#eevblog - 2019-06-27 - AustNet Archive Project

// #eevblog — 2019-06-27

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« 2019-06-26 2019-06-28 »
23:53 Join: Nothing\ ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
25:59 <Nothing\> so i tore down that space heater with the glowing white spade connector in it, i think the wire was all melted, as far as i can tell it was rated for right around the power it would have seen, but i think because they didn't solder the spade connectors on maybe the extra resistance caused excessive joule heating or something
26:54 <K> hm, crimping beats solder, i think
27:08 <Nothing\> i would have figured crimp and solder to fill the gaps
27:12 <K> if done properly
27:23 <Nothing\> well, these i could pretty much slide off with my bare hands
27:37 <K> um solder on crimp does something bad wrt to stresses
27:44 <Nothing\> oh really?
27:48 <Nothing\> hrm well that's not it then
27:48 <K> at least i think i read that somewhere
28:03 <Nothing\> oh yeah i don't think i've ever seen a crimplable spade connector that was soldered
28:16 <Nothing\> i've seen those ones with the two prongs, but there's no way to crimp those
28:44 <Nothing\> well maybe the connector just wasn't properly rated for 1500 watts, it WAS just a standard sized connector, nothing skookum about it
29:00 <Nothing\> i dunno maybe .5-.75cm wide
29:44 <Nothing\> it's scary cuz i didn't even use it very much, probably no more than 5-10 hours of use, i'd just turn it on for 5-10 mins at a time cuz it put out so much heat for such a little room
29:50 <K> 1500 watts is standard tea cattle
29:56 <K> or whaddoyoa callit
30:10 <Nothing\> i know 1500 is the max for residential products
30:14 <Nothing\> at least in america
30:28 <K> um, 2.5kW in eu i think
30:34 <Nothing\> you look at anything like heating elements on an oven, space heaters, or microwaves you won't see them more than 1500
30:44 <Nothing\> yeah i figured it'd be higher in the EU with the higher mains voltage
30:59 <Nothing\> i envy you guys in that regard, although 50hz is rather awkward for clock purposes
31:12 <Nothing\> i'm sure there's a good reason for it though
31:28 <K> 50Hz is a good reason to use propper clocking, not one taken from mains eh
31:50 <Nothing\> yeah but a LOT of technologies rely on using mains frequency to keep time
32:31 <Nothing\> i remember hearing about the frequency on mainland europe going off for a bit, and as a result tons of clocks wound up with the wrong time, i forget the exact details or how they rectified it i just remember hearing about it on tom scott's channel or something
33:20 <K> yea, there is a bit of drift
33:24 <K> depending on load and whatnot
33:25 <Nothing\> i was gonna say if i weren't using a cxo, i'd probably just use an RC circuit to keep time, but that'd be all over the place with temperature
33:36 <K> hadn't bothered me ever though
34:02 <Nothing\> yeah i don't care so much if my clocks are accurate to the very second, hell i'm happy telling time just by the position of the sun
34:13 <Nothing\> which gets me within 15 minutes of the real time usually
35:31 <Nothing\> oh yeah, they're bringing back the c64!
35:36 <Nothing\> a REAL c64
35:50 <Nothing\> gonna retail for $120, but i dunno how it's gonna work with the disk drive or anything
36:06 <rust_collector> use the casette then
36:22 <Nothing\> https://gizmodo.com/a-commodore-64-clone-with-a-working-retro-keyboard-will-1835836875
36:30 <Nothing\> i'd imagine they'd probably use some sort of drive emulator
36:35 <K> casette?
36:37 <Nothing\> lol it's even gonna have 720p hdmi
36:40 <K> playback from soundcard
36:46 <Nothing\> K: can't do that with a c64
36:56 <Nothing\> it's a digital casette drive so it needs a digital signal
37:00 <K> ah
37:06 <K> not like zx then
37:23 <Nothing\> other micros of the day used an analog signal though so you could even just connect your phone through an audio cable and play back mp3s
37:29 <Nothing\> yeah unfortunately not
37:41 <Nothing\> the disk drive i think was basically it's own computer on the c64
37:50 <Nothing\> hence how expensive and bulky it was
38:01 <K> haven't seen a real c64 ever
38:13 <Nothing\> that's okay, i've never seen a real zx spectrum lol
38:28 <Nothing\> i've got a few z80 chips here though, i meant to make some blinken lights with them but never got around to it
38:38 <K> well, i have not seen a "Real" one either, but had a 48k clone
38:39 <DHess_US> I've got an 8008.
38:44 <Nothing\> i forgot i've got 6502s as well
39:03 <Nothing\> although i think the one's fake, it literally just says 6502 on it, then has an incorrect MOS logo
39:12 <Nothing\> at least, it's different from the logo on my other chip with more info on it
39:13 <DHess_US> I'm sure I have some Z80s somewhere.
39:28 <rust_collector> I think the disk drive was a second computer on the c64. I can not say where I saw that, but probably on youtube somewhere
39:34 <Nothing\> i REALLY need a way to organize my chips, they're all over the place atm
40:04 <DHess_US> Yes, the C64 is its own computer interfaces with a serial interface. You could load and run programs on the C64 disk drive in parallel.
40:10 <Nothing\> i just mostly keep them in little ziplock backs labeled with masking tape and throw them in a couple of small empty boxes from my ecigarettes
40:34 <Nothing\> DHess_US: i thought i heard that somewhere
40:44 <DHess_US> The Atari 800 had a similar external disk drive.
40:51 <Nothing\> what program would you wanna run on the disk drive though? other than maybe something to play the imperial march
41:08 <DHess_US> Which continbuted to their high cost compared to the Apple ][ series disk drives which had the controller inside the computer.
41:25 <DHess_US> Nothing\, it was not a useful or even documented feature.
41:45 <DHess_US> I only heard of it being used once in an actual application.
41:59 <Nothing\> the one problem i've had with my 6502 is all of the guides i came across for it require other chips from mos's 6500 series, so unless i can ever find a derelict apple ][ or c64 i don't think i'm gonna make much use of them
42:13 <Nothing\> unless i ever get around to learning enough to build my own computers, which i've kinda taken a hiatus on
42:14 <DHess_US> Um, why?
42:19 <Nothing\> why what?
42:34 <Ampera> hi Nothing\
42:35 <Nothing\> why can't i use it without the extra chips?
42:39 <Nothing\> hey Ampera, how you doing man?
42:41 <DHess_US> You would need to do that anyway. It isn't like 6502 peripheral chips did not require glue logic either.
42:49 <Ampera> just woke up
43:02 <DHess_US> Nothing prevents using 82xx peripherals designed for the 8080 with the 6502.
43:29 <Nothing\> DHess_US: that's true, except my own knowledge, but that can be fixed
43:42 <Nothing\> Ampera: ah i've been up for a couple of hours, had to hit up the clinic this morning
43:47 <DHess_US> All of those peripheral chips use some variation of the standard JEDEC SRAM interface.
43:53 <Nothing\> then i gotta go back this afternoon to see the doctor
44:08 <Ampera> oh nice, what did you break yourself in what manner now?
44:09 <Nothing\> DHess_US: heh it'd be kinda neat actually to make a zombie computer like that
44:22 <Nothing\> Ampera: oh nothing, just my regular appointments for my meds
44:34 <Ampera> ah
44:34 <DHess_US> That's why softcards for the Apple ][ were able to use the 6502 peripherals in an Apple ][ with an 8080 or Z80.
44:35 <Nothing\> thank goodness
44:46 <Nothing\> i'd love it if i had more health crap to deal with
44:50 <DHess_US> Nothing\, look up Apple Softcard.
44:57 <DHess_US> Or Microsoft Softcard.
45:01 <Nothing\> actually if it makes you feel better Ampera i DID almost throw up in my mom's car on the way lol
45:21 <DHess_US> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-80_SoftCard
45:31 <Ampera> not sure how that makes me feel better
45:32 <Nothing\> DHess_US: i guess if it works and you're not on contract with a specific company or otherwise obligated, why not, right?
45:53 <Nothing\> lol Ampera i'm not sure either
45:54 <Ampera> I, for whatever reason, every so often, will wake up in the middle of the night with severe stomach pains
46:00 <DHess_US> There were similar cards for the IBM PC so it could operate with a different processor.
46:01 <Nothing\> it's that damned pomegranate juice i drink
46:08 <Ampera> I'll feel like I need to vomit, but if I sit there and wait for like 10-30 minutes, it goes away
46:14 <Ampera> and if I go to vomit, it goes away
46:21 <Nothing\> every time i'll drink a glass, then 15-20 minutes later i get this intense nausea and stomach pain and want nothing more than to vomit
46:30 <Nothing\> but of course that's right after i take my meds, so i have to resist
46:40 <K> well stop doin' it then!
46:49 <Ampera> ^
46:49 <K> (the juice)
46:50 <Nothing\> Ampera: oh yeah i get that too, try sipping on some milk, it does wonders for my pain
47:05 <Nothing\> K: lol that's what my mom tells me, i just tell her it's supposed to be good for me
47:16 <Ampera> Interesting idea, issue is by the time I get up there to get the milk, I probably will have thrown up
47:18 <Nothing\> but yeah i really do need to find a better way to augment my liver's enzyme's
47:26 <Ampera> I have to keep very still otherwise it gets to the point where I can't contain it anymore
48:21 <Nothing\> when i felt like vomiting in the past i'd usually just do it, but nowadays it's so painful i'd rather not
48:49 <Nothing\> it never used to faze me, i remember one time drinking with my friends and playing guitar hero, i threw up in mid song and just kept playing, never missing a beat as i was throwing up everywhere lol
49:03 <Nothing\> then when it was done i took off my pants and used them to clean up the vomit, as you do
49:26 <Ampera> That would almost be metal if it were a real guitar and you were performing
49:28 <Nothing\> guess i'm not 21 anymore
49:34 <Nothing\> rofl yeah it woulda been
49:52 <Nothing\> better yet
49:55 <Ampera> Vomiting is unpleasant for me, usually since I tend to have very strong stomach acid
50:23 <Ampera> but once I do it, it's the best pain or nausea relief one can ask for, it's nuts, you feel perfectly fine for five minutes
50:27 <Ampera> even when sick
50:33 <Nothing\> oh man tell me about it, i had a spell last year where i vomited so bad and inhaled so much that i lost my voice for a week after cuz i burned my vocal cords so bad
51:04 <Nothing\> it makes it worse cuz when you feel that way, you don't wanna eat, but when your stomach's empty that's when you get all sorts of acid
51:23 <Nothing\> or just as bad as inhaling it is if you vomit out your nose, especially if it's acidic
51:42 <Ampera> oh fuck
51:47 <Nothing\> i dunno if it's cuz it's so forceful or if i'm tilting my head the wrong way, but it always seems to come out my nose when i throw up
51:48 <Ampera> I've done that
52:07 <Ampera> I can usually keep that from happening, but if I chunder while throwing up, the pressure has nowhere else to go
52:10 <Ampera> thankfully it doesn't go out my eyes
52:48 <Nothing\> oh man, i bet there are people who get that
53:24 <Nothing\> there was a guy in the 90's who was on this guinness show that ran for a short time who could pour milk up his nose and then squirt it out of his eyes, i bet he has that problem
53:30 <Ampera> I'm back home and am finding myself having to readjust to my desktop
53:43 <Nothing\> oh yeah you just went somewhere didn't you
53:46 <Ampera> since I was stuck on a tablet for so long, I got used to everything being tiny, and having to alt+tab into everything
53:50 <Ampera> connecticunt
53:55 <Nothing\> that's right, how was it?
54:11 <Ampera> I burned things
54:14 <Ampera> then I went to the ER
54:17 <Ampera> then I burned more things
54:28 <Nothing\> that sounds fun lol
54:31 <Nothing\> NOT
54:44 <Ampera> oh no the burning things was fun
54:48 <Ampera> going to the ER was not so fun
54:50 <Nothing\> oh yeah, that always is
54:54 <Ampera> I mean it wasn't unfun, more strange and interesting
54:56 <Nothing\> what'd you go to the ER for? i feel like i know
55:12 <Ampera> as diagnosed, anaphylaxis
55:16 <Nothing\> that's right
55:19 <Nothing\> now it's coming back to me
55:23 <Ampera> my own anecdotal belief, chemical burns
55:36 <Ampera> causing some sort of anaphylaxis
55:39 <Nothing\> apparently people who die of anaphylaxis poop themselves more frequently than most
55:45 <Ampera> the reason I say chemical burns is I burned a lot of things
55:48 <Ampera> including a tree
56:04 <Ampera> a tree that happened to have been /soaked/ in mosquito repellent
56:14 <Nothing\> yummy
56:26 <Ampera> so it wasn't a fast reaction, it took over 24 hours until I even went to the ER
56:50 <Ampera> and after I got epinephrine, IV benadryl, steroids, etc, my face started to peel
56:53 <Nothing\> when mine happened, it was pretty sudden, i went from fine to being painfully itchy everywhere in maybe an hour
56:53 <Ampera> as if it were burned
57:21 <Ampera> It wasn't much itchy either, it was more uncomfortable.
57:21 <Nothing\> i still can't believe how itchy i got, i had some hives on my thighs but not anywhere else really, so i wasn't even sure it was allergies
57:38 <Nothing\> all i really got was a few hives and this crazy intense itching unlike anything i've ever felt in my life
57:51 <Nothing\> i still have scars all over from scratching myself raw
57:52 <Ampera> This was a huge hives-like rash all over my face, ears, and a bit on my hands and lower arms
58:08 <Ampera> to the point where my eyes started to swell up
58:10 <Nothing\> yeah that's pretty alarming
58:15 <Nothing\> you ever been tested for allergies?
