#eevblog - 2019-10-06 - AustNet Archive Project

// #eevblog — 2019-10-06

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« 2019-10-05 2019-10-07 »
09:47 <coppice> love has no age, as long as your partner is younger
13:11 <Ampera> Halcyon_, watch it and weep: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nynxl9bgy9Q
18:06 <rust_collector> does mr H have a thing for bowling pins?
18:38 <Ampera> rust_collector, he gets upset at people who have knives on the street
18:47 <rust_collector> hah
19:06 <Ampera> I want to see the steam coming out of his head when he knows (in theory) anyone could open carry one of these, with ammo, fully auto, in some US states
19:10 <rust_collector> you should have a knife with you, almost all of the time
19:29 <Ampera> rust_collector, not in Australia, it's illegal to carry knives in public without a specific utilitarian reason
19:47 <rust_collector> well, uhm, does anyone care?
19:58 <rust_collector> I think, in theory, it is illegal here as well
20:01 <Ampera> Yes, because the police can search you without warrant and without accusing you of a crime.
20:20 <Ampera> So in theory, any cop could pick you off the street, look in your pockets, and arrest you for carrying a swiss army knife
20:27 <Ampera> They're perfectly legal in Germany.
24:08 <rust_collector> I think I would be more worried about them being allowed to search anyone for no reason, than knives being illegal
25:06 <rust_collector> I mean, they should not be police, if they can not come up with a reason to search you
25:21 <Ampera> Oh they're supposed to have reasonable cause
25:25 <Ampera> but they don't have to give it to you
25:29 <Ampera> and you can't deny it ever
25:52 <Ampera> and in theory it's only to be accountable to higher levels of police, so an officer could likely just make shit up
26:53 <Ampera> There's a huge piss on Halcyon_ party on the forums about them trying to make it so that police can also force you to surrender potentially incriminating personal information under direct threat if it's encrypted on an electronic device, without a court order, without the need to accuse of a crime.
27:41 <Ampera> So any cop would be able to walk up to you and demand the contents of your phone under threat of (I could be off) up to 5 years of prison and/or 60,000 AUD in fines
29:01 <Ampera> So that, in the US completely and directly violates the 4th, 5th, and 2nd amendments. (the knife, searching, and phone thing)
29:40 <Ampera> but Australia doesn't have constitutional law either, so I don't know how their majority system goes, but they potentially have no laws that require a supermajority to create or overturn.
30:06 <rust_collector> heh
31:35 <Ampera> which is why laws that would require (afaik) the only rewrite of the US bill of rights in the history of the nation, along with a serious supermajority effectively needing the unified agreement of both parties, no matter who is in control of the government anywhere, to create/change are being debated in common proceedings like they're a new tax
31:55 <Ampera> (which would require in the US)
38:39 <coppice> The bill of rights sounds so American - if you want rights, you're going to be billed for them
52:52 <Ampera> now you're thinking like a real ancap coppice
12:03 Join: Lord_of_nothing ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
12:09 <Lord_of_nothing> Hey Ladys
12:25 <Lord_of_nothing> How is the Weather in Australia?
38:21 Join: Agripa2 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
44:26 <Lord_of_nothing> hmm
55:19 <rust_collector> https://www.aboutaustralia.com/travel-tips/weather-in-australia/
00:08 Quit: Agripa2 ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
00:40 <Lord_of_nothing> Good Morning
02:33 <Lord_of_nothing> 32C in Darwin wow!
03:16 <rust_collector> you know... it is almost summer there now
03:40 <Lord_of_nothing> sure next week here the temp goes down to 5C
03:49 <Lord_of_nothing> D:
04:31 <rust_collector> it is back up to 4 here right now. but I live by the coast, so weather is moderate here
05:15 <rust_collector> 2 hours drive from here, we had 20-30 cm of snow yesterday.
09:48 <Lord_of_nothing> does it is possible to skying in Australia?
10:52 <rust_collector> yea
12:05 <Lord_of_nothing> realy? When I think about Australia only a Desert come in mind.
12:23 <Ampera> eevblog time
12:23 <EEVBlog> Ah shoot, Doc! We've ended up at 03:12 Sydney time.
12:26 <Ampera> mm yes
13:55 <rust_collector> just like in africa. if you have snow, you can go skiing, if you are int that
23:17 <Lord_of_nothing> well africa is huge
24:26 <Lord_of_nothing> sadly i life in a small country
25:26 <rust_collector> I am pretty happy about being in a reasonable sized country, with little people
26:13 <coppice> is that Ireland? They claim to have the little people.
