// #d&d — 2015-03-24
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00:14:51 <Mekkis> ulzef, if the spring-loaded sheath was meant to be magical, I'd buy that.
00:15:18 <Mekkis> secondly, I agree that drawing a weapon from a sheath does not provoke. Drawing a scroll - if you could - definitely would.
02:03:51 <mr_wibble> How can someone who is almost 30 and never had a job get one? I have been applying(fast food, retail, entry level) just to be told I am not what they are looking for (We have reviewed your application for this position and will be proceeding with other candidates at this time.) or they are not hiring.
02:11:29 <Avatar> lol?
03:57:36 <steven> pizza pizza pizza
04:12:14 <Philderbeast> evenine
04:12:17 <Philderbeast> evening*
04:18:31 <Avatar> ya
04:18:45 <steven> evening
04:19:16 <Avatar> I need to narrow down a list of GMs who don't allow scrolls in spring loaded wrist sheathes
04:19:27 <Avatar> it's too dangerous
04:19:32 <steven> yup
04:19:48 <steven> gloves of storing.
04:19:57 <Avatar> 10k mate
04:20:08 <steven> 10k no table variation
04:20:10 <Avatar> per character
04:20:17 <Avatar> a list will get rid of the table variation
04:26:10 <Philderbeast> there are so many other ways to acheive the same result..... without the table variation just pick one of them
04:28:44 <Philderbeast> http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s2x5?PFS-Items-that-can-save-you-in-2015#17
04:31:36 <Philderbeast> 5 options under 5k
04:44:06 <steven> not as good as a slws
04:44:31 <Philderbeast> but effective and no table variation
04:44:34 <Avatar> you shouldn't have to when the rule supports it
04:47:21 <Philderbeast> except that a lot of GMs would disagree that the rule supports it
04:49:57 <Philderbeast> with other options i would never rely on the GM giving me the best case ruling for something like that
04:56:53 <Mekkis> Avatar, no, you need to realise that scrolls in spring-loaded wrist sheaths is stupid
04:57:40 <Mekkis> But put me down as "Does not allow it, but does allow drawing a scroll as part of a move."
05:05:38 <Avatar> it's a hotly contested rule
05:06:07 <Avatar> is putting arrows in wrist sheathes stupid
05:06:10 <Philderbeast> not really your the only one i know that thinks it should be allowed
05:06:18 <Avatar> really
05:06:19 <Avatar> the only one
05:06:39 <Philderbeast> that I know, doesnt mean others dont think it should work
05:07:07 <Avatar> http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2plml?spring-loaded-wrist-sheaths-and-amount-of
05:07:38 <Philderbeast> oh i know there are loud keyboard warriors
05:07:41 <Philderbeast> on the forums,
05:07:45 <Philderbeast> hence i said that i know
05:07:49 <Philderbeast> not that i have heard
05:07:54 <Avatar> those keyboard warriors are players and GMs
05:08:41 <Avatar> making a decision to say a breath of life scroll can't go in a wrist sheathe is usually making it harder for characters to survive based on a rule that splits the community about 50/50
05:09:07 <Avatar> some people don't mind hard mode, some do
05:09:25 <Philderbeast> when there are plenty of other ways thast are more then affordable by the time breath of life is important
05:09:48 <Philderbeast> its not stopping you from doing something, its just stopping something very munchkin
05:09:59 <Avatar> when do you think breath of life isn't important
05:10:00 <Mekkis> as I said, I allow drawing a scroll as part of a move.
05:10:11 <Philderbeast> when you cant afford it?
05:10:20 <Avatar> before level 2
05:10:34 <Philderbeast> or realisticly expect to be able to cast it
05:10:51 <Avatar> do you think arrows in a wrist sheathe are munchkin as well
05:10:52 <Philderbeast> remember you still need to be able to make the caster level check to cast it
05:11:06 <Philderbeast> its specificly allowed in the text of the item./...