58:27 <Ampera> no
58:34 <Nothing\> i got tested as a kid, but never tested positive for anything so i assumed i have none, but something makes my hands super itchy from time to time
59:07 <Nothing\> the tops of my fingers or my knuckles will get really itchy and red, it's really annoying cuz it's such an awkward spot to scratch
59:24 <Nothing\> but i noticed if i take benedryl, it'll stop or prevent it all together
00:07 <Nothing\> although there are some things that can cause itching from a histamine response without any allergies, like pain killers, or some types of non-narcotic cough medicines
00:21 <Nothing\> so maybe something like that can happen without drugs
00:59 <Nothing\> oh man, i've been saving up for a nintendo switch for months, i'm real close to being able to afford one now
01:09 <Nothing\> just in time too, i just found out there's a mario maker 2 now
01:17 <Ampera> did you fix your court bullshit yet?
01:31 <Nothing\> oh hell no, that's still just as going nowhere now as it always was
02:02 <Nothing\> got a resolution meeting with my lawyer and the crown attorney (like a canadian district attorney) on friday but i doubt it's gonna amount to anything
02:31 <Nothing\> i'm in no rush though, one of my rights as a canadian citizen is the right to a speedy trial, if said right is violated as it is being now,, perhaps there will be a chance i could have it thrown out
03:10 <Ampera> lol that's a US "right" too
03:12 <Nothing\> for some reason the figure of 2 years sticks out in my mind, but it'll only be 1 year this friday since my arrest, so i've still got a ways to go, and tbh the stress of having this hang over me constantly really gets to me sometimes
03:19 <Ampera> but I'd be mildly shocked if that was ever used to dismiss a case
03:24 <Nothing\> yeah rights are a fucking joke though
03:24 <Ampera> unless it was about someone stealing a loaf of bread
03:58 <Nothing\> like i was thinking, if i'm presumed innocent until proven guilty in court, why the hell did they throw me in jail, and why did they use definitive language in my arrainment like "he did" instead of "is accused of doing"
04:11 <Nothing\> seems a funny thing to do to an innocent man
04:32 <Nothing\> i'm innocent, but they can detain me whenever the hell they want
04:43 <Nothing\> and then force me to live on their terms when i'm allowed out
04:47 <Nothing\> ie bail conditions
04:57 <Ampera> in other news I have a new car
05:00 <Nothing\> although i'm surprised at how little that's been enforced, which is not at all
05:03 <Nothing\> oh dude, that's awesome
05:05 <Nothing\> congrats
05:16 <Ampera> 1993 Buck Regal Custom
05:25 <Ampera> with a 3.8L V6
05:35 <Nothing\> i feel bad that i still don't have my licence and i'm in my mid 30s, but i realized if i did get my licence, i'd probably have a slew of DUIs on my hands
05:41 <Nothing\> nice dude
05:53 <Nothing\> sounds expensive on gas, though
05:53 <Ampera> I could get my license no problem
05:55 <Ampera> that's not hard to do
06:04 <Ampera> the gas isn't even the problem that much really
06:07 <Ampera> gas is still cheap here
06:13 <Nothing\> no it's not that that's really been a problem, although the cost has been prohibitive
06:18 <Nothing\> it's something like $160 for the test
06:19 <Ampera> a thousands per year insurance bill is the problem
07:12 <Nothing\> i mean all you have to do is go in and do a written, 10 question test that hasn't changed since i was a teenager, then they give you a G1 which lets you drive so long as somebody with 5 years experience and a G class licence is in the passenger seat, and you can't use any 400 series highways, which are like our interstates
07:55 <Nothing\> then after a year do your road test to get your G2 which has some restrictions, like you can't have ANY alcohol in you, and some other pretty minor things, then i'm not sure what testing is involved, but after some time of that you get your G class
07:58 <Ampera> None of that here, when I turn 18, I do a written and physical test in a drivers ed class
08:04 <Ampera> if I pass, full license
08:09 <Nothing\> nice
08:19 <Ampera> applicable to all 50 state, all highways, and most light vehicle types
08:34 <Nothing\> yeah here driver's ed is completely separate from the testing places, but it's still beneficial because insurance companies will give you a break if you've done driver's ed
08:51 <Ampera> I'd like to learn stick, but I don't have a stick car, so it's A. not that useful to me, B. impossible
09:03 <Nothing\> i'd like to learn stick, too
09:17 <Nothing\> it doesn't seem that hard, really, though it does seem to take some coordination
09:19 <Ampera> I mean I know how it works, and if I /had/ to, I could probably figure it out as I went
09:44 <Nothing\> my friend when i was a teen had a toyota tercel that was standard, so i got to drive it once in a while and it wasn't THAT hard
09:44 <Ampera> but since my car is a 4 speed automatic, I don't have a clutch pedal anyways
10:12 <Nothing\> you want a challenge, learn to drive those big trucks with like 12 speeds
10:27 <Ampera> For that I would need a special license
10:37 <Nothing\> indeed
10:39 <Ampera> along with a load of certifications and approval bullshit to even get hired by a place that would let me do that
10:45 <Nothing\> man, i'd love to get one of those big RVs
10:56 <Nothing\> that and to pay somebody to drive it around while i slept in the back
11:12 <Nothing\> the sensation of driving is so relaxing to me, cuts right through any anxiety
11:21 <Nothing\> any sort of rocking or gentle motion like that does
11:31 <Ampera> I'm still young, so this opinion is bound to change, but I like the idea of driving myself places, and if I had the money, would not pay someone to do it for me
11:39 <Nothing\> i was thinking a house boat would be perfect for me cuz the rocking of the waves would lull me to sleep
11:53 <Ampera> Nothing\, did you see the RasPi 4 released?
12:02 <Nothing\> Ampera: nah it's not a young thing, that's an all the time thing, driving is freedom, the freedom to go where you want when you want without any restrictions
12:06 <Ampera> It's on an order of magnitude faster than the RasPi 3 and comes with a 4GB variant
12:11 <Nothing\> oh yeah i did see that, although it was kind of disappointing
12:20 <Ampera> How is the Pi 4 disappointing?
12:22 <Nothing\> yeah i liked the physical ram and faster cpu, but that's about all there was
12:27 <Ampera> What?
12:29 <Nothing\> all there was that got me excited
12:35 <Ampera> You have USB 3, Gigabit ethernet, 802.11ac
12:36 <Nothing\> i know there was a lot more to it
12:51 <Ampera> Hardware HEVC decode for video up to 4k@60
12:54 <Nothing\> it's a type 2 usb connector too, so i'd need to get a new power supply
12:57 <Nothing\> er type c
13:05 <DHess_US> Id' rather have a BeagleBone Black with more RAM and MHz.
13:06 <Ampera> I mean my PC can't even do software HEVC decode at 4k@60 I don't believe
13:08 <Nothing\> and micro HDMI, so i'd need an adapter or micro to normal cord
13:19 <Ampera> which is pennies off Amazon
13:43 <Nothing\> DHess_US: how easy was it to set up the OS on that? i've been wanting to get an alternative with hardware video and physical RAM but i've been concerned about not being able to get an OS on it and it just collecting dust
13:45 <DHess_US> I'm seeing a lot of complaints about the USB and Ethernet controllers on the Pi 4.
13:59 <Ampera> DHess_US, how is the black any faster, unless I have an outdated spec sheet here
14:01 <Nothing\> Ampera: canadian amazon is overpriced and not really practical, although ali express would have them
14:14 <Ampera> 1Ghz ARM cortex A8, 512MB RAM
14:18 <DHess_US> Ampera, it has two I/O processors.
14:19 <Nothing\> i found out yesterday ali express has the type of power cords i need for my ps3 for like $1
14:33 <Nothing\> or what about those orange pis
14:42 <DHess_US> So you can interface a pair of 200MHz 8 bit parallel ADCs to it.
14:46 <Nothing\> i heard those are a hgood alternative, although hardware wise i think they're on par with raspberry pis
14:55 <Ampera> DHess_US, might be good for being an overpowered microcontroller, but the RasPi has often been more about being a tiny PC.
15:12 <DHess_US> Ampera, up until you want to interface some fast I/O to the Pi.
15:14 <Nothing\> heh i still have this ADC chip here i got like a year ago that i never wound up doing anything with it
15:21 <Ampera> The only alternative I can even see is the Jetson Nano, which is now slower in CPU than the Pi, but has a real GPU on it
15:31 Quit: hsn93 ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
15:32 <Ampera> DHess_US, USB 3?
15:39 <Nothing\> it's really nice, it's got a built in 8 channel mux, so you can connect up to 8 devices to it
15:45 <DHess_US> Oh, great. How do I interface USB 3 to a fast ADC?
15:56 <Ampera> how fast of an ADC do you want
16:06 <DHess_US> 100 to 200 MHz
16:11 <Nothing\> the pi 4 has usb 2 on it as well
16:14 <Ampera> well that's more than 192khz
16:18 <Nothing\> 2 of the ports are usb 2 and 2 are 3
16:20 <Ampera> what sort of sample size?
16:22 <DHess_US> I'm not interested in sound.
16:31 <DHess_US> 200 MHz 8 bits or 100 MHz 16 bits.
16:33 <Nothing\> DHess_US: transducer?
16:38 <DHess_US> Nothing\, DSO
16:41 <Nothing\> ah
16:48 <Ampera> lemme grab my calculator here :P
16:54 <DHess_US> Or tansient digitizers. Pick.
17:04 <Ampera> well, actually, 200MB/s
17:20 <Nothing\> i need to find my thermometer ICs, i had a buncha them somewhere but can't find them now
17:22 <DHess_US> The problem is that interfacing a fast ADC is trivial on the BeagleBone and it doesn't even cost any ARM performance but very difficult on the Pi.
17:32 <Ampera> 1.6gbps
17:55 <Nothing\> i gave my mom my meds to hang onto and she puts them in her purse but then she leaves her purse in the car where it gets hot, so i was gonna make a circuit that beeps incessantly if it's warmer than say, 30c
18:09 <DHess_US> https://beagleboard.org/pru
18:15 <Nothing\> oh man, and get this
18:49 <Ampera> I mean that is neat, but that's not what I'd use a Pi for
19:00 <Nothing\> so one of the first problems i ran into with a 555 timer when i got into electronics 2 years ago was how to turn it off on demand, i figured you could just put a switch on vcc and cut it off, but of course an IC will just try to sink current from one of the other pins if you do that
19:02 <Ampera> I'd be interested in it replacing my Mac Mini for use as a DAW
19:14 <Nothing\> it didn't occur to me until just yesterday that i could just use the reset pin to shut it off
19:20 <DHess_US> Ihave lots of options to replace the Pi. But I don't have anythign comparable to a BeagleBone.
19:42 <Nothing\> i got so used to using the standard layout of a 555 timer in astable mode that i didn't even think to use the reset pin for anything
19:56 <Nothing\> i got so used to just jumpering it to vcc and not giving it any thought
20:43 <Nothing\> huh i wonder why one of the cores on my pi is maxed out
20:59 <Nothing\> i hate it when that happens, it runs at like 60c WITH a heatsink when just one core is maxed out
21:26 <Nothing\> i get the sense the adhesive wasn't very thermally conductive though, i think i might pry them up and try putting thermal paste on them if i can find some
21:47 <Nothing\> it was just a transparent adhesive, so it didn't have any metals or anything embedded in it
21:59 <Nothing\> something akin to what you'd see on a sticker
22:16 <Nothing\> tbh i don't even think i've noticed a difference since i put them on
22:56 <Nothing\> i dunno how on earth anyone can run these things in a case though, i got a case for mine with good ventilation and even just maxing out one core brought it up hot enough to force it to underclock
24:23 <Nothing\> oooh i know what i should do, i should make an LCD module circuit and have a play with it, just a simple thing with one of those 1602s, using dip switches to input the data
24:49 <Ampera> This might be a stupid question, but does all LAN traffic always go through the router?
24:57 <Nothing\> i was trying to make a program in this 8051 simulator i have last night to use one of those 2x16 displays and i kept getting confused about it cuz i forgot how to use them
25:03 <Ampera> or if there is a more efficient way to move that traffic, will it take that?
25:35 <Ampera> as in, if there is a normal, unmanaged switch connected to the router, and two computers on the switch wish to communicate with each other, will it go from PC -> Switch -> PC or from PC -> Switch -> Router -> Switch -> PC
26:00 <Nothing\> Ampera: that reminds me, i dismantled this ethernet switch i have the other day, and inside, right after the rj45 jacks, it has these modules which have transformers in them for some reason, for the data
26:19 <Nothing\> can't for the life of me figure out what they're for
26:50 <rust_collector> I do believe the switch will hook up the computers directly, without the router. I know nothing
27:11 <rust_collector> not you nothing, just nothing
27:26 <Nothing\> i know :P
27:43 <Nothing\> i assume when somebody says nothing they mean the word and when they say Nothing\ they're talking to me
27:49 <Nothing\> the slash makes all the difference :P
28:14 <Nothing\> yeah, here are the modules i found in it
28:16 <Nothing\> https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf-file/1373471/FPE/H20202DL-R/1
29:10 <Nothing\> i'm wondering if maybe that's how they duplicate the data onto multiple channels simultaneously, but you would think the inductance would cause all sorts of distortion on the signal
31:08 <Nothing\> plus, couldn't you just use a sort of fork in the road type wiring to output a single data channel onto 2 channels? even if you just used an amplifier afterwards to recover any losses
31:13 <Nothing\> i'm probably overthinking this
32:48 <rust_collector> I thought those were just for galvanic isolation, so different things can be at different voltages? In my not so overthought way
33:51 <Nothing\> i'm not sure, i really have no clue when it comes to anything to do with data or networking
34:10 <Nothing\> just feels like induction and digital data are two things that don't go well together
34:23 <rust_collector> neither do I. but hey
35:00 <Nothing\> yeah, a man can speculate
35:39 <Nothing\> heh tearing down all of these things i keep getting hold of, i'm amassing a pretty big collection of motors
36:00 <Nothing\> didn't realize how many things had motors in them
40:55 <Nothing\> hey what do you call those piezo buzzers that are just the piezo speaker, but no circuitry to actually make them buzz, i can't seem to find them on ali express
45:07 <mattinx> piezo sounder?
