// #eevblog — 2018-12-13
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00:19:44 Join: mattinx ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
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00:52:28 <mattinx> morning
01:12:34 <aram> coppice_: it's niche, but not dead yet. I have the latest SPARC next to me right now.
01:13:33 <aram> at least it's alive enough to keep me employed, I guess.
02:00:41 <IoTPanic> Morning @mattinx
02:00:56 <IoTPanic> @aram what do you do?
02:02:01 <aram> IoTPanic: I write compilers. Most recently for arm64 and sparc64.
02:02:16 <IoTPanic> Huh, interesting
02:02:26 <IoTPanic> Who still uses SPARC?
02:02:56 <aram> apart from embedded stuff, banks and telcos and bloomberg.
02:03:35 <aram> there's still a lot of solaris/sparc only software used by telcos.
02:03:41 <IoTPanic> As in legacy equipment ?
02:04:12 <aram> not so much legacy and just vendor lock-in.
02:04:47 <IoTPanic> Got it. Do they find a large advantage to SPARC or is it just what they've always used and will for a long time?
02:14:16 <aram> I think the latter
02:14:21 <aram> personally for me, I like it for very different reasons.
02:14:22 <aram> it's a very clean system, both at the ISA level and at a practical level.
02:14:22 <aram> most systems use iLOMs written in Java on some ancient and not updated Linux kernel, or unsecure IPMI.
02:14:27 <aram> on sparc, you just access the LOM system through ssh. you can even expose it on the internet.
02:14:30 <aram> and in the LOM you have FORTH, so you can easily do kernel debugging without any extra tools.
02:14:33 <aram> also virtualisation is built into the firmware and it's pretty clean. that's why for example OpenBSD can do virtualization on sparc.
02:14:36 <aram> higher end systems do a kind of "virtualization" where they partition a system into smaller systems using hardware not software.
02:14:39 <aram> some people like that because of security benefits, if you believe hardware is less likely to have bugs than software (though they do claim the physical partitions are electrically isolated between them, not sure how that makes any sense, it might be just marketing speak).
02:15:19 <aram> never used one of those big systems though
02:54:28 <IoTPanic> So there is hardware level virtualization that has direct access to a networking interface without the need for host based networking? That neat
03:00:08 <coppice_> aram: is there any SPARC silicon still in development? I think even Fujitsu have given up
03:00:55 <coppice_> aram: I wonder how Oracle feel about their purchase of Sun these days?
03:01:23 <aram> coppice_: this was last year, but then I met the sparc team, and they were still developing it. I can't say what oracle has done in the past year though.
03:01:55 <aram> well, inside oracle there are/were these power plays between oracle and sun people...
03:01:58 <aram> as you can expect
03:02:15 <coppice_> aram: their attempts at serious innovation, like Rock, seem to have all bombed
03:04:04 <aram> the chip I have now, S7-2 finally has competitive single threaded performance (just raw performance, not performance/price)
03:04:07 <aram> the previous decade+ was plagues with these chips that had good MT performance but piss poor single threaded perf.
03:04:10 <aram> this one is finally as good as any top-end Xeon.
03:04:14 <aram> of course it all falls down when you consider price
03:08:53 <aram> https://i.imgur.com/vP6nVy5.jpg
03:09:02 <aram> ultra ghetto setup here, since I need close local access
03:09:12 <aram> S7-2 with 512 GB RAM :D
03:09:39 <aram> serial #37
03:10:30 Quit: mattinx ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
03:10:34 <coppice_> probably the last of the production run
03:10:44 <aram> haha
03:11:39 <coppice_> its shocking when you find how small the production runs of some equipment really are
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03:34:15 <DHess_US> http://knuckledraggin.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/damned-verifications-WISCO.jpg
03:52:38 <IoTPanic> I think Google may have a strong disagreement XD
03:55:23 <BurtyB> think that might have a little more grunt vs my ultra 1 :(
03:56:35 <DHess_US> You can dig up discussions about what made SPARC so difficult to scale up. One really bad feature was register windows.
03:57:08 <DHess_US> A lot of those types of things are great when you only have a low performance implementation but become a problem at higher performance.
03:58:33 <DHess_US> The RISC guys all seemed to have used large register sets and load/store designs but then stuck a bunch of cruft on which defeated the purpose of RISC.
04:04:57 <DHess_US> I downclocked the CPU and memory on my Windows 10 test system and that seems to have fixed the watchdog crash.
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05:30:41 <aram> DHess_US: sparc is moving away from register windows.