05:11:13 <Philderbeast> stupid as a quiver is better but allowed
05:12:05 <Mekkis> no, I think it's stupid
05:12:22 <Avatar> that's what the item does though
05:12:28 <Avatar> it doesn't matter if you think it's stupid
05:13:52 <Mekkis> yes it does
05:13:57 <Avatar> when you get to the point to argue semantics on how a scroll is harder to unravel vs springing out 5 arrows, it's clear that you're not thinking in terms of the players having fun
05:14:57 <Philderbeast> but that's not why most GM's don't allow it and definatly not why i dont allow it
05:15:14 <Avatar> that's exactly why most don't allow it
05:15:19 <Avatar> what's your reason
05:15:21 <Mekkis> ummm no
05:17:02 <Mekkis> so sure, the rules say something stupid (you can store 5 arrows on your wrist), and you are saying that because of this stupid statement, you should be able to store 5' of rolled up parchment there too
05:17:17 <Philderbeast> because the description of a scroll is not consistent with the items listed that are acceptable to the sheath
05:17:30 <Philderbeast> i.e. its not a solid item
05:17:43 <Avatar> a forearm-length item
05:17:59 <Philderbeast> A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8-1/2 inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell
05:18:36 <Avatar> how long is a forearm
05:18:43 <Mekkis> aka wider than an A4 sheet of paper
05:18:47 <Avatar> we're talking semantics again
05:18:58 <Philderbeast> <Philderbeast>: i.e. its not a solid item
05:19:07 <Avatar> of course it's solid
05:19:24 <Avatar> is it liquid
05:19:40 <Philderbeast> solid as in streghth
05:20:38 <Avatar> it doesnt' talk about durability at all?
05:21:01 <Philderbeast> everything descriobed as being able to go in the wrist sheath is wooden/metal
05:21:19 <Philderbeast> not paper
05:21:20 <Avatar> you can't tell me you're not trying to argue semantics with that
05:21:31 <steven> i have pie.
05:21:48 <Avatar> how far of a stretch is it for you to just say "well, it might fit"
05:21:59 <Philderbeast> I also make sure to let my players know that is my ruling prior to games if i know it will come up so its not a supprise
05:22:05 <Avatar> let's pretend it cost more
05:22:08 <Avatar> would that make it acceptable
05:22:29 <Mekkis> regardless, if you really just want to move and cast Breath of Life from a scroll, my ruling allows this, without wearing a stupid item.
05:22:51 <Avatar> if it's a stupid item, that's an subjective opinion
05:23:23 <Philderbeast> there are lots of ways to make it acceptable, and there are many ways to get arround needing the spring loaded wrist sheath
05:23:40 <Philderbeast> there are also ways to be able to draw it for free without relying on anything but the CRB
05:23:46 <Avatar> I've only ever found out from a GM whether they accept scrolls and potions at the very beginning of a game when it's difficult to walk
05:24:08 <Mekkis> Avatar, be honest here, what is your use-case?
05:24:17 <Philderbeast> thats why you should have a plan B for when they wont let you use it
05:24:25 <Avatar> a scroll in a wrist sheath is my use case
05:24:35 <Philderbeast> and why my cleric avoided the issue entierly and got a greater casters sheild
05:24:35 <Mekkis> and when would you use the scroll?
05:24:35 <Avatar> you shouldn't need a plan B
05:24:52 <Avatar> get to the point mekkis, I don't like pointless questions
05:25:25 <Mekkis> okay. If you're just trying to deliver Breath of Life when it's needed, then drawing a scroll while moving is sufficient.
05:25:36 <Avatar> the problem is the item exists and there are GMs who just decide not to like it and restrict its use, rather than allowing its use to help a player survive
05:26:12 <Avatar> regardless of any semantics it carries, that attitude is the real problem
05:26:15 <Philderbeast> I have no problems with the item, however I have an issue with trying to stretch the rules to make it do the job of a far more valuable item
05:26:17 <Mekkis> If you've come up with some obscure, corner-case where getting a scroll (or especially potion) as a swift action allows you to break the game, it's bad.
05:26:47 <Avatar> it's not an obscure corner-case
05:26:51 <Avatar> it's half the community
05:27:00 <Avatar> if it was an obscure corner case, you'd probably be right
05:27:00 <Philderbeast> particularly in the unlreaistic case of a potion/scroll
05:27:08 <steven> didnt we have ths conversation like last month?
05:27:15 <Brunius_> steven: probably
05:27:17 <Avatar> the potion is the same story
05:27:20 <Philderbeast> I understand why people want it to work like that
05:27:49 <Mekkis> Avatar, what obscure corner case
05:27:56 <Avatar> it's almost like saying you might drop a potion when you retrieve it from your backpack because it's not a haversack and therefore isn't at the top of your bag
05:28:05 <Philderbeast> but when there are specific items to let you do that and they have a far higher cost..... even taking out scemantics it becomes game breaking balance wise
05:28:28 <Avatar> the gloves of storing allow you to retrieve as a free action, and it's any item
05:28:37 <Philderbeast> and cost 10k
05:28:40 <Avatar> right
05:28:47 <Avatar> it's a big price difference, but that's what the rulebook has
05:28:56 <Avatar> just because you don't like it doesn't mean you should punish players on table variance
05:29:13 <Avatar> if you really want players to enjoy themselves, just let them do it
05:29:41 <Avatar> you're always free to not use the item like that yourself on your own character
05:29:41 <Philderbeast> so you want a 5gp item to do the job of a 10kgp item
05:29:49 <Avatar> it's not the same function
05:30:55 <Mekkis> so: What scroll do you put in it, Avatar?