47:11 <Nothing\> ugh ali express's site is so terrible
47:26 <Nothing\> it slows everything to a crawl whenever it tries to load, and struggles to load entirely
47:52 <Nothing\> oh yeah, sounder worked, thanks mattinx
48:00 <Nothing\> i never woulda thought of that
49:46 * Nothing\ stares at an empty breadboard trying to think of what to do with it
50:25 <Nothing\> well, i've got these lm334 current sources, maybe i could make a triangle wave generator
51:07 <rust_collector> I have a bunch of those little stepper motors, that needs something to do
51:09 <Nothing\> every time i think of triangle wave it makes me think of that less than giants song about particle man, whatever it was called, maybe particle man
51:47 <Nothing\> rust_collector: i don't think i actually have any of those, as far as i know mine are all brushed DC motors, though i think i remember finding one brushless one a while back but i dunno what happened to it
52:04 <Nothing\> motors don't interest me enough to figure out how to make/use an ESC to drive a brushless motor
52:08 <Nothing\> or a stepper
52:48 <rust_collector> I was thinking about making a small mini cnc sort of router, but... we will see
52:56 <Nothing\> that'd be cool
53:16 <rust_collector> it only needs to be big enough to make something of half postcard size
53:28 <rust_collector> so I guess these small motors could work
53:43 <Nothing\> see if i wanted to make something like that, i would have no idea where to even start with making the frame and everything you mount the motors in and that
54:13 <rust_collector> I am a metal sort of guy, it is the electronics and programming that makes me sad
54:34 <Nothing\> i like the hands on electronics stuff, but the programming is what throws me
55:07 <Nothing\> part of why i got into electronics is because i suck at programming, but now i realize programming is pretty closely tied to electronics
55:32 <Nothing\> lol the other reason i got into electronics is because i find math difficult and wanted something i THOUGHT didn't require a lot of math
55:34 <Nothing\> oh how wrong i was
56:36 <Nothing\> it worked out nicely though cuz electronics has introduced me to a lot of really abstract concepts in math that give people a lot of trouble because of how intangible they are, but i learned them all in the context of applying them to electronics, so it's been a lot easier to grasp the concepts, like complex numbers
58:55 <Nothing\> so before i get into using these current sources, lemme run something by you guys, i always heard vaguely, or got the sense that when using a current source, for some reason it's a really bad idea to leave the circuit open, is there any truth to this?
59:17 <Nothing\> i mean, i'm gonna go through the datasheet first before i use these, but i just wanted to make sure
59:38 <Nothing\> i know in circuitmod any time you place a current source, the simulation will stop immediately until you close the circuit
00:13 <Nothing\> i'm wondering if maybe it's because it sees this infinite resistance and as a result tries to up the voltage way way up in a vain attempt to maintain the current
01:48 <rust_collector> sounds plausible to me
19:58 <Ampera> I am doing something interesting to my mac mini
20:28 <Ampera> since my mac mini cannot boot from USB, and cannot boot my Arch Linux CDs nor my fancy boot CDs (which could then boot a USB stick), but I can boot into a debian installer
20:44 <Ampera> I'm going to try to use a debian shell instance to install arch linux onto the mini
31:43 <DHess_US> I'm burning a CD with pfsense so I can install it on a 4GB CF card.
32:11 <DHess_US> My CD burner can't go slower than x16
32:53 <Ampera> I forget how slow mine can go, but that's not uncommon for burning
33:01 <Ampera> I think might be as slow as 8x, but 16x might be the limit
33:16 <Ampera> I usually burn at 32x, not too low, not too high, avoids most errors
33:20 <Ampera> and I use good quality verbatims
38:47 <DHess_US> Well, that sure did not work.
39:13 <DHess_US> Tried booting it on my backup workstation and instead of booting from CDROM, it booted SCSI anyway.
44:29 <DHess_US> Well, got it to boot but the DVD-RAM drive is very unhappy with the CR+R.
45:57 <DHess_US> Hmm, apparently I can burn a CD ISO to DVD. I'll try that next.
53:17 <DHess_US> Ok, that didn't work at all.
53:33 <DHess_US> I guess I will do the installation on the test system directly.
04:30 <rust_collector> I wonder why the debian installer boots on that
15:36 <DHess_US> Got pfsense to boot. Yay! But they removed the option to install to disk? \o/
26:52 <DHess_US> I am not sure what I am going to try next but it will not be pretty.
58:34 <rust_collector> I just assembled the new sofa
58:54 <rust_collector> it certainly takes a lot of space
16:30 <DHess_US> What an SSD from 2002 might look like, https://i.ibb.co/p3xtWTS/IMG-0353.jpg
18:35 <rust_collector> those cf cards are getting expensive now
19:50 <DHess_US> Legacy technology
20:01 <DHess_US> But you can get IDE to SD and use that instead
20:10 <T3sl4> did they have 4GBs in 2002? my old camera came with a 128MB
20:50 <rust_collector> I looked at those when I was fattening up my thin client, but it was cheaperI ended up with an ide to msata adapter, and a china special 16gig ssd
21:53 <coppice_> T3sl4: in 2002 a 4GB flash device was uneconomic, and now my car's nav system does 47GB updates
22:25 <DHess_US> Oh, I'm not sure. I guess I could look up when I bought it.
22:31 <T3sl4> it's like moore's law is a thing
22:54 <DHess_US> Not anymore.
23:19 <coppice_> T3sl4: The moore transistors, the moore bloat in the data?
23:31 <T3sl4> yeep
23:40 <DHess_US> There was a while there where I was replacing old IDE hard drives in old hardware with those instead of trying to get new disks to work.
25:04 <DHess_US> Ok, got an image on USB but I don't thik that hardware will boot it. Going to burn the image directly to that CF next.
25:57 <DHess_US> Last time I did this, I was able to burn the image from the boot CD but they removed that function.
26:26 <DHess_US> Here is a great discussion abut Moore's Law as of 2016, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbdwbsBbODM
41:49 <coppice_> There either needs to be a breakthrough in power consumption per transistor, or a lot of massive new applications that require a lot of transistors which don't do very much :)
49:36 <T3sl4> anyone doing anything with adiabatic cmos?
53:16 <DHess_US> coppice_, watch the video.
53:26 <DHess_US> It isn't about performance. Moore's law doesn't care about that.
53:38 <DHess_US> It is only about the economics of integration which means price per transistor.
54:18 <DHess_US> Performance is tied to power *not* but that wasn't always the case and it is irrelevant for Moore's Law.
54:23 <DHess_US> err, *now*
56:51 <T3sl4> seems the future will be fuckoff massive chips/stacks, somehow reduced in power so much that it's not a problem, and that the prop delay will be so long that it will be necessary to build one-cycle or pipelined ALUs and such, which will require exponentially more transistors but that that will be allowed by 3D construction
58:42 <coppice_> without a heat reduction its all about have more and more stuff doing less and less useful work
58:58 <T3sl4> it would perhaps be the death of RISC, that a single instruction cycle (or whatever its equivalent) takes maybe ~ns then, but there are so many more and powerful instructions that are all that fast, that it remains competetive
59:37 <T3sl4> coppice_: anyone doing anything with low loss or charge recovery or adiabatic logic?
01:51 <coppice_> T3sl4: shuttling charge, rather than just dumping it, has beene experimented with over the decades, but doesn't seem to get very far
06:11 Join: Guest|46252 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
07:07 Quit: Guest|46252 ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
11:19 <DHess_US> 3D construction is not feasible because power density limits have already been reached except in the lowest power applications.
11:35 <DHess_US> Multiple chips on a substrate like AMD is doing is one path forward for Moore's Law.
12:12 <DHess_US> Price per transistors can be lowered by scaling, increasing die area per chip, and by using more chips.
13:15 <DHess_US> The old ARM ISA was built like you are suggesting T3sl4. Instruction complexity was increased because performance was limited by memory access time.
13:41 <T3sl4> seems like 3D needs something like adiabatic logic, but that no one is seriously considering either until we've exhausted the depths of 2D and few-layers tech
14:25 <DHess_US> The same applies now. Load to use latency depends on cache latency. If the cache is slowed down to provide a shorter load to use latency reducing pipeline stages and mispredict penalty, then instruction complexity can be increased which is what ARM did and why ARM was not RISC.
14:41 <T3sl4> DHess_US: i always found "RISC" to be a somewhat amusing notion, because every single very-popular ISA has been extended so many times that they're practically equivalent on a general level
14:54 <DHess_US> That isn't what RISC refers to.
15:15 <T3sl4> excuse me for asking the dictionary what "Reduced" means ;)
15:17 <DHess_US> It isn't the number of instructions. It is reducign instruction complexity.
15:33 <DHess_US> It isn't reducing the number of instructions. It is reducing the complexity of each instruction.
15:50 <DHess_US> So instructions only do the simplest things like load or store but not load or store and compute, etc.
15:56 <DHess_US> That makes for easy pipelining.
16:02 <DHess_US> And high clock rates.
16:29 <DHess_US> But it also yields poor instruction size which makes caches smaller and instruction bandwidth higher.
16:43 <DHess_US> Which is why ARM came out with Thumb.
17:02 <DHess_US> ARM was not competative with Intel or their target maret without Thumb.
18:13 <DHess_US> hehe. "Thumb is the useful wee thing on the endof your ARM." - Dave Jaggar
18:23 <T3sl4> heh
18:40 <DHess_US> He was the designer for Thumb and basically all modern ARM designs.
19:10 <DHess_US> Well, except for ARM64. I haven't studied that but I am sure it was a step backwards.
21:52 <T3sl4> i haven't looked at any of the x86 extensions to see if their memory access patterns or instruction encoding are more sensible
21:57 <T3sl4> i'm guessing they are?
24:11 <Nothing\> ah i just had to lock myself out of the house on the hottest day of the year
24:32 * T3sl4 shoots Nothing\ with a toy water gun
24:35 <Nothing\> thank heavens the rental office was just down the road and were willing to give me a key but still, that was unsettling
24:54 <Nothing\> T3sl4: lol i just realized i could/should have poured my bottle of water on my head, or some of it anyways
25:04 <Nothing\> that woulda felt wonderful
25:33 <Nothing\> ah well i'm just grateful to be indoors, and my house is nice and cool too cuz i left the windows open all night and closed them as soon as the sun came up
25:33 <DHess_US> T3sl4, AVX sort of makes them sane for vector instructions.
26:02 <Nothing\> that reminds me, i've been wanting to look into the architecture of specialty processors, like vector cpus
26:13 <DHess_US> Neither CF or USB would succesfully boot. It think I have the wrong image.
27:01 <Nothing\> arm is nice and all, until it gets dr strangelove syndrome and tries to strangle you
27:15 <Nothing\> that'd be a funny easter egg actually
27:31 <Nothing\> if they had some deal where you put two of them together and one becomes autonomous and tries to kill the other somehow
27:36 * T3sl4 sticks an x86 inside Nothing\'s ARM
27:42 <Nothing\> maybe too obscure a reference
27:51 <Nothing\> heh
28:05 <Nothing\> speaking of ARM, what do you guys think of the new raspberry pi 4s?
28:39 <Nothing\> i was kind of expecting a bigger upgrade to the hardware, there wasn't anything that got me particularly excited, but physical memory would be nice, and i'm sure the extra processing power will go a long way
28:50 <Nothing\> part of me was hoping for hardware video
29:27 <Nothing\> if they can't include hardware video processing for cost reasons, they should at least make a shield or module that DOES give you that option
29:47 <Nothing\> give us a choice at least, ya know?
29:49 <DHess_US> More memmory is nice. I hear bad things about the ethernet and USB though.
30:04 <Nothing\> really? oh yeah i guess the true gigabit is nice too
30:17 <Nothing\> although tbh my own pi slows to a crawl when i utilize as much bandwidth as it can
30:19 <DHess_US> They can't include harware video because of NDA.
30:34 <Nothing\> it's limited more by its processing power than the actual bandwidth, at least with raspbian
30:35 <Nothing\> NDA?
30:48 <DHess_US> Broadcom won't release full documentation and prevent the Pi foundation from doing so either.
30:50 <DHess_US> So fuck them.
31:06 <DHess_US> non disclosure agreement
31:21 <Nothing\> actually my pi is pretty well useless when i'm using a lot of bandwidth, any time i download a torrent i just let it be and do other things
31:23 <T3sl4> people are surely working to RE it?
31:34 <Nothing\> frankly the multicore cpu is a joke
31:37 <DHess_US> Yes, but they shouldn't have to and it is hard to do.
31:46 <T3sl4> yep
31:54 <DHess_US> Broadcom is no better than nVidia.
31:57 <Nothing\> i very rarely see it use more than one core at a time, and when it does only use one core it gets up to 60+c
32:15 <DHess_US> Nothing\, is that with a real heat sink.
