// #eevblog — 2018-12-24
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00:20:05 * steve30 meows
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01:42:01 <coppice> T3sl4: Trump needs to hire El Mystico and Janet to build his wall (if you've seen the relevant Monty Sketch)
01:42:15 <coppice> Monty Python Sketch
01:51:39 * ThunderSqueak had a laugh at the electroBOOM trump parody
01:51:54 Nick: ibiza is now known as Xmas-iBiZa
01:52:09 <ThunderSqueak> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJRDclzi5Vg
02:22:47 <IoTPanic> #TrumpHasLeadPoisoningThatExplainsALot
02:23:02 <IoTPanic> There are so many things in that video that are questionable
02:23:21 <ThunderSqueak> lol
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03:18:01 <IRCStats> New stats available for #EEVblog! See the #EEVblog stats: http://www.irc-stats.org/austnet/eevblog
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05:52:31 <RandomHandle123> Yo
05:53:14 <RandomHandle123> Anyone have any thoughts on Siglent scopes? Low end
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06:05:56 <DHess_US> I have some thoughts on Siglent as a company.
06:06:55 <mrpackhead> harder to hack than rigol
06:09:16 <DHess_US> Ifyou have no other choice then I'm not sure there is any significant difference between Siglent and Rigol. If I had a choice, then R&S seems like a better company.
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08:04:41 <IoTPanic> Bye. Where's that beatles song?
08:04:44 <IoTPanic> Hello goodbye
08:05:39 <rust_collector> you say stop
08:15:05 <rust_collector> ...
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08:26:33 <IoTPanic> Lol, yep
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09:26:21 <seaner> good morning !
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09:42:04 <T3sl4> there we go, pie crust is made
09:42:35 <T3sl4> the pumpkin pie baking shall commence later this evening....or this morning, technically :P
09:43:36 <rust_collector> I need pics of that
09:45:54 <IoTPanic> Pics or it never happened
09:46:02 <rust_collector> exactly
09:48:03 <T3sl4> well, the dough isn't very exciting, it's a blob of flour and butter :P
09:48:30 <rust_collector> mmhmmm
09:49:22 <T3sl4> also, time for tea
09:56:02 <IoTPanic> When it's done
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09:58:54 <rust_collector> I have never tried pumpkin pie. I have had a little bit of pumpkin, and I was not very impressed, lol. What else do you put in those things?
09:59:08 <T3sl4> eggs, cream, sugar, spices
09:59:10 <rust_collector> bacon... meat.... butter
09:59:25 <T3sl4> or you mean the crust
09:59:37 <rust_collector> nah, the...filling
09:59:45 <rust_collector> (?)
09:59:53 <rust_collector> it is filling, right?
09:59:56 <T3sl4> yeah, it's a custard
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10:00:25 <Halcyon> Morning everyone! Merry Christmas Eve
10:00:42 <IoTPanic> Not Christmas eve yet
10:00:45 <rust_collector> morning night!!! Halcyon
10:00:57 <T3sl4> https://i.imgur.com/jCMIjZm.jpg this was last year's with chocolate chip
10:01:16 <IoTPanic> Nice
10:03:00 <rust_collector> does not look bad at all
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10:07:34 <T3sl4> also had a pecan at that time: https://i.imgur.com/bmRfM93.jpg
10:08:01 <T3sl4> funny thing is it's like a pasty, the crust was so tough because i used bread flour :P
10:08:21 <rust_collector> ok, that looks more like something I would like
10:08:32 <rust_collector> I am nuts
10:08:35 <rust_collector> have nuts
10:08:43 <rust_collector> uh. you know
10:08:47 <rust_collector> like nuts
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11:22:28 <Halcyon> Mmmmm nuts
11:23:32 <rust_collector> I am looking at a tiny little ultrasonic cleaner. 2.5l I am not sure if it is worth having or not...
11:24:15 <rust_collector> I would probably only use it for old carburators and such
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11:26:41 <DHess_US> 2.5 liters isn't small.
11:27:22 <DHess_US> I have one that size. They work well on carburators but an air compressor to blow out the passeges is more important.
11:27:36 <rust_collector> well, it depends on what you want to put in it, I guess. But for carbs and stuff, it is more than enough
11:27:55 <DHess_US> 2.5 liters? A big carborator like a 4 barrel would only fit half.
11:28:11 <rust_collector> I have a reasonably good size compressor, so that is ok
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11:28:43 <DHess_US> Anyay, I just have an ancient Branson which I picked up at a garage sale and fixed.
11:29:49 <DHess_US> There are lots of good tabletop ones that size. A heater is nice but not needed if you are just going to use water which you can safely preheat.
