// #eevblog — 2018-12-15
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00:55:03 Quit: ThunderSqueak ([email protected]) Quit: Leaving
01:01:20 Join: BurtyB ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
02:03:15 Join: PlamZ ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
02:03:22 <PlamZ> Is there anyone here?
02:11:04 <BurtyB> probably
02:21:45 <IoTPanic> idk
02:21:54 <IoTPanic> Is anyone anywhere?
02:25:01 <PlamZ> IoTPanic your name triggers me, we spent the last month trying to get used to IoT technologies just to be told we're not gonna use it
02:25:49 <PlamZ> Bought everything, got used to the type of programming required, got an MQTT server going
02:33:23 <IoTPanic> I co own an IoT company, so Im keeping it XD
02:33:23 <IoTPanic> I live and breath IoT
02:33:36 <BurtyB> sorry to hear that
02:33:54 <IoTPanic> Whys that BurtyB?
02:35:30 <IoTPanic> And Plamz, sounds like a management issue not a IoT concept issue, I dont see how this is my name's fault XD
02:36:35 <BurtyB> IoTPanic, living and breathing buzzwords ;)
02:37:11 <IoTPanic> Good point, I focus on small commercial IP connected automation and monitoring
02:37:20 <IoTPanic> Not as easy to say, and ppl dont wanna hear it
02:39:05 <IoTPanic> Im not connecting Alexa microwaves or crap
02:40:25 <DHess_US> IotPanic does the toasters which run NetBSD.
02:40:38 <PlamZ> Actually, we wanted to make a closed ecosystem with multiple house-made product to showcase during engineering show.
02:40:50 <PlamZ> But since there's a possibility the internet is iffy there, it was dropped.
02:41:43 <DHess_US> Shouldn't such products work even with iffy internet?
02:41:50 <IoTPanic> DHess_US god knows, it oculd make toast better. And PlamZ, high bandwidth or low bandwidth IoT Application?
02:41:56 <IoTPanic> And DHess-US is correct
02:42:08 <DHess_US> At least NetBSD would be secure.
02:42:14 <IoTPanic> We use LPWAN technologies to work without it, and yes
02:43:03 <IoTPanic> Hard to run NetBSD on some micros though
02:44:03 <BurtyB> IoTPanic, I'd rather hear the long version :)
02:44:45 <IoTPanic> I know YOU would, my family and 99% of earth doesnt XD
02:46:17 <DHess_US> I"ve only touched that area three times. I designed a full duplex transciever for mesh networking, an address allocation sceme and routing protocol for it, and a private cryptography based system of allocating traffic.
02:48:30 <IoTPanic> Yep, that's how you do it right. We're focusing on LoRaWAN rn, adding features to it and keeping compatibility to allow for OTA on unplanned devices that do not use our proprietary bits. LoRaWAN doesnt support mesh, and has areas for improvement. Then using a 2.4Mhz link for high power high bandwidth
02:49:57 <IoTPanic> Ghz, sorry
02:50:12 <DHess_US> It made maximum use of bandwdith but that isn't saying much. The cryptography part was so that you send other people's traffic to earn "tokens" to pay for others to route your traffic. IP would have been overlayed on top so it was much like a packet switched network fabric.
02:51:35 <DHess_US> This was before IPv6 but I'm not sure IPv6 would have worked either.
02:52:12 <DHess_US> The cryptography part woudl have required massive local processing but ... we sort of have that.
02:52:18 <IoTPanic> Are you taling about your routing system?
02:52:22 <DHess_US> yea
02:52:50 <IoTPanic> Kinda sounds like Zigbee, but secure
02:53:32 <DHess_US> And public and without a free rider problem (maybe).
02:53:48 <DHess_US> But probably not economcally feasible.
02:54:29 <DHess_US> centrally managed networks and wires are more economical
02:55:00 <IoTPanic> Yeah, but you could take a hint on TTNs fair use policy with LoRaWANs OTA
02:55:14 <IoTPanic> If it is master/gateway bound
02:56:28 <DHess_US> Even with full duplex it would have scaling problems. Blackhole routing helps with that.
03:04:18 <IoTPanic> So, we install a version of mLinux with a version of wget that is unable to fetch files with http:// or https:// in front of the URL, then Multitech decided to put http:// in all their repos in their repor list
03:04:26 <IoTPanic> No wonder I cant update
03:08:18 <PlamZ> I was away sorry!
03:08:20 <DHess_US> Sounds like someone else had the opposite problem.
03:09:26 <PlamZ> He had problem with online tools (Not IoT related) and since he's the boss he chooses
03:09:31 <PlamZ> He's not en EE tho.
03:09:34 <PlamZ> an*
03:09:41 <IoTPanic> Well, it works with https actually, wth
03:09:44 <PlamZ> Couldn,t change his mind so we had to roll with it.
03:09:51 <IoTPanic> Why didnt they just use https
03:09:56 <PlamZ> Yeah but try to explain protocols to marketing people
03:10:14 <PlamZ> He's like 'Budget comes from me, make some blutooth shit and it'll work"
03:10:22 <PlamZ> So we switched to that :/
03:11:00 <PlamZ> Also, to him, IoT is a broad word that means M2M.
03:11:38 <IoTPanic> Then they didnt even load their own server's TLS cert to trusted list 😒
03:12:14 <IoTPanic> I swear to god
03:12:19 Quit: PlamZ ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
04:06:46 Join: Guest|7674 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
04:16:05 Quit: Guest|7674 ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
05:08:30 Quit: IRCStats ([email protected]) EOF from client
05:17:36 Join: IRCStats ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
05:39:12 <DHess_US> https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094
05:45:32 <coppice> DHess_US: with the current state of poor science that article only just passes the bar for obvious parody
06:06:12 <IoTPanic> I posted that article on twitter yesterday, has gotten more attention than usual
06:20:31 <IoTPanic> And what is with shitty science in 2018? There seems to be a rise of stupidity
06:21:00 <coppice> There's too much ideology based research
06:21:36 <Polesch> Feels over reals
06:22:28 <IoTPanic> Ah, got it. makes a lot more sense now. Next person who researches the effectiveness of parachutes I will personally throw off an airborne airplane
06:22:40 <IoTPanic> No chute. I will be the control with a chute
06:23:08 <IoTPanic> Wait, what were they using as a control group?
06:23:22 <DHess_US> I propose that US politicians would make excellent test subjects.
06:23:45 <DHess_US> If that isn't enough, then how about lawyers?
06:23:49 <IoTPanic> Oh yes. From both parties, everyone is bat shit crazy rn
06:24:33 <coppice> Then they might conclude that a huge arsehole, rather than the lack of a parachute, makes the jump dangerous
06:25:28 <IoTPanic> Indeed
06:25:40 <IoTPanic> Anything but the truth
06:25:58 <coppice> Truth? You can't handle the truth
06:29:13 <IoTPanic> And this is how the conversation outside the oval office went after ppl tried explaining to trump 60% of illigal aliens from mexico come legally at first via airplane. Airplane goes higher than wall. Literally just better VISA management would have a bigger impact. I am personally against not allowing people from warzones to do low paying jobs in America, but quite frankly if we're gonna do it let's lessen the 60% rather then 40% idiots.
06:31:08 <Polesch> But MAGA!
06:33:43 <coppice> Put them behind bars. Make America Grate Again
06:35:09 <IoTPanic> Dont get me started on our for profit private prison system XD
06:35:36 <IoTPanic> Why is putty sometimes ass?
08:38:37 Quit: Crazor ([email protected]) Client exited
09:39:13 <Ampera> Good evening ladies and gentlefucks
09:44:57 <IoTPanic> Evening, I am unable to put good in front of it
09:50:58 <Ampera> I'm able, but that's because I've lost the ability to give a shit.
09:51:06 <damian> HEY!
09:51:19 <T3sl4> (4:41:11 PM) Ampera: Good evening ladies and gentlefucks <-- Ampera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B97e2XXxKdM
09:51:58 Join: cappicard ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
09:52:01 <Ampera> I've had better sound quality on landline phones.
09:52:18 <T3sl4> the better version is on pornhub, apparently
09:52:53 <IoTPanic> libsudo_util.o missing
09:52:56 <IoTPanic> yay
09:52:59 <rust_collector> morning... people?
09:53:02 <Ampera> reinstall sudo then
09:53:08 <IoTPanic> Cant
09:53:12 <Ampera> rust_collector, I don't know if I'm a real person either.