32:16 <DHess_US> ?
32:17 <Nothing\> i guess it's nice for multitasking, but raspbian doesn't seem to utilize them very well as far as i can tell
32:52 <Nothing\> DHess_US: yeah i'ts got a little heatsink i threw on it, but i'm not sure about the paste that was on it
32:53 <DHess_US> Apparently I've been installing the wrong pfsense image. No wonder it doesn't work.
33:08 <Nothing\> it was just this transparent sticky stuff, like what you get on a sticker, it didn't seem to have any metals or anything embedded in it
33:14 <Nothing\> just seemed like a standard adhesive rather than thermal
33:16 <DHess_US> The board I saw looks like you have to use a thermal epoxy to glue the heat sink son.
33:27 <DHess_US> Oh, that's not right.
33:34 <Nothing\> yeah i've got thremal paste somewhere i'd like to try on it
33:47 <Nothing\> i haven't really noticed a huge difference since i put heat sinks on it
33:50 <DHess_US> The problem with thermal paste is that then you need some way to hold the heat sink on.
34:12 <Nothing\> yeah that's what i was thinking, but i figured i could just leave it loose cuz i don't move it around anyways
34:13 <DHess_US> They make thermal epoxy so you can just glue the heat sink on.
34:29 <Nothing\> but then i can see a stray glob of thermal paste causing a short if the package has leads
34:31 <DHess_US> It should make a big difference.
34:32 <T3sl4> or at least thermal adhesive so the heatsink is gooped on with a stickum material
34:48 <Nothing\> yeah i think this is thermal paste
34:49 <DHess_US> Huh? Thermal epoxy is not conductive.
34:54 <Nothing\> i dunno if it's adhesive or what
35:01 <DHess_US> Good thermal paste isn't conductive either.
35:05 <Nothing\> DHess_US: oh you mean electrically?
35:12 <Nothing\> lol i was gonna say why do they call it THERMAL
35:25 <T3sl4> sometimes it's both
35:29 <Nothing\> huh i woulda figured it would be conductive on account of the highly conductive metal embedded in it
35:32 <DHess_US> hehe. I had to order thermal compound to put my win 10 test system togehter because I lost my can of Wakefield. I found my can of Wakefield yesteerday.
35:34 <T3sl4> usually the filler is ceramic
35:53 <DHess_US> Nothing\, yes. Most thermal epoxy and thermal paste is not conductive.
35:58 <T3sl4> DHess_US: you threatened it with replacement, the surest way to bring it out of hiding
36:01 <Nothing\> but i guess if the metal particles are suspended within an electrically insulating fluid or paste it shouldn't conduct
36:24 <DHess_US> T3sl4, it was hiding with my military Weller soldering iron and heat gun.
36:41 <Nothing\> it just seems to me that electrical and thermal conductivity go hand in hand, like you can't affect one without affecting the other
36:47 <DHess_US> Nothing\, the two common materials are zinc oxide and aluminum oxide.
37:04 <Nothing\> for the insulating filler?
37:06 <DHess_US> Or sometimes diamond.
37:07 <Nothing\> or for thermal conductivity?
37:23 <Nothing\> the paste i have is i think 10% silver
37:23 <DHess_US> For thermal conductivity. The filler is just silicon oil or similiar.
37:30 <Nothing\> i'm not sure what the rest of it is
37:33 <DHess_US> Yea, metalic pastes are kind of dumb.
37:49 <Nothing\> i bought it with my first computer when i upgraded the cpu and haven't needed another one since
37:54 <DHess_US> They sound good but don't really work any better than zinc and aluminum oxide.
37:56 <Nothing\> and it's only maybe a 2ml syringe
37:58 <Nothing\> not even
38:08 <Nothing\> yeah it was really messy, too
38:16 <Nothing\> although i was overzealous in applying it back then
38:47 <Nothing\> so i noticed an odd quirk with my one multimeter the other night
38:49 <Nothing\> it ticks
39:02 <Nothing\> each time it updates the screen, it makes a very quiet ticking sound
39:20 <Nothing\> one of those uni-t ut61e's
40:10 <Nothing\> it's so quiet in my house so i'm always noticing very faint, but unusual sounds coming from electronics, like i noticed my one tv remote will make a very quiet beep and then buzz while i hold a button down
40:39 <Nothing\> or i hear all sorts of switch mode power supplies
41:24 <Nothing\> but i can't figure out what would make my meter tick like that, maybe the piezo sounder is catching some faint signal off of something
41:35 <Nothing\> it just gives off one tick for each time the display updates
42:15 <DHess_US> Maybe it is a bomb.
42:43 <Nothing\> if it is i think it woulda gone off that one time i tried to check the mains frequency
43:25 <Nothing\> i tripped the spark gaps in it cuz it buzzed very angrily, apparently it has a separate setting for checking higher voltage frequencies but there's no way to tell from the dial on it, it just looks like it has 2 frequency settings
43:44 <Nothing\> actually it has about 4 or 5 different positions for frequency, for some reason
44:31 <Nothing\> now let's see if i can find this to-92 temperature diode amongst my boxes of ICs :/ i really need to organize better
44:58 <Nothing\> i've been dying for one of those things that has all of those little pull-out drawers, but i dunno what they're called so i can't search for them or ask at a hardware store
45:11 <DHess_US> Akro Mills
45:20 <Nothing\> i have some jeweler's cases but i'm iffy about putting them in a plastic box like that
45:27 <Nothing\> akro mills? is that a company that makes them or something?
45:32 <DHess_US> Yes
45:45 <Nothing\> i'll look into that, cuz one of these would be sooo useful
46:36 <Nothing\> this one guy on a youtube channel said he kept his ICs in a plastic jeweler's case and they all got destroyed from ESD cuz it got shaken up and the static destroyed them, but that doesn't sound right to me
47:08 <DHess_US> Put anti-static foam inside the drawers.
47:24 <DHess_US> What good thermal paste might look like, https://i.ibb.co/9cKKSWX/IMG-0354.jpg
47:43 <Nothing\> actually i wondered about lining them with metalized tape or al foil or something
47:49 <Nothing\> but somebody told me that was overkill for a hobbyist
48:43 <Nothing\> that's another thing i need though is a source for ESD foam, cuz i'm just using whatever ESD protection i get with my package but they don't always send proper ESD protection, so i'm stuck cramming my chips into tiny blocks of foam
49:04 <DHess_US> Mouser and digi-key sell rolls of it.
49:09 <Nothing\> and the only static dissipative foam i can find on ali express is this really dense, black stuff that is not good at all for putting ICs in
49:14 <Nothing\> oooh that's good to know
49:57 <DHess_US> It's just a few dollars for a roll of it.
50:04 <Nothing\> still, i haven't had a single chip die on me in 2 years, well more like 1 year and a bit since i've been using chips but still
50:20 <Nothing\> i get the sense that the risk from ESD is overstated more often than not, at least in hobbyist circles
50:31 <DHess_US> Paper egg cartons work for holdign parts also
50:37 <Nothing\> oooh that's a great idea
51:23 <Nothing\> except my mom nedes those cuz she's got all of these little tea figures in this big ziplock bag and they're worth like $5-$20 a piece so i keep telling her to store them in egg crates or something so they don't get destroyed
53:08 <Nothing\> i hate it when i get into one of these moods, i wanna make something on a breadboard but i can't for the life of me think of what
53:37 <Nothing\> but even when i do figure out what i want to do, i just end up reading datasheets to prepare for it and then i get sidetracked with something else, stupid attention span
54:37 <Nothing\> maybe a binary to 7 segment display decoder, i've always avoided 7 segment displays cuz they're a pain in the ass to wire up
57:36 Quit: desu ([email protected]) Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in
58:17 Join: desu ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
02:10 <Nothing\> do you think it would be possible to operate a serial device by hand? like by entering the data in with a series of dip switches, i'm thinking timing might be an issue, but you could always latch that data into, well, latches, and then send it off to the device with the proper timing
02:44 <Nothing\> i'm just trying to think how i can use these max7914 chips without having to use an arduino, cuz i can't for the life of me to get any non-default libraries to work with the IDE
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05:26 <Halcyon_B> Feeb
09:29 <Ampera> Halcyon_B, FOOD
09:30 <Ampera> NOW
09:43 <Halcyon_B> Heh
09:53 <Halcyon_B> I'm on the train, I haven't had brekky yet either
10:04 <Ampera> eevblog time
10:04 <EEVBlog> Ah shoot, Doc! We've ended up at 06:18 Sydney time.
10:10 <Ampera> early boi
10:16 <Ampera> I'm cooking a microwave lasaga
10:22 <Ampera> 17 minutes
12:30 <Nothing\> oh that's nice, i couldn't find my temperature sensors, but apparently these lm334 current sources can double as temperature sensors
12:43 <Halcyon_B> Yup, this is my life
12:51 <Halcyon_B> Why 17 minutes?
12:54 <Nothing\> Halcyon: i've never eaten breakfast much
12:55 * Ampera directs high energy microwaves at Nothing\ 
13:03 <Ampera> Halcyon_B, because the box told me to do it for 17 minutes
13:12 <Nothing\> though i have stomach problems so i should eat when i wake up
13:13 <Halcyon_B> Nothing\, Ill grab coffee and toast when I get to work
13:25 <Ampera> I eat one meal a day
13:29 <Halcyon_B> Ampera, that seems like an awfully long time, at max power
13:43 <Ampera> Halcyon_B, what is the average power draw of an upside down microwave?
13:44 <Nothing\> Ampera: oh yeah that reminds me, regarding my own stomach pains, i find when they flare up, eating a small amount will make it go away almost the instant the food hits my stomach
13:48 <Halcyon_B> Or because of your half-assed voltage there, does stuff take twice as long?
13:51 <Nothing\> might be something to try next time it hits you
14:09 <Halcyon_B> Usually about 1200 watts, sometimes less, sometimes more
14:12 <Ampera> Halcyon_B, I've found that US microwaves tend to be more powerful than European microwaves (funnily enough), I do not know if the same is true for Australian
14:18 <Ampera> That is the same here
14:24 <Ampera> 1100W +/- 150
14:27 <Nothing\> Halcyon: i've always wondered how much of that power actually makes it into your food
14:31 <Halcyon_B> That's weird, 17 minutes is fucking ages
14:35 <Ampera> I think ours is something like 1350
14:50 <Nothing\> but then, where else would the microwave experience losses? it's not like it heats up anything other than the food
14:54 <Ampera> Nothing\, power has to make it somewhere
15:01 <Halcyon_B> Nothing\, well, considering it's not really heating anything else but the food, I'd say most of it
15:07 <Ampera> but this is a large block of ice, and water has /a lot/ of thermal mass
15:10 <Nothing\> well, into the food i would imagine Ampera but i'm wondering if it gets anywhere else
15:15 <Ampera> so I'm not surprised it takes that long to make it properly hot
15:25 <Nothing\> Halcyon: yeah i'm sure the sound of it running wastes some power, but probably not much
15:29 <Ampera> If there is a ceramic in the oven like a plate, a lot of it will go into that
15:33 <Ampera> since it can absorb microwaves
15:34 <Nothing\> not compared to 1500 watts anyways
15:39 <Nothing\> Ampera: yeah i've noticed that
15:50 <Halcyon_B> Now I'm hungry, fuck you Ampera
15:51 <Ampera> The light bulb probably takes like 30W or something
15:55 <Ampera> you're welcome sir
16:11 <Nothing\> speaking of microwaves, i read an article the other day about this guy who's developing technology to use the radio waves from wifi routers to see people through walls
16:18 <Halcyon_B> I'll drop out shortly, there are a few tunnels coming up with no leaky coax/cell sites in them.
16:28 <Nothing\> and not just see them, but see/measure their heart beat and breathing
16:34 <Ampera> also our voltage isn't the problem, the problem is that the standard outlet installation for the wall isn't 30A
17:01 <Halcyon_B> Nothing\, not sure about 2.4/5 Ghz but you can already buy radar attachments for phones which let you see pipes, studs and cables inside walls
17:09 <Nothing\> Halcyon: where abouts are you? i feel like you're in europe cuz no american takes the train unless they have to
17:19 <Ampera> If I ever build a house, all of the outlets will be NEMA 14-30, not 5-15 or 5-20
17:28 <Halcyon_B> https://walabot.com/diy
17:30 <Nothing\> Halcyon: oh yeah i've seen stuff like that advertised but i alwasy thought it was a crock of shit
17:41 <Ampera> Nothing\, what do you think a stud detector does
17:49 <Nothing\> Ampera: magnets
17:53 <Ampera> it's effectively an optical mouse, but using much lower EM
17:59 <Ampera> magnets don't work on wood
18:02 <Nothing\> that's how they've always worked since i was a kid anyways
18:12 <Nothing\> you move it around till you find a nail and the magnet sticks up
18:13 <Halcyon_B> Nothing\, I'm in Sydney, AU
18:23 <Nothing\> Halcyon: ah, europe jr
18:28 <Halcyon_B> Heh
18:44 <Nothing\> Halcyon: did you guys feel the earthquake in darwin the other day or was that too far away?
18:45 <Ampera> ǝdoɹnǝ
18:52 <Nothing\> enrode?
19:09 <Ampera> it's europe, but ǝdoɹnǝ
19:25 <Ampera> Nothing\, I'm not sure if that's a joke
19:26 <Halcyon_B> Nah too far, it's extremely rare to feel earthquakes here. Even then, they are for a second or two.
19:27 <Nothing\> i know darwin's a good ways from sydney but depending on the ground, earthquakes can be felt from surprisingly far away
19:35 <Nothing\> Ampera: what? the earthquake?