11:30:15 <DHess_US> Try to get one where all of the exposed parts like the lid are steel if you want to use solvents like acetone.
11:31:01 <rust_collector> this one has a heater. It looks like it is all stainless. I don't really know what chemicals they usually use in them
11:31:09 <DHess_US> I have a couple of small ones which are much more powerful. They will destroy things made of soft metals like aluminum.
11:31:41 <DHess_US> Water with a little bit of dish soap is difficult to beat for cost and simplicity.
11:31:52 <rust_collector> sounds good to me
11:32:21 <rust_collector> maybe I can trick some old carters back to life again, lol
11:32:37 <DHess_US> Otherwise IPA work well. Acetone is miscible with acetone.
11:32:58 <T3sl4> or MEK, also known as acettwo
11:33:16 <DHess_US> Yea, an ultraconic cleaner will work well for that. The problem with acetone or MEK is that they are flamible so somewhat of a safety hazard.
11:33:47 <rust_collector> meh, danger is my... eeh. first name
11:33:50 <DHess_US> Honestly, gasoline is a pretty good cheap solvent.
11:34:04 <DHess_US> acetone and MEK aren't any worse than gasoline.
11:34:51 <T3sl4> or toluene, which is more gaslike
11:34:54 <DHess_US> I always laughed at the warning on carborator rebuild kits about not using gasoline as a cleaning solvent. Acetone or laquer thinner are just as bad.
11:36:29 <DHess_US> toluene is harder to find now. Toluene is miscible with IPA. 50/50 toluene and IPA makes a good flux solvent.
11:36:35 <rust_collector> talking about that... I have to look for rebuild kits... I have not even looked at the old thing for years. I have no idea if you can still find much for the old 2 barrel carters. Well, they were used for some time, so I guess
11:36:59 <DHess_US> Eh, everything is easier to find on the internet now.
11:38:15 <rust_collector> I am working on a chrysler slant6. part of me want to just get it running, part of me want to put efi on it.
11:38:46 <rust_collector> my better 3/4 just want it out of the garage, lol
11:39:13 <DHess_US> If you are up on your AutoCAD skills, check this out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hejUzvfGuY8
11:40:30 <rust_collector> Last time I "used" autocad, was around -92, I think...
11:40:56 <DHess_US> Those hobby craft cutting machines are perect for cutting perfect gaskets.
11:41:29 <DHess_US> My father has a 64 Mustang with the HP289 with the Ford TriPower.
11:41:52 <rust_collector> o god
11:42:09 <DHess_US> The air cleaner is bigger than some engines. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_p0-lFqUxYZo/STcVHMhpgRI/AAAAAAAABK0/El3GupFtJdM/s400/TriPower16.jpg
11:42:41 <rust_collector> at least they used autolite carbs, iIrc
11:43:20 <DHess_US> Once when we rebuilt the carborators which were always a problem, the new gaskets had one extra hole. The result was having to drive to the audo parts store a couple miles away and back to get replacemetns and burning 1/2 a tank of gas to do it.
11:43:32 <PartsHanger4148> So, how does I2c work with multiple devices on one bus RE: addressing?
11:43:56 <PartsHanger4148> i.e. how do you know which device is which when you go programming your shit?
11:44:04 <DHess_US> Each individual device has an address assigned in hardware like by jumpering pins.
11:44:23 <PartsHanger4148> Yeah, but you don't necessarilly know the address when you're writing the software
11:44:25 <DHess_US> Generally there aren't all that many devices on a bus.
11:44:36 <DHess_US> But you do know the address when you design the hardware.
11:44:41 <PartsHanger4148> So you have to connect each device individually to find the address to program it as a fixed value?
11:44:56 <DHess_US> The devices are programmed by jumpering pins on the IC package.
11:45:15 <PartsHanger4148> The devices I'm looking at have no way to set an address.
11:45:25 <PartsHanger4148> There's no addressing pin. There's an SDA and SCL
11:45:28 <DHess_US> Check the datasheets. They should say something.
11:47:01 <DHess_US> rust_collector, honestly the tripower was too much carborator for a 289. A four barrel would have been better.
11:47:20 <rust_collector> probably
11:47:25 <T3sl4> unless you chose devices that can be configured to a new address, in which case good luck :P
11:47:42 <DHess_US> I'm only familiar with the I2C devices where you strap the pins to assign an address.
11:47:42 <T3sl4> in that case you can try polling all addresses, but i forget how that works or if it does
11:50:42 <DHess_US> PartsHanger4148, what device?