09:53:16 <IoTPanic> Need sudo to enable networking to enable SSH
09:53:17 <Ampera> why can't you
09:53:24 <Ampera> then use su
09:53:27 <IoTPanic> Cant
09:53:29 <IoTPanic> No root
09:53:35 <IoTPanic> Fuck u multitech
09:53:43 <Ampera> can you modify any files on the machine?
09:53:53 <IoTPanic> Only whats in home and such
09:54:10 <Ampera> context would be nice
09:54:13 <Ampera> what machine is it, and where is it
09:54:36 <IoTPanic> Its a multitech conduit running mLinux 4.0.1
09:55:11 <Ampera> Where is it located?
09:55:20 <Ampera> as in, do you have physical access?
09:55:33 <IoTPanic> Yes
09:55:58 <Ampera> is the storage embedded or removable?
09:56:14 <Ampera> couldn't you just sideload sudo and all the necessary configs onto it?
09:56:16 <cappicard> good evening folks :)
09:56:38 <IoTPanic> I cant move the file where it needs to be without root or sudo, even if I had the correct file
09:56:39 * T3sl4 waves
09:57:06 <cappicard> what distro are you using? abit fubar if sudo doesn't function
09:57:12 <IoTPanic> mLinyux
09:57:16 <IoTPanic> mLinux**
09:57:34 <Ampera> Can't you just reflash it?
09:58:03 <IoTPanic> Nope, they dont provide the image to do it with an SD card. They make you use a cli tool within the OS itself
09:58:13 <IoTPanic> Which guess what you need?
09:58:14 <cappicard> http://www.multitech.net/developer/software/mlinux/using-mlinux/log-in-as-an-admin-post-production/ may help ya
09:58:15 <Ampera> Is the OS on an SD card?
09:58:33 <rust_collector> Default credentials (mLinux 4.0.0 and above): username: mtadm & password: root
09:58:39 <rust_collector> it says in there somewhere
09:58:54 <IoTPanic> No, and I know the login! I was in it earlier
09:59:04 Quit: bsdx ([email protected]) Quit: Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?
09:59:10 <IoTPanic> And @cappicard what part of I dont have sudo..?
09:59:21 <IoTPanic> You know all of those cmds require sudo
10:00:42 <Ampera> IoTPanic, have you tried using sudo?
10:00:58 <rust_collector> hah
10:01:31 <IoTPanic> Yes, that is how I know there is no sudo. Im sorry for not being very nice, I have been trying to get a god damn LoRaWAN gateway to work all week and everything is fighting me
10:01:52 Quit: JohnSmithVII ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
10:01:59 <Ampera> My only other idea is if you can't directly modify files on the machine, but can reflash everything, couldn't you make an image by copying all of the important files off of the device?
10:02:25 <Ampera> Even though you can't modify system files, you should be able to read most, if not all of them.
10:02:50 <IoTPanic> I am unable to start a flashing procedure
10:02:54 <IoTPanic> Of any kind
10:03:29 <Ampera> Then my only suggestion is to make note of all the different versions of things, and then start looking for published exploits to SU you might be able to exploit
10:04:05 <Ampera> Probably a dead end, but if you truly have 0 other options, that's about as good of a recovery plan as you can get.
10:04:36 <IoTPanic> Im waiting for multitech to get back to me... This entire situation is avoidable with better bootloader design
10:05:00 <Ampera> Best of luck then.
10:05:29 * Ampera slaps Halcyon with a pancake
10:05:56 <cappicard> is it a trout flavored pancake? LOL
10:06:35 <Ampera> no, it's a pancake flavoured pancake
10:07:05 * Ampera slaps cappicard with a bass fish
10:07:09 <coppice> my two favourite flavours for pancakes are eggs and flour
10:07:17 <IoTPanic> Thanks, and thanks for trying
10:07:38 <cappicard> i actually like buttermilk and chocolate pancakes.
10:07:52 <Ampera> chocolate is gay, but buttermilk is good.
10:08:03 <coppice> yoghurt works better than buttermilk
10:08:05 <rust_collector> seems weird that they have all that stuff about sudo and such in the manual, if it is not there. Do you have some king of custom build?
10:08:31 <IoTPanic> No, I reflashed it for the second time and it was gone
10:08:49 <Ampera> YO! gurt.
10:09:01 <cappicard> sounds like a bad flash or it got interrupted for some reason.
10:09:30 <Ampera> I didn't eat all day, and am not hungry.
10:09:41 <Ampera> what is this witchcraft
10:09:56 <rust_collector> I only ate for a few minutes, and I am ok
10:10:44 <cappicard> hmm... this sucks. earlier last night, i noticed the plastic tab inside one of my desktop USB ports broke off.
10:11:00 <cappicard> least it's not one of the ports on my motherboard.
10:11:14 <Ampera> Yeah, two of the USB ports on the front of my case are on the wonk.
10:11:25 <Ampera> I really need to suck it up and just buy a new case.
10:11:35 <cappicard> this one is on the front panel of my case.
10:12:20 <cappicard> (and not one on the usb hub that's sitting in my 3.5" drive bay).
10:13:14 <IoTPanic> And yeah, it was a bad flash @cappicard it was not interrupted, i made sure of that
10:13:30 <Ampera> I only put floppy disk or tape drives in my 3 & 1/2 inch drive bays
10:13:31 <IoTPanic> I have everything else
10:14:05 <cappicard> i still have my 3.5"floppy drive in a drawer. I just don't have a FDC on this motherboard.
10:14:21 <cappicard> then again, i haven't used a floppy in over 10 years.
10:15:00 <rust_collector> you might as well try to glue the plastic piece back in there?
10:15:00 <cappicard> last week, i found a ray stevens cassette in my closet. LOL!
10:15:20 <Ampera> I have a USB diskette drive for my main machine, but I have probably around 5-6 floppy drives
10:15:29 <Ampera> maybe 4-5 that are working
10:16:21 <cappicard> pretty sad that the 5-disc CD changer quit in my stereo 10 years ago, and yet the dual cassette deck works a treat still. lol
10:16:26 <Ampera> Sadly I am in need of more, but I'm wrapping up my PC compatible collecting anyways, and (with the idea that the more I keep saying this the more true it will eventually get) am moving onto Unix workstations and 68k machines
10:16:53 <cappicard> i once had a power mac 6100 pizza box in '04-05.
10:16:55 <cappicard> unfor
10:17:05 <cappicard> unfortunately the pram battery leaked
10:17:16 <Ampera> I have an iMac G3, which is my only still-applefied mac.
10:17:22 <Ampera> I have an Intel mac mini, but it runs FreeBSD
10:17:44 <cappicard> i have a hackintosh on my desktop and notebook.
10:18:04 <cappicard> both triple boot mojave, windows 10, and ubuntu.
10:18:18 <Ampera> I had an OS/X VM at one point, forgot how I got it, but I have a general dislike of OS/X
10:18:54 <Ampera> I have OS/X 10.3 on my iMac, but I think I'm going to replace it with System 9, which is what originally ran on there when I got the machine
10:18:55 <cappicard> mojave has been decent thus far, but i'm forced to use a forsaken Intel hd 530
10:19:10 <Ampera> To me, anything that OS/X can do, Linux can do better.
10:19:17 <cappicard> nvidia taking its sweet time with drivers.
10:19:34 <cappicard> i've been using linux for about 23 years now.
10:20:01 <Ampera> I've only been using Linux for about a year or so, and have daily driven it for about a month (not counting the past 2 weeks)
10:20:13 <Ampera> because I'm away and using a Windows tablet that just barely doesn't like Linux.
10:20:29 <cappicard> the worst system i had linux on was my k6-2 350 with a diamond stealth 3d 4000 (s3 virge gx2)
10:20:49 <cappicard> that graphic card would hard lock my system when i tried running the moire2 xscreensaver module
10:21:09 <cappicard> and the k6-2 would shoot unto 85C with a full load!
10:21:18 <cappicard> as hot as a dec alpha
10:21:20 <Ampera> I once, a very long time ago when I was very young, tried to put Linux on a 486SX-25
10:21:45 <Ampera> That went exactly as far as you'd imagine.
10:21:54 <cappicard> i once ran Minix on an amstrad PC1512SD
10:22:02 <Ampera> I once ran.
10:22:19 <cappicard> now that was painful. it only had a 20MB RLL hard card and 512KB ram
10:22:42 <cappicard> yeah, anything SX was like pulling teeth
10:23:10 <Ampera> No, you can't run Linux on an SX
10:23:14 <Ampera> like, full stop.
10:23:21 <cappicard> not as bad as just running DOS 4.0 on a PCjr!