05:32:06 <steven> a scroll of heroes feast... why? because there is pie in a heroes feast
05:34:09 <Philderbeast> and discussions like this are why i avoid table variation items....
05:34:14 <Philderbeast> and builds for the most part
05:37:31 <steven> seriouly though... we have this spring loaded wrist discussion every month or so
05:38:40 <steven> i think they should come out with another really vaguely worded item thats super useful so we can discuss that one for a while...
05:38:57 <Philderbeast> lol
05:39:04 <steven> oh i know how about a spring loaded ankle sheathe
05:39:25 <steven> yeah!
05:39:53 <Philderbeast> well rather then flooging that dead horse how about another take on it, we can all probably agree that its part of a GM's job to make sure the players have fun,
05:40:08 <Philderbeast> whats your thoughts on as a player working to make sure the GM also has fun with the session?
05:46:23 <Mekkis> Avatar, the GM is a player too
05:47:34 <Mekkis> and I still don't see why you'd object to drawing a scroll as part of a move in lieu of putting the scroll in a wrist sheath
06:04:41 <Avatar> it's about the attitude of a GM towards the players rather than the semantics
06:19:07 <Mekkis> not the attitude of a player towards the GM. It seems pretty childish really: "That GM doesn't agree with me on this controversial corner case! Waaa!"
06:20:28 <Avatar> it's not a contraversial corner case
06:21:50 <Mekkis> pretty sure it is: the continued forum discussions seem to indicate that
06:22:13 <Avatar> the forums suggest that it's contraversial
06:22:16 <Avatar> not that it's a corner case
06:22:46 <Avatar> if a clear majority we're saying no scrolls can't go in them, then it's fair for a GM to rule that way
06:23:14 <Mekkis> if it's about 50%, then it's a good idea not to rely on it.
06:23:24 <Avatar> due to table variance
06:23:34 <Avatar> not because the intent seems to sway one way or another
06:23:43 <Avatar> and the best way to GM is to err on the side of the players
06:23:48 <Mekkis> also, look at the posters who are arguing each way
06:24:00 <Avatar> so if you're a GM who's erring on not allowing something that's split like that
06:24:03 <Mekkis> the more experienced GMs all tend to go towards the "no way"
06:24:06 <Avatar> I have problems with that
06:24:23 <Avatar> have you tallied it up
06:24:27 <Avatar> by name
06:24:30 <Mekkis> no
06:24:33 <Mekkis> have you?
06:24:42 <Avatar> no but I'm not the one claiming the more experienced GMs say this
06:24:54 <Avatar> I know half of them say no and half of them say yes
06:25:24 <Avatar> it's not 10-20% of people saying no like you're suggesting
06:25:30 <Avatar> that would be a corner case
06:28:07 <Mekkis> it's a clear grey area
06:28:25 <Mekkis> Mark Seifter is quoted as saying it is!
06:28:34 <Mekkis> http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rqyc?Springloaded-wrist-sheaths-and-table-variation#25
06:29:25 <Avatar> suggesting a GM can rule harshly or leniently
06:29:33 <Avatar> which do you think makes for a better ruling for a player
06:30:39 <Mekkis> I think that disallowing scrolls in spring-loaded sheaths, but allowing drawing scrolls as part of a move is the best compromise
06:31:27 <Avatar> you shouldn't be making a compromise rule like that when there's already a written rule
06:31:32 <Avatar> you either allow it or you don't
06:32:38 <Mekkis> if you're making the argument that seems to always come up ("I want to put a scroll of Breath of Life in there to save a fallen ally"), then it puts the player in a BETTER position than before.
06:32:54 <Avatar> you don't know that
06:33:00 <Avatar> your move action can provoke
06:33:13 <Avatar> to begin with
06:33:17 <Avatar> I don't know what else it might affect
06:33:28 <Avatar> why would you want to put them in a better position than what's written
06:34:19 <Avatar> rods are a better example of a corner case, because almost nobody allows that
06:34:26 <Mekkis> drawing a non-weapon from a wrist sheath would provoke. It's clear: it provokes 'as normal'
06:34:40 <Avatar> I'm talking spring loaded, obviously
06:34:52 <steven> jeeze you guys sstill goin on bout this?