11:51:34 <DHess_US> Ok, I found something which doesn't use pin strpping. How does this thing work ...
11:53:09 <DHess_US> Yea, it has a fixed predetermined address.
11:53:47 <DHess_US> A 7 bit address no less. It couldn't share a bus with a duplicate of itself or something else which uses the same address.
11:57:00 <T3sl4> D'oh. Address. A 7-bit address. No less.
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12:02:24 <PartsHanger4148> DHess_US: A IMU - MPU-6050, an RTC uhhh...DS1307Z, ADP5589 I2C keyboard encoder.
12:02:53 <PartsHanger4148> Might have a few more items going on there. Trying to avoid it though, coz the keyboard encoder is going to be sending a signal over a ribbon cable, maybe ~8"?
12:02:58 <PartsHanger4148> 12"?
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12:08:24 <DHess_US> The DS1307 datasheet says that the address is always 1101000
12:08:30 <DHess_US> You just have to look them up.
12:09:48 <DHess_US> The address of the ADP5589 is always 0x34
12:10:47 <PartsHanger4148> Seriously?
12:10:56 <PartsHanger4148> How do they expect you to use two devices on the bus at once then?
12:11:09 <T3sl4> have you not been reading datasheets at all, all this time? :P
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12:12:12 <PartsHanger4148> T3sl4: I haven't paid any attention to programming and I2C yet. I did a board with the ADP5589 of my own, but I'm using someone elses software largely and adapting it to my needs. So I'm using the same RTC and IMU as them to make my life (significantly) easier.
12:12:31 <PartsHanger4148> T3sl4: So, I just found the part numbers of the RTC and IMU, but I figured they'd /have to/ have unique addresses...
12:12:42 <PartsHanger4148> The RTC has an address pin it looks like. But the ADP and IMU don't.
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12:14:37 <DHess_US> <PartsHanger4148> How do they expect you to use two devices on the bus at once then?
12:14:41 <DHess_US> Use more than one bus.
12:15:26 <DHess_US> For devices where it is likely more than one device will be present, extra pins are strapped high or low to set low order address bits. So you can have 2 or 4 or 8 of the same part on the bus.
12:15:52 <PartsHanger4148> How often do you have multiple I2C busses on a single micro?
12:16:23 <DHess_US> It isn't uncommon to have multiple USARTs on a microcontroller.
12:16:45 <T3sl4> USARTs, SPIs, I2Cs, whatever, some of them are in common, some are independent
12:17:42 <DHess_US> If the design is desperate, then an external multiplexor can be used. Just multiplexing the clock line is enough.
12:18:15 <PartsHanger4148> ...I never thought of that. <_<
12:18:29 <PartsHanger4148> Mux the clock so only one or a few of the ICs will run at a given time
12:18:38 <T3sl4> can also get SPI devices, probably some channels on whatever you're using
12:18:54 <DHess_US> I2C gets troublesome if too many devices are on the open collector/drain data line anyway.
12:19:29 <T3sl4> it certainly can't be used over much of a distance; when they say inter-integrated circuit, they mean it
12:19:56 <DHess_US> Some people try and they make repeater ASICs.
12:20:02 <PartsHanger4148> I'm getting a bit naughty with the SPI too. I'm going to have to bit bang the pins dedicated to SPI to get into a "special operating mode" of an IC I'm using, and then use the SPI functionality to send the data out to it after I'm done playing with the special mode
12:20:26 <T3sl4> annoying, but understandable
12:20:41 <T3sl4> i mean, no IC should ever have to do that, but i guess that happens
12:21:02 <PartsHanger4148> I mean, I don't know that it uses SPI
12:21:09 <PartsHanger4148> But just a serial data stream
12:21:38 <PartsHanger4148> That's uh what was it
12:21:45 <PartsHanger4148> TLC5916 LED driver\
12:21:48 <DHess_US> It's fun to consider the various ways to extend the performance of a long open collector/drain bus. I screwed up once with a discrete RS-232 level shifter by getting the current mirrors reversed and it worked *better*.
12:22:03 <PartsHanger4148> You have to hit SDI, CLK, LE, and OE in a certain sequence to do configuration.
12:22:21 <T3sl4> heh
12:25:28 <PartsHanger4148> My father said that I'm overcomplicating it and shit, but, 400pF max bus capacitance over 12" long ribbon cable has me a bit nervous.