10:23:41 <Ampera> I'm curious, did the PCjr even have an 80 column text mode?
10:23:45 <cappicard> yes it did
10:24:00 <cappicard> it was capable of 80 columns
10:24:19 <cappicard> i did like its 16-color 320x200 graphics mode.
10:24:24 <Ampera> For whatever reason I thought it only had a 40 column text mode through its extended CGA
10:24:30 <cappicard> better than just CGA
10:24:43 <cappicard> mode co80 worked just fine for that
10:25:12 <cappicard> my first PCjr had a PC/PCjr toggle switch. all that did was toggle 40-80 character modes on boot
10:25:31 <cappicard> it had 384kb ram, and a second 360kb floppy drive
10:25:39 <cappicard> but it was anything but pc compatible.
10:27:35 <Ampera> My old PC collection doesn't go father back than the 486 era
10:27:41 <Halcyon> Morning all
10:27:47 <Ampera> liar
10:27:51 <Ampera> it's dark outside
10:27:56 <Halcyon> That's your problem
10:27:59 * Halcyon sips coffee
10:28:04 <Ampera> no you're my problem
10:28:07 <Ampera> always being nice and shit
10:28:09 <Ampera> :P
10:28:11 <Halcyon> Pfft
10:28:13 <cappicard> it got dark before 5pm here. yuck
10:28:19 <Halcyon> My FitBit arrived :D
10:28:24 <Ampera> Where do you are cappicard?
10:28:28 <cappicard> my first computer was a TRS-80 Model III
10:28:35 <cappicard> i'm in kansas city
10:28:38 <Ampera> My first computer was a Commodore 64
10:28:48 <Ampera> Currently near Hartford, but I live near Albany
10:29:12 <cappicard> i grew up in western kansas, pretty much the middle of nowhere. lol
10:29:35 Join: JohnSmithVII ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
10:32:26 * gremlinz still has his 64
10:32:33 <Halcyon> Welcome Cappicard, are you from the forum?
10:32:43 <Ampera> I have a Commodore 64, 64c and 128
10:32:52 <Halcyon> I've got a C64
10:33:06 <Halcyon> I don't want to plug the power supply into it anymore however, in case it has failed
10:33:10 <gremlinz> ironically talking about the sx25, which i had next
10:33:23 <rust_collector> I never had any of those old computers, my first computing machine was an olivetti m24
10:33:41 <Halcyon> Nice rust_collector
10:33:53 <Halcyon> I love old 8086 machines
10:34:01 <rust_collector> my cousing had 2 c64s, so I had to visit him pretty often
10:34:05 <rust_collector> cousin
10:34:41 <Ampera> My collection, in order of time, consists of a C64, C64c, C128, 486-DX4-120, P120, PPro 200, PMMX 233, P3-450, some Athlon XP+ machine, and a dual 7800GTX 512 machine with an Athlon 64 x2 5000+
10:35:05 <Ampera> oh, add in an iMac G3 in there.
10:35:51 <Halcyon> I actually have more old Apple machines than I do anything else
10:35:59 <Halcyon> Which is weird because I hate Apple product
10:36:00 <Halcyon> s
10:36:23 <Ampera> send them all to me, I'll take them off your hands
10:36:24 <Ampera> :P
10:36:56 <Halcyon> No
10:36:57 <Halcyon> :P
10:37:04 <Halcyon> I like old Apple products, back when Apple were good
10:37:25 <Halcyon> Anything after around the late 90's from Apple is just garbage
10:37:40 <Halcyon> Late 90's after I should say
10:40:31 <rust_collector> I don't think I have even used an apple confuser. I tried moms macbook once, which did not work out too well
10:41:10 <Halcyon> Even operating system aside (which I can appreciate why people like it), they hardware these days is just meh
10:41:16 <Halcyon> It's really not all that special at all
10:41:38 <Ampera> I think both OS/X and the Macintosh line is horrendous.
10:42:47 <Halcyon> Take the iPhone for example, extremely restrictive, far from robust and is usually behind the times in terms of specs/features than other phones
10:45:40 <Ampera> that's not true.
10:45:49 <Ampera> iPhones are some of the fastest ARM devices on the market.
10:46:05 <Ampera> Their A chips are fucking impressive, and I wish Android devices had chips on that level.
10:46:47 <Halcyon> Performance between Android and IOS devices is barely if at all noticeable by most users.
10:46:50 <Ampera> The issue is they are the lead sheep in the pack, whatever terrible or good idea Apple has, others follow
10:46:54 <Ampera> like the notch and headphone jack
10:46:56 <Halcyon> Phone CPUs generally don't clock up to full speed
10:46:59 <IoTPanic> Indeed, the A series SoC is a very good mobile processor.
10:47:18 <IoTPanic> The software running on it is the issue
10:47:40 <Halcyon> I have to disagree, while Apple used to be copied, these days other manufacturers are doing their own thing so they *aren't* like Apple
10:47:47 <Halcyon> It's what sets them apart
10:47:49 <Ampera> What difference does that make, Halcyon? The A chips are by the numbers better than even the fastest competitors.
10:47:59 <Halcyon> Sure
10:48:10 <Halcyon> But what difference does it make if you're not going to use it?
10:48:25 <IoTPanic> I dont thik Ampera is disagreeing
10:48:29 <Halcyon> To the user, the experience is usually the same
10:48:30 <IoTPanic> think**
10:48:38 <Ampera> I agree entirely, and think that phones are more powerful than they need to be.
10:49:06 <Ampera> Their power is useless, but I would /love/ to have an open platform A chip based tablet to run GNU/Linux or Android on.
10:49:17 <Halcyon> But CPU specs isn't only what I was talking about... Battery life, RAM, storage, camera resolution/capabilities etc...
10:49:20 <Ampera> That's a place where the power of those chips could really fly.
10:49:37 <Halcyon> All those things are often beaten to market by those other than Apple
10:49:53 <IoTPanic> GPU? The A series SoC has a really good GPU and nural net
10:49:54 <Ampera> I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying their CPUs are better.
10:50:00 <IoTPanic> ^^^^^
10:50:02 <Halcyon> Sure
10:50:21 <cappicard> Halcyon, i'm not on the forums. i have been watching dave's videos for years though. :)
10:50:30 <Halcyon> Ah nice
10:50:37 <Halcyon> Where did you hear about the IRC channel?
10:50:54 <cappicard> he mentioned it on his videos from a few weeks ago.
10:51:10 <rust_collector> what dave? and... forum?
10:51:12 <cappicard> haven't used irc in years. lol
10:51:13 <Halcyon> Oh I must have missed that
10:51:42 <Ampera> I'd be interested to see that, what video was it?
10:52:03 <IoTPanic> RIP the UK
10:52:08 <Ampera> ^
10:52:11 <IoTPanic> Brexit isnt exactly going to plan
10:52:22 <Halcyon> I haven't exactly been following IoTPanic
10:52:23 <rust_collector> hah, like there ever was a plan
10:52:30 <IoTPanic> Nope
10:52:38 <Ampera> I saw something fucking hilarious a second ago, IoTPanic
10:52:55 <IoTPanic> The conservative brexit leaders didnt even know most of their food came by boat. And whats that Ampera?
10:53:01 <IoTPanic> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI8-OqzRqkw This?
10:53:09 <Ampera> https://twitter.com/CountDankulaTV/status/1073720314075463681
10:53:11 <Halcyon> IoTPanic: How did they thing food got there?
10:53:17 <Halcyon> *think
10:53:31 <rust_collector> from the store?
10:53:33 <IoTPanic> They thought they grew all of it
10:53:44 <IoTPanic> Or didnt think of it. Idk
10:53:49 <Halcyon> Really... are your politicians *that* stupid?
10:53:54 <IoTPanic> Not mine
10:53:57 <IoTPanic> Well
10:53:58 <Halcyon> I mean ours aren't much better, but at least they know where food comes from
10:54:18 <rust_collector> grows on hamburger trees
10:54:21 <IoTPanic> This is the UK, Im in the US, but they are that stupid, both of them
10:54:30 <Halcyon> I would like a tree like that
10:54:38 <rust_collector> yeah
10:54:43 <Halcyon> I'd be such a fat fuck though if I did
10:54:48 <Ampera> I mean your politicians banned swiss army knives on the street, so
10:55:00 <Halcyon> And it works :)
10:55:08 <IoTPanic> Just brush up on brexit, there is a LOT of hilarious shit coming out of conservatives mouths
10:55:10 <Halcyon> In fact they've just strengthened stop and search powers here
10:55:13 <Halcyon> Which is excellent
10:55:21 <Ampera> Meanwhile I'm planning what I might buy as my first gun.