19:41 <Ampera> being able to feel it
19:45 <Ampera> that's a distance of 2000 miles
19:47 <Nothing\> Ampera: oh, no i was serious
19:55 <Nothing\> Ampera: yeha but i've felt earthquakes in west virginia before
20:04 <Nothing\> not exactly 2000 miles, but still a pretty good distance
20:09 <Nothing\> and that was just a 5.5
20:27 <Ampera> That's like an earthquake going off in vegas and asking if someone can feel it in syracuse
20:38 <Nothing\> hrm yeah you put it that way
20:46 <Halcyon_B> https://earthquakes.ga.gov.au
20:49 <Ampera> you're in toronto?
20:52 <Nothing\> i didn't realize how small darwin was though, it's only like 75k people
21:00 <Halcyon_B> Oh yeh, it's tiny
21:00 <Nothing\> Ampera: pretty close to it, maybe an hour away
21:11 <Nothing\> Halcyon: doesn't seem like there's a whole let in the north
21:13 <Ampera> yeah that's like 300-400 miles away from west virgina
21:38 <Ampera> The only quake I've ever felt was a small one that went off in Virginia-ish in I believe 2011
21:49 <Nothing\> seems like australia's basically the southeast corner, a bit of the west coast, and a small bit to the north and that's most of the population
22:01 <Nothing\> Ampera: yeah that's the one i felt, it was 2010
22:14 <Ampera> Well yes, since those are the only parts of Australia that aren't fucking barren
22:18 <Ampera> desert
22:22 <Nothing\> lol yeah really
22:24 <Halcyon_B> Pretty much
22:35 <Nothing\> it's a shame they can't use desert land for anything
22:39 <Ampera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Virginia_earthquake
22:40 <Ampera> 2011
22:44 <Nothing\> oh, wow
22:51 <Nothing\> that's really weird
22:55 <Ampera> it caused the washington monument to crumble a bit
23:03 <Halcyon_B> Although even the desert isn't barren, quite a bit still grows there.
23:10 <Nothing\> my brother's family was living with me when it happened, but they moved out in late 2010
23:15 <Ampera> magnitude 5.8
23:27 <Halcyon_B> We could use it for Nuclear Power if our government wasn't so piss weak and scared
23:34 <Ampera> Must have been another one by any chance
23:35 <Nothing\> oh no wait, i'm thinking of the earthquake in quebec
23:49 <Nothing\> there was another 5.something in quebec a few months after or before that one that i felt
23:58 <Ampera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Central_Canada_earthquake
23:59 <Nothing\> really rare to feel 2 earthquakes here in such short succession
24:02 <Ampera> This was 2012
24:04 <Ampera> *2010
24:14 <Ampera> anyways my lasog is probably done, gonna check on it, ciao
24:15 <Nothing\> Ampera: ah that makes sense, i think i'm mixing up the memories
24:23 <Nothing\> alright man, enjoy the grub
24:26 <Halcyon_B> The last earthquake I remember feeling would have been around 1991-1992
25:00 <Nothing\> Halcyon: yeah these were the only ones i ever felt, we usually get ~5.0 or so every 5 years, so it was unusual that we had 2 earthquakes in about a year
25:13 <Halcyon_B> #ClimateChange :P
25:14 <Halcyon_B> ;-)
25:19 <Nothing\> lol
25:33 <Halcyon_B> *shrug* why not, people seem to blame everything else on it
25:41 <Nothing\> it was a weird sensation though, it was like my insides were made of jello and all wobbly and vaguely nauseating
25:54 <Nothing\> i always figured it would just felt like if somebody shook the chair you were sitting in
26:05 <Nothing\> but yeah it's more this deep, wobbly feeling from within
26:09 <Halcyon_B> I've never felt one long enough to really think about it.
26:51 <Nothing\> i was on irc when i felt the west virginia quake, but i didn't know what it was at first, so it was really weird when i said i felt something weird and friends of mine hundreds of miles away said they felt it as well
27:07 <Halcyon_B> Heh
27:38 * Nothing\ sighs
27:42 <Nothing\> still staring at an empty breadboard
27:52 <Halcyon_B> What are you planning on making Nothing\ ?
28:12 <Nothing\> i'm thinking a triangle wave generator, it'll be a nice excuse to use these current sources i just got
28:24 <Halcyon_B> Fair enough
29:36 <Halcyon_B> Ampera, I'm probably catching up with Dave next week or the week after for dinner, want me to get anything for you?
29:41 <Nothing\> and i just realized i've never made a real triangle wave generator, best i did was tap the capacitor from a 555 with a buffer so i can use the waveform to drive an LED, but that's not exactly a triangle wave
29:56 <Nothing\> Halcyon: you know dave personally?
30:02 <Halcyon_B> Yup
30:09 <Nothing\> right on, that's pretty cool
30:13 <Halcyon_B> Meh
30:18 <Halcyon_B> He's a good guy
30:23 <Nothing\> how'd you meet him?
30:34 <Halcyon_B> I forget now, did a few things for him a while ago
30:55 <Halcyon_B> He is exactly like he is in real life as he is in his videos
30:59 <Halcyon_B> Really energetic
31:16 <Halcyon_B> Oh yay, I didn't drop out \o/
31:17 <Nothing\> he seems like a really good guy, normally somebody that upbeat comes off as being phoney, but somehow his demeanor seems genuine, i guess because he still bitches and moans about things that bug him, so he's got a REAL personality, despite coming off as so unusually upbeat
31:41 <Halcyon_B> Yeh not at all, which is nice, he doesn't put it on for the camera *at all*
31:57 <Nothing\> that's pretty cool
32:22 <Nothing\> i should catch up on his videos, i haven't watched very much since he moved into the new lab
32:34 <Nothing\> i noticed one on RMS that piqued my curiosity the other day
33:26 <Halcyon_B> There hasn't been a huge amount of new content lately with him being so busy. He's taking some time off over the school holidays. The flooding of his lab didn't help either.
34:11 <Nothing\> yeah that's what i figured, he's had a lot going on with the move and then the flood
34:25 <Nothing\> and i'm sure there's other stuff i'm unaware of as well
34:33 <Halcyon_B> Ampera, do you have a multimetre?
34:45 <Nothing\> i think Ampera left to eat his lasagna
34:50 <Halcyon_B> multimeter I should say
35:04 <Halcyon_B> Hah yeh I'd say so
35:31 <DHess_US> Got the system to boot from both USB and CF. The CF is massively faster.
35:46 <Halcyon_B> Which system DHess_US ?
36:10 <DHess_US> Halcyon_B, pfsense 2.3.5 on 2002 hardware.
36:15 <Halcyon_B> Ah nice
36:24 <DHess_US> Going to upgrade my router from 1999 to 2002
36:37 <Nothing\> i had a cheap $20 meter i used for the first year or so i was into electronics, then i invested in a ut61e and i love this thing, it's got everything i need, great accuracy, nice to use, my only complaint is the battery compartment was awkward to get the batteries in, and uses a self threading screw on plastic, so i feel every time i open it like i've just taken a bit off of its lifespan simply from unscrewing that
36:49 <Halcyon_B> Actually, something I've never really considered, but does CF have the same write cycle life compared to SD and other flash memory?
37:00 <Nothing\> it even has a capacitance function on it
37:04 <DHess_US> It's all the same.
37:05 <Halcyon_B> Old Cisco routers and switches seem to use CF quite often
37:18 <Halcyon_B> Right, so no swapping or logs to CF either?
37:20 <Nothing\> and it came with a special attachment to test parts, so you don't have to worry about long leads introducing parasitic elements
37:42 <DHess_US> It depends but generally yes, you do not want to log or swap to CF.
37:58 <DHess_US> Same as you would not want to log or swap to SD or USB
38:02 <Halcyon_B> *nod*
38:08 <Nothing\> actually my least favorite video of dave's is his review of my multimeter
38:14 <Halcyon_B> I might have to compared configs with you DHess_US, make sure I got it right
38:20 <Nothing\> just cuz he shit all over it for the simple fact that he doesn't like uni-t
38:25 <Halcyon_B> I'm running mine off an SSD in a baremetal VM
38:36 <DHess_US> https://i.ibb.co/p3xtWTS/IMG-0353.jpg
38:54 <Halcyon_B> I'm pretty sure I've disabled swap
39:19 <DHess_US> CF to CF to IDE adapter
39:23 <DHess_US> Old school SSD.
39:28 <Halcyon_B> Heh, nice
39:31 <Nothing\> speaking of ssd and usb, i was watching an electroboom video yesterday on those stupid USB killer things, you know the ones i'm talking about? that discharge high voltage caps into the data line of your USB port
39:40 <Halcyon_B> Yup
39:48 <Nothing\> i was thinking, if it's like 250v, wouldn't it just arc across the traces?
39:59 <Nothing\> he made his own and you could hear it pop as it arced somewhere
40:15 <DHess_US> No, usually it would not.
40:22 <Halcyon_B> Wouldn't it follow the traces for the most part? (Path of least resistance) ?
40:54 <Nothing\> DHess_US: i would have thought it would, i mean the whole reason they physically separate the high and low voltage sides of a PCB is to avoid arcing
40:57 <DHess_US> Creepage and clearance requirements have a margin for error and the voltage won't get that high before soemthing else clamps it.
41:15 <Nothing\> that's true
41:17 <DHess_US> It starts out as 250 volts or whatever but it doesn't stay that long.
41:23 <Nothing\> i didn't even think of clamping circuits
41:57 <DHess_US> Even if the surge or ESD protection protects the rest of the system, it will likely end up shorted which is a kill anyway.
42:08 <DHess_US> At least for that port.
42:39 <Nothing\> it's funny that people are convinced that those camera flash circuits will either kill you or literally blast you across the room if you touch the cap while it's charged, meanwhile being that it was electroboom, he was getting himself zapped by the flash capacitor at a few hundred volts
42:58 <DHess_US> Oh, they can do that under the proper circumstances.
43:06 <Halcyon_B> Nothing\, I've done it before as a kid, it hurt but that's about it
43:07 <Nothing\> i also remember hearing anecdotes of people as a joke throwing a cap charged to a few hundred volts to their lab partner
43:20 <DHess_US> I've gotten thrown off a ladder and across a room by not much more.
43:36 <Nothing\> worst thing i ever did either as a kid or adult was touching the socket from one of those plasma globes while it was turned on
43:40 <Nothing\> gave me a hell of a zap
43:48 <DHess_US> Get a real photoflash circuit. It has a much larger capacitor.
43:56 <Nothing\> DHess_US: well that's what he was using here
44:00 <Nothing\> i think it was a 600v cap
44:01 <Halcyon_B> Ah yeh, this was just a shitty disposable camera
44:05 <DHess_US> He was using a tiny one.
44:08 <Halcyon_B> Wasn't from a Canon flash unit or anything
44:21 <DHess_US> The one he used was as small as they get.
44:40 <Nothing\> DHess_US: i'd imagine if it has a lot of capacitance, you'd probably remove your hand from the leads before it could discharge fully through you
45:15 <Halcyon_B> Also, on the subject of things being thrown in a lab, this is why I don't catch things :P
45:25 <DHess_US> Nothing\, yes.
45:26 <Nothing\> actually i could see it going through your skin if you're just touching the cap itself, the leads are only a few millimeters apart so it would make more sense that the current would go through your skin or just below it, rather than traveling all about your body
45:27 <Halcyon_B> If someone is stupid enough to throw something at me and it breaks, their problem
45:41 <DHess_US> It does.
45:48 <Nothing\> Halcyon: lol i would imagine most people in a lab suck at catching anyways
45:48 <DHess_US> That's why that kidn of voltage is so dangerous.
45:56 <Halcyon_B> Well that's the other reason :P
46:36 <Nothing\> DHess_US: what's dangerous about that? i could see the resistance causing heating damage locally, but i always heard DC is rather less fatal
46:55 <Halcyon_B> Isn't DC more fatal?
46:55 <Nothing\> i've always heard DC destroys tissues more than AC but AC causes that V fib that'll kill you
47:30 <DHess_US> AC causes the muscels to buzz. DC will clamp your muscles so you cannot let go which is how people who get shocked get thrown.
47:53 <Nothing\> Halcyon: from what i've heard the constant on/off pulses from AC throw off your heart's rhythm and can put it into ventricular fibrillation where it just sorta shutters and can't pump blood properly, which is what you need a defibrillator for
47:59 <DHess_US> Either will cause a heart attack
48:24 <Nothing\> DHess_US: yeah i was just thinking if the DC is applied for long enough it could probably do the same
48:45 <Nothing\> i'd imagine it causes your muscles to contract strongly while the current is being applied
48:50 <Halcyon_B> Well if DC clamps muscles, I'd imagine it does the same to your heart
48:55 <Halcyon_B> Where as AC throws it out of sync
49:03 <Nothing\> although AC does that too, but with AC your muscles are twitching at 50/60hz
49:13 <Nothing\> Halcyon: yeah that's what i was thinking
49:26 <DHess_US> I have first hand knowledge. You can let go of AC.
49:37 <Nothing\> it seems like you could probably throw your heart out of sync with DC if you did it long enough
49:53 <DHess_US> I picked my neon sign transformer up by the ends once when it was on and managed to set it down rather than drop or throw it.
49:59 <Halcyon_B> DHess_US, I've never touched 240v AC, I don't think I want to either.