12:25:39 <PartsHanger4148> 400pF before I add in the capacitance of the devices too
12:25:59 <T3sl4> you can do more with somewhat lower pullups and maybe a slower clock
12:26:01 <PartsHanger4148> I was looking at some PCAsomethingorother bus buffers I saw on Hackaday
12:26:36 <PartsHanger4148> It's not running the I2C+ or whatever the fast one is - the ADP is capable iirc? But the arduino is running at 4MHz I think? 400kHz? I don't remember rn.
12:26:59 <PartsHanger4148> Fast mode plus
12:28:27 <PartsHanger4148> Maybe even switch to using Twist-n-flat ribbon cable instead of just plain flat cable
12:28:43 <T3sl4> not going to get you any advantage for single ended signals
12:28:48 <PartsHanger4148> It'll add a bit of length...but I think it'd still be perfectly manageable.
12:29:02 <T3sl4> best you can do is every other wire ground
12:29:09 <PartsHanger4148> T3sl4: But if I use twist-n-flat and a single-diff bus driver
12:29:15 <PartsHanger4148> https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/data-sheet/PCA9615.pdf like so
12:29:59 <T3sl4> sure, if you want to add $5 to the design
12:31:03 <PartsHanger4148> I mean, I don't /want/ to, and I'm not sure how close I'm coming to the $300-500 budget for the project. But, if it's needed for the design to work. :v
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12:31:51 <T3sl4> anything you can do to keep I2C off the cable will help EMC immunity
12:32:15 <PartsHanger4148> It's an I2c encoder though, and I have at least four PCBs in this design
12:32:41 <T3sl4> 0.3m is not at all impossible to filter, well enough to survive most commercial environments
12:33:05 <PartsHanger4148> It's a one-off replica of the Apollo DSKY.
12:33:18 <T3sl4> ahhh
12:33:18 <PartsHanger4148> It's going into a display case at the school :P
12:33:45 <T3sl4> yeah, no one will care
12:35:12 <DHess_US> 400 picofarads over 12 inches isn't anything to worry about.
12:36:05 <DHess_US> If neccessary, use a curernt source to replace the pullup
12:36:43 <PartsHanger4148> Oh shit, it's only like 50pF/m for the cable?
12:36:53 <DHess_US> Or use a resistor or current source pullup to a higher supply voltage and clamp it with diodes or tranisstors.
12:36:55 <PartsHanger4148> I guess I can just put grounds on both sides of the signal then?
12:37:32 <DHess_US> Usually a good idea to run ground right beside for EMI and to reduce loop area and to control impedance.
12:38:03 <PartsHanger4148> Would gnd-SCL-gnd-SDA-gnd be alright, or should I have another ground between SCL and SDA?
12:38:12 <T3sl4> thats fine
12:38:23 <DHess_US> Just one between is fine
12:38:28 <T3sl4> can use supplies too, those count as gnd for EMI purposes
12:38:32 <DHess_US> And probably more than neccessary.
12:49:29 <Halcyon> Right, housework is done :)
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12:49:55 <PartsHanger4148> Care to review my work so far then? :v https://imgur.com/a/jfj1Np3
12:50:35 <PartsHanger4148> A bit crammed on the sheet, but I'm trying to keep it to one sheet.
12:51:04 <PartsHanger4148> Feel like on this board it's more clear when it's all on the one sheet coz I'm trying to keep options open and that leads to things getting a bit sloppy
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12:56:02 <PartsHanger4148> Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck, $75 in parts just on the keyboard board
13:06:10 <DHess_US> Is that pca9306 really neccessary?
13:06:18 <PartsHanger4148> I don't have it on the BOM
13:06:21 <PartsHanger4148> Or in the schema
13:08:40 <PartsHanger4148> Oh, some parts were doubled.
13:08:54 <PartsHanger4148> Like, 19 switches that are >$1/ea, it's really ~50
13:08:59 <PartsHanger4148> ~$50
13:09:26 <DHess_US> RV2001 should be on the bottom of the divider so if the wiper fails the voltage doesn't go to maximum.
13:26:31 <PartsHanger4148> If the wiper fails, LEDs have a Vf of 3V, and the regulator has a dropout of 500mV, that means I have 4.5V through 47R on a 3V LED, so I have 1.5V into 47R, so 30mA or 48mW yeah?
13:26:43 <PartsHanger4148> So that's pushing the LEDs, hard, but it's not overdriving them o.o
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14:13:59 <DHess_US> PartsHanger4148, it is a good habit to get into.
14:14:20 <DHess_US> Usually you always want a wiper failure to result in a *lower* output voltage.
14:15:06 <DHess_US> Does it really require a trim at all though?
14:15:28 <DHess_US> No potentiometer and no trim would be even better.