26:32 <rust_collector> arrrgh, I knew I should have used some different words
26:49 <Lord_of_nothing> nope still Austria
28:36 <rust_collector> I tend to think that most little people are in asia, but it could be that there are just so many people there...
29:05 <rust_collector> maybe normal sized people are banned from cities there, I don't know
29:12 <Ampera> The eastern land of the germans.
29:20 <Ampera> >:D
30:47 <Ampera> rust_collector: you should check more hostmasks
31:38 <rust_collector> mm, ok, why?
31:49 <rust_collector> and....what?
31:57 <Ampera> rust_collector: because then you would have known Lord_of_nothing is from Austria without having to think
32:09 <rust_collector> But, I do know that
32:17 <Ampera> I didn't
33:01 <rust_collector> well...
33:22 <rust_collector> that is ok, I guess.
33:37 <EEVBlog> It's never okay, rust_collector.
33:55 <rust_collector> it is always ok
34:58 <EEVBlog> ***THIS IS A MESSAGE FROM THE EEVBLOG EMERGENCY ALERT SYSTEM, A CATEGORY 9 SHITSTORM IS PROJECTED TO MAKE LANDFALL IN norway AROUND THE LOCATION OF rust_collector PLEASE EVACUATE IMMEDIATELY***
35:20 <coppice> Living in Asia for 25 years I generally felt like a giant, yet everywhere I worked there was always one Chinese guy slightly taller than me
35:38 <Ampera> coppice, those are the ones you have to worry about
36:07 <Ampera> in other news I forgot I had put a console in my bot that lets me plop random text into chat
36:32 <rust_collector> nerd
37:04 <Ampera> nord
37:29 <rust_collector> But it would be nice if the area was evacuated, because I need to go to the store, and it is always too many people there
37:46 <Ampera> that's what happens when everyone is fucking loaded in your nation
37:58 <rust_collector> Yeah, I guess
38:18 <Lord_of_nothing> @@Ampera thankfully we are not Germans.
38:42 <Ampera> Lord_of_nothing, did the man with the Charlie Chaplin stache teach you nothing?
39:01 <Ampera> also you lot speak German, so
39:03 <Ampera> hah
39:08 <rust_collector> and the chaplin birthday, iIrc
39:45 <Ampera> rust_collector, 4 days apart
39:47 <Ampera> close enough
39:49 <rust_collector> oh, ok
40:09 <rust_collector> We need to change that
41:20 <rust_collector> I bet, that if we just edited the wikipedia page on either of them, people would believe it
41:53 <Lord_of_nothing> @@Ampera We Speak Austrian -> de-at not de-de!
42:01 <rust_collector> I mean, newspapers use wikipedia as a reference, lol
42:59 <rust_collector> I would say that even some germans don't speak de-de german. their dialects are something
44:33 <rust_collector> You should go back to the weird union with hungary. Good times
45:29 <Lord_of_nothing> sure orban do a better job than merkel
45:38 <coppice> Ah, the good old days, when Archie Duke shot an oistrich because he was hungry
45:57 <rust_collector> hah
46:44 <Lord_of_nothing> In the good old days we could drive to our beach
47:03 <Lord_of_nothing> sadly now its italy
47:07 <rust_collector> So, toyota has a model called urban cruiser. I want to buy a bag of stick on "t"s and make them turban cruisers
47:11 <Lord_of_nothing> the even stole Südtirol
48:07 <coppice> but you can still drive to the beach
48:08 <Lord_of_nothing> lol Toyota was at first happy when the saudi ordered a RORO Ship full
48:17 <Lord_of_nothing> but not your beach...
49:12 <rust_collector> volvo used to have a rule, that they had to design the cars, so you could wear a hat....
49:32 <Lord_of_nothing> lets visit (the) sandy bitch how the spanish called it....
49:44 <coppice> I can't wear a hat in my volvo. this company is going downhill
49:54 <rust_collector> yeah, it is
51:14 <Lord_of_nothing> Now not call there new car "the female mastrubator"?
51:27 <rust_collector> but if they make a car than you can wear a turban in... I think there is a market somewhere
52:07 <rust_collector> more than half of the new cars here are dildo cars
52:40 <coppice> the problem with turbans in cars is that most sikhs are really tall
53:58 <rust_collector> Now I just realised why the firebird and that sort of thing had "t-tops"
54:53 <Lord_of_nothing> interesting
55:19 <Lord_of_nothing> Thankfully I get picked up with a nice Mercedes
56:07 <rust_collector> mmmhf
56:09 <coppice> Mercedes are worse than volvos for headroom. What's happened to all the newer cars? Being German or Swedish used to mean decent headroom
56:14 <Lord_of_nothing> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Mercedes_Citaro_C2_n%C2%B0462_Universit%C3%A9_STRAN.jpg
56:32 <rust_collector> sweden does not make cars any more
56:56 <coppice> my volvo was designed and built in Sweden
57:19 <rust_collector> that is not the same
58:13 <coppice> well the same people who own volvo cars own a big chunk of mercedes, so are mercedes still German?