06:35:01 <Mekkis> a spring-loaded wrist sheath also provokes as normal
06:35:39 <Avatar> no it doesn't
06:36:01 <Avatar> it works like a standard wrist sheath in that it releases an item
06:36:34 <Avatar> to say maybe it provokes as well is another level of clarity everyone needs and doesn't have, and to rule that it provokes is to err against the player
06:37:28 <Avatar> every time you have to make a call, you should be asking yourself if you're erring in favour of the players or not
06:37:43 <Avatar> assuming the bad guys get the same advantage or disadvantage
06:37:47 <Mekkis> I also ask myself who the players are.
06:37:51 <Avatar> unless you're playing for players who like hard mode
06:39:48 <Mekkis> Casting a Quickened Scorching Ray does not provoke, but the ranged touch attacks of the rays of fire do.
06:59:43 <Mekkis> If you've looked into real-life spring loaded sheaths, even with today's technology, they:
06:59:44 <Mekkis> - only work for the specific knife they're designed for (which won't have a blade longer than 100mm, generally). Good luck putting anything else in it and expecting it to function.
06:59:44 <Mekkis> - are really dangerous. You have a blade with a bunch of springs behind it, held by a small catch. One bump and you risk cutting yourself and dropping the knife.
06:59:44 <Mekkis> - as a consequence, you need to be very careful around them, restricting your movements.
06:59:45 <Mekkis> If anyone can show me anything to the contrary, please show me a link.
07:16:47 Topic for #d&d is: PFS: TBA || WotW: TBA || All topic times are AEDT (UTC+11:00); set your timezone on the site to see your local times in the Schedule! | Pathfinder Online http://www.pfrpg.com.au
07:16:47 Topic for #d&d set by Avatar at Sun Feb 22 23:01:30 2015
07:16:47 <***> Buffer Playback...
07:16:47 <***> Playback Complete.
07:32:40 <Avatar> acrobat does have that tile option like foxit does
08:12:29 <ulzef> in your exsample mekkis the shift does not prevoke however it does because the normal action does drawing a weapon normaly does not provoke therefore the wrist sheath would not
08:13:10 <ulzef> also can you give me a link of someone rubbing a small amount of sulfur and bat poop and making a fireball
08:21:30 <Avatar> this fate of the fiend map can't even be attached to an email because it's 13 megs
08:37:55 <steven> i should buy a new pair of boots.
08:38:15 <steven> i think there is a redwings dealer over in moscow... spendy shoes but totally worth it.
09:04:13 <Mekkis> steven, I work in an office
09:15:52 <Mekkis> ulzef, if the spring-loaded sheath was meant to be magical, I'd buy that.
09:16:19 <Mekkis> secondly, I agree that drawing a weapon from a sheath does not provoke. Drawing a scroll - if you could - definitely would.
09:16:51 <ulzef> it might not be magic however it is made in world where there is magic so its crafting could be influenced
09:40:43 <Avatar> I wear boots on fridays
09:42:09 <steven> i wear boots everyday!
10:30:14 <steven> there we go, now its uploading all my spreadsheets for my characters onto my drive
10:38:49 <steven> alright, im here to state my opinion
10:39:08 <steven> Pie is delicious.
15:28:35 <Goya> I work in an office and I wear boots (Doc Martins).
15:29:55 <Goya> Erm. *Martens
17:36:04 <Avatar> pretty clever of me to try and use png's to tile in acrobat
18:16:26 Steven1 ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
18:16:26 Steven1 is now known as steven
18:18:35 steven is now known as Steven1
18:27:54 <Mekkis> not at all, Avatar
18:31:40 <Avatar> not at all clever indeed
19:08:41 Brunius_ has quit (Ping timeout: 121 seconds)
19:38:55 Brunius_ ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
22:50:24 <Mekkis> Any more indication regarding conquest?
23:07:39 Brunius|L ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
23:07:53 <Brunius|L> So Mekkis, you know how you said ages ago I should build my own IRC client?
23:08:00 <Brunius|L> I finally got around to doing it
23:08:12 <Brunius|L> First connection today, after figuring out the newline marker is needed
23:11:02 Brunius|L has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
23:20:25 <Mekkis> Brunius_, yay!
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