#d&d - 2012-08-24 - AustNet Archive Project

// #d&d — 2012-08-24

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« 2012-08-23 2012-08-25 »
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38:12 <Avatar> why prepare wind wall
39:10 <Ballig> ranged attacks
49:17 <Avatar> I know what it does
49:36 <Ballig> then you already knew the answer
49:40 <Avatar> I wouldn't randomly suggest you prepare see invisibility
49:54 <Ballig> you would if you were betting that the end boss was going to use invisibility against you
50:58 <Avatar> are we making a bet
51:09 <Ballig> [11:16:26 PM] <Mekkis> Avatar, let's take bets on the class of the enemy boss
51:11 <Ballig> apparently
51:30 <Avatar> on the class
51:42 <Ballig> yeah, and he suggested ranger or alchemist, both of which used ranged attacks
51:44 <Avatar> oh I guess he did say ranger
51:46 <Ballig> which is why he further suggested wind wall
51:59 <Avatar> okay that makes more sense
19:53 <Wrothmonk> Hello. What are you guys talking about?
22:01 <Ballig> chandeliers
31:47 <Wrothmonk> chandeliers? Am I missing something or was that meant to be a joke?
31:58 <Ballig> yes
35:36 <Avatar> I once attacked a king with a chandelier
35:48 <Avatar> little known fact
35:52 <Avatar> before ballig's time
35:59 <Ballig> little known fact because it's untrue
36:03 <Avatar> it is true
36:07 <Ballig> there is no before my time, I am time
36:07 <Wrothmonk> Lol.
36:15 <Wrothmonk> rofl!
36:19 <Avatar> on my first character, as a wizard, I ran out of most of my attacking spells
36:28 <Avatar> all I had was a few that couldn't do anything, but I had mage hand
36:30 <Ballig> while attacking a king
36:33 <Avatar> so I asked jerub what was in the room
36:48 <Avatar> oh wait, I lie actually
36:53 <Avatar> I asked him if there was a chandelier, and there wasn't
36:56 <Avatar> but he wore a crown
37:11 <Avatar> so I lifted the crown off his head, spun it around so the pointy bits faced his head, and struck it down with 5lb of force
37:21 <Avatar> (then rolled a 3 to hit)
37:36 <Ballig> see, I told you it wasn't true
37:41 <Ballig> you never attacked a king with a chandelier
37:49 <Wrothmonk> Still funny though :)
38:00 <Avatar> yeah I got my facts wrong
38:02 <Avatar> but that was close
39:07 <Ballig> 5 pounds of force isn't much
39:10 <Ballig> I doubt that would do any damage
39:26 <Avatar> it is better than 0
39:44 <Ballig> it would be like lightly tossing a spoon in my direction
39:56 * Wrothmonk does just that
40:57 <Wrothmonk> Non lethal damage is still good. Hit a wizard with a couple of spoons and he might go unconscious. 
41:33 <Ballig> throwing a spoon at someone isn't going to do any damage, lethal or no
41:50 <Ballig> that's like saying bumping into the wall as you walk through a door in a dungeon gives you nonlethal damage
41:58 <Wrothmonk> Fair point.
42:03 <Wrothmonk> Forks it is!
43:28 <Avatar> isn't 5lb about 2.5kg
43:38 <Avatar> 2.2
43:48 <Avatar> it's like tossing a bottle of milk in your direction
43:58 <Avatar> a big bottle
44:01 <Avatar> with pointy ends on it
44:06 <Ballig> do you know how force works
44:07 <Wrothmonk> 2.2679618 kg.