58:31 <Lord_of_nothing> well german care are shit
58:43 <rust_collector> yes, it is, because mercedes makes crap cars, so the germans can keep it
59:13 <Lord_of_nothing> german products are still shit
59:27 <Lord_of_nothing> made in germany is a good warning lable
01:37 <Lord_of_nothing> i can recommend never buy and food product who is made in germany
01:44 <Lord_of_nothing> the produce just crap
03:53 <Ampera> Maybe I should start being a dick to people that come from nations that have had shit performance in the ESC, sort of like a next-level douchefaggotry.
04:29 <rust_collector> yep.
04:37 <Ampera> Lord_of_nothing, you're disappointing compared to a person who could speak french.
04:52 <Ampera> rust_collector: you're a shitty sweede
04:57 <Ampera> *swede
04:59 <rust_collector> but being in the esc is a fail,
05:01 <Lord_of_nothing> well i dont care about french people
05:02 <rust_collector> uuh, ok
05:13 <Ampera> though that goes without the ESC I suppose
05:13 <coppice> german car makers are so bad Audi bought an Italian company in the hope of improving its performance cars
05:14 <rust_collector> I am 1/16th swede
05:16 <Lord_of_nothing> why the ESC is nice
05:43 <rust_collector> uhm, no, it is not
05:48 <Ampera> I quite like the ESC
05:48 <Lord_of_nothing> Sadly Russia is not part of
05:57 <Ampera> except when Austria won last
06:00 <Ampera> wasn't a fan of that one
06:06 <Lord_of_nothing> me to...
06:21 <Ampera> but you're austrian, so I can blame you for it
06:37 <Ampera> that being said, you lot have perfect opportunity to absolutely shit on me, since I'm German
06:49 <Ampera> and Germany is probably the worst performing nation in the entire competition
07:12 <Ampera> that being said we do pay the bills so
07:32 <Lord_of_nothing> lol there are other nation who suck more
07:56 <Ampera> Depends on how you define suck. Germany has been in the competition about as long as anyone else, and have won twice
08:19 <Ampera> and scored last 7 times and nulscored 3 times
09:13 <Lord_of_nothing> but ralph siegel or how the spell write winning songs
09:56 <Ampera> At least in the earlier competitions, the rule went if you sang in French, you had a better chance of winning
10:13 <Ampera> unless you're in the 1990's, then it's welcome to Ireland.
10:32 <rust_collector> there was a german(I think) gurl who won a few years ago, and her comment was "I have to sing it again?"
10:54 <Ampera> lol
11:02 <Ampera> Lena?
11:09 <rust_collector> uuh, yea
11:09 <Ampera> also that was 9 years ago
11:16 <rust_collector> well, pfffttt
11:27 <Ampera> ESC 2010 in Norway
11:32 <rust_collector> I did sort of like that one
11:39 <rust_collector> oh
11:41 <rust_collector> sorry
11:47 <Ampera> I did too, the name reminds me of nena
11:52 <coppice> Isreal is a contestant, so they are flexible about the term European. There's some cheating, so they are flexible about the term contest. However, they are most flexible about the concept of a song
12:17 <Ampera> coppice, well it has to include singing, and can't have live music
12:19 <Ampera> of any sort
12:20 <Ampera> at all
12:31 <Ampera> which is actually kinda sad
12:52 <coppice> yeah, its the concept of singing where they are most flexible
13:35 <Ampera> coppice, used to not be though, up until 1999 it had to be in a national language of the participating country
14:20 <Ampera> so the whole, if you sang in french you won thing, meant that France and Luxembourg won a fuckton, and then Monaco, Belgium, and Switzerland also won a bit too
14:21 <coppice> they've always been flexible about the concept of singing
14:35 <Ampera> coppice, actually I have something that will prove your point
14:52 <Ampera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAJ62IG3gBo
16:24 <coppice> wow, that's really bad. I'd never heard that one before, and I find I can't take more than 0:35 of it now
16:31 <rust_collector> wow, that was awesome. I should probably start looking at this thing
17:12 <Ampera> rust_collector, yes looking, because after that you wouldn't want to listen to anything anymore
17:14 <Ampera> lest it be that bad
17:29 Join: steve30 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
17:40 <Ampera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPZX7EZIFD0 This is a classic though
17:45 <rust_collector> I come from the land of crappy vocals- that was great
18:28 <Lord_of_nothing> how about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtGeIW8J5gc
18:39 <coppice> Ampera: the British one is worse. She's so far off autotune wouldn't bring her back on pitch
19:26 <Ampera> coppice, autotune is afaik banned by the ESC
19:38 <rust_collector> that could be it
19:46 <Ampera> rust_collector, what about this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qqOI04uo_c
19:46 <Lord_of_nothing> still the best austrian esc song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZJt6Gv4XPk
20:28 <coppice> Ampera: it says something interesting that they would think its necessary to ban autotune
20:46 <Ampera> coppice, well the rule is that singers are not allowed to sing with assistance
20:47 <rust_collector> Ampera: that is a thing that is on repeat on the old peoples radio stations.
