// #eevblog — 2018-12-26
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00:08:23 <aram> hahha, that BSD vs. GPL hate in dave's latest video
01:10:08 <hsn> EEVblog #1163 - Xmas Mailbag?
02:45:05 Quit: hsn ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
04:40:13 <MrMobodies> I like the Indians from the electronic kit in the Xmas mailbag. They sounded comical whilst doing into detail.
04:44:39 <steve30> i too thought it was quite humerous
04:45:58 <MrMobodies> It reminds me a bit of the tv show Goodness Gracious me.
05:14:09 Quit: Ampera ([email protected]) Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in
05:14:09 Quit: EEVBlog ([email protected]) Quit: The bot went SPROING!
05:15:08 Join: Ampera ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
05:15:18 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o Ampera
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05:15:38 Quit: EEVBlog ([email protected]) Changing hosts
05:15:48 Mode: (by ChanOP) +v EEVBlog
05:25:51 <MrMobodies> I was just reading that Quad Copter thread and see Cdev got kicked off...
05:26:51 <Ampera> what was he banned for?
05:27:15 <MrMobodies> hhmmm.. making pet agenda points too many yimes according to Mr Scram
05:27:23 <MrMobodies> oops times...
05:27:32 <Ampera> ahhh, yimes
05:27:36 <Ampera> yellow limes
05:28:01 <MrMobodies> Sounded a bit Chinese, that mistake.
05:29:13 <MrMobodies> We should open thread called "Conspiracy Development" where Cdev can post all the politcal and conspiracies there rather than in the topics.
05:29:17 <MrMobodies> that was a joke sorry.
05:29:49 <Ampera> I wasn't aware jokes were still legal in many parts of the world
05:29:55 <Ampera> I thought they got banned for being too offensive
05:30:36 <MrMobodies> No they have set rules recently on some comedian working at a university.
05:30:53 <MrMobodies> So he couldn't make jokes so he refused the contract.
05:30:58 <Ampera> yeah I saw that
05:31:17 <Ampera> It's sort of like hiring a chef and saying he's not allowed to use a knife
05:32:42 <MrMobodies> I have been put in a similar situation similar to something like this: "Replace that wall clock into that room but you are not allowed to go into the room"
05:33:04 <Ampera> how did you replace the clock?
05:33:19 <MrMobodies> Talking of some people who expect miracles.
05:35:18 <MrMobodies> I knocked the wall and put a freestanding ladder with enough weight to support me.
05:35:43 <MrMobodies> When I patched everything up and got it working perfectly they said it was a massive overkill
05:35:55 <MrMobodies> and they only wanted a "bit" of a working clock.
05:36:20 <Ampera> now you've confused me
05:36:52 <rust_collector> why didn't you just pay some guy $5 to replace the clock?
05:36:59 <Ampera> ^
05:37:00 <MrMobodies> It was a joke on some work I have done for someone.
05:37:05 <MrMobodies> Yes I told them that
05:37:45 <MrMobodies> They are just people who wanted miracles.
05:37:54 <MrMobodies> Something for nothing.
05:39:10 <MrMobodies> I have eaten so much and a bit drunk. I am going to try and start continuing my desk
05:39:20 <MrMobodies> And sober up a bit.
05:40:28 <MrMobodies> I have got some wooden wiring trays left and it is nearly finished.
09:33:00 <Halcyon> Hey gents
09:33:15 <rust_collector> hey... you
09:33:32 <Halcyon> :)
09:34:15 <Halcyon> Ampera :)
09:39:19 * IoTPanic waves to everyone
09:57:42 <Halcyon> Hey IoTPanic
10:31:25 <MrMobodies> Hello
10:31:41 <MrMobodies> I was just playing with some lights.
10:31:49 <Halcyon> Christmas lights?
10:32:12 <MrMobodies> Nope cold cathode lights
10:32:27 <MrMobodies> I got them down the charity shop for £1.50
10:32:28 <MrMobodies> Goodness Gracious me.
10:32:30 <MrMobodies> oops
10:32:34 <MrMobodies> sorry clipboard issue
10:33:01 <MrMobodies> https://i.imgur.com/UdfS5BI.jpg
10:33:22 <MrMobodies> I saw them and I knew where they were going
10:34:09 <MrMobodies> My battery charges are not easy to see in the dark. I tried many differents lights there but I find they were too bright.
10:34:17 <MrMobodies> but with these they are just perfect
10:34:18 <MrMobodies> https://i.imgur.com/QyLFWVP.jpg
10:34:55 <MrMobodies> I can see the display further back and it looks really nice
10:35:21 <MrMobodies> Not bad for £1.50
10:36:11 <MrMobodies> I suppose those are my Christmas lights fot the workshop.
10:36:49 <Halcyon> I need to rearrange my server rack today
10:37:08 <MrMobodies> Is it overflowing with wires?
10:37:24 <Halcyon> Just about. The network side of things is really neat, but the power is a big "how you doing".
10:37:34 <Halcyon> I need to move the power rails from the front to the rear
10:37:49 <Halcyon> *bit
10:38:51 <MrMobodies> I brought some of those 10 ways sockets for my a large desk I am doing in the attic. The wires were making me sick but in a couple of days I;ll have some photos of it.
10:40:35 <Halcyon> Nice
10:40:54 <MrMobodies> I need a proper server rack but that'll be when I move. Not enough room which is why I am moving. I got a small rack from Woolworths that came with a Cisco 2801 and a 24 port l2 cisco switch in 2008 for £200.
10:41:00 <Halcyon> Yeh those long rails are great for mounting to work benches
10:41:10 <Halcyon> Basically power outlets where you need them
10:41:23 <Halcyon> Nice
10:41:36 <Halcyon> I picked up a half-height Dell rack for AUD$300
10:41:49 <MrMobodies> I didn't know they made racks
10:42:08 <Halcyon> Oh yes, same as HP. They make their own racks for their enterprise gear.
10:42:59 <Halcyon> https://www.dsiwholesalers.com/images/lg_Dell2410Enclosure.jpg
10:43:02 <Halcyon> That's the one I have'
10:43:35 <MrMobodies> I like the long and narrow ones. You can get behind and work on them.