10:55:29 <IoTPanic> Lmao
10:55:31 <IoTPanic> AR-15
10:55:33 <Ampera> How is that excellent?
10:55:36 <IoTPanic> Gotta be AMERICAN
10:55:38 <Ampera> M1 Garand, IoT
10:55:44 <IoTPanic> Lol
10:55:50 <Ampera> I'm thinking of getting one of the military surplus ones.
10:55:54 <Halcyon> Less weapons on the streets, more crooks locked up, reduction in crime.
10:56:02 <IoTPanic> AR-15 kills more poeple than many kinds of regular death
10:56:05 <Ampera> More rights thrown away to police.
10:56:06 <IoTPanic> causes
10:56:28 <Halcyon> Ampera, you might think that, but it's a system that works. High visibility policing and smashing high risk and repeat offenders.
10:56:33 <Halcyon> It has worked for decades
10:56:45 <Ampera> I don't trust the police to have that much power.
10:56:55 <Ampera> Nobody should have power to, without due cause, stop and search someone on the street.
10:57:02 <Ampera> That is something I would die to protect.
10:57:02 <Halcyon> This is why I can walk down the street, ANY street, and not be afraid that I'll be robbed at gun point
10:57:15 <Halcyon> So you could rather die than have a safer community?
10:57:22 <Ampera> I'd rather have personal freedoms.
10:57:25 <Halcyon> Your Police much really not be respected in your country
10:57:30 <Halcyon> *must
10:57:31 <IoTPanic> They arent
10:57:36 <Halcyon> That's a real shame :(
10:57:41 <Ampera> I respect my police.
10:57:50 <Ampera> However I don't think anybody should have that sort of power.
10:57:51 <IoTPanic> Police respect is at a all time low, and im talking generally
10:57:58 <Halcyon> Ampera: But it works
10:58:07 <IoTPanic> Gotta stop killing teenagers of color first
10:58:12 <Ampera> I don't care if it works, find another way.
10:58:14 <IoTPanic> Those stats are terrible
10:58:16 <Halcyon> You can't hold onto your archaic constitution forever and not evolve
10:58:25 <Halcyon> Criminals evolve, it seems your government doesnt.
10:58:33 <Ampera> If you start killing every poor person on the street, then that would probably remove all crime as well.
10:58:43 <Halcyon> That's just stupid
10:58:46 <IoTPanic> Indeed
10:58:58 <Ampera> Have a requirement of 40 grand a year to live, otherwise you get sold as living targets.
10:58:59 <IoTPanic> A lot of people are poor due to medical expenses in the US
10:59:10 <Halcyon> You target those that need to be targeted, i.e.: Convicted criminals, high risk offenders
10:59:26 <Ampera> I imagine that would prevent a lot of violent crime, often committed by the poor and stupid.
10:59:40 <Ampera> The point is you need to find a way to fight crime without throwing away people's liberties.
10:59:47 <Halcyon> The poor and stupid normally commit petty crimes, shoplifting etc...
10:59:49 <IoTPanic> Im goin to go smoke a lot of pot, I will be right back
11:00:00 <coppice> I've met three Americans who say they will never return to the US after being in bankrutpcy court due to medical expenses after an accident
11:00:01 <Halcyon> Ampera: That's not true
11:00:19 <Halcyon> There is a balance
11:00:23 <IoTPanic> Yes @coppice, its a big problem
11:00:28 <Halcyon> You can't just take take take and expect all the freedom you want
11:00:30 <Ampera> A balance that you've thrown away.
11:00:33 <IoTPanic> For profit hospitals
11:00:33 <Halcyon> Not at all
11:00:51 <Ampera> Halcyon, can I be searched for absolutely no reason at all on the Streets of Sydney?
11:00:56 <Halcyon> No
11:01:12 <Ampera> Do you need a warrant to search people?
11:01:14 <Halcyon> No
11:01:22 <IoTPanic> Neither do US police
11:01:28 <Ampera> Do you need to accuse someone of a crime to search people?
11:01:29 <IoTPanic> idk where youre going with that
11:01:33 <IoTPanic> There you go
11:01:40 <Halcyon> "Reasonable suspicion", which can be anything from intelligence to a report from the member of the public.
11:01:52 <IoTPanic> Wait wat
11:01:56 <Ampera> In the US, someone needs to have a warrant or be directly accused of a crime in order to be searched.
11:01:59 <Halcyon> If I see a grandma walking down the street, I probably would have no reason to stop and search here
11:02:06 <Ampera> Any other non-consenting search is constitutionally illegal.
11:02:12 <Halcyon> Yes, which is stupid
11:02:22 <Ampera> No, it protects police from searching whoever the hell they want.
11:02:25 <IoTPanic> Youre saying my neighbor could tell you i own a firearm illigally and you can just search me?
11:02:33 <Halcyon> What if someone came up to me and told me that guy over there *points* has a weapon and has been threatening people with it.
11:02:37 <coppice> Halcyon: you didn't learn the lesson in MIB
11:02:40 <Halcyon> I'm not going to fart ass around getting warrants
11:02:53 <Ampera> Then you walk up to him and ask him what the fuck
11:02:53 <IoTPanic> If you get a 911 call
11:03:02 <Halcyon> IoTPanic: In a public place yes, we would need a warrant to search your house
11:03:06 <Ampera> If you have proof that he has been threatening people, of course you can search him.
11:03:10 <Halcyon> Unless you were subject to a Firearms Prohibition Order
11:03:12 <Ampera> However the key thing is you need /proof/
11:03:34 <Ampera> You can't search someone on suspicion alone, and that's not right.
11:03:36 <Halcyon> The proof is, Police search you, find a weapon
11:03:38 <Halcyon> Perfect proof
11:03:45 <Halcyon> I disagree
11:04:02 <Halcyon> But as I said, it's a system that works well. You don't target everyday normal civilians, you target the crooks
11:04:08 <Halcyon> And most crooks are known to Police
11:04:19 <Ampera> Then how do you ensure the police only target crooks and don't bully random people?
11:04:22 <IoTPanic> Diffrent cultures guys, remember that, but the AU has much better homicide, suicide, and crime stats
11:04:33 <Ampera> I'm sure 99.999% of all police are honorable people, but there are a lot of police.
11:04:43 <IoTPanic> Indeed
11:04:49 <Ampera> and a lot of police offices, in a lot of very prejudiced areas.
11:04:51 <Halcyon> There are corrupt people in EVERY group, you can never weed them out
11:04:53 <Halcyon> Never
11:05:02 <Halcyon> That's why you have auditing and accountability
11:05:13 <Ampera> That's why you need restrictions on what people can do.
11:05:14 <Halcyon> Our interactions are recorded
11:05:16 <Halcyon> No
11:05:19 <Ampera> So are ours.
11:05:21 <IoTPanic> So are the US's
11:05:26 <Halcyon> The Police do something wrong, they get punished or sacked
11:05:28 <IoTPanic> EVERY one
11:05:30 <Halcyon> That's what we need
11:05:42 <Ampera> Halcyon, but how do you prevent that system from breaking down?
11:05:42 <Halcyon> Not restricting the good work almost all other Police do
11:05:49 <Halcyon> "Breaking down" ?
11:05:57 <Ampera> How do you make sure the people high up don't turn a blind eye because it's just someone they don't like getting hurt?
11:06:23 <Ampera> It's not a restriction, it's a protection, for the same reason you guys need a warrant to search a house.
11:06:30 <IoTPanic> Recent case of it in the US if you want a good example of what Amperas talking about
11:06:39 <Halcyon> Because their job will be on the line. We are accountable to external bodies, not just our bosses in the organisation
11:06:53 <Ampera> Yeah, I'm actually not even specifically talking about Australia, the Police here do the same things.
11:07:02 <Halcyon> For example the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission
11:07:13 <Ampera> They search and abuse minorities and other hurt groups, and in some areas they get away with it
11:07:25 <Ampera> So are our police, Halcyon, all of our police are accountable.
11:07:32 <Halcyon> Not enough it seems
11:07:37 <IoTPanic> ^
11:07:52 <Halcyon> Every access I make on our databases is accounted for
11:07:57 <Halcyon> If I don't, I get in trouble
11:08:03 <IoTPanic> 9/10 times when the police commit a crime they are given a fine and switched departments. Major crimes
11:08:14 <IoTPanic> Convicted of murder
11:08:24 <IoTPanic> For killing unarmed black kids
11:08:26 <Ampera> I can't convince you Halcyon, all I can do is deplore you.