50:06 <Nothing\> DHess_US: it depends how strong the current is, big clive did a couple of videos where he slowly rose the current and after a point his hands were contracting so hand that he couldn't let go
50:11 <DHess_US> neon sign transformer is 25k
50:29 <Halcyon_B> Yeh bugger that
50:34 <Ampera> Halcyon_B, indeed I do have a meter, but it's a very shit one
50:35 <Nothing\> DHess_US: but one thing he said that can happen is even though your hands are contracting strongly, you can still move your arms so sometimes people are able to force themselves to let go in that manner
50:46 <Ampera> idk if you know what I'd say when I say, it's /the/ OEM DMM
50:49 <DHess_US> That wasn't as bad as a couple hundred microfarads at 1000 volts on my strobe power supply.
50:54 <Halcyon_B> Amps: I'll ask for one of his small meters.
51:00 <Halcyon_B> They are a neat little unit
51:10 <Ampera> That would be really awesome, Halcyon_B.
51:24 <Halcyon_B> I forget the model, I know he sells them
51:29 <Nothing\> DHess_US: ouch @ neon transformer shock
51:29 <Ampera> https://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server2200/b4d7d/products/46/images/119/DT830B__44308.1295049372.1280.1280.jpg?c=2
51:33 <Ampera> I have one of these
51:38 <Nothing\> man i tell you
51:42 <Ampera> just a different name on the front
51:45 <Nothing\> edison was a dick for making the electric chair
51:47 <Nothing\> humane my ass
51:48 <Halcyon_B> Anyway, next stop is mine., Talk later gents.
51:53 <Ampera> ciao
51:55 <Nothing\> i couldn't imagine how painful the electric chair must be
52:00 Quit: Halcyon_B ([email protected]) Quit: Leaving
52:04 <Nothing\> Halcyon: take care, man
52:07 <Nothing\> aw poo
52:51 <Ampera> I think, since there's having such issues with executing people these days, someone should reinvent the electric chair
52:55 <Nothing\> electricity's probably one of the most painful things you can be exposed to cuz it directly stimulates your nerves
53:06 <Ampera> but instead of waiting for some low ass current to buzz some poor fucker, have a large bank of capacitors vaporize him
53:25 <Nothing\> see even though that would be a lot more gruesome, that would probably be more humane
53:37 <Nothing\> just pump so much energy into his head that it literally explodes instantly
53:45 <Ampera> How would it be gruesome? If you do it right, one moment person is there, the next moment they're not
53:56 <Nothing\> nah, capacitor discharges make things explode
54:10 <Ampera> No, not too little to explode someone, I'm talking so much energy even the bones become vapor
54:33 <Ampera> If you pump enough energy into a bar of iron or such, you can get it to vaporize, why can't you do that with a person
54:50 <Nothing\> what's his face... photonic inductions did a video where he had this HUGE industrial cap that he was discharging through things and he did a hotdog and it was just as though he put a firecracker in it, the thing just blew apart at its weakest point
55:17 <Nothing\> Ampera: cuz the water heats up and boils, but it's contained within your flesh so pressure builds up until something gives and POOF
55:38 <Ampera> I'm talking the equivalent energy of hundreds of those
55:49 <Nothing\> the same thing happens if a person falls into lava, there are videos where people throw organic waste into lava and it explodes from the super heated steam
56:03 <Ampera> I don't have the numbers, but /vaporize/ the person
56:03 <Nothing\> hrm yeah, i'm not sure what would happen in that case
56:14 <Nothing\> yeah that's the key
56:35 <Ampera> vapor, as in everything in the body hits the boiling point so fast that it immediately becomes gas
56:55 <Nothing\> you know, it wouldn't be that hard to experiment with that
57:00 <Nothing\> assuming you had the equipment
57:00 <Ampera> it would take /a lot/ of energy, but potentially easier/cheaper than the states who are trying to find lethal injection drugs nobody will sell to them
57:15 <Ampera> Sure, in theory you could vaporize a lab mouse
57:32 <Nothing\> but considering the capacitor photonic inductions used to blow up those hotdogs was half the size of him, i'd imagine it would take a huge bank to make enough energy to vaporize a person
57:33 <Ampera> would take less energy too, and you can scale it up based off the mass differential
57:45 <Nothing\> actually, i could work out how much energy it'd take just to vaporize the water in a person
57:56 <Ampera> It wasn't half the size, it was smaller than a computer case
58:19 <Ampera> Water is a lot of energy, but you have things like calcium and hydrocarbons which would take a lot of energy as well
58:56 <Nothing\> so a person is 60% water, assuming a weight of 50kg for the sake of convenience that's 30kg of water, so how much energy's it take to boil 30kg of water
59:05 <Nothing\> Ampera: was it? it's been a while since i've seen it
59:18 <Nothing\> but yeah water can absorb a lot of thermal energy
59:27 <Nothing\> and fast
00:27 <Nothing\> so it takes 1200 joules to raise a kg of water by 1 kelvin
01:25 <Ampera> for a 70kg person, to get to 210F (needs more than this to get to vapor) would be 3.04 Kwh
01:56 <Ampera> or 10.9 MJ
02:12 <rust_collector> I did vaporize most of an excavator bucket once. That was exciting
02:29 <Ampera> also I will continue to do mixed unit system calculations, just to confuse and annoy everyone
02:45 <Nothing\> Ampera: thanks i was about to give up cuz i was confusing myself
02:57 <Nothing\> so now we've just gotta figure out what size capacitor we need to store that energy
03:02 <Nothing\> that's the easy bit
03:14 <Ampera> to get to 212 F (boiling point) that's about 1200 x 42 x 2
03:19 <Ampera> plus the amount before
03:23 <Ampera> from 98.6 (body temp)
04:19 <Ampera> 11044.8 KJ to vaporize the water in a human, all at once, assuming no losses
05:07 <Nothing\> okay so a 400 farad cap at 250v will hold 12,500,000 joules
05:13 <Nothing\> oh, megajoules you said
05:13 <Ampera> 1F = 1As @ 1V
05:15 <Nothing\> oh my
05:24 <Nothing\> As?
05:35 <Ampera> Coulomb
05:39 <Nothing\> ah
05:40 <Ampera> Ampere/second
05:53 <Ampera> so going back to watts
05:55 <Nothing\> well there's a formula directly for the amount of energy too, 1/2cv^2
06:08 <Nothing\> which oddly enough is the exact same formula for kinetic energy of a moving object
06:10 <Nothing\> go figure
06:18 <Nothing\> 1/2mv^2
06:48 <Nothing\> so you get a lot more energy when you raise the voltage
06:57 <Nothing\> than if you raised the capacitance
07:18 <Ampera> 3.068 Kwh
07:47 <Ampera> which would be 3.068 VA/h
07:57 <Nothing\> so 12,500,000mj from a 400,000 farad capacitor at 250v
07:58 <Nothing\> lol
08:26 <Ampera> it would be 1F = 1Ws
08:27 <Nothing\> that's what you'd need to vaporize a human, assuming its equivalent series resistance was zero and there were no losses
08:39 <Ampera> 1F = 60Wm
08:53 <Ampera> 1F = 3600Wh
09:14 <Nothing\> i think that's if you're measuring it over time, i'm just assuming an instantaneous output
09:18 <Ampera> 1F = 3.6KWh
09:23 <Nothing\> but yeah that is a factor to consider
09:54 <Ampera> I think my math is getting out of control here
10:03 <Ampera> as I am equating capacitance to energy
10:07 <Nothing\> yeah i'm past the point of confusing myself lol
10:14 <Nothing\> heh yeah i was wondering at that too
10:23 <Nothing\> i sorta caught that but i confused myself thinking about it
11:06 <Ampera> so let's just do this another way, we're going to assume 3kWh for simplicity
11:31 <Nothing\> well there's a calculator here that'll work out the energy in a capacitor
11:31 <Nothing\> http://www.calctool.org/MOBILECALC/eng/electronics/capacitor_energy
11:33 <Ampera> which can be written as 30V @ 100Ah
11:37 <Nothing\> it's just a matter of finding the right values
11:47 <Ampera> we want As
12:17 <Nothing\> that'll work out the power, which is energy over time
12:17 <Ampera> 100Ah = 1/36 As
12:58 <Nothing\> i'm just thinking of the total amount of energy the capacitor would have, i feel like it would be safe to ignore time since the discharge would be almost instantaneous anyways
13:23 <Ampera> alright google helps me here, 100Ah = 360000 Coulomb, I think i'm doing my time conversions backwards
14:02 <Ampera> so that is ?F = 360000c @ 30v if 1F = 1c @ 1v
14:20 <Ampera> 30F = 1c @ 30v
14:47 <Ampera> 30 x 360000 = 10800000F capacitor
15:00 <Nothing\> that's the capacitance though, so that's saying if you applying X voltage, the current will change at a given rate
15:01 <Ampera> @ 30V
15:24 <Nothing\> but it's not referring to the actual energy in the capacitor
15:45 <Ampera> which is why I say 10800000F @ 30V, which is the energy in the capacitor
15:49 <Ampera> which is a lot
15:55 <Nothing\> that sounds about right
16:13 <Nothing\> didn't somebody build a huge capacitor bank somewhere for something not long ago
16:27 <Nothing\> maybe it was england to store energy from a hydro power plant
16:40 <Ampera> 27000 @ 120V 1350000 @ 240V
17:05 <Ampera> *2700000
17:15 <Nothing\> hrm no that doesn't seem right cuz the energy a capacitor stores is proportional to the squarke of the voltage, so it should be lower at 240v
17:28 <Ampera> it is
17:28 <Nothing\> the capacitance that is, should be lower
17:57 <Ampera> but if the formula is 1F = 1C @ 1V, then 2F = 1C @ 2V
18:15 <Ampera> this is the most math I've done in about a year
18:28 <Ampera> someone is going to look at the chatlog later and wonder what the fuck sort of retard I am
18:52 <Nothing\> that's just for the units of capacitance though, it's just saying if you have this capacitance, the current will change at that rate for a given voltage, but it doesn't actually refer to the energy the capacitor stores, only the rate at which it can charge or discharge
19:02 <Ampera> and the issue is that this is just 60% of the mass of someone who weighs about as much as I do
19:05 <Nothing\> Ampera: that's fine, i'm getting myself just as confused
19:15 <coppice_> AVX is rather sad. It was their opportunity to really make things orthogonal, but it still leaves a messy instruction set. In particular they added a lot of the integer arithmetic operations missing from SSE, but didn't soft out the hotch potch of saturating instructions.
20:32 <Nothing\> the way i see it, everybody was new to a subject at some point, especially math, so not getting something or confusing yourself as we've done so well here is nothing to be ashamed of cuz it's something everyone's dealt with
20:50 <Ampera> I'm more used to mathematical concepts, less with practical application
21:04 <Ampera> practical applications like how much energy do you need in order to immediately vaporize a person
21:26 <Ampera> alright, so let's do this then 1F = 1W discharge in 1s
21:35 <Nothing\> one of the best pieces of advice i ever heard about learning math is that nobody's ever born good at math, it's something you have to work at to understand because it's really not a natural way of thinking
22:09 <Ampera> if that's the case then it would be 3000F capacitor @1V to vaporize water in 1 second
23:22 <Ampera> which sounds more realistic to me (realistic as in more like the actual number, and not some intense aberration of my mind)
23:45 <Ampera> 300F @ 30V if it scales like that
23:45 <Nothing\> heh
24:10 * T3sl4 faradates Ampera
24:20 <Nothing\> the energy does scale linearly with capacitance, but it increases with the square of the voltage
24:49 <Ampera> alright my brain is currently fried
24:56 <Ampera> how much energy does it take to vaporize a human?
24:57 <Ampera> a lot
24:58 <Nothing\> lol yeha but i bet it had a great workout
25:12 <Ampera> I mean we know how much energy
25:24 <Ampera> 3.068 kWh
25:24 <T3sl4> humans are a lot of water
25:30 <Nothing\> that's just to vaporize the water, i ignored everything else
25:36 <DHess_US> dude, do you really want me to calcuate that?
25:44 <Nothing\> i'm not sure what else we are besides water
25:46 <T3sl4> far easier to turn them into a red mist, than a white mist of steam and smoke.
25:47 <Ampera> DHess_US, yes teacher
25:49 <Nothing\> fat, protein
25:59 <Nothing\> probably mostly just fat and protein i would imagine
25:59 <Ampera> a lot of calcium
26:05 <Ampera> occasional minerals
26:10 <Nothing\> that's right
26:16 <Nothing\> forgot about those
26:35 <DHess_US> Water has the highest heat of vaporization and specific heat capacity so you can ignore everything else.
27:18 <Nothing\> DHess_US: yeah but you still have a thermal mass besides the water
27:53 <Ampera> alright if it's 1200J for 1kg water increasing 1c, and vaporization is going past 100c
28:00 <DHess_US> So lets see, start with a perfectly sphereical human weighting 100kG at standard temperaturte and pressure
28:18 <Ampera> 60kg of water @ 60% water
28:32 <DHess_US> So 75 * 4.18 * 100,000 to heat to boiling
28:40 <Ampera> we need to go from 37c to 100c
28:55 <DHess_US> I dont' know where you live but here STP is 25C
29:05 <Ampera> but this is a person
29:11 <Ampera> with a body temperature
29:14 <Ampera> who is alive
29:17 <Nothing\> heh i woulda thought to go with STP too
29:17 <DHess_US> Oh, good point, the person isn't dead.