10:44:15 <MrMobodies> On using it on the ground some wheels would look good on that.
10:44:17 <Halcyon> *nod*
10:44:17 <rust_collector> I don't remember the details, but ikea had a bookshelf or something, that had the4 correct dimentions, so you could use it as a server rack
10:44:22 <Halcyon> Yep
10:44:28 <Halcyon> The Lack coffee/side table
10:44:34 <rust_collector> ah, ok
10:44:46 <Halcyon> https://wiki.eth0.nl/index.php/LackRack
10:45:16 <rust_collector> hah
10:45:23 <Halcyon> https://www.ikea.com/au/en/catalog/products/10370010/
10:45:35 <IoTPanic> "LackRack is the ultimate, low-cost, high shininess solution for your modular datacenter-in-the-living-room." XD
10:45:48 <MrMobodies> Excellent. legs are go large it makes it a good mounting post
10:45:51 <IoTPanic> What a niche
10:46:04 <IoTPanic> And hi Halcyon
10:46:25 <MrMobodies> I wouldn't have bothered mounting the big switch under my desk. I would have got that. oh well.
10:46:35 <rust_collector> I do regret not stealing one of the sun rack/cabinet/trolley things. If nothing else, I could move into one
10:50:55 <MrMobodies> Like this one?
10:50:58 <MrMobodies> https://i.imgur.com/AujgWkw.jpg
10:50:58 <Halcyon> The only think I'd be concerned about is that wood isn't very dense. It won't support much weight
10:51:13 <Halcyon> Not with the front screws alone anyway
10:51:40 <MrMobodies> I see it might get loose
10:52:43 <Halcyon> Although I like what they've done here: https://wiki.eth0.nl/index.php/File:5x_lackrack.jpg
10:52:50 <Halcyon> Used the tops of the bottom ones to support servers
10:53:38 <MrMobodies> It looks nice.
10:54:04 <MrMobodies> Good for audio rack gear too
10:54:52 <MrMobodies> An opportunity to build a shroud and put a fan behind that to suck out the hot hair.
10:57:44 <MrMobodies> These are the ones I ordered:
10:57:45 <MrMobodies> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113153948215
10:58:35 <MrMobodies> four of those to surround and I brought 5m 2x1.5mm cable to go with it.
11:17:54 <Halcyon> Nice
11:39:12 <MrMobodies> I ordered a gs108t on ebay. Something heavy came in a jiffy bag. It was rattling and I knew there was trouble. I took the camera out and the heatsink was loose from the vents. I have yet to hear from the seller.
11:39:59 <MrMobodies> I phone Ebay up and they agree from the pictures that it will be an automatic refund whether the seller responds or not.
12:22:54 <IoTPanic> Anyone get anything good for Christmas?
12:23:17 <Halcyon> Yeh I got quite a bit. I think my favourite gift was a Book of Mormon tea towel
12:23:23 <Halcyon> I absolutely love that musical
12:37:00 <IoTPanic> Nice, I got a new Vacuum. The part that hit me about adulating is I was really excited about it
12:37:13 <coppice> That sucks?
12:40:05 <IoTPanic> Quite a bit ;)
12:41:08 <IoTPanic> I'm watching someone make a CPU core by writing veralog. Is this the way to do it...?
12:41:49 <IoTPanic> I feel like through the magic of people who work on this sort of stuff we'd have something better...
12:41:49 <MrMobodies> I got an old Sebo Volcano 2100w
12:41:59 <MrMobodies> That sucks things up well
12:42:05 <MrMobodies> ooh
12:43:10 <coppice> IoTPanic: most stuff is developed through either verilog or VHDL these days
12:43:29 <Halcyon> IoTPanic: Nice :D
12:43:52 <Halcyon> I think the best gift I ever got (last year for my birthday) was a Roomba robotic vacuum.
12:44:09 <Halcyon> Absolute time saver and picks up so much crap from corners and under furniture.
12:44:58 <Halcyon> Anyway I'll be back soon gents. Need to power down my server rack so I can re-do the power cabling.
12:45:00 <MrMobodies> I guess it knows it's place for standby and charging,
12:45:19 <IoTPanic> Huh, alright. I wanna make a custom CPU architecture that I can make a C compiler for then try to run a stupid simple program compiled from C. Will make me happy
12:45:47 <Halcyon> MrMobodies: Yes, I returns to the dock when it's finished or the battery is running low
12:45:54 <Halcyon> *it
12:46:05 <coppice> IoTPanic: what kind of thing would you expect to see instead of verilog?
12:46:43 <IoTPanic> Not sure, just thought there would be something different. If thats what I gotta do, it doesn't seem terrible
12:47:59 <IoTPanic> Is the tinyFPGA a good bet?
12:49:36 <coppice> Using Verilog or VHDL allows for multiple levels of vewing the design from behavoural down to RTL
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13:08:29 Join: ThunderSqueak ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
13:17:43 <IoTPanic> Alright
13:23:03 Join: Guest|14469 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
13:26:39 Quit: Guest|14469 ([email protected]) Quit: Leaving
14:05:13 Quit: orzel ([email protected]) Quit: Konversation terminated!
14:06:49 Join: Halcyon ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
14:06:50 Mode: (by ChanOP) +v Halcyon
14:06:55 <Halcyon> YAY! Rack is all tided up now
14:09:41 <DHess_US> A tidy rack is a rack which needs more stuff added.
14:09:53 <Halcyon> :)
14:10:22 <Halcyon> Also tested out the UPS, should get about 1 hour, 15 minutes runtime
14:10:44 <Halcyon> Probably a little more as it load-sheds non-critical stuff
14:16:33 <DHess_US> Just need long enough for a planned shutdown.
14:16:49 <Halcyon> *nod*
14:19:33 <Halcyon> Hahahah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w
14:22:13 <Halcyon> I miss old comedies like that. You used to be able to get away with just about anything on TV, even in the 1990s.
14:22:26 <DHess_US> Got my Windows 10 test system to crash a few more times. It seems like a hardware problem related to clock speed. Underclocking seems to solve it.
14:26:35 <Halcyon> Strange
14:29:15 <DHess_US> It's old although never used hardware but I expected something a little more diffinitive.