05:30:42 <aram> the embedded CPUs don't have register windows anymore, and the system ABI is changing so that it doesn't use register windows anymore, regardless whether it has them or not.
05:31:12 <aram> register windows complicate the life of non-C compilers tremendously.
05:33:34 <aram> they've been a terrible idea, along with delay slots
05:36:50 <IoTPanic> I have an SPI device that can't be talked to, yet is wired correctly. I have been slaming my head on this for days and Im about to jump out the nearest free window
05:37:10 <IoTPanic> Screaming something about hombre
05:37:27 <Ampera> I'm sorry IoTPanic, but windows is all out of memory
05:37:39 <IoTPanic> Debian embedded
05:38:27 <IoTPanic> Using 42.8MB/997MB thank you very much
05:38:56 <IoTPanic> I did not mean to put an h in front of top, what is this colored mess XD
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06:04:47 <DHess_US> aram, I suppose that does wonders for backwards compatability. It is too bad they didn't do that to start with.
06:05:39 <DHess_US> There is a list of terrible ideas in processors over on RWT somewhere from a few years ago. Linus is a real terror on the subject but at least he would know.
06:06:14 <DHess_US> Weak memory ordering, register windows, branch delay slots. 68K had double indirect addressing.
06:06:29 <DHess_US> Software TLB and cache fills
06:07:47 <DHess_US> Let's see, what else ...
06:08:00 <Ampera> You're debian very annoying, IoTPanic
06:09:00 <DHess_US> Lack of support for small data sizes. Lack of unaligned access.
06:10:09 <Halcyon> My legs hurt :(
06:11:28 <aram> DHess_US: actually, old code runs just fine on sparc without register windows, albeit at reduced performance. the specification allowed for any number of windows in the implementation, including one, and the system ABI can cope with it.
06:13:35 <DHess_US> That gets into the same problem that software page table walkers get into and why they are a bad idea.
06:14:29 <IoTPanic> What @Ampera. And whys that @Halcyon? Go skiing or somethin? XD
06:14:40 <Halcyon> Did squats yesterday
06:15:03 <Halcyon> Also, morning all
06:15:12 * Halcyon grumbles because he has to get ready for work
06:19:42 <Ampera> Hi Hal
06:19:44 <Ampera> cyon
06:19:53 <Halcyon> I actually have a friend who's first name is Hal
06:20:43 <Halcyon> Anyway best go do my hair then go. :(
06:20:50 <Halcyon> Talk later
06:29:40 <damian> morning friends
06:34:25 <Ampera> why won't you say morning to me, damian?
06:47:55 <IoTPanic> SpaceX just had a water landing. Elon is crying, rocking back and forth in a Tesla locker
06:48:06 <IoTPanic> Probably
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07:17:07 <coppice_> IoTPanic: a second water landing?
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07:22:58 <IoTPanic> Yeah
07:22:59 <IoTPanic> Was watching live
07:24:33 <IoTPanic> God DAMN it, I think I figured out why my SPI device wont work
07:25:34 <IoTPanic> Helps to not have a 600mA regulator in front of a radio that consumes 1.5A. To be fair, this random guy on the internet told me it's consumption was 500mA.
07:26:18 <IoTPanic> Im surprised the regulator could even supply 1.3A before cutting out, and since it was an LDO I was getting the switching effect so my LED was flashing.... all makes fucking sense now and im pissed
07:26:45 <IoTPanic> Time to hook the SBC back up
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09:51:11 <damian> we aren't friends Ampera??
09:51:24 <Ampera> lol
09:51:45 <Ampera> that's a question I should be asking you
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10:03:18 <damian> i think we're friends enough!
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11:00:32 * T3sl4 hugs Ampera
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12:02:49 * Ampera hugs T3sl4 back
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12:55:19 <DHess_US> https://mangadex.org/data/b19a2eb0bd66a019f0ff32f9f7e25bd0/x3.png
12:55:41 <DHess_US> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuKBMrtX4AEMHwO.png
13:42:14 <IoTPanic> Well, I think you just solved a lot of missing bad children cases
13:43:01 <IoTPanic> Specifically bad ones. When the police come and answer they always ask the parents what their list history is
14:10:33 <IoTPanic> Oooh, icelake CPUs
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14:31:56 <Ampera> Ahh, Windows, you piss me off.
14:32:34 <Ampera> So I have some file on an FTP server I need to backup and replace, included within these are two different sets of files, with the same names, just with a different case.
14:32:54 <Ampera> and on Linux, this wouldn't be a problem, but on Windows, I can't, even with filezilla, handle those files.