29:22 <Ampera> 37C
29:42 <Nothing\> this chipmunk outside is staring me down
29:43 <DHess_US> Fine, 63 * 4.18 * 100,000
29:47 * T3sl4 reduces Ampera to 25C
30:03 <Nothing\> i dunno what he's doing he's just sitting there in front of a big pile of peanuts staring at me, not even looking at the peanuts
30:18 <Nothing\> he's got a look of blood lust in his eye
30:29 <DHess_US> Wow, is the heat of vaporiztion that high?
30:40 <Nothing\> DHess_US: lemme see
31:04 <Ampera> so that's 1200 x 60 per 1c making (1200 x 60 x 63) J
31:05 <DHess_US> WTF? My calculator crashed.
31:10 <Nothing\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water
31:12 <Ampera> DHess_US mine does that
31:12 <Nothing\> interesting page, btw
31:16 <Nothing\> i always liked this article
31:38 <Nothing\> you'd think to go to the page on water to learn about its chemical properties, but this is where it all is
32:36 <DHess_US> 26kJ of heating 226kJ of vaporization.
32:38 <Ampera> I have 4536 kJ
32:49 <Ampera> to vaporize
32:51 <DHess_US> Oh, wait
33:12 <DHess_US> those are 6s and not 3s
33:12 <Ampera> while you wait, I'm going to get my nice calculator, since I can barely see this one's screen
33:29 <DHess_US> 26MJ of heating and 226MJ of vaporization
33:52 <Ampera> of heating?
34:07 <Nothing\> huh they have units to measure viscosity, i never thought of that
34:15 <Nothing\> the poise
34:19 <DHess_US> 26MJ to heat body to 100C, and then 226MJ to vaporize it
35:12 <T3sl4> yeah, Panic at the Disco! did a whole song on it
35:16 <Nothing\> it's amazing how much energy our bodies even use, especially when you compare it to electrical uses
35:21 <T3sl4> a centipoise of rationality
35:29 <Nothing\> T3sl4: oh, neat
35:39 <Nothing\> reminds me of how they might be giants used to make songs with educational themes
35:56 <T3sl4> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc6vs-l5dkc
35:56 <Nothing\> like that one about constantinople
36:01 <DHess_US> That is about 833 12V 7AH lead acid batteries worth of energy
36:15 <Nothing\> which i still say they should have changed the name to changinginople instead of istanbul
36:23 <Ampera> DHess_US, that's not that bad actually
36:34 <DHess_US> vaporizing water is hard
36:58 <Nothing\> DHess_US: yeah and there's a little "bump" just before you get to the point it boils too, isn't there?
36:59 <Ampera> this website calculator (since I am too stupid to do it myself) says 10kF @ 240V = 288 MJ energy
37:08 <Nothing\> where the energy requirement suddenly goes up in a non-linear fashion
37:20 <T3sl4> although Istanbul Not Constantinople is an old swing tune by someone else
37:23 <DHess_US> Nothing\, no
37:24 <T3sl4> TMBG is a cover
37:30 <Nothing\> T3sl4: oh i didn't know that, huh
37:44 <Nothing\> i just remember it from the music video of it they did for tiny toons
37:49 <DHess_US> Nothing\, it just comes down to heating to 100C and then boiling the body away.
37:53 <Nothing\> that and the one for that particle man song
38:05 <DHess_US> The water is such a large fraction and has the highest requirements that everythign else can be ignored.
38:48 <Nothing\> DHess_US: i don't know that it's so high relative to everything else that it can be ignored, but it certainly would dwarf everything else
38:56 <Nothing\> i dunno what that everything else is though
39:14 <DHess_US> Bones, fats
39:21 <Ampera> I still have my answer anyways, 10kF @ 240V
39:23 <DHess_US> Well, bones and hydrocarbons
39:30 <Ampera> all at once, can vaporize a person
40:03 <Ampera> now to play flappy bird on my calculator
40:09 <DHess_US> I'll take a phased plasma cannon in a 250 megawatt range.
40:09 <T3sl4> take remaining weight times the average heat capacity that most materials have
40:29 <T3sl4> speaking of plasma
40:43 <T3sl4> you'll never actually transfer that much energy in a second; it'll build up on the surface in a plasma layer
40:59 <DHess_US> So those weapons on the Tripods in War of the Worlds are about 250 megawatts each.
41:03 <Nothing\> Ampera: a 10kf cap at 240v stores 288,000,000 joules
41:18 <Nothing\> that is, 1/2cv^2
41:23 <Ampera> Nothing\, correct
41:46 <Ampera> and DHess_US just said 26+226MJ for the water in a 100kg perfectly spherical person
41:54 <Nothing\> ah, i missed that
42:03 <T3sl4> so you really need enough extra to create a blanket of plasma that in turn vaporizes the underlying material
42:11 <T3sl4> i'd guess a few GW would be more reasonable
42:19 <DHess_US> T3sl4, I modified my death beam to emit muons so all energy is distributed evenly throughout the volume via decay products.
42:40 <T3sl4> ah, those'll have good penetration through the atmosphere too, good idea
42:53 <DHess_US> And good penetration through the Earth.
42:58 <T3sl4> no
43:00 <Nothing\> DHess_US: you know if you really could produce muons that easily, it would make for a very cheap source of fusion energy
43:20 <DHess_US> Range is adjusted by altering the relativeistic speed to control half life.
43:36 <DHess_US> Exactly. In my universe, humans really are batteries.
43:41 <DHess_US> I shoot them with my muon cannon.
44:08 <DHess_US> T3sl4, I might be thinking of the wrong particle. In one game we did design such a thing.
44:09 <Nothing\> i doubt its valid for cold fusion, but the idea is that using muons instead of electrons makes them orbit closer to the nucleus, which drastically increases the energy needed to fuse them, since it affects the charge distribution
44:30 <Nothing\> i always heard muon catalyzed fusion touted as a method for cold fusion, but i think it can be used for regular fusion as well
44:37 <Nothing\> but the problem is, muons don't grow on trees
44:37 <DHess_US> Yea, muon catalized fusion is a thing if you have a cheap source of muons which we do not.
44:55 <Nothing\> what's with all of this talk about fusion energy lately?
45:06 <DHess_US> Is there? I hadn't noticed.
45:16 <Nothing\> i haven't bothered reading anything about it cuz they cry wolf so often with this stuff, but i've been seeing a lot of articles in the news about it lately
45:45 <Nothing\> "here's why we're close to practical fusion (for serious this time)"
45:47 <Nothing\> suuuuure
46:15 <Nothing\> the running joke is we've been 50 years away from practical fusion power generation for the last 50 years, so i'll believe it when i see it
46:41 <Nothing\> and i saw something about china developing something, i'm not entirely sure
47:25 <DHess_US> This graph sums it up, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/U.S._historical_fusion_budget_vs._1976_ERDA_plan.png
47:28 <Nothing\> heh i stopped reading physorg a couple of years ago cuz they posted an article that took a claim of cold fusion seriously, i decided they were hyping up stories far too much, which i hate about science publications
48:22 <Nothing\> huh
48:47 <DHess_US> But hey, we spent 1000s of times the "fusion never" budget for the Iraqi war so all is good.
48:49 <Nothing\> that's just for magnetic confinement though, it doesn't include those laser based ones like ITER, although i think those are a joke for generating power
49:03 <Nothing\> it doesn't even seem like they're meant to generate power, like in a power plant i mean
50:30 <Nothing\> if the laser burst is only for a microsecond and the fuel pellet is all expended, i mean what are they gonna do have millions of these reactions per second? constantly feeding a stream of fuel pellets into it? unless they make the focus of the lasers larger, but that'd probably fall victim to the inverse square law, so i don't see how they could ever generate power with one o fthose
51:23 <Nothing\> seems like it'd be better suited for studying the products of fusion reactions
51:39 <DHess_US> I thought this one was more interesting because of better handlign of the radiation, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Fusion
51:44 <T3sl4> s/ITER/NIF/?
53:47 <T3sl4> AFAIK, NIF has only ever had fusion as a pitiful excuse to rationalize a nuclear weapons project to the public
54:12 <DHess_US> I think it is a waste of time though. Fusion reactors are not going to be less expensive than fission reactors and we know how to build fission reactors which lack or have minimized waste problems.
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50:01 <coppice_> DHes_US: nobody has ever demonstrated fission powered energy production with low byproducts. that's about as speculative as fusion at this point
51:37 <coppice_> T3sl4: I'm not sure I'd be so neagitve about the goals of NIF, but US fusion research has a patchy investment history that doesn't look like something being taken really seriously
52:32 <T3sl4> was my understanding that NIF basically only exists because weapons research
53:16 <coppice_> what weapons angle is there to that huge stack of lasers? was it really a military laser research project?
55:03 <T3sl4> nuclear physics
55:56 <coppice_> I guess as with JET, they learned a lot about plasma physics as it applies to high quality fusion
58:24 Join: Halcyon_B ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
58:28 <Halcyon_B> Mew
58:35 <rust_collector> mooo!
58:38 <T3sl4> µ
58:41 <Halcyon_B> Feeeeb
58:55 <Halcyon_B> I watched Guesthouse Paradiso the other night
59:11 <rust_collector> candle in the eye!!!
59:45 <Ampera> hi Halcyon_B
59:54 <Ampera> I put Arch Linux on my mac mini
00:00 <Ampera> a 2006 mac mini that can only run 32-bit code
00:06 <Ampera> and that can't boot from USB
00:13 <Halcyon_B> YAY! Go Apple, go Banana!
00:18 <Ampera> and that can't boot from my arch-linux CDs
00:39 <Ampera> and that, if I do boot into an arch linux environment, will not work if I install arch linux's grub
00:48 <rust_collector> it is not one of those 32/64 bit install cds?
01:27 <Ampera> yes it is, the issue is that it does not boot
01:42 <Ampera> because boot camp has some strange issues with keyboard input that makes a prompt impassible
01:55 <Ampera> and this is originally not my mac mini and I did not put boot camp on it, so I have no clue how to fix that
01:59 <Ampera> or if it is fixable
13:35 <DHess_US> coppice_, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment
19:02 <coppice_> DHess_US: that work looks promising, but they were shut down before they had solved a number of corrosion issues. So, its unproven right now.
19:55 <T3sl4> what was the best looking one, right now? pebble bed? i forget
20:35 <coppice_> DHess_US: the stories from people working on that are very cool - just turn it off on Friday evening, and back on Monday morning sounds exceedingly cool compared to most nuclear systems
22:06 <coppice_> T3sl4: pebble bed looks benign, but doesn't help with waste. The wave front (or whatever they call it) thing that the Gates of Hell is financing looks promising for cleaning up a lot of the mess, but that's another unproven solution
24:21 <T3sl4> ah, that must be this then https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveling_wave_reactor
25:16 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: You're not Boeing to believe this, but... Another deadly 737 Max control bug found https://t.co/XFjJcnlkBg
27:45 <coppice_> T3sl4: yea, that's the one - TerrorPower
29:56 <coppice_> The traveling wave approach sounds cool, but it also sounds too hand wavey to be a complete solution ready to roll out right now.
30:03 <T3sl4> or the French registered designation of origin, TerroirPower
30:59 <coppice_> TerrierPower, where dogs run in wheels
31:39 <T3sl4> limitless
31:43 <T3sl4> why aren't we funding that?
32:01 <Halcyon_B> Hahaha
32:35 * Halcyon_B noms on Minties
41:03 <rust_collector> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnspit_dog
48:25 <DHess_US> coppice_, the corrosion issues were solved because of that project. Congress conveniently made that reactor design illegal after it was proven to work.
48:43 <T3sl4> illegal?
48:55 <DHess_US> Congress passed laws making that reactor design illegal.
49:37 <DHess_US> It's illegal because by design, it works by in-situ reprocessing and that is illegal in the US.
50:27 <DHess_US> There are other restriction which guarantee one will never be built again here.
51:32 <coppice_> DHess_US: in YouTube videos you can find a lot of discussions by the people involved about proposals to solve the corrosion issues. Not actual proven solutions
51:44 Quit: Halcyon_B ([email protected]) Quit: Leaving
51:59 <DHess_US> Maybe they should solve the problems with corrosion with water than.
54:19 <DHess_US> It's like that graph I showed earlier. Nobody who has authority over it actually wants alternative nuclear, fission or fusion, power.
55:02 <DHess_US> They like the pork spending but not results.
55:46 <T3sl4> as the oil companies pass peak subsidy, we'll see if anyone actually wisens up to that
56:00 <T3sl4> that shouldn't be too many more years, it seems
56:01 <coppice_> not having a use for thorium killed the US rare earth mining industry, and gave the Chinese a boost. A conspiracy theorist might see something in that :)
56:55 <DHess_US> It's been decades and nobody is complaining.
57:35 <coppice_> lots of things politically broken decades ago still aren't creating the pushback they deserve
57:38 <DHess_US> The cost of our wars in the MIddle East are also a petrollium subsidy.
57:54 <DHess_US> How much do you think would get done with a trillion a year?
58:27 <DHess_US> Suddenly that 15 billion per gigawatt reactor seems pretty reasonable.
01:00 <DHess_US> Or spend it on Tesla batteries. Oh wait, we dont' like Musk.
01:52 <DHess_US> pfsense box up and running. But I think the replacement gigabit ethernet card Intel sent me is bad. :(
02:28 <steve30> morning
02:40 * T3sl4 hugs steve30 with a duvet
02:59 * Ampera hugs T3sl4 with a large bidet
03:06 <steve30> mmm, duvet
03:07 <T3sl4> g'day
03:14 <Ampera> hi T3sl4, how do
03:22 <T3sl4> i do
03:26 <T3sl4> how you
05:06 <Ampera> I got arch linux to work on my mac mini
05:10 <Ampera> so I am happy
05:15 <T3sl4> i heard :P
05:26 <Ampera> single most complicated thing I've ever done on Linux
06:58 <T3sl4> well, that's interesting
07:32 <T3sl4> wikipedia is on and off right now; a tracert mostly gets there, but it seems like it keeps going in loops back to the same wiki server but not the actual destination server it's supposed to go to
07:57 <DHess_US> Weird. I was having problems with YouTube a few minutes ago.