14:30:06 <DHess_US> If I lower the CPU and RAM multipliers, then it doesn't crash. But lowering the reference clock is not enough.
14:30:53 <DHess_US> It's weird that there are no other signs.
14:31:21 <Halcyon> And you need to clock it down below their rated speeds?
14:31:59 <DHess_US> Yes, but it isn't clear yet if it is a memory bus issue or the CPU core clock speeds.
14:32:07 <Halcyon> What kind of CPU is it?
14:32:33 <DHess_US> i7-870
14:32:44 <Halcyon> Very odd and the board?
14:32:54 <DHess_US> Asus - P7P55D-E Pro
14:33:02 <Halcyon> Should be fine
14:33:09 <DHess_US> i7-870 SLBJG(B1) 2.93GHz 22x133MHz 4xDDR3 1333-1066 16GB
14:33:21 <DHess_US> Yea, but it is a gaming board which has all kinds of overclocking options.
14:33:47 <Halcyon> It should be fairly stable if all those are turned off/left on auto
14:33:58 <DHess_US> Should be but is not.
14:34:11 <Halcyon> Might just be a bit of a cheap/nasty board?
14:34:12 <DHess_US> And it is not temperature. It has a massive heat sink now.
14:34:17 <Halcyon> I'm not a huge fan of consumer boards
14:34:37 <DHess_US> I've never had any trouble before or when I did, it was just unrecoverable.
14:34:57 <DHess_US> Memory and CPU stress tests never showed anything but I wasn't running them weeks at a time.
14:35:20 <Halcyon> You shouldn't really need to
14:35:41 <DHess_US> so it is running at 2.4G now and 800MHz memory
14:36:14 <DHess_US> I'm not sure you can turn off *all* of the overclocking options on the board.
14:36:24 <DHess_US> A few are either auto or enable.
14:39:55 <DHess_US> CPU temp is 40C at full load.
14:40:12 <Halcyon> Hardly anything
14:40:27 <DHess_US> ambient is 24C atm
14:40:54 <DHess_US> CPU temp was marginal with the Intel stock heat sink so I put a spare Hyper212 on it.
14:41:32 <Halcyon> I've always found the Intel heat sinks more than adequate. Perhaps the compound is a bit old and crusty ?
14:41:48 <DHess_US> No, I changed it twice.
14:41:56 <DHess_US> Used the good stuff.
14:41:59 <Halcyon> Hm
14:42:01 <Halcyon> Fair enough
14:42:31 <DHess_US> With the Hyper212 it doesn't even spin the fan faster than minimum at full load.
14:42:38 <DHess_US> Nice and quiet.
14:44:30 <DHess_US> I'll just write it off to old flakey hardware. Even underclocked it has plenty of performance.
14:47:55 <Halcyon> Sounds sensible
14:50:29 <DHess_US> It is going to end up operating as a media and desktop system anyway.
14:59:40 Join: coppice_ ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
14:59:45 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o coppice_
15:00:02 <Halcyon> I've never been a huge fan of Windows 10
15:00:12 <Halcyon> Even on decent hardware, I find it a big flakey
15:00:59 <DHess_US> Windows 10 doesn't seem like the likely cause since underclocking stops the crashes.
15:01:16 <Halcyon> It could be a combination of things
15:01:25 <Halcyon> Have you tried another OS at normal CPU speed?
15:01:47 <DHess_US> Yes, when I ran the cpu and memory stress tests.
15:02:04 <Halcyon> And what was the result?
15:02:16 <DHess_US> No problems. But I didn't run them for weeks at a time.
15:02:19 Quit: coppice ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
15:02:35 <Halcyon> Hmmm
15:02:57 <Halcyon> Based on that alone, I'm not convinced that it's not Windows 10 causing at least part of the problem
15:03:34 <Halcyon> Could even be as simple as a driver glitching out
15:03:43 <DHess_US> I've seen this sort of thing caused by the north bridge but on the Intel chip, there is no control over that.
15:04:03 <DHess_US> So the driver only glitches out at higher clock speeds?
15:04:11 <Halcyon> Who knows?
15:04:20 <Halcyon> I've seen stranger things
16:12:51 Join: hsn ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
16:16:16 <Ampera> y'all are cueers
16:16:41 <Ampera> in other news I fucking knew it, Halcyon: http://prntscr.com/lzklqk
16:18:33 <Halcyon> Nooooooo
16:18:37 <Halcyon> What the hell is Dave doing?
16:18:49 <Ampera> he told people to subscribe to pewdiepie
16:18:56 <Halcyon> But.... WHY!?
16:19:16 <Ampera> I think he put it best, when he said that as a community we're trying to keep the You in YouTube.
16:19:29 <Halcyon> But PewDiePie is a dick
16:19:34 <Ampera> since when?
16:19:39 <Halcyon> Since forever?
16:19:44 <Ampera> he's actually a cool dude, and stands up for a lot of really important issues
16:19:46 <Halcyon> What does he offer Youtube
16:19:52 <Ampera> content?
16:19:58 <Halcyon> He might do, but he acts like a child
16:20:13 <Ampera> Well yes, have you seen YouTube for the last 12 years?
16:20:18 <Halcyon> Indeed
16:20:27 <Halcyon> And it's that sort of crap we shouldn't be advocating for
16:20:28 <Ampera> The point isn't his content, which isn't bad by the way.
16:20:34 <Halcyon> It's mindless garbage
16:20:35 <Ampera> He does more than just screams at games.
16:20:47 <Halcyon> This world is getting dumber by the year
16:21:06 <Ampera> Either way, he represents a channel that was started by an individual, who rose through the ranks to become number one, about to be deformed by some faceless corporation from India.
16:21:09 <Halcyon> Soon we'll be watering our crops with Gatorade... because... electrolytes.
16:21:46 <Ampera> Halcyon, it's a YouTube channel, There's an infinite flow of absolute crap that's on so many indescribable levels worse than PewDiePie, that is actually marketed directly at children.
16:22:18 <Ampera> and if you're hopping on the PDP is a Nazi/racist bandwagon, then you seriously disappoint me.
16:22:45 <Halcyon> I totally agree
16:23:01 <Halcyon> But Dave is smarter than that
16:23:20 <Halcyon> I never called him a Nazi? Where the hell did that come from!?!