21:06 <Ampera> yeah but the vocals are nice
21:46 <rust_collector> yeah, they are professional musicians and singers. so it better be pretty ok
21:46 <coppice> Ampera: that's prejudice against the disabled
22:04 <Lord_of_nothing> The best austrian song ever! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKQf8Z5uWQ8
22:32 <rust_collector> anton aus tirol?
22:50 <Ampera> The best austrian song ever (actually): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8MyztgOTv8
25:19 <Ampera> This is one of my recent favourites as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtIm4nRWvO4
25:20 <rust_collector> We did have a woman in a white dress, who did ok on the vocals, a few years ago, so probably before Ampera was born
26:18 <Ampera> I was born a few months after the deadliest plane crash (event) in the history of the United States, potentially the world.
26:32 <Lord_of_nothing> I still love this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxqPpzWYN1c
26:35 <rust_collector> that you have heard of, yes
26:45 <coppice> The deadliest plane crash was on the ground in Spain
27:05 <Ampera> rust_collector, deadliest aviation disaster in the history of aviation
27:06 <Lord_of_nothing> when?
27:46 <rust_collector> no idea, but at least a month ago. I can not remember
28:02 <Lord_of_nothing> so it could not be that important
28:24 <Ampera> though depends on how you define disaster, if you defined it as any cataclysmic event resulting in the death of numerous people and destruction of property, then I was born about 57 years after the worst one ever
28:25 <rust_collector> nope, they were waiting for ampera to be born
28:43 <Lord_of_nothing> why else sniff for ACARS and ADSB?
28:54 <Ampera> but if you defined it as any such event, excluding wartime attacks, then technically my previous statement stands
29:01 <Ampera> depending on how you define war/wartime
29:23 <rust_collector> i fyou only thing of the thing I mean, that is the thing I mean
29:35 <Ampera> rust_collector, do you really mean that?
29:38 <Lord_of_nothing> When I put the old Flak from my Grandpa inte Garden
29:53 <Lord_of_nothing> then the war start
30:01 <rust_collector> No, fix my spelling
30:25 <Ampera> rust_collector, fix it yourself you lazy cunt
30:32 <rust_collector> arrrgh
30:47 <Ampera> because I have no idea what the fuck you said if that was meant to be intelligible
31:16 <Ampera> "If you only thought of the thing I meant, that is the thing I meant?"
31:17 <rust_collector> replace all the words with things that makes sense, and that is it
31:40 <Ampera> That still doesn't make much sense, but it isn't as much of a gramatical crime
32:13 <rust_collector> meh, I am foreigner, it is ok
34:18 <Ampera> Sorry about that, my NIC decided to forget what a MAC address is and softlock
34:40 <Ampera> because my wlan chipset will compltetely softlock if you try to use powersaving on it
34:47 <Lord_of_nothing> lol
35:00 <Lord_of_nothing> better then a gattling gun with auto aim
35:05 <Ampera> I was talking about 9/11, the worst non-war (technically) airplane crash event in world history
36:55 <coppice> that doesn't count. it was intentional
39:44 <Ampera> I never said it was an unintentional event
39:50 <Ampera> airplanes crashed and people died
41:23 <coppice> it isn't a crash when I hit a nail with a hammer, because its intentional
42:25 <rust_collector> so, it was a... very quick landing?
42:31 <Ampera> yeah then what was it
42:36 <Ampera> what did the planes do
42:45 <Ampera> the planes crashed into the world trade center
43:33 <rust_collector> they had technical difficulties when they passed the elevator shaft, and stopped
44:59 <Ampera> They had a high speed reverse engineering of both the planes and the towers
55:23 Join: Agripa2 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
03:15