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14:35:26 <Ampera> Crazor_, do you think you could manage to stabilize your connection? Maybe a ZNC of some sort?
14:35:53 <Ampera> It's not quite at the level of punishable, but it would be appreciated if you could do something.
14:37:30 <IoTPanic> Get IRCCloud, and I feel you @Ampera. I was just watching a video about windows refund day and it was making feel happiness
14:37:48 <Ampera> that sounds interesting, link me
14:38:11 <IoTPanic> It is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j9j-Ywjmbk
14:38:31 <IoTPanic> "Windows Refund Day - When Linux Users Demanded Their Money Back"
14:43:11 <steve30> my cellphone keeps dying after being on for about a minute. Maybe I'll let the battery charge.
14:46:12 <steve30> Do people still claim Windows refunds?
14:51:13 <DHess_US> Yea, Windows isn't case sensitive. You can save case in file names but it is not used.
14:51:44 <DHess_US> steve30, yes, and it gets even better.
14:52:42 <DHess_US> In the nations where Microsoft cannot stop reselling unused Windows licenses, they put the keys up for sale. So in the US, we buy unused keys from other nations for like $20
14:53:11 <DHess_US> So even if you cannot get a refund, you can still sell the key to someone else.
15:19:07 <IoTPanic> Well, at that time it was a EULA agreement that you could @steve30
15:19:24 <IoTPanic> The issue was you couldnt buy a computer without windows during 98 times
15:19:54 <IoTPanic> So you were always forced to pay extra. And linux users used a EULA technicality to protest and raise awareness
15:20:41 <IoTPanic> Well, it said right at the end you could refund windows as long as you declined the EULA during first boot. No technicality
15:36:16 <DHess_US> But to get Microsoft to pay, they had to have a class action lawsuit and then Microsoft bought changes in the laws where needed to prevent that from happening again.
15:37:33 <DHess_US> So insetad now, we have this: https://www.kinguin.net/category/19429/windows-10-professional-oem-key/
15:37:51 <DHess_US> There are a bunch of places that resell keys.
15:53:03 <Ampera> Yeah, I get the annoyance for that, but even in the 90's you could just build your own PC from parts.
15:53:38 <Ampera> I can't say much about it for the 90's, but even today, it's still cheaper, nicer, and doesn't come shipped with software you don't want.
15:56:09 <DHess_US> Oh, for sure. With preloaded systems, I usually wiped and installed a pirated Windows without all the trash.
16:45:46 <Ampera> Guys, YouTube Rewind 2018 is the most disliked video on the platform, and of all time
16:45:52 <Ampera> with 9.96 million dislikes and counting
16:47:20 <steve30> What's it about?
16:48:03 <Ampera> YouTube Rewind is an annual recap sort of music video kinda thing that is supposed to contain the best moments and trends of the previous year.
16:48:42 <Ampera> However this year, it was so cringy, so out of touch, and just a blaring middle finger piss in the collective cornflakes of its audience it has rightfully become the most hated video in YouTube's history.
16:49:46 <steve30> got a link?
16:52:58 <Ampera> youtube search youtube rewind 2018
18:08:59 Topic Is: Official IRC channel of the EEVBlog - www.eevblog.com - Stats: www.irc-stats.org/austnet/eevblog
18:08:59 Set By: (Ampera) on: Tue Dec 11 20:05:15 2018
19:10:03 <T3sl4> DHess_US: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuKBMrtX4AEMHwO.png <-- Reindeer Games?
19:10:44 Quit: Halcyon ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
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19:46:07 <Halcyon> YAY! Got power back :D
19:46:46 * steve30 purrs at Halcyon
19:46:52 * Halcyon strokes Steve
19:47:04 <Halcyon> Oh Steve, was going to show you something yesterday...
19:47:11 <steve30> :)
19:48:34 <Halcyon> I don't normally like muscley guys, but... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGXMpWSJceQ
19:51:26 <steve30> nice
19:51:38 <steve30> I like guys with a bit of muscle :)
19:51:51 <Halcyon> Also it's obvious he's not wearing underwear :P
19:53:46 <steve30> hehe
19:54:01 <Halcyon> Anyway, thought you might appreciate
19:54:39 <steve30> There were a few cuties at the gym yesterday
19:54:59 <Halcyon> Did you get anyone's number?
19:55:14 <steve30> no
19:59:56 <Halcyon> Aw
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20:21:18 <Halcyon> Interesting quotes
20:40:59 <DogWomble> Those look like some damn interesting stars
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