16:23:30 <Ampera> I never said you did, I said if you view him as that
16:23:49 <Ampera> because he's getting slammed by a load of mainstream media sources for jokes that were taken out of context, and not as jokes.
16:24:18 <Halcyon> That's like saying: Ampera, if you think that water is poison and that bats make good appetisers, then we are no longer friends.
16:24:20 <Ampera> PewDiePie represents the keystone of internet culture, he's an icon that everyone can laugh at and with.
16:25:06 <Ampera> Well if I was going on about particularly hating water filtration systems and started thinking about what the hell to do with all these bats, then perhaps you might jump to such a conclusion, based on the similar topic of discussion.
16:25:26 <Halcyon> I guess I'm the minority. I'd like to see humanity strive for education and greatness.
16:26:02 <Halcyon> I have nothing against PewDiePie personally, he can go nuts. I just don't find his content particularly stimulating.
16:26:18 <Ampera> What about this isn't of educatory and greatness? This is a culture, one forged over 20 years of interactions over the WWW.
16:26:55 <Halcyon> Yes, the WWW, such a trove of intelligence :)
16:26:57 <Ampera> Then don't watch it, and try to see what he represents. YouTube has been increasingly bowing to corporations trying to turn it into TV 2.0, when the little guy content creators who made the platform what it is are continually being stomped into the dust.
16:27:01 <Halcyon> I don't watch it
16:27:18 <Halcyon> And this is news?
16:27:27 <Halcyon> This has been happening for ages
16:27:30 <Ampera> W3 has been the key learning influence on my life. Without it I wouldn't have nearly any of the experience I do now.
16:27:52 <Halcyon> Google/Alphabet/YouTube couldn't give a shit about individual content producers
16:28:15 <Halcyon> No I completely I agree with you. The internet is awesome, but it's mostly full of crap and porn.
16:28:17 <Ampera> Yes, but PDP represents a fight against that, people seriously trying to, on a platform that is less than fair, but enough so that this can happen, keep someone like PDP at the top against corporations.
16:28:46 <Ampera> He's the cornerstone of memes and jokes, enough so that even fairly normie calm channels like JaidenAnimations risked her spot in the Rewind to make a load of references to him.
16:29:29 <Ampera> You don't have to like his videos to like him, that's not what the subscribe to pewdiepie movement is about. It's about plain old fashioned shitheads comming together to keep little guys in business, so conglomerates don't take over.
16:29:44 <Halcyon> I appreciate what YouTube has done for small-time content producers like Dave, absolutely. But from Day 1 they knew they were at the mercy of a large company.
16:29:48 <Halcyon> That's the risk you take
16:29:57 <Ampera> Alright, let me give you an analogy.
16:30:18 <Halcyon> I suggested years ago that Dave should move to another platform.
16:30:31 <Ampera> Years ago, groccery stores in the US were owned largely mom and pop. You had a few large ones, especially supermarkets after/during WW2.
16:30:53 <Ampera> Then a few started to get big. They'd open a few stores, buy out some others, grow a bit, but then they started to be real dicks about it.
16:31:16 <Ampera> Supermarkets in the US started to buy exclusivity from all the distribution channels that gave the mom and pop shops anything to even sell on their shelves.
16:31:29 <Ampera> That started to fold competition real quick.
16:31:43 <Halcyon> Sure, that's big business for you.
16:31:51 <Ampera> You could argue it's the free market, and by opening a mom and pop shop, you're always at risk of your livelyhood being destroyed by a corporation.
16:32:07 <Halcyon> I don't agree with it, but I also don't agree with the notion that they shouldn't have rights to do that kind of thing.
16:32:22 <Ampera> The point is that people don't /like/ that. Nobody wants a faceless corporation like Walmart, we only tolerate it because they manage to supply stuff at the bottom line, and there is now little to no other alternative.
16:32:38 <Halcyon> Sure
16:32:44 <Ampera> Rights is what the government wants you to do. What we're arguing is that we want to speak with our mouths minds and wallets to stop this.
16:32:59 <Halcyon> But people who carry on about it, but then shop at the large chains don't have the right to complain about it.
16:33:04 <Ampera> We as consumers do not want big business on YouTube, we don't want TV personalities, we don't want conglomerates from bollywood.
16:33:33 <Ampera> Halcyon, if my family decided to suddenly stop shopping at large chains, we'd go hungry.
16:33:33 <Halcyon> I agree
16:33:45 <Halcyon> Well you can't have it both ways
16:33:54 <Halcyon> You can't complain about a company but then give them your money
16:33:57 <Ampera> There is nigh to no such thing as a mom and pop groccery store, and that's going to stay that way because it's too late to kick them out.
16:34:08 <Ampera> You complain about the NBN all the time, why do you pay them?
16:34:18 <Ampera> You intend to replace them, but that's because you have an alternative now
16:34:28 <Halcyon> Because LTE plans don't have a large enough data limit yet, so I make do.
16:34:31 <Ampera> but it's a slow and unreliable service you personally disagree with that you had paid money to out of a necessity.
16:34:41 <Ampera> If you're so against the NBN, why are you paying money to them?
16:34:51 <Halcyon> I have to
16:34:54 <Halcyon> They have the monopoly
16:34:56 <Ampera> You don't have the right to complain about a service because you use it though.
16:35:02 <Ampera> Even if they have the monopoly, according to your logic.
16:35:22 <Ampera> The point here is that groccery chains have the monopoly. There aren't any mom and pop shops to go to.
16:35:29 <Halcyon> There is a difference between having a choice of 2, 3, 4 or more suppliers and being backed into a corner.
16:35:46 <Halcyon> I guess its different here
16:35:50 <Ampera> The issue is that none of the suppliers are little guys. They are massive honking conglomerates.
16:35:53 <Halcyon> Small stores still tend to thrive
16:36:05 <Ampera> There are 4 or even more supermarket chains around, the issue is that they are /chains/
16:36:10 <Halcyon> My ISP is actually one of the smaller ones
16:36:21 <Halcyon> They offer the best service and contention ratios
16:36:34 <Halcyon> I can pick up the phone and not be connected to India or Singapore
16:36:48 <Ampera> Yes, but I'm not talking about ISPs, there are still little people around, even in groccery.