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15:10:05 <PartsHanger4148> DHess_US: I don't have the leds yet, don't know how bright I'm going to want them yet.
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15:57:58 <Ampera> Merry Christmas' Eve!
16:12:47 <T3sl4> Slightly Less Dismal Day to you, too!
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19:28:30 <WebChatUser> would be nice to have bot here
19:28:58 <WebChatUser> https://github.com/EvilzoneLabs like this
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19:36:07 <hsn> oh eevblog is a bot.. nvm. :D
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22:06:07 <ThunderSqueak> Hello
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22:13:00 <AndrevS> Hi
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22:29:49 <ThunderSqueak> hi AndrevS :D
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22:38:35 <Halcyon> Evening all
22:43:06 Quit: Iam ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
22:47:32 <AndrevS> afternoon
22:48:19 <ThunderSqueak> morning too
22:48:23 <ThunderSqueak> 2:30am here
22:48:24 <Halcyon> :D
22:48:25 <ThunderSqueak> err
22:48:26 <ThunderSqueak> 3am
22:48:28 <Halcyon> 2250here
22:48:38 <Halcyon> Slighting intoxicated
22:48:46 <Halcyon> Had Christmas eve at my parents
22:49:01 <AndrevS> 1250 here
22:49:11 <ThunderSqueak> ah, I have a glass of wine
22:49:12 <Halcyon> Where are you from AndrevS ?
22:49:24 <ThunderSqueak> not intoxicated tho, spent the day playing a video game
22:49:26 <AndrevS> the Netherlands
22:49:41 <Halcyon> Ah nice
22:50:29 Join: Iam ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
22:50:37 <rust_collector> hey-o people
22:51:03 <Halcyon> Hey rust_collector
22:51:36 <rust_collector> aah, holland-land. I enjoyed the few times I went there
22:52:12 <AndrevS> cool!
22:53:34 <coppice_> yeah, very cool at this time of year
22:54:14 <rust_collector> I still wonder where you keep all your people. it is a tiny piece of land, and you have fields that just keep going on and on. I am almost thinking you are doing some creative bookkeeping...
22:54:33 <coppice_> they keep them deblow sea level
22:54:39 <coppice_> below
22:55:04 <rust_collector> well, yeah
22:55:29 <Ampera> 'tis a very merry happy Christmas' eve, and one I wish to be a very merry happy Christmas for all.
22:55:42 <rust_collector> wow
22:55:52 <AndrevS> At least I'm from a part that is above sea level.
22:56:00 <rust_collector> happy christmas Ampera
22:56:06 <Ampera> yeeeee
22:56:34 <rust_collector> the upper netherlands?
22:57:07 <coppice_> the highlands
22:57:07 <Halcyon> Thanks Ampera
22:57:12 <Halcyon> I'm heading to bed, talk tomorrow
22:57:13 <Halcyon> :)
22:57:16 <Ampera> How was your European christmas?
22:57:22 <Ampera> ah, good night.
22:57:23 <rust_collector> it is tomorrow!
22:57:45 <Ampera> Halcyon celebrates by opening gifts on the evening of the eve.
22:58:00 <AndrevS> I grew up in the hills of Limburg, but now I live in North-Brabant.
22:58:20 <rust_collector> Ampera: we do that here as well
22:58:45 <Ampera> Not over here in the US, at least not my family (traditions go all over the place here). We celebrate by opening gifts on Christmas morning.
22:59:14 <rust_collector> yeah. you are special over there
22:59:27 <Ampera> :P
22:59:35 <coppice_> Gee, the trailer for the new MIB movie looks grim. From that, its not clear its even supposed to be a comedy
22:59:42 <rust_collector> hmm, brabant, that is to the south, right?
23:00:14 <rust_collector> coppice_: you sure you are not watching the news?
23:00:38 <coppice_> well, it began and ended with MIB logos
23:01:13 <rust_collector> I would not trust that too much
23:01:24 Quit: Iam ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
23:12:14 <ThunderSqueak> I forgot how bad this move was.... "wizards of the lost kingdom"
23:12:26 <ThunderSqueak> saw it as a kid, now watching the mst3k version
23:12:36 <ThunderSqueak> frikk'n hilarious XD
23:15:33 <ThunderSqueak> they are right tho.. the hero sorta looks like gordon ramsey, or "a fat sting"
23:16:40 <coppice_> "a fat sting" sounds like a bee
23:35:00 <ThunderSqueak> how are you doing coppice_
23:51:38 <ThunderSqueak> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DvGyxDgXQAEu8_W.jpg
23:51:40 <ThunderSqueak> XD
23:52:26 <rust_collector> hah!
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