44:14 <Ballig> we're not talking about the weight of the object
44:31 <Avatar> okay, explain it
44:36 <Avatar> not like tossing a spoon
44:40 <Ballig> a professional boxer hits his opponent with about 1200 lbs of force
44:51 <Ballig> his fist doesn't weigh 1200 lbs
44:55 <Ballig> it's the amount of force put into it
45:16 <Avatar> so basically it travels slowly
45:21 <Avatar> and then taps him
45:30 <Ballig> at 5 lbs of force, yeah
45:44 <Ballig> it's the reason that mage hand is almost exclusively a non-combat spell
46:08 <Avatar> maybe I should've just waved it in front of his face to give a penalty to hit
46:32 <Avatar> I had no idea about d&d mechanics at the time beyond initiative, to hit, and damage
46:46 <Avatar> we didn't even use a map but somehow it didn't matter
47:06 <Ballig> it mattered
47:12 <Ballig> you just didn't realise it mattered until I came along !
47:41 <Avatar> there was like 8 people playing in the game
48:00 <Avatar> once it became a case of 4 melee guys surrounding the king (couldn't attack diagonally), it didn't matter at all
48:02 <Ballig> "split the party!" "that's a great idea!"
57:30 <Wrothmonk> Why would anyone ever… Oh wait no, I forgot for a second there.
07:52 <Mekkis> oh yes, the "7.5' rule"
08:09 <Wrothmonk> Huh?
11:39 * Wrothmonk looks at urban dictionary
11:47 <Wrothmonk> How does that relate to this?
21:07 <Hydrazine> The other thing to remember about applied force is the surface area. If you don't think think 5 lb is dangerous, lie down, put a nail upright on your chest, and drop a 5lb brick on it.
21:26 <Wrothmonk> Oh yeah thats right...
22:07 <Hydrazine> Teach wizards to use leverage! 5 lb on the end of a sufficiently long lever can lift an elephant!
30:51 <Wrothmonk> About that..
30:59 <Hydrazine> hm?
31:06 <Wrothmonk> I don't think a lever long enough could fit in the castle the king was in.
31:29 <Wrothmonk> Or a circus tent.
31:38 <Wrothmonk> Depending on which you want to move/hit
33:02 <Wrothmonk> It would require more than a mile long lever.
33:24 <Hydrazine> Wait, for what?
33:38 <Wrothmonk> Lifting an elephant with a 5 lb brick.
36:17 <Wrothmonk> Assumings you have a average 9,000 pound elephant. 
37:24 * Hydrazine maths.
37:39 <Hydrazine> So, with a 9000 lb elephant you need a mechanical advantage of 1800.
38:08 <Hydrazine> Assuming you can somehow get the elephant to stand on one leg and only require a 10 inch load arm..
38:18 <Hydrazine> you need.. a 1500 foot effort arm.
39:20 <Hydrazine> Chances are by the time you found something strong enough to not just bend like hell at 1500 feet of length.. it would be heavy enough to lift the elephant already.
39:36 <Wrothmonk> Yup.
39:55 <Hydrazine> But if you combine all this.
40:06 * Wrothmonk searches for the flaw in his math that caused one mile to be 0.2 miles.
40:20 <Hydrazine> And use lever action with the biggest lever you can manage, and focus the effort on a very small area..
40:25 <Wrothmonk> 0.2 miles to be a mile*
40:31 <Hydrazine> Uh, mine worked like this.
40:44 <Hydrazine> mechanical advantage = load/effort
40:59 <Hydrazine> 9000/5= 1800.
41:13 <Wrothmonk> oh wait, found it
41:16 <Hydrazine> mechanical advantage also equals effort arm/load arm.
41:30 <Wrothmonk> accidentally got 9,900 pounds.
41:49 <Hydrazine> So with an assumed load arm of 10 inches, 18000 inch effort arm comes out to 1500 feet.
42:16 <Wrothmonk> Yup that sounds right.
42:23 * Hydrazine bows.
42:39 <Hydrazine> You don't know how I get when I can't back up my claims.
42:39 <Wrothmonk> I'm still kinda new at this. Only about a week in principals of engineering.
43:04 <Wrothmonk> Nor do I wish to find out it seems.