16:36:58 <Halcyon> Yes, and I shop local
16:37:02 <Ampera> I think there is one mom and pop store maybe 10 or so miles away.
16:37:21 <Halcyon> 95% of my groceries come from independently owned stores and it costs me a little more.
16:37:25 <Ampera> but they are a very small store, and don't have a lot. They are also really far away.
16:37:32 <Halcyon> There is a Woolworths and Coles about 10 minute drive from here
16:37:38 <Ampera> We couldn't do that if we wanted to, which is why I said, this is an issue in the US.
16:37:53 <Ampera> but regardless, I'm trying to make an analogy here.
16:37:56 <Halcyon> (and Aldi)
16:38:05 <Halcyon> No I get it, but the solution isn't an easy one
16:38:11 <Ampera> YouTube isn't at the point where corporations have taken over. Little guys are still in business, and still the majority.
16:38:21 <Halcyon> I think Dave shouldn't use YouTube at all
16:38:23 <Ampera> The solution is to vote with your views, vote with your wallets.
16:38:26 <Halcyon> That's my personal opinion
16:38:32 <Ampera> That's not an option, Halcyon.
16:38:35 <Halcyon> Why not?
16:38:39 <Halcyon> Of course it is
16:38:43 <Ampera> People say that all the time, but without YouTube Dave would go out of business in a couple months.
16:38:48 <Ampera> I would garuntee it.
16:39:06 <Halcyon> If he uploaded his videos to Vimeo or even to his own web host, I'd watch them there.,
16:39:13 <Halcyon> Same with all the other YouTubers I follow
16:39:15 <Ampera> Yes, but would that watch pay him?
16:39:20 <Halcyon> I don't care where my feed comes from
16:39:21 <Ampera> and you might do it, but would others?
16:39:37 <Halcyon> His income from YouTube is negligible. He doesn't count on that to live.
16:39:38 <Ampera> Would he sitll get an influx of new viewers? Dave still needs to grow to survive.
16:39:51 <Ampera> Yes, but he relies on the /people/ from YouTube.
16:40:05 <Ampera> You might not mind watching it on Vimeo, Dailymotion, Twitch, etc. but others might.
16:40:06 <Halcyon> Marketing, do it the old fashioned way.
16:40:18 <Ampera> They might not want to jump to another site to look at one YouTuber
16:40:27 <Ampera> and what about people who have never even heard of the EEVBlog?
16:40:38 <Halcyon> Then he isn't marketing himself to the right places
16:40:47 <Ampera> YouTube links them to videos as a form of free advertisement, it's how you get big on YouTube by making a presence that grows itself in a way.
16:41:06 <Ampera> Without that, he wouldn't get that influx, and even though you claim marketing, that costs money.
16:41:20 <Ampera> Advertising is one of the most expensive costs a company can shell out for.
16:41:21 <Halcyon> Sure
16:41:29 <Ampera> They hire entire departments of people just to do it.
16:41:49 <Halcyon> On a large scale, yes that's correct
16:41:54 <Halcyon> Dave is essentially a 2-man band
16:41:58 <Ampera> On a small scale too, Halcyon.
16:42:05 <Ampera> Who is he going to market to for free/low cost?
16:42:11 <Ampera> AdWords isn't free, it isn't even cheap.
16:42:20 <Ampera> Is he going to take out an ad in the local papers?
16:42:23 <Halcyon> *shrug* I'm not a content creator
16:42:32 <Halcyon> But word of mouth is everything
16:42:34 <Ampera> So your solution is to do something, but to not suggest how to implement it.
16:42:38 <Halcyon> I'm no saying he pull the pin tomorrow
16:42:42 <Halcyon> It needs to be a gradual shift
16:42:48 <Ampera> How do you get people to distribute your content in word of mouth?
16:42:58 <Ampera> Ahh, the famous cop-out, if you do it slowly it will probably work better.
16:43:07 <Halcyon> How is that a cop-out ?
16:43:10 <Halcyon> That's being smart
16:43:17 <Ampera> What difference is being slow about it going to make?
16:43:25 <Halcyon> People hate change
16:43:27 <Ampera> At the end of the day, you are going to a smaller platform that can't support you.
16:43:30 <Halcyon> So make the change gradual
16:43:53 <Halcyon> Offer incentives for people to switch over
16:44:05 <Ampera> So now we have to pay/compensate people to watch his content?
16:44:06 <Halcyon> For example, he could release a video on his own site a week earlier than on YouTube
16:44:16 <Halcyon> What!? No
16:44:35 <Ampera> How does that get people to go watch his content though?
16:44:48 <Halcyon> People naturally want to see the newest video
16:44:48 <Ampera> He's still going to have to be on YouTube to get his content out there.
16:44:55 <Halcyon> People won't wait for Youtube
16:44:56 <Ampera> Yes, but how will they know about the EEVBlog?
16:45:22 <Ampera> Websites don't appear on YouTube's reccomended list, nor people's home feeds.
16:45:26 <Halcyon> Ampera, I'm making suggestions rather than just offering criticism. I'm sure you're creative enough to think about ways to get the word out.
16:45:45 <Ampera> I'm trying to make a point about YouTube.
16:45:49 <Halcyon> As I said, Dave does not rely on Youtube for income
16:46:00 <Ampera> You could go to other sites, or you could make a service better by the old method of voting with your wallet.
16:46:17 <Ampera> If you just don't /watch/ the big guys, and put attention into small people like PewDiePie, that speaks.
16:46:28 <Ampera> 12+ million dislikes on a rewind nobody wanted says something.
16:46:41 <Ampera> The perpetual bad words people mouth about YouTube helps too.
16:46:57 <Ampera> Bashing corporations like TSeries into the ground until they shatter helps.
16:47:01 <Halcyon> Which people have, Dave receives over $4000 a month JUST from his Patreon subscribers.
16:47:12 <Halcyon> That's not taking into consideration all his other sources of income
16:47:42 <Ampera> We can argue about the EEVBlog all we want, it's not even the scope of my argument.
16:47:55 <Halcyon> I'm not arguing at all
16:47:59 <Halcyon> I'm just offering my view
16:48:27 <Ampera> Whatever then.