08:03 <DHess_US> But Wikipedia seems to be working.
08:08 <Ampera> I'm on Wikipedia, and it's working
08:11 <DHess_US> It's Iran! They are hacking us!
08:19 <Ampera> NUKE THEM
08:22 <Ampera> HIT THE FUCKING BUTTON
08:30 <Ampera> WIPE OUT THOSE SAND NIGGERS ONCE AND FOR ALL
08:37 * T3sl4 hits Ampera instead
08:42 <Ampera> good decision
08:58 <DHess_US> Make them take Hillary and Trump!
09:14 <T3sl4> grab her by the
09:24 <DHess_US> Make them listen to Nickleback!
09:34 <T3sl4> now now
09:37 <Ampera> SLAP THEM WITH A MACKEREL
09:45 <DHess_US> Oh, you're right. That would be crewl.
10:17 <coppice_> isn't forcing someone to hear Nickleback a human rights abuse?
10:37 <Ampera> coppice_, forced auditory stimulus is potentially cruel and unusual punishment
11:03 <T3sl4> wonder why they arent blasting it out in the immigrant camps
11:04 <DHess_US> Can we still give them Hillary and Trump?
11:16 <Ampera> Would wiring up a US house with 30A outlets as standard instead of 15 or 20 be an insane idea?
11:30 <T3sl4> it would be inconvenient
11:32 <Ampera> or wiring all outlets to operate under 240V
11:38 <DHess_US> Ampera, yes, because no common appliances have 30A plugs.
11:45 <DHess_US> Same problem
11:49 <Ampera> rewire or use adapters for the common appliances
11:59 <Ampera> or import european appliances that can operate on 240V
12:10 <T3sl4> or install arch linux on all of them
12:14 <Ampera> GENIUS
12:19 <DHess_US> Now what you *can* do, is install duplex outlets and wire them with both phases so if you need 240VAC, you can just use 2 x plugs.
12:50 <Ampera> That's actually not a terrible idea
13:00 <T3sl4> is that legal? i mean two independent plugs instead of a 4-prong outlet?
13:14 <T3sl4> (the circuit would have a ganged breaker regardless, since not doing so is very illegal)
13:22 <Ampera> if I do 20A, then that would be 240V @ 20A, which could totally run an electric kettle that doesn't suck
13:28 <DHess_US> Um, technically yes. But installing that configuration of sockets is not.
13:42 <coppice_> wire your house with 240V, and buy all your appliances from European Amazon sites
13:43 <DHess_US> Or at least it is not unless you use separte neutrals.
14:09 <DHess_US> If you use the same neutral, then it is not approved because if the neutral gets disconnected, it could apply 240 volts to one 120 volt socket.
14:29 <Ampera> I mean if I used all 30 or even 50A outlets for everything, in theory I could use some sort of fused adapter for normal appliances
14:37 <coppice_> or the Philipinnes, where all power is 230V balanced around ground
14:39 <DHess_US> Of course if the neutral to your house gets disconnected, which happened to me a couple years ago, the same thing happens except it applies 240 volts to your whole house.
14:53 <T3sl4> ah, so you'd run two romexes for it, but otherwise it would be a regular 240VCT circuit
15:16 <DHess_US> Ampera, the rules in the US are pretty strict about that sort of thing so no, you aren't allowed to do that. You cannot even install too many outlets in one room.
15:22 <T3sl4> coppice_: in the philipines all power is 0V balanced and grounded
15:38 <DHess_US> I remember when we moved once, my father had to go and remove a bunch of outlets that he added.
15:42 <Ampera> DHess_US, I wouldn't be allowed to install 30A outlets as standard?
15:50 <coppice_> T3sl4: that's what I just said
15:51 <DHess_US> Ampera, no, I don't think so.
16:01 <Ampera> What if I were some sort of commercial application that required such a thing
16:32 <Ampera> and since I do know that houses are wired with 30 and 50A outlets in some places, what would be the limit
16:35 <DHess_US> You could install individual 240V AC or 30A or both outlets on individual circuits as needed. People do that to add electric dyers and split A/C.
16:48 <DHess_US> Commercial is different.
16:57 <DHess_US> But I don't hink you could do it in the "office" spaces.
17:01 <Ampera> yeah but sadly I can't live on commercial
17:24 <Ampera> Could I install 240V outlets instead of 120V, though?
17:24 <DHess_US> Some of the rules are because they don't want you running a business at home.
17:50 <DHess_US> So in a lot of areas, they will absolutely not run 3 phase to your house or to any area zoned residential.
18:00 <Ampera> like 240v20A outlets/circuits
18:04 <DHess_US> Sometimes they will run 3 phase to an outbuilding.
18:29 <DHess_US> 120V/20A exist. You might get away with that
18:41 <Ampera> Well I know they do, I've seen them in residential homes
18:42 <DHess_US> Probaly not though.
18:44 <T3sl4> it's my understanding, 3ph isn't usually /completely/ unavailable, but it's eyewateringly expensive, possibly intentionally so
18:50 <Ampera> not that them existing in residential means they're definitely legal
19:06 <coppice_> move to Germany. everyone has 3 phase power there
19:16 <DHess_US> Sure, and a 240V/30A exists in my basement but only for a dryer.
19:17 <T3sl4> actual prohibition would i think depend on local law, so YMMV
19:36 <Ampera> Well my aunt's house has NEMA 5-20Rs in the kitchen
19:49 <T3sl4> 20A 120V is pretty common
19:50 <DHess_US> Part of the reason for the restrictions is to peole don't violate the spearation between business and residential.
20:07 <DHess_US> I've only seen 20A 120V in businesses.
20:32 <DHess_US> Where they needed a little extra for a computer.
20:34 <Ampera> now the next question is could I live in business, or even are there areas that aren't zoned, like in Texas
20:43 <DHess_US> Ampera, nope.
20:45 <DHess_US> I tried that.
20:46 <Ampera> or what if I generate the power on-site
20:53 <Ampera> so it's /my/ power
21:05 <DHess_US> Nope, illegal in most states insofar as you must have a grid connection.
21:09 <Ampera> to which I could even in theory generate it to european standards
21:21 <Ampera> put a grid connection in my shed, but power my house/ranch off my own plant
21:24 <DHess_US> So you can make your own power, but you are always required to have a grid connection anyway assuming it is available.
21:37 <DHess_US> No, grid connection must go to house even if you don't use it.
21:53 <DHess_US> People down in Florida and the hurricain states keep facing that.
21:54 <Ampera> are there areas that aren't zoned in the US?
22:02 <DHess_US> Some.
22:11 <Ampera> would those restrictions still apply?
22:14 <DHess_US> Nope
22:31 <Ampera> are all outlets usable in a US home required to be NEMA?
22:38 <DHess_US> The zoning restriction's wouldn't apply. The building restrictions still would.
22:49 <DHess_US> I ... don't know.
22:50 <Ampera> as in, if I were crazy enough, could I install foreign outlets in a US home
23:02 <DHess_US> !clue
23:05 <DHess_US> Probably
23:29 <DHess_US> Building codes probably specify it so you couldn't.
23:31 <Ampera> because I had the crazy hypothetical if you could install german shucko outlets instead of regular NEMA outlets in a US house
23:36 <T3sl4> if i put a dyno in my garage and drive my car up onto it, and floor it, and accidentally happen to have some wires leaving said dyno -- that's illegal?
23:55 <DHess_US> You can make your own power and not use grid power, but you still need to pay for a grid connection.
24:00 <coppice_> Ampera: even if it doesn't affect building regulations, you'll probably find various quirky issues like it invaliding your building insurance
24:18 <Ampera> coppice_, do I need building insurance like I need automotive insurance?
24:42 <Ampera> hypothetical specifying an off-the-beaten-path location in Texas
24:43 <T3sl4> is your car worth half a million dollars and appreciating daily?
25:09 <Ampera> T3sl4, not unless there's a few gold bricks in the spare tire compartment my grandfather forgot to tell me about
25:34 <T3sl4> then you probably don't need that kind of insurance
25:34 <Ampera> if you people couldn't tell, I love hypotheticals
25:49 <T3sl4> you're a hypolectual
25:50 <Ampera> stuff that would be, in my mind, cool as hell, but not something I'd actually do
26:02 <Ampera> stuff I'd consider doing if I won a billion dollars off the lottery
26:22 <T3sl4> top of the list is still dying tho
27:00 <DHess_US> Sometimes you run across a story where someone living in unincorporated land is absorbed by the city which promply makes them buy a sewer connection when they have been using a septic tank for years without problems.
28:31 <T3sl4> buh, apparently it's hot today
28:41 * T3sl4 turns down his LED lamp slightly, to stop it thermal-limiting
29:11 * Ampera buys T3sl4 a small heatsink for his birthday
30:45 <DHess_US> T3sl4, I think they let you do the 240 thing with duplex sockets if you run seperate neutrals so 4 wires plug ground.
31:17 <DHess_US> Nobody would normally bother because it wastes copper.
31:26 <T3sl4> yeah
31:52 <T3sl4> Ampera, you're a month and a half early, but thanks
32:12 <Ampera> no here's the thing, T3sl4, it's /both/ a belated and early present
32:24 <DHess_US> apparently the Intel gigabit adapter works and I foudn the one bad patch cable in the house.
33:27 <Ampera> I've done that before, wondered why something wasn't connecting, to find that, amazingly, the cable I had, which probably even worked before, just happened to be broken
33:30 <Ampera> often happens with IDE cables
34:04 <Ampera> I wanna watch DS9 again, but I've watched it so many times, that it's starting to get grating to me
34:11 <Ampera> but it's also such a great TV series, and I enjoy watching it
34:15 <DHess_US> One of my Intel Gigabit adapters failed and since it had a lifetime warranty, I got Intel to RMA it and they did.
34:38 <DHess_US> Watch Stargate SG1 instead then.
34:44 <Ampera> don't have it
34:45 <DHess_US> Watch Babylon 5 instead then.
34:50 <Ampera> don't have it
34:58 <DHess_US> Both are worth watching.
35:10 * T3sl4 torrents Ampera a river
35:16 <Ampera> I can't watch it if I don't have it, and I try to keep my stealing things to a strict minimum
35:20 <DHess_US> Get a free account at Cryptostorm and torrent them.
35:30 <Ampera> not particularly for morals, but because it's annoying and slightly risky to set up
35:47 * Ampera snips off T3sl4's ground pin
35:55 <DHess_US> Dude, he is ungrounded enough.
36:06 * T3sl4 EMIs Ampera
36:14 <DHess_US> Now look what you have done.
36:38 * Ampera Beatles all over T3sl4 
37:01 <T3sl4> ELO ther
37:05 <Ampera> ELO wasn't EMI
37:13 <T3sl4> dont care
37:19 <Ampera> just like my mother
37:23 <T3sl4> ye
37:37 <Ampera> drunk, depressing, and uncaring
37:53 <T3sl4> learned from the best
38:16 <Ampera> if you mean schizoaffective disorder, then yes
43:58 <steve30> Does anyone know if its possible to retrieve photos from a Nokia Windows Phone which appears to crash?
56:53 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: And @pe1chl wins The Internet! https://t.co/db3e7ZEIqJ
20:15 Quit: DHess_US ([email protected]) Quit: Leaving
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49:39 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: That doesn't look like a shipping label. Either my zebra printer is possessed, or this is first contact with an alien race. https://t.co/EuF9TWeu9k
52:50 <Ampera> eevblog time
52:51 <EEVBlog> Ah shoot, Doc! We've ended up at 14:01 Sydney time.
00:59 <desu> eevblog time
00:59 <EEVBlog> Ah shoot, Doc! We've ended up at 14:09 Sydney time.
08:38 Quit: DHess_US ([email protected]) Quit: Leaving
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47:08 <K> hello
07:09 <Halcyon> Heya
46:45 <steve30> hi
46:59 <steve30> I just got back from the gym and the post office
02:04 <steve30> Yay, my new clamp meter works
04:23 <K> which one did you get?
06:46 <Halcyon> Where have you clamped it so far Steve? ;-)
07:51 <steve30> Tenma 72-2985 (a uni-t 210e rebrand)
12:34 <steve30> I need to ring the doctors secretary and see if she can get the doctor to change my prescription.
29:43 <Halcyon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxsxfsYxA4s
29:53 <Halcyon> Gawd, really? Why wouldn't he wear shorts?
43:31 <DogWomble> he's a geek, geeks are allergic to sunlight
44:28 <Halcyon> I'm a geek, I love sunlight
44:33 <K> shorts are for ages up to 7
44:43 <Halcyon> In fact, I'm wearing board shorts right now
45:04 <K> along with socks in sandals
07:28 Quit: hsn93 ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
27:06 * steve30 isn't wearing anything
15:26 <Halcyon> Pics Steve
15:27 <Halcyon> :P
50:41 Join: hsn93 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
52:27 <gremlinz> hot
20:25 <steve30> too late, i just put my pyjamas on
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58:49 <Nothing\> neato, i just got an attiny85 dev board i didn't even remember ordering
59:19 <Nothing\> i'm wondering if i could upload programs to it with the arduino ide, it's got a usb port on it so i'm guessing i can just do it like an arduino
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