11:08:33 <Halcyon> Yeh that doesn't happen here. We have what's called a Section 181D, which means the Commissioner has lost faith in you and you're out.
11:08:39 <IoTPanic> You guys both have very good points.
11:08:41 <Halcyon> People have faced 181D for lying on paperwork before
11:08:53 <Halcyon> I can't convince you either
11:08:58 <Halcyon> But I speak from experience
11:09:01 <Halcyon> You don't
11:09:05 <Ampera> Yes, Halcyon, we have all of these protections and more, but the point is they have failed for us.
11:09:32 <Ampera> All police are supposed to as accountable as yours are, the issue is sometimes that doesn't work.
11:09:33 <Halcyon> That's what I'm saying, it's not the fact that "Police have too many powers", its that they aren't regulated or accountable enough
11:09:44 <Ampera> That's why we need to have these sorts of laws to protect people.
11:09:48 <Halcyon> You shouldn't punish the majority because of a few
11:09:57 <Ampera> It's not a punishment, it's a protection.
11:10:09 <Ampera> Police can do their job here just fine, and I feel perfectly safe walking down the streets of where I live.
11:10:21 <Halcyon> Preventing Police from being effective at reducing crime is not good
11:10:54 <Halcyon> You guys do some weird things there which I can't work out why
11:11:03 <Halcyon> Breath/drug testing is another example
11:11:35 <Ampera> As I said, I can't convince you, all I can do is say you are wrong.
11:11:41 <Halcyon> But I'm not
11:11:48 <Ampera> My point exactly.
11:11:51 <Halcyon> It's not a matter of right and wrong
11:12:08 <Halcyon> It's I have over 10 years Law Enforcement experience, I've seen what works and what doesn't
11:12:12 <Ampera> Alright, let me put this a different way, I am done talking about this.
11:12:18 <Halcyon> I figured ;-)
11:12:35 <Ampera> This is a matter of police vs civilian, and we will each have different views and trusts.
11:12:42 <IoTPanic> I want to add one more tid bit, you guys are disagreeing because of an ideaology "It's not a punishment, it's a protection."
11:12:54 <Halcyon> Absolutely
11:13:06 <IoTPanic> Neither of you are wrong, you are simply in different countries
11:13:10 <Halcyon> But to dismiss something because you don't agree as being "wrong" is just ignorant
11:13:11 <Ampera> As a civilian I don't put full trust into the police being truly accountable.
11:13:18 <IoTPanic> Both systems work to some degree, and fail in other
11:13:19 <IoTPanic> s
11:13:33 <Ampera> Let me put it this way, I would not want to live in Australia.
11:13:47 <Ampera> This would be a reason for me to not want to do it.
11:13:49 <IoTPanic> You Halcyon, would not be able to police in US, and Ampera would not like living in the AU
11:13:59 <IoTPanic> I have been searched and investigated by police here
11:14:04 <Ampera> Thus, the impasse.
11:14:07 <IoTPanic> Nothing prevents them from shit
11:14:19 <Ampera> ^
11:14:29 <IoTPanic> And Ampera, AU has a MUCH lower crime rate, its just an ideaology
11:14:51 <Ampera> They also have a MUCH different demographical breakdown.
11:14:52 <IoTPanic> They accept it over there
11:15:19 <Ampera> We have a lot of diversity that doesn't clash well in many places, and a lot of poverty and classism.
11:16:10 <IoTPanic> Both counties have their issue, the US police would be terrible in the AU and the AU police would all get legally shot in the US
11:16:27 <Ampera> In other discussion, apparently you can get decent grade M1 Garands for 750 bucks from government surplus
11:16:29 <Halcyon> I think he would like living here with the exception of not being able to carry knives and guns on the street, willy nilly
11:16:36 <Ampera> you just need to be a member affiliated with the CMP
11:16:39 <IoTPanic> You have the right to defend yourself against police
11:16:46 <Ampera> I can't carry a gun willy nilly.
11:16:51 <IoTPanic> Is my point on that last sentence
11:16:53 <Ampera> A knife, yes, I can carry with few exceptions whatever knife I want.
11:17:08 <Halcyon> I do however agree with one major thing to cops get right over there... their pursuit policy is MUCH better than ours
11:17:13 <Halcyon> We don't use things like PIT
11:17:29 <Ampera> PIT?
11:17:31 <Halcyon> Our pursuits are terminated very early usually, leaving the crook to continue on doing whatever
11:17:48 <IoTPanic> LOL
11:17:49 <Halcyon> Pursuit Intervention Technique
11:17:58 <Halcyon> It's literally ramming the crook's car off the road
11:18:06 <IoTPanic> Less civilians killed in presuit I bet
11:18:15 <Halcyon> You would think so but no, not really
11:18:21 <IoTPanic> Lmao
11:18:32 <Halcyon> Unforuntatly they count the death of the crook as "bad
11:18:46 <IoTPanic> US cops have been switching to sticky GPS beacons
11:18:48 <rust_collector> up here, even mail trucks ram cars of the road... so...
11:18:54 <IoTPanic> Brings them to compounds
11:19:06 <Ampera> I count it as bad depending on what the crook did.
11:19:17 <Ampera> If they killed someone, then death in an attempt to arrest is justified.
11:19:23 <Halcyon> Yeh that's a good idea too IoTPanic
11:19:23 <Ampera> If they stole a loaf of bread, not so much,
11:19:25 <IoTPanic> If they are evading the police, they should be stopped
11:19:27 <Halcyon> Again, not something we use here
11:19:37 <IoTPanic> Police need not be evaded
11:19:45 <Halcyon> People don't run from Police (in cars) due to shoplifting
11:19:51 <IoTPanic> They do here
11:19:54 <IoTPanic> Let me tell you
11:19:59 <IoTPanic> I used to work at WALMART
11:20:02 <Ampera> All I can say is I trust my local police, I want to go to them if I need help.
11:20:07 <IoTPanic> TVS GREW LEGS AND RAN
11:20:13 <IoTPanic> Then fun police tackles
11:20:17 <IoTPanic> And chases
11:20:18 <Halcyon> 99% of times its someone with a warrant, someone who has guns and/or drugs in the car or someone who has been disqualified from driving
11:20:35 <IoTPanic> People are just REALLY stupid here
11:20:42 <Halcyon> People are stupid EVERYWHERE
11:20:47 <Halcyon> Society is really dumbing down
11:20:52 <IoTPanic> Have you ever been to Walmart?
11:21:22 <IoTPanic> You will change your mind
11:21:38 <IoTPanic> But I agree, but you will think US has a bit of a lower IQ standard
11:21:53 <Halcyon> We don't have Walmart and I've never been to the US
11:22:12 <IoTPanic> There is a movement of people who think the sun is flat. Walmart will change you
11:22:26 <Halcyon> Gee my resting heart rate is a little high
11:22:30 <IoTPanic> You can also buy a gun there
11:22:38 <IoTPanic> And bread
11:22:39 <coppice> I've been to a few Walmarts in the US. Dystopian wasteland is my best description of them
11:22:50 <IoTPanic> I worked electronics
11:22:55 <IoTPanic> 😥
11:23:37 <IoTPanic> I bought my knives there though, they made a knife I really love
11:24:41 <IoTPanic> Im not saying all people there are stupid, but you will see things. Its a place to buy everything cheap
11:25:09 <IoTPanic> That allows portable homes to park and live outside. Attracts a certain crowd
11:25:41 <coppice> In China Walmart is the opposite. They have a very middle class clientele
11:27:07 <IoTPanic> There you go, I really want to VISIT china. After Trump leaves office
11:28:15 <rust_collector> my dad went to china for work (he was a musician) he now hates noodles, but he enjoyed being tall
11:29:20 <IoTPanic> "Brexit is being called a far right political coo that was staged by extremist in the party". Wow, this world is fucked "What will you do about it?" "Best thing we can do is just start bringing people back into the party to try to make the best of it" lmmmaaaoooo
11:29:21 <coppice> more and more noodles are fine until you get pasta certain point
11:29:52 <IoTPanic> When something is so bad the only thing you can do is make it worse
11:30:11 <Halcyon> Anyway Ill be back soon gents, I need to go to the hardware store
11:30:23 <rust_collector> what is so bad?
11:30:25 <IoTPanic> Okay, you go there a lot Halcyon
11:30:48 <IoTPanic> Wdym rust_collector?