16:48:28 <Halcyon> Dave isn't YouTube's customer, he is the product
16:48:43 <Halcyon> If you think as a social media user, you're the customer, you're mistaken
16:48:54 <Ampera> I never said he was the customer.
16:49:02 <Halcyon> I know, but that speaks volumes
16:49:12 <Ampera> He's most definitely the product, but the issue is if nobody wants to buy your product, you won't keep pushing it.
16:49:17 <Ampera> That's what we're trying to do here.
16:49:24 <Ampera> That's why subscribe to pewdiepie is important.
16:49:36 <Halcyon> People want DAVES product but they are getting sick of YouTube's nonsense.
16:49:37 <Ampera> We want his content, and the small people like him, not the content of big corporations.
16:49:43 <Halcyon> So take the product elsewhere
16:49:53 <Ampera> He can do that, but YouTube is still here for a reason.
16:49:59 <Ampera> If it were that simple, people would have all done it.
16:50:00 <Halcyon> Yes, to make money
16:50:20 <Ampera> Halcyon, why hasn't everyone switched to independent or seperate platforms?
16:50:39 <Halcyon> You
16:50:42 <Halcyon> You'd have to ask them
16:50:44 <Halcyon> I have no idea
16:50:52 <Halcyon> Laziness? Poor planning?
16:50:53 <Ampera> If this is so grand and easy, why hasn't it been the go-to resposne to getting your channel's kneecaps shattered by the 2x4 of channel takedowns and demonetization
16:50:59 <Ampera> The entire fucking platform?
16:51:02 <Ampera> I find that hard to believe.
16:51:33 <Ampera> It's almost like YouTube has a reason to exist for people trying to make a living on it.
16:51:42 <Ampera> One that has not yet been replicated by another platform.
16:51:49 <Ampera> It's almost like there was a reason vidme failed.
16:52:22 <Halcyon> Then what do you suggest Ampera?
16:52:32 <Ampera> Exactly what we are doing.
16:52:34 <Halcyon> If changing providers isn't the option, what then?
16:52:41 <Ampera> YouTube is a platform we want, nay need.
16:52:51 <Halcyon> YouTube pisses me off
16:52:57 <Ampera> However it has people on it that we do not like, who represent what's wrong with the platform.
16:53:02 <Halcyon> I wish more people would use Vimeo or AWS etc...
16:53:14 <Ampera> YouTube is very much a marketplace, one selling products.
16:53:45 <Ampera> However, just like if nobody buys a certain type of bread in a supermarket, if we make noise and get people to stop watching channels like TSeries, we might be able to make some waves.
16:54:42 <Ampera> It's the reason why people like dave laughing at subscribe to pewdiepie memes is not a bad thing.
16:54:54 <Halcyon> Well even as an experiment, content producers could start uploading their content elsewhere simultaneously.
16:55:02 <Ampera> PewDiePie is sort of like the individual creator's iron horse.
16:55:11 <Ampera> How do you get people together to do that?
16:55:15 <Ampera> How do they get paid in the mean time?
16:55:36 <Ampera> My previous arguments of even if they don't gain money from adsense, the get money from the advertisement YouTube offers effectively for free.
16:55:53 <Halcyon> If you are relying on a single, unreliable source of income that could change tomorrow at the drop of a hat, you're doing it wrong.
16:56:34 <Ampera> People do diversify their oncome. Patreon (and even the rejection of Patreon as of current due to their bullshit, but that's another debate), paypal, merchandising.
16:56:49 <Halcyon> Yup
16:56:52 <Ampera> The issue is that YouTube is the only viable platform available to get people to actually know about that.
16:57:13 <Ampera> You can put the best and most amazing content on your own website, or even Vimeo, but if nobody uses Vimeo, and if nobody knows about your own site, what are you going to do?
16:57:56 <Halcyon> You seem to just be caving into Youtube and accepting that they are THE platform and always will be
16:58:01 <Halcyon> I disagree with that
16:58:31 <Ampera> I am saying until there is a platform that even /offers/ a viable campaign similar to AdSense, or people get together in a sort of online union, we need to make do with the platform we have.
16:59:29 <Halcyon> But it seems as though Dave is uploading to Vimeo too
16:59:35 <Halcyon> I might just watch him there
16:59:38 <Ampera> there you go.
16:59:53 <Halcyon> And you can even download his videos
16:59:54 <Halcyon> Nice
17:00:01 <Ampera> However, my point is even emboldened by that. He's on Vimeo, presumably he's advertised that fact somewhere, but what has that done?
17:00:16 <Halcyon> It gives his customers a choice
17:00:19 <Ampera> Nobody wants to watch it, besides Vimeo regulars and the small handful of people like you.
17:00:34 <Halcyon> Well, I'm putting my "money" where my mouth is
17:00:36 <Halcyon> Vimeo it is
17:00:41 <Halcyon> Hopefully others will follow suit
17:01:27 <Ampera> I will when A. Vimeo stops charging for video uploads, B. Vimeo introduces an advertising system similar to YouTubes (if they have already done this, idk, check this off), C. We form a union to decide that Vimeo is /the/ platform we all need to be on now.
17:01:48 <Ampera> What makes YouTube so great is its unity among creators. It's the one stop shop for all of your online video needs.
17:02:07 <Halcyon> Then keep using it then
17:02:20 <Halcyon> But you play by their rules
17:02:21 <Ampera> What do you think I'm doing?
17:02:40 <Ampera> There are ways to get a corporation to do things.
17:03:01 <Ampera> Boycotts, protests, bad PR. It's all what subscribe to pewdiepie is about.
18:43:34 Join: hsn93 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
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19:31:43 Join: xDR1TeK ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
20:33:06 <hsn93> guys
20:36:26 <Ampera> yes
20:38:37 Join: hsn ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
20:39:10 <hsn> oh i will just ask in beginner forums .. :D
20:39:31 <hsn> thought its better to put it there for future reference ..
20:41:39 Quit: hsn93 ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
20:44:29 <Ampera> you didn't even ask us a question...
