturday sunday
48:42 <Mekkis> continues to the Sunday
48:44 <Avatar> last of the month
48:45 <snypt> wow 4 dayer
48:49 <Mekkis> 26th to 30th
48:55 <Ballig> maybe I should take the friday off and fly down
49:01 <Avatar> go on
49:05 <snypt> ill probably turn up for at least a couple of days
49:05 <Mekkis> that's what I did, Ballig 
49:06 <Spaceshot_tm2> all I want to know is, why all the hate snypt?
49:11 <Ballig> are we all crashing at Avatar's place
49:14 <Mekkis> I took the monday off too
49:18 <Avatar> you can if you want
49:22 <Ballig> haha
49:26 <Mekkis> I am :S
49:28 <snypt> it is in collingwood yeah?
49:41 <Ballig> can snypt crash at your place too Avatar
49:41 <Avatar> yeah
49:44 <Ballig> it will be like a big sleepover
49:48 <Mekkis> chances are I'll need to get up earlier for breakfast with the bigwigs :)
49:51 <Avatar> I guess so
49:54 <Avatar> not sure how many I can fit in here
50:04 <Ballig> snypt can sleep in the shower
50:14 <Avatar> you'll turn the cold water on
50:18 <Ballig> ofc
50:24 <Ballig> "WHO'S THE WANKER NOW, JERK!"
51:03 <snypt> lol
51:04 <Avatar> haha
51:15 <snypt> why do i get the shower?
51:56 <Ballig> why not
52:12 <snypt> im too big to sleep int he shower
52:25 <Ballig> you can sleep standing up
52:26 <Mekkis> sleep in Avatar's car
52:38 <snypt> ah true
52:41 <Avatar> you're not sleeping in my car
52:43 <Avatar> sleep in your own damn car
52:44 <snypt> the shower is good then
52:51 <Mekkis> sleep on his car then
52:53 <Mekkis> or under it
52:55 <Avatar> didn't you train it in last time
53:10 <Avatar> not sure how you did that
53:20 <Avatar> esp after we were super early and everyone else was super late
53:50 <Mekkis> heh
53:52 <Spaceshot_tm2> I'll miss arcanacon
53:56 <Spaceshot_tm2> saddening
54:41 <snypt> yeah im jst awesome like that
54:57 <Avatar> I am not awesome enough for that
54:58 <snypt> but if it is in collingwood train will be easier than driving for me
55:23 <Avatar> Mekkis: is it being held in the same place as last arcanacon
55:26 <snypt> cos i belive it is close to the station too 
55:31 <Mekkis> I'm pretty sure it is
55:50 <Mekkis> probably means that on Friday it'll be rather busy with traffic, right?
56:37 <snypt> back soon
56:47 <snypt> but yeah ill turn up at least a couple of days
57:03 <Spaceshot_tm2> when's the next convention in melb?
57:04 <Avatar> why friday
57:13 <Mekkis> it's a work day
57:21 <Avatar> weekends will be busier
57:24 <Mekkis> Spaceshot_tm2, Conquest
57:30 <Mekkis> Easter
57:35 <Mekkis> I'll be down for that too :)
57:45 <Spaceshot_tm2> I mean in general, not just one that hosts PFS
57:53 <Mekkis> not sure
57:57 <Mekkis> I don't pay attention to that
58:12 <Avatar> who cares about anything else
58:13 <Mekkis> there'll be AusCon III in Brisbane in March or April
58:16 <Avatar> PFS is all there is really
58:23 <Spaceshot_tm2> I play war40k
58:40 <Spaceshot_tm2> and some warmahordes (but I dislike the competiveness of it though)
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