11:30:50 <coppice> IoTPanic: for context, the father of one of the most vociferous conservative back bench brexiters wrote a book on profiting from chaos
11:31:06 <IoTPanic> Oh thank you
11:31:19 <IoTPanic> Wow
11:31:30 <IoTPanic> They sure got their crap together
11:31:44 <rust_collector> When something is so bad the only thing you can do is make it worse... So, what is so bad?
11:32:01 <Halcyon> I do?
11:32:02 <IoTPanic> Everything, involving brexit.
11:32:06 <Halcyon> I haven't been for a while
11:32:07 <IoTPanic> You seem to
11:32:13 <IoTPanic> You were there the other day
11:32:23 <Halcyon> Hmm I don't remember
11:32:32 <Halcyon> You sure it wasn't just the normal supermarket?
11:32:33 <IoTPanic> I remember you leaving to go to the hardware store, or so you said
11:32:45 <IoTPanic> To Ampera
11:32:53 <Halcyon> I do go to the shops a lot, I generally do small shops for a day or two worth of food
11:32:55 <IoTPanic> I was wondering what you were working on
11:33:00 <IoTPanic> I meant to ask you
11:33:11 <Halcyon> *shrug* Maybe I meant to go but then got sidetracked
11:33:27 <Halcyon> I need to buy some drill bits to drill holes in steel and brick
11:33:51 <IoTPanic> Ah, there ya go.
11:34:26 <coppice> I don't want drill bits. I want a whole drill
11:34:53 <Halcyon> I have 2 cordless drills, you are welcome to one
11:34:55 <Halcyon> I have no idea why
11:35:34 <rust_collector> I rediscovered my old corded drill this summer. I love that thing
11:36:25 <Halcyon> I also need to mow the lawns today
11:36:32 <Halcyon> They are getting a little out of control
11:38:33 <IoTPanic> rust_collector basically the UK didnt realize how much they relied on things like food, electronics, everything, and almost everyones business involves some form of EU deal because thats how they built their economy and 99% of people are loosing everything and going in a rescission if they dont get a brexit deal and 1% massively profits and the EU is saying fuck you and now everyone realizes what they did and are trying to prepare as much as they
11:38:34 <IoTPanic> can
11:38:54 <IoTPanic> And more far right people are protesting and asking for a change in government which is causing issues
11:39:05 <IoTPanic> Which is the LAST thing they need right now
11:39:18 <IoTPanic> etc etc etc etc etc
11:39:24 <IoTPanic> There is no end
11:39:30 <rust_collector> I agree with that last part
11:40:20 <IoTPanic> Im being wayover dramatic but I think most would agree with my general point
11:40:40 <Halcyon> The UK need to tell the royals to hush it
11:41:04 <Halcyon> I'm sick of seeing their dysfunctional family in the news :P
11:41:13 <IoTPanic> I think everyone needs to chill the hell out for a minute because what they are doing is not working
11:41:18 <Halcyon> Megan is pissed at so-and-so
11:41:23 <Halcyon> And the Queen is cranky
11:41:28 <IoTPanic> Who cares?
11:41:30 <Halcyon> Harry and thingo are fighting
11:41:49 <Halcyon> Like honestly, it's just crap
11:41:49 <IoTPanic> What impact does that have on anything?
11:42:04 <IoTPanic> They are a joke, the UK peaked in the 1600s
11:42:12 <Halcyon> Indeed
11:42:15 <IoTPanic> When it was england
11:42:26 <Halcyon> News is bad enough with clickbait etc... we don't need that garbage
11:42:41 <Halcyon> It's the same as writing about the Kardashians... like who cares, who the hell are they?
11:42:51 <rust_collector> If they get done with that brexit thing, in or out of the eu, with or without a deal, they will still trade with you.
11:43:18 <IoTPanic> Yes, they will, im not saying they wont
11:44:09 <IoTPanic> But a lot of middle and lower class people are getting fucked because of far right movments and they are all getting way too emotional over politics and they need to stop shooting themselves in the foot
11:44:11 <IoTPanic> Same here
11:44:49 <IoTPanic> Stop being far right or far left, start doing whats fucking right
11:45:40 <rust_collector> I was pretty happy the first few weeks after they had the brexit vote. But then it went full retard. and the last 2 years I have not really been keeping up with it.
11:45:42 <IoTPanic> You can leave the EU, fine, but this brexit sudden rebellion was NOT the right move and most people outside of the UK knew it
11:45:59 <Ampera> the left are a load of souless commies bent on destroying America.
11:46:19 <IoTPanic> Talkin about the spy?
11:46:41 <rust_collector> I really dislike he Eu these days.
11:47:30 <Ampera> I really dislike everyone these days.
11:47:50 <IoTPanic> Thats fine, but Brexit was not the answer
11:47:52 <rust_collector> trade deals, and that kind of thing is fine, like it was when they started it. But I think it is starting to look more and more like the 3rd reich redone
11:48:17 <Halcyon> Oh hey, you guys would know
11:48:35 <IoTPanic> How many trade deals do you have now?
11:48:37 <Halcyon> If I'm using dynabolts or similar to secure a heavy object to brick...
11:48:38 <IoTPanic> RIGHT now?
11:48:42 <IoTPanic> While leaving?
11:48:45 <IoTPanic> Well prepped?
11:48:47 <IoTPanic> Right?
11:48:59 <Halcyon> Do I need to put a glue or anything in, or just the bolt/sleeve thing alone is enough?
11:49:28 <IoTPanic> You do not need glue
11:49:29 <rust_collector> expanding bolts?
11:49:34 <IoTPanic> Yes
11:49:37 <Halcyon> Yes those things
11:49:41 <rust_collector> nah, no glue
11:49:48 <IoTPanic> No thats kinda strange
11:50:17 <IoTPanic> I took a class on mounting stuff to concrete, never glue
11:50:34 <Halcyon> No worries
11:50:37 <IoTPanic> Not lying, trained to be an electrition
11:50:47 <IoTPanic> Still cant spell it
11:50:53 <Halcyon> I'm putting in a small safe, but its fucking heavy
11:51:11 <Halcyon> Bolted to brick using 4x 10mm bolts
11:51:19 <IoTPanic> Umm
11:51:26 <IoTPanic> Wait before you do that
11:51:37 <Halcyon> Mmm ?
11:52:01 <IoTPanic> How many 10MM bolts? Like 50? How much does this safe weigh?
11:52:27 <Halcyon> At a guess, probably... 30KG
11:52:30 <Halcyon> 20-30
11:52:46 <Halcyon> 4x bolts, 100mm long, 10mm dia.
11:52:51 <IoTPanic> Okay, wait one moment
11:53:18 <IoTPanic> What anchor length are you using?
11:53:31 <Halcyon> Sorry not 100, 90mm
11:55:02 <rust_collector> is it on the floor, or are you bolting it "floating" on a wall?
11:55:14 <IoTPanic> Im assuming floating
11:55:33 <IoTPanic> But that is a very good question
11:55:43 <Halcyon> Floating
11:55:49 <IoTPanic> How big is the safe?
11:55:57 <IoTPanic> Gotta go kilonewton math
11:56:12 <Halcyon> 26 x 20 x 20cm
11:56:13 <rust_collector> 30 kg would not be a very large safe, I would think
11:56:45 <IoTPanic> Okay, you may be fine. I just did the kg to pounds XD
11:56:47 <Halcyon> 7mm thick steel door, I assume the body of it is thicker but it's hard to measure with the recessed entry
11:56:51 <IoTPanic> I hate the imperial system
11:57:32 <rust_collector> as long as you know 1/2" is about 13, and 3/4" is 19, you can take apart a toyota
11:58:28 <Halcyon> Hahaha
11:59:19 <IoTPanic> You should be fine, those things are according to their data sheet REALLY strong.... Make sure they are fulled deployed in the wall
11:59:24 <Halcyon> So IoTPanic, I should be OK? I don't know how much a brick wall generally holds in terms of "protruding" loads like that (I don't know the technical term)
11:59:36 <rust_collector> I would be more worried about the bricks
11:59:42 <IoTPanic> Oh, brick
11:59:49 <IoTPanic> These are not rated for brick
11:59:52 <Halcyon> Yes, not concrete
12:00:08 <IoTPanic> You can use them, but I can not give you a number or a yes or know
12:00:13 <IoTPanic> Depends on the brick
12:00:21 <IoTPanic> NO*** wow
12:00:22 <rust_collector> is it a hollow wall?