21:14:21 <ThunderSqueak> o.o
21:14:32 <ThunderSqueak> someone assumed averyone is a guy ; ;
21:14:36 <ThunderSqueak> typical
21:14:37 <ThunderSqueak> XD
21:43:35 Quit: steve30 ([email protected]) Quit: <Baljem> steve30: by the way, I had the most bizarre dream the other day that someone came in here and seriously flipped their shit over your quit message and why aren't the ops /doing/ something about it
21:48:15 Join: steve30 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
21:48:25 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o steve30
22:03:35 <Ampera> I know it's a joke, but I just realized there are people who would say that and be dead serious.
22:09:25 <ThunderSqueak> Ampera, oh... my statement?
22:09:47 <Ampera> If you intend to tell me that wasn't a joke, I'll eat my shitty ass shoes.
22:09:58 <ThunderSqueak> XD
22:10:01 <ThunderSqueak> tempting
22:10:03 <ThunderSqueak> ROFL
22:10:06 <Ampera> lol
22:10:44 <rust_collector> mornings people
22:10:58 <Ampera> how the oxide accumulation progressing?
22:11:24 * ThunderSqueak is drunk still.
22:11:32 * ThunderSqueak shrugs.
22:11:36 <rust_collector> oh, it is a good season for that.
22:11:45 <ThunderSqueak> had 3 pints of wine today O.o
22:11:45 <Ampera> being drunk or collecting rust?
22:11:50 <rust_collector> yes
22:11:54 <Ampera> lol
22:12:13 <Ampera> I personally dislike alchohol. My mom has a problem with it, and it's something I don't want in my life.
22:12:31 <Ampera> I have enough problems without having to add to them.
22:12:35 <ThunderSqueak> ah, I never get "shit faced drunk"
22:13:06 <ThunderSqueak> IE, learned long ago... that when drinking, never get so drunk that you forget to let the pizza to cool down before you start eating it
22:13:18 <rust_collector> that is fine. I drink maybe 3 times each year. I just don't have time for it.
22:13:19 <ThunderSqueak> <.<;;
22:13:48 <ThunderSqueak> I thought about going and flying my ship in elite dangerous while drinking, but decided against it
22:13:55 <ThunderSqueak> dont drink and fly
22:14:05 <rust_collector> I have a test. when I touch my nose, and it feels sort of numb, I have to slow down
22:14:39 <ThunderSqueak> same, only lips <.<
22:14:46 <ThunderSqueak> I guess take that as you will
22:14:54 <rust_collector> hah
22:15:27 <Ampera> what do I do when I touch myself and I don't feel anything?
22:15:40 <ThunderSqueak> then your night wont be as fun later?
22:15:54 <Ampera> wha
22:16:02 <rust_collector> at least you don't have to sit on your hand...
22:16:33 <Ampera> y'all are weird people, but I like all'y'all
22:18:13 <rust_collector> well, as I guessed on sunday... boss called this morning.
22:18:17 <ThunderSqueak> YAY :D
22:18:28 <rust_collector> So I am going to work today, for just a few hours
22:18:31 <ThunderSqueak> that I am liked, not that your boss called
22:18:41 <ThunderSqueak> <.<
22:18:54 <rust_collector> and I am doing 2 shifts at the same time tomorrow, and friday
22:19:17 <rust_collector> will be interesting
22:19:18 <ThunderSqueak> 2 at the same time O.O
22:19:29 <rust_collector> yeah, it is complicated, lol
22:19:41 <ThunderSqueak> kinky ?
22:19:42 <ThunderSqueak> o.o
22:20:01 * ThunderSqueak finds new respect for rust_collector
22:20:49 <ThunderSqueak> the christmas day btc price chart looks like someone manipulated it to give everyone the middle finger
22:25:33 <ThunderSqueak> https://twitter.com/TheTweetOfGod/status/1077618113229729793
22:27:46 <rust_collector> that god looks like someone I know...
22:27:51 <rust_collector> "know"
22:28:09 <rust_collector> but who was that again.....
22:29:53 <rust_collector> anyway. I am reading about the building in sydney that is cracking up. I like those stories.
22:33:07 <ThunderSqueak> watching the sabrina netflix series... so far I have learned that to be a witch, all you need to do is sign a book and then be a catholic, only use satan and lucifer in every prayer instead of lord and god.... oh and give random crowley quotes
22:35:14 <ThunderSqueak> oh and that a friend of mine who is very religous called me and told me about how acurite this show he was watching is, and that it was pure evil and how I shouldnt watch it (which is why I am now)... it actually makes me sad he things all the stuff in this show is an accurate representation of witchcraft and satanism
22:35:34 <ThunderSqueak> for what it is worth, I am an athiest <.<
22:36:02 <ThunderSqueak> and also, cannot seem to spell accurate <.<;;
22:38:07 <rust_collector> all the versions of "satanism" it is just as confusing as the rest of both religions and views
22:38:57 <ThunderSqueak> rust_collector, oh I am aware
22:39:38 <ThunderSqueak> I just find it funny and sad that my friend beleives that this show is a real representation of life
22:40:47 <Ampera> Piss him off and start practicing some of those things.
22:41:27 <rust_collector> well, some times I almost wish I could religion. But I just can not.
22:41:51 <Ampera> Why? Religion is stupid. *tips fedora*
22:41:53 <Ampera> m'lady
22:41:58 <ThunderSqueak> I keep considering starting to say things like "oh for the sake of lucifer" and "praise satan" <.<
22:42:18 <Ampera> Fukin do it, and report back.
22:43:50 <rust_collector> Ampera: yea, it makes little sense to me, but when you see how many people find something that helps them in it...
22:43:54 <ThunderSqueak> and telling him "oh, well... I learned it from the show you refered me too"
22:45:18 <rust_collector> ok, I better get going. I have to fix the wifemobile, and get ready for work
22:45:24 <Ampera> ciao
22:45:30 <ThunderSqueak> to the wifemobile!
22:45:54 <rust_collector> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbAjHSFvigA
22:46:58 <ThunderSqueak> I have a copy of satanic panic
22:47:03 <ThunderSqueak> I should take that over there
22:47:21 <Ampera> I'm the sort of person who would burn a bible for a joke.