43:08 <Hydrazine> I spent an hour not that long ago, at absurd'o'clock, looking for the proof that only clerics in Society play require deities.
43:35 <Hydrazine> I was way past should be in bed time, but I just couldn't go until I found it.
43:44 <Wrothmonk> Lol. I see.
44:02 <Wrothmonk> A tad OCD about not backing up claims.
44:08 <Hydrazine> A little.
44:11 <Hydrazine> It comes from my old job.
45:03 <Wrothmonk> Mind if I ask what it was?
45:10 <Hydrazine> I was a nuclear plant operator. Which is fancyspeak for a professional rules lawyer.
45:49 <Wrothmonk> Ah.
45:54 <Hydrazine> We had the reactor plant manual, which dictated in black and white all the rules for how to run the whole thing. Alot of my job was being able to find the rule for ANYTHING in it.
45:54 <Wrothmonk> Make sense.
46:07 <Wrothmonk> Yikes!
46:30 <Hydrazine> The RPM was about 15 volumes. 8 by 10, about 4 inches thick each.
47:15 <Hydrazine> And then we had the books for all the particular equipment..
47:35 <Wrothmonk> Volumes? I'm not familiar with that form of measurement.
47:54 <Hydrazine> 15 seperate books. At the above size.
48:24 <Hydrazine> Back in a bit.
48:25 <Wrothmonk> oh wait it was the RPM that throw me off.
49:22 <Wrothmonk> I thought rotations per minute. I've been spending to much time thinking about gear systems.
50:05 <Wrothmonk> Then again I've never heard of another acronym being that.
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31:22 <Hydrazine> Yeah..
32:04 <Hydrazine> So basically, how good of a reactor operator you are, is directly related to how much of that book you can either quote from memory, or find with minimal searching.
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23:44 <MekkisScreen> I imagine there's quite a difference between naval reactors and civilian ones?
24:53 <Hydrazine> In some ways? Not necessarily, I would say.
25:46 <Hydrazine> Reactor systems on land don't have to worry about how much of an angle they can tolerate before the fluid systems get wonky.
26:15 <MekkisScreen> until there's geological activity?
26:46 <Hydrazine> You show me geological activity that'll give you a sudden 33 degree shift.
27:03 <Hydrazine> If you got that going on.. you have bigger problems than the reactor.
27:51 <MekkisScreen> [insert generic ground fissure image here]
28:34 <MekkisScreen> I thought the main difference was size, enrichment and output
29:55 <Hydrazine> More or less.
31:20 <Hydrazine> Consider for example the difference between a diesel piston engine in a truck and a diesel piston engine in a train.
31:42 <Hydrazine> size, fuel (maybe) and output. But overall its pretty similar.
32:08 <Hydrazine> I'd mention boats, but most of the really big ships use gas turbines I think.
35:17 <Hydrazine> but output's really a silly thing to bring up. Ofcourse the power output for something that supplies a large city is different from the output of something that runs a small ship.
42:36 <MekkisScreen> one Japanese geophysist I spoke with was blaming the US for the fukushima disaster
43:07 <Hydrazine> Yeah, we used our Earthquake Gun.
44:48 <MekkisScreen> more like, back in the 70s, Japan had no choice but to buy american designs, even though the american engineers didn't know how to design for that unstable geology
47:57 <Hydrazine> Earthquake Gun is way more ufn.
02:17 <MekkisScreen> should the rogue be made an NPC class?
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31:39 <Hydrazine> No.
52:01 <MekkisScreen> qwhy not?
52:59 <MekkisScreen> w -go you think that rogues are not failures?
52:59 <Hydrazine> why should it?
53:29 <Hydrazine> insufficient data
56:38 <Hydrazine> why do you think they should be NPC class?
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05:34 <MekkisScreen> at levels > 6 they're horribly ineffective and underpowered, arguably worse than the warrier class
06:23 <Hydrazine> Ineffective at what? Underpowered in what way?
06:30 <MekkisScreen> they need to be in Pathfinder, for backwards compatibility with 3.5, but they shouldn't be playable
06:52 <MekkisScreen> ineffective in dealing with practically any encounter involving combat
07:45 <Hydrazine> What holds them back?
08:26 <Hydrazine> is SA insufficient damage? Too hard to position? Is it the 3/4ths BAB? Is it the disconnect between attack and damage mods?
08:50 <Hydrazine> Poor AC? Poor HP? What makes them weak?
09:20 <MekkisScreen> to start with, the premise of a rogue being a 'dirty fighter' doesn't work with the mechanics
09:50 <Hydrazine> Because without specific feats, all the combat maneuvers provoke?
09:56 <Hydrazine> Or something else?
20:10 <MekkisScreen> sneak attack is not enough damage
20:20 <MekkisScreen> to start with
20:24 <Hydrazine> Go on.
28:10 <MekkisScreen> in order to realise the potential of sneak attack, the rogue needs to full attack
28:33 <MekkisScreen> this means either using a ranged weapon from hiding, with RAW doesn't work
28:46 <MekkisScreen> or ending your turn neds to the enemy
29:20 <MekkisScreen> since rogues lose abilities for wearing heavy armour, the latter is somewhat suicidal
29:56 <MekkisScreen> they're not particularly good at combat maneuvers, because of low BAB
30:08 <MekkisScreen> and generally low str
37:22 <MekkisScreen> and even so, the damage achieved by sneak attack isn't much
44:54 <Hydrazine> What do you think could be done to fix this?
46:08 <Hydrazine> Full BAB? Better sneak damage? More influences from base stats into damage?
53:09 <Wrothmonk> http://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/files/bloguploads/caption-dude-winner.jpg
53:21 <Wrothmonk> Oh wait, wrong stat.
55:37 <MekkisScreen> as I said
55:44 <MekkisScreen> make it an NPC class
56:12 <MekkisScreen>  NPCs have the advantage of being positioned correctly to take advantage of their abiliities
56:54 <MekkisScreen> if you make it more powerful, it can unbalance printed material
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03:44 <Hydrazine> Would I be wrong in saying that being in melee combat with <d10hitdice and <full plate equivalent AC is overall a risky place to be?
04:02 <Hydrazine> And that this problem is not limited to rogues, but includes monks, clerics, bards, etc?
20:34 <MekkisScreen> no
20:55 <MekkisScreen> hit die doesn't make that much difference
23:35 <Hydrazine> So, minus HD, does my statement apply?
24:28 <MekkisScreen> it's not just being in melee combat
24:41 <MekkisScreen> it's also duration of being in melee combat
24:52 <Hydrazine> Go on.
25:12 <MekkisScreen> for reference, a character can normally survive two or three turns in melee
25:37 <MekkisScreen> if the enemy isn't down by then, Bad Things Happen
30:33 <MekkisScreen> the damage from sneak attack is rather minimal - and it's conditional
30:48 <MekkisScreen> and doesn't multiply on a crit
33:32 <Hydrazine> So sneak attack damage on a whole is pretty weak, and won't even scale to keep up to what a dedicated fighter can do, per round, even if he doesn't crit either.
34:46 <Hydrazine> But back to my question. Is the low damage output in melee combat problem only limited to rogues? Or is there a particular bit about rogues I am missing?
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18:13 <MekkisScreen> what else can a rogue do in combat?
43:27 <Hydrazine> Sing songs?
43:38 <Hydrazine> Laugh at his enemies? Tell jokes? Pick locks?
43:41 <Hydrazine> Search for traps!
44:30 <MekkisScreen> so you're saying that a rogue is a crappy bard?
45:30 <Hydrazine> I'm saying, looking at it from a theoretical standpoint, I do think the base damage potential of sneak attack is notably less than a fighter, even considering always flanked and always sneak attacking.
45:47 <Hydrazine> And I do not believe this should be so.
48:40 <MekkisScreen> what about survivability?
49:18 <MekkisScreen> I mean, a rogue Can outdamage a fighter, IF he gets off two-weapon sneak attacks and hits a lot
09:16 * Hydrazine considers.
10:01 <Hydrazine> How much misc. damage could you pull with an optimized 11 rogue?
10:24 <Hydrazine> I'm picking 11 for comparison sake because I have highly optimized level 11 drafts laying around.
11:03 <Hydrazine> 2 mainhand attacks@ 1d8+stuff+6d6 sneak each, 2 offhands @ 1d6+stuff+6d6 sneak each..
14:08 <Hydrazine> !throw d6d
14:08 <diebot> Hydrazine, d6d: [] 6
14:16 <Hydrazine> !throw 6d6
14:17 <diebot> Hydrazine, 6d6: [6d6=5,5,2,6,3,2] 23
15:13 <MekkisScreen> pretty much yeah
16:21 <Hydrazine> Assuming you get an average of +5 on each attack, which seems pretty reasonable considering main/off hand penalties, rogues not really building str, and power attack/pirahna being a bad idea with the lower BAB..
16:43 <Hydrazine> For a total of +20 a round, you end up at 120 a round, not factoring in crits.
17:56 <Hydrazine> 11th level model polearm fighter, does about 100, not counting crits. accounting for them, because its alot easier with his singular weapon and singular crit chance, he beats the rogue.
18:46 <Hydrazine> If you do count the rogue's crit chance in, I bet the difference gets much closer, since the fighter gains alot more on crits than the rogue does.
19:34 <Hydrazine> I guess my point is that I don't think a rogue can out-damage a fighter by a notable margin.
20:29 <Hydrazine> This is even assuming perfect accuracy, which inflate the rogue's stats more than the fighter's.
21:36 <Hydrazine> So, if ALL that you bring to a fight is just damage.. you should atleast bring enough to make you a Big Deal in the industry of Guys That Do Damage.
22:06 <MekkisScreen> and we haven't taken survivability into account
22:23 <Hydrazine> Agree. This is just a consideration of the raw damage output.
23:08 <MekkisScreen> I don't mind having a character 20% behind in damage
23:43 <MekkisScreen> the problem is that in order to see that damage, you still need to end your turn next to the enemy
27:07 <Hydrazine> It seems like the value of being mr. full plate+shield kinda falls apart as soon as another friendly combatant enters melee. The enemy has absolutely no reason not to him them instead of you. Agree?
27:36 <MekkisScreen> Depending on the enemy's int and tactics
27:59 <MekkisScreen> if it's a hungry dog, it's going to eat the least-armoured
28:50 <Hydrazine> which would you say the majority would attack? Soft rogue or crunchy fighter?
29:48 <MekkisScreen> It's not a democracy
30:32 <Hydrazine> My point is that its up to the enemy, and the players have little control over this.
31:02 <Hydrazine> The tough guy plate+shield type can do nothing to protect his rogue friend once he goes for the flank.
31:15 <MekkisScreen> A smart enemy would golfor the rogue and end up grabbing him
36:21 <Hydrazine> ...Then what?
44:40 <MekkisScreen> then you need to pay 5000gp to get your rogue back
46:08 <Hydrazine> In what way do the other non-heavy armor wearers keep up on the survivability aspect that rogues do not?
49:08 <MekkisScreen> staying out of melee?
49:21 <MekkisScreen> casting spells that increase survivability
51:24 <Hydrazine> Monks?
54:34 <MekkisScreen> wisdom to AC
55:08 <MekkisScreen> also: much higher damage output
55:55 <Hydrazine> Outside of very strenuous optimization, I think I disagree.
01:37 <Hydrazine> Your turn to make numbers happen.
12:14 <MekkisScreen> sure
12:19 <MekkisScreen> when I get home
12:39 <MekkisScreen> what's the target damage number?
13:10 <Hydrazine> Well, We got the rogue and fighter examples at about ~120 a full round.
13:45 <Hydrazine> So, see what you get in comparison.
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46:55 <Avatar-> yo
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57:32 <MekkisScreen> http://pastebin.com/gKWWw7wJ
57:34 <MekkisScreen> 195 damage
57:51 <MekkisScreen> and a lot of money I haven't spent
04:15 <MekkisScreen> is that what you were after, Hydrazine?
11:18 <Avatar> are you guys ignoring that a rogue has a lot of skills over a fighter
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18:41 <MekkisScreen> not at all
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33:15 <MekkisScreen> skills don't prevent you from being ineffective in combat
35:30 <Avatar> they're aren't ineffective, they are just less effective
35:45 <Avatar> just like fighters are less effective at skillmonkeying and not ineffective
36:40 <MekkisScreen> I've run several sessions where the rogue was ineffective
37:08 <MekkisScreen> actually, two sessions I've run, the rogue was a flat-out liability
37:43 <MekkisScreen> I've played in several sessions where the rogue was similarly ineffective
37:55 <MekkisScreen> so it's not just my DMing style
38:36 <Avatar> that's playstyle, not mechanics
38:50 <MekkisScreen> ummm 
38:52 <MekkisScreen> how so?
39:04 <Avatar> how was she a liability
39:54 <MekkisScreen> getting hit, dropping to the ground, and allowing the enemy to attack (and kill) the party member attempting to save him
40:56 <Avatar> that's tactics
41:41 <MekkisScreen> so
41:50 <Avatar> so tactics is playstyle, not mechanics
41:52 <MekkisScreen> the mechanics encourage bad tactics
42:00 <MekkisScreen> isn't that a good reason to discourage them?
42:30 <MekkisScreen> (see also: the banning of the archetypes that weren't the Synthesist in the last update...)
42:32 <Avatar> don't know if i'd agree that they encourage bad tactics
42:36 <Avatar> I see why you're saying that
42:56 <Avatar> come in and attack me with your low AC so you can do your 'extra damage', then kapow
43:09 <Avatar> but you have to be smart about how you play as well
43:14 <Avatar> the rogue should be defined by that
43:35 <MekkisScreen> the second bit, is that I rarely see experienced players playing rogues
43:52 <Avatar> not as easy as dishing out the damage
44:36 <MekkisScreen> the cast I'm making is that it's not "not as easy", it's impossible
46:48 <MekkisScreen> I think that the reason the experienced players don't play rogues is because they KNOW that they don't work
47:27 <Avatar> think they know
47:54 <MekkisScreen> Prove me wrong then, Avatar
48:23 <Avatar> I already have 11 characters
49:15 <MekkisScreen> why, out of those 11 characters, don't you have a rogue?
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51:06 <MekkisScreen> Brunius: why don't you tell Avatar why you're not playing Kaleb any more
52:19 <MekkisScreen> I say Paizo should ban the rogue class
52:20 <MekkisScreen> :)
52:40 <MekkisScreen> anyone who wants to keep playing one can have it grandfathered in
52:54 <MekkisScreen> anyone who wants to start playing one can play a ninja instead
52:55 <MekkisScreen> easy
53:32 <Avatar> only synthesists really needed banning
53:37 <Avatar> and now they are
53:39 <Avatar> banned that is
53:44 <Avatar> anyway
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12:03 <Brunius> I'm not playing Kaleb any more because I'm more interested in the character development of Bairaq at current.
58:21 <Avatar> yeah only my ninja is going nowhere
58:32 <Avatar> I'm interested in the character development of about 4 of my low level characters 
58:44 <Avatar> could've probably had another single 5th level character by now
59:34 <Brunius> Mekkis, in your opinion, which of the AVR intro packs is best?
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36:29 <Avatar> :O
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