12:00:43 <Halcyon> I think the bricks aren't 100 solid, they usually make them with 3 holes
12:00:55 <Halcyon> I can't be certain though
12:01:25 <Halcyon> I *can* bolt it to a concrete slab, but it means it will be at ground level. Not ideal, but if I need to, it's an option
12:01:53 <IoTPanic> I would do that...
12:02:42 <rust_collector> I think you should put a nice oval piece of glass on top of it, tablecloth, and maybe some candles and a fruit basket on top of it
12:02:51 <Halcyon> Hahah
12:02:56 <IoTPanic> It would PROBABLY be ok, but...
12:03:13 <IoTPanic> It would be a shame to wreck the brick
12:04:12 <Halcyon> Either way I'm drilling into something
12:04:41 <IoTPanic> Thats fine
12:04:42 <rust_collector> if there is space inside the wall, you can get bolts that have sort of spring loaded hooks on the end, that should do ok
12:04:49 <IoTPanic> I wouldnt 100% hang it floating thought
12:04:53 <IoTPanic> though
12:05:03 <IoTPanic> That would be 100% better
12:05:09 <IoTPanic> What rust is sayin
12:05:23 <Halcyon> Perhaps a supporting bracket underneath?
12:06:03 <IoTPanic> Yeah, that would help too
12:06:30 <IoTPanic> Not as much as what rust is talking about, but both combined you could chain your criminals to it if you had to
12:06:44 <Halcyon> Hahaha
12:07:04 <rust_collector> well, good night. it is 2 in the morning here.
12:07:13 <rust_collector> have fun etc.
12:07:16 <Halcyon> Goodnight :D
12:08:02 <IoTPanic> Night
12:14:43 <Halcyon> IoTPanic: I just measured, the safe is 15KG
12:14:50 <Halcyon> I over estimated earlier
12:15:38 <IoTPanic> Oh, you're probably fine assuming your bolts dont expand into cavities and you dont fill it with gold
12:16:16 <Halcyon> If I do drill into cavities... is there something I could/should fill it with?
12:16:32 <Halcyon> It's not something I'll know until I've done it
12:16:36 <IoTPanic> Not really, you're kinda fucked at that point
12:16:51 <IoTPanic> Thats why you should use what rust was talking about
12:17:24 <IoTPanic> Well, I would drill your first hole too small
12:17:50 <IoTPanic> If you hit a cavity, switch to what rust was talking about, it is your only option from there realistically
12:18:18 <IoTPanic> I would do it with all your holes tbh
12:19:12 <IoTPanic> You cant just fill it like wood
12:19:41 <IoTPanic> The structural integrity is compromised from that point
12:20:45 <IoTPanic> You have to rely on brick further away from the hole in a wider area, like what rust was using does
12:21:01 <Halcyon> *nod*
12:22:47 <IoTPanic> And note, if you manage to hang it after expanding the bolt into the cavity, and it hangs, you will think of me in a decade
12:22:50 <IoTPanic> Or less
12:23:02 <Halcyon> :D
12:23:05 <IoTPanic> Rather abruptly
12:23:15 <Halcyon> I might just stick with the concrete slab
12:23:28 <Halcyon> This is raising way too many unknowns for my liking
12:23:55 <IoTPanic> Yeah, without being there, that is 100% what I would do, if you dont know what you're doing you can really mess some stuff up
12:24:52 <Halcyon> Yeah absolutely
12:24:56 <IoTPanic> And someone may just be able to walk up, and pull hard to take your safe. Dont need to get the code or anything, just a way out
12:25:47 <Halcyon> Yeh which is not good
12:25:48 <IoTPanic> Resting on the ground though, it will be okay.
12:26:09 <IoTPanic> Im guessing you are gonna store you firearm so no
12:26:49 <IoTPanic> Would I be correct?
12:29:35 Quit: Halcyon ([email protected]) Changing hosts
12:29:35 Join: Halcyon ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
12:32:45 <Halcyon> I sent you a PM
12:33:43 <Halcyon> Anyway I'm off to the hardware store :) Thanks for your help
12:35:38 <IoTPanic> Np
12:36:39 <IoTPanic> "Halcyon: You need a registered nickname to message this user"
13:57:47 Join: ThunderSqueak ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
13:57:56 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o ThunderSqueak
13:58:29 <Ampera> hi ThunderSqueak
13:58:41 <ThunderSqueak> hi there
13:58:49 <ThunderSqueak> D&Dwas just called due to blizzard outside
13:59:01 <Ampera> why not just play outside
14:20:52 <DHess_US> "Just to triple check, are you really suggesting that a ~2Ghz dual core with 8 Gb of RAM is not powerful enough to edit files containing 1000 lines of code ?" https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs/issues/11622
14:26:03 <Ampera> Is this on-the-fly compilation?
14:28:51 <DHess_US> Friendship among Women: A woman didn't come home one night. The next morning she told her husband that she had slept over at a friend's house. The man called his wife's 10 best friends. None of them knew anything about it.
14:28:54 <DHess_US> Friendship among Men: A man didn't come home one night. The next morning he told his wife that he had slept over at a friend's house. The woman called her husband's 10 best friends. Eight confirmed that he had slept over, and two said he was still there.
14:32:12 <Ampera> that's sexist
14:32:50 * Ampera flings rubidium at Halcyon
14:39:18 <coppice> DHess_US: are you taking the sexist position that women are more honest? we can't have that
14:48:03 <Ampera> Yeah, I mean look at Hillary Clinton.
14:56:08 Join: OEM ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
14:56:36 <OEM> at what point would you swap from using discrete logic to an FPGA
14:57:22 <Ampera> You switch to an FPGA when you start thinking about killing yourself.
14:57:31 <Ampera> That way it makes it easier. :P
14:58:00 <OEM> oh
14:58:13 <Ampera> FPGAs are expensive and take skill to work with, while discrete logic can be anywhere from fairly cheap to incredibly expensive, depending on chip count.
14:58:46 <Ampera> There's a reason things like TTL chip based computers didn't exactly go anywhere in the consumer or even business fields.
14:58:57 <OEM> the smallest FPGAS ( ICE40 ) are only $1 or so
14:59:08 <Ampera> Yes, but what about the programming tools?
14:59:16 <OEM> free tools
14:59:38 <Ampera> I meant the individual programmers for the chips, but maybe I'm wrong, not entirely an expert.
14:59:59 <Ampera> I'd say if you're asking yourself that question, maybe a microcontroller is what you want, but I don't know your application.
15:00:09 <Halcyon> Hardware store trip successful
15:00:20 <OEM> no, microcontroller is not what i need
15:00:23 <Halcyon> Ended up buying more than I needed but meh :)
15:00:39 <Ampera> Well I don't know what you need, because I don't know what you're doing.
15:01:22 <Ampera> All I can say is, switch to FPGAs when it becomes cheaper than discrete logic, as that's usually what it all comes down to.
15:01:53 <Ampera> what did you go to get, Halcyon?
15:02:45 <OEM> 'hardware'
15:03:12 <Ampera> oh shit, you right
15:03:17 <Halcyon> A lock box for ammo, a key safe and some masonary bolts
15:03:35 <Ampera> you know I was thinking, as a joke to myself, maybe you got gun stuff
15:03:40 <Ampera> never thought you actually would have
15:04:00 <OEM> funny enough, i replaced my gun safe a few weeks ago
15:04:03 <Halcyon> No, I did, I have a safe I need to install. It's getting inspected on Monday so I need to have everything done by then
15:04:51 <Ampera> is it just a shitty glock you're storing?
15:05:20 <Halcyon> Yes
15:05:33 <Ampera> :P
15:05:41 <coppice> OEM: If you want anything more than a few gates, a CPLD will generally be a cheaper solution that anything discrete
15:05:57 <ThunderSqueak> I really want a donut
15:06:18 <OEM> 5 doughnuts for 55p at the co-op
15:06:24 <Halcyon> If I had the choice I wouldn't have one at all
15:06:27 <Halcyon> But I need the safe for work
15:06:52 <OEM> Halcyon, same here. I have a rifle, as we live rurally, and have some animals
15:07:20 <Ampera> I like guns, and intend to collect a few later in life.
15:07:24 <OEM> every so often you need to 'dispatch' something
15:07:31 * ThunderSqueak purchased a new rifle today.
15:07:33 <Halcyon> Heheh yep
15:07:34 <ThunderSqueak> <.<
15:07:37 <Halcyon> OEM: Where are you?
15:07:38 <Ampera> what rifle, ThunderSqueak?
15:08:05 <ThunderSqueak> the rifle https://ruger.com/products/1022TargetLite/images/top.jpg
15:08:06 <OEM> today I am in London.
15:08:18 <OEM> but home is half a planet away
15:08:27 <Ampera> looks like a tiny shotgun, ThunderSqueak
15:08:31 <ThunderSqueak> haha
15:08:37 <ThunderSqueak> it is a very accurate 22
15:08:40 <Ampera> I like the stock material.
15:08:46 Quit: cappicard ([email protected]) Quit: Leaving
15:08:54 <ThunderSqueak> it weighs like 5lb
15:09:00 <Ampera> not bad
15:09:01 <ThunderSqueak> suprisingly light
15:09:38 <Ampera> Now that I've been thinking about it, I would quite like to get a Garand, but will probably have to wait a handful of years before I have the money to buy one, and the place to store one.
15:09:42 * Halcyon is in AU
15:09:50 <Halcyon> Everything is half a planet away from here
15:10:03 <Ampera> yes, including the other half of you, Halcyon
15:10:14 <coppice> Halcyon: NZ isn't
15:10:19 <Ampera> that joke could have been made better
15:10:20 <ThunderSqueak> Ampera, the scope https://electronicsirl.com/products/nikon-prostaff-rimfire-ii-4-12x40-scope-bdc-150-matte-16330?gclid=Cj0KCQiAxs3gBRDGARIsAO4tqq27-7b4NM9KKUECs0ERvvx34PGb9SuMLV9TZyKA8EQ_GsNjscEmrAwaAnxWEALw_wcB
15:10:23 * Ampera had intended to call Halcyon fat.
15:10:35 <ThunderSqueak> that is what went onto it
15:10:39 <Halcyon> If you knew me Ampera, you'd know I'm actually quite fit
15:10:42 * Ampera is new to guns, but finds that price to be a bit crazy.
15:10:48 <ThunderSqueak> lol
15:10:52 <ThunderSqueak> dont look up that gun then
15:11:12 <Ampera> M1 Garand from the US government is 750 bucks, with a 25 dollar club membership
15:11:22 <ThunderSqueak> https://ruger.com/products/1022TargetLite/models.html
15:11:41 <Ampera> Oh that's not that bad, ThunderSqueak.
15:11:54 <Ampera> Especially for being such a pretty gun.
15:12:22 <Ampera> tube mag?
15:12:36 <ThunderSqueak> no
15:13:07 <Ampera> what's the feed system, then>
15:13:10 <ThunderSqueak> https://media.mwstatic.com/product-images/880x660/Primary/252/252579.jpg
15:13:13 <ThunderSqueak> that
15:13:39 <Ampera> I'm not sure if that's a box mag, or some sort of strange rotary thing
15:13:43 <ThunderSqueak> could do this and be silly https://image.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/6/663369m2_ts.jpg
15:13:57 <Ampera> I want one of those.
15:14:25 <OEM> coppice, i've got a single D-FlipFlop, two inverters, and an address decoder
15:14:38 <OEM> and am contemplating if i should swap it out
15:15:14 <Halcyon> Ampera, if I need to download a print driver for Centos, do I want RPM or DEB ?
15:17:08 <OEM> centos is a redhat derivation.. i'd imagine it would probably be rpms
15:17:25 <Ampera> rpm
15:17:36 <Ampera> but I get all of my CUPS drivers off the AUR
15:19:27 <Ampera> of course, deb packages can be extracted and just copied into the computer root, if you want to do it the dirty way
15:21:45 <Halcyon> YAY Printer works :D
15:23:53 <Ampera> I need to get my Centronics header hooked up so I can connect my main computer to my dot matrix printer.
15:28:42 Join: ibiza ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
15:47:59 <Halcyon> I want a dot matrix printer
15:54:57 <IoTPanic> I want an Apple printer. Was very well known for reliability
15:55:05 <IoTPanic> I bet getting ink would be hard tho
15:55:38 <IoTPanic> And just worked, before the terrible time of windows printer-by-printer driver system
15:55:53 <IoTPanic> Drivers for HP printers worked with it
16:05:11 <steve30> hi
16:05:22 <IoTPanic> hi
16:06:11 <IoTPanic> And goodnight all
16:15:31 <ThunderSqueak> donut run complete
16:28:14 <Ampera> how are doughnuts, ThunderSqueak?
16:42:43 <ThunderSqueak> I am a donut now ; ;
16:43:12 <ThunderSqueak> seriously though, it was worth braving the blizzard and risking my life :P
16:43:43 <ThunderSqueak> also picked up plastic and put that over the bedroom window as it was drafty and the cold air kept drying me out at night
16:43:49 * ThunderSqueak would wilt.
16:56:18 <Ampera> I just broke my dual 3.5mm to single 3.5mm headset adaptor clean off inside of my tablet
16:56:22 <Ampera> that was fun getting that out.
16:56:22 <ThunderSqueak> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqG6nH4j9zw
16:56:33 * ThunderSqueak sings with.
16:58:34 <Ampera> Federal judge just ruled the ACA unconstitutional.
16:59:02 <Ampera> (note, not the US Supreme Court, it was a lower court).
17:27:38 Quit: Polesch ([email protected]) EOF from client
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18:29:48 Quit: Polesch ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
18:43:46 <OEM> and i doubt trumpface will make it to the end of his term
18:43:53 <OEM> the 'alt.truth' is catching up
19:10:35 Quit: ThunderSqueak ([email protected]) Quit: Leaving
19:31:01 Quit: OEM ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
19:57:01 <Ampera> Lol, Trump will stick around to the end, I wouldn't even be too surprised if he made it across the line to a second term.
19:57:23 <Ampera> It all depends on who his competition is, but if it ends up Trump v Hillary, I will personally vote Trump.
19:58:50 <Ampera> However, I doubt Hillary will be entrusted by the DNC to loose for them again. I do hope Bernie runs for 2020, though, I would very much get behind him.
20:43:50 <damian> for some reason i thought you were in the UK
20:44:27 <Ampera> Me?
20:45:38 <damian> yeah
20:45:45 <Ampera> thankfully not
20:45:59 <damian> haha
20:58:35 <Halcyon> Hey Damian
21:00:04 <Halcyon> BRB, installing Linux updates
21:01:04 <Halcyon> OK apparently it doesn't want to restart
21:04:20 <Ampera> sudo reboot
21:04:30 <Ampera> hi Halcyon
21:04:33 <Halcyon> No as in the GUI had a button for "Install and Reboot" but does nothing
21:04:39 <Halcyon> I have to manually do it from terminal
21:04:49 <Halcyon> Also hi
21:05:00 <Ampera> I've never used a graphical package manager, not on Arch anyways
21:05:11 <Halcyon> It pops up as a notification sometimes
21:05:12 <Ampera> mostly because the text one is so good, you don't need a graphical tool.
21:05:23 <Halcyon> Yes but it saves me from having to check all the teim
21:05:25 <Halcyon> time
21:05:30 <Halcyon> The GUI does periodic checks
21:05:37 <Ampera> I just do it whenever I feel like it.
21:05:57 <Ampera> There will literally be an update for a package every day, likely multiple times a day
21:06:00 <Halcyon> If I do a 'yum upgrade' will that do the base OS as well?
21:06:07 <Halcyon> Not just installed packages
21:06:27 <Ampera> Idk, I'd imagine not, because CentOS has various versions of base package configs
21:06:45 <Ampera> Arch does that, since it's rolling release, so all software, including the kernel, is a package, and can be upgraded all from the package manager.
21:07:11 <Halcyon> OK wow, I haven't updated in some time, 1522 packages need updating
21:08:11 <Ampera> holy shit
21:08:19 <Ampera> I don't even have that many installed.
21:08:31 <Halcyon> It's lots of little shit by the looks
21:08:59 <Halcyon> Samba clients.... firewalld.... selinux-policy
21:09:37 <Ampera> I have 866 packages installed.
21:09:44 <Halcyon> Not that far off
21:09:57 <Ampera> You literally have almost twice.
21:10:01 <Ampera> that's quite far off.
21:10:03 <Halcyon> Anyway pizza is in the over, need to go check
21:10:06 <Halcyon> *oven
21:23:50 Join: coppice_ ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
21:24:00 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o coppice_
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22:19:50 Quit: Guest|76182 ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
22:38:06 Join: Crazor ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
23:51:25 <DHess_US> <Ampera> There's a reason things like TTL chip based computers didn't exactly go anywhere in the consumer or even business fields.
23:51:33 <DHess_US> Yea, PDP and VAX never amounted to anything.
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