22:47:38 <Ampera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v_9Rp86m80
22:47:41 <Ampera> like this
22:47:49 * ThunderSqueak has a shawshank version of the bible witha cuttout or a small rock hammer
22:48:05 <xDR1TeK> confrontation for spite is not a sign of intelligence
22:48:31 <Ampera> If making a joke makes me stupid in the eyes of others, so be it.
22:48:51 <xDR1TeK> being a fool is not being funny
22:48:56 <rust_collector> as long as it is one of the newer cheap bibles...
22:49:08 <xDR1TeK> i'm a nonbeliever
22:49:16 * ThunderSqueak isnt looking for confrontation, just is surprised that her friend, who is a college educated mechanical engineer, would think the stuff in this show is real... and wants to know if he is on some sort of drug and if so, why is he not sharing
22:49:26 <xDR1TeK> but i wouldn't jump out tramping over other peoples belief system
22:49:50 <Ampera> People do it to mine on a regular basis.
22:50:10 <xDR1TeK> being prudent is your stance to wait and see them through
22:50:18 <xDR1TeK> i mean
22:50:24 <ThunderSqueak> rust_collector, it is... it was a gift from someone because they found out that is one of my favorite movies
22:50:29 <xDR1TeK> i am an athiest, i look at other athiests and say wtf
22:50:45 <Ampera> I am an individual. If I find something funny, I find it funny.
22:50:51 <xDR1TeK> they are like that for all the wrong reasons
22:51:15 * Ampera shrugs
22:51:17 <ThunderSqueak> but this is like watching buffy the vampire slayer and basing your beleif system around it
22:51:19 <xDR1TeK> it is ok
22:51:21 <ThunderSqueak> <.<;;
22:51:28 <ThunderSqueak> or... worse... twilight
22:51:36 <Ampera> or even worse, harry potter
22:51:48 <ThunderSqueak> if it were H.G. Wells, I could understand...
22:51:49 <Ampera> those twats need to read another fucking book.
22:52:02 <xDR1TeK> history books first
22:52:34 <xDR1TeK> preferably not written by the same bunch
22:52:38 <Ampera> I think the beliefs of religious people are for the large part stupid, and just like anybody who thinks something I think is stupid, I don't mind making fun of them.
22:53:06 <xDR1TeK> i understand, you find that funny, but you don't have to do that in their face
22:53:09 <Ampera> It's not specifically about religion, I just like making fun of people.
22:53:37 <Ampera> Don't get me wrong, xDR1TeK, I wouldn't thrown a burning bible into a church, besides for the reasons of fire risk.
22:53:46 <xDR1TeK> LOL
22:53:50 <xDR1TeK> overkill
22:53:51 <xDR1TeK> yeh
22:53:53 <xDR1TeK> i get u
22:53:54 <Ampera> I think people should have the right to be as stupid as they want.
22:54:10 <Ampera> However if it's a friend, or someone being particularly annoying (or both), I'll make fun of them.
22:54:21 <xDR1TeK> and we as tolerant people we give them their stupid space
22:54:30 <xDR1TeK> you don't need religion to be a nice person
22:54:44 <Ampera> God knows how many dead serious religious debates I've been in for me to consider myself reasonable in the face of a serious debate.
22:55:10 <Ampera> Furthermore to that, xDR1TeK, I think religion is a more trouble than it's worth thing.
22:55:32 <ThunderSqueak> xDR1TeK, I once had someone ask me "if you don't beleive in god, what keeps you to a moral code?"
22:55:33 <xDR1TeK> i agree
22:55:51 <Ampera> Either way, as I've said, I've had enough religious debates, even in my short time, I don't feel like having another one right now.
22:56:01 <xDR1TeK> We as humans, made the human moral code
22:56:05 <ThunderSqueak> yes
22:56:06 <xDR1TeK> because we can
22:56:19 <PartsHanger4148> Ampera: Alright. Gun debate. Now. Old chan. Matcat. NAO.
22:56:31 <ThunderSqueak> I said "well, because I choose to follow one?, I dont need fear to coerce me to be moral"
22:56:49 <Ampera> I've had enough of those, and especially enough with MatCat.
22:56:59 <Ampera> I fucking hate MatCat, and don't like talking to him.
22:57:27 <ThunderSqueak> but that isnt waht the channel statistics show ; ; (jk)
22:57:32 <PartsHanger4148> He's a fucking nutjob. >_>
22:58:03 <Ampera> I try to see the best in people, and don't like outright not talking to someone, and when in the same room with someone I don't particularly like, I may talk to them as well
22:58:11 <Ampera> but I need to stop doing that with MatCat.
22:58:29 <Ampera> I thought I was a cancerous asshole, but he tips the fucking top of the twat cake
22:58:45 <PartsHanger4148> ...X3
22:59:20 * ThunderSqueak suddenly gets the urge to google search twatcake but decides it would be better not too.
23:02:57 <xDR1TeK> sometimes when i engage others with a faith related debate, i would feel sour afterwards.
23:03:13 <xDR1TeK> I decided to leave people their ignorance and them to leave me mine.
23:03:28 <xDR1TeK> but in the many many many long research i have done. I just find it difficult to quote and link and reference everything i went through.
23:03:50 <xDR1TeK> Especially because i relied on translations from greek, syriac, aramaic, arabic, latin, hebrew, by other people.
23:04:16 <xDR1TeK> If i need to do the work myself which is out of the question. I am glad to sustain myself with the results thus far made by others.
23:08:30 <xDR1TeK> In the 12,000 years of history, one trend has always been there. Mankind always desired to be the authority on something, be it rule or wisdom, they needed to be that authority by devine intervention. Hence, in the 12 millenias mankind evolved into subjugation by being surfs. Gods came along to occupy the same cranial mass as the people themselves, Hence it became too crowded for reflection
23:08:30 <xDR1TeK> and individuality. People just want to be rid of the complexity of being individual.
23:09:15 <xDR1TeK> this is my summary
23:25:50 <ThunderSqueak> o.o
23:38:03 <rust_collector> If you replace surfs with smurfs, I would enjoy reading that much more
23:46:35 Join: hsn93 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
23:49:07 Quit: hsn ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
23:52:18 <ThunderSqueak> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfgtSGmlAWI
23:58:18 Quit: hsn93 ([email protected]) EOF from client
23:58:28 Join: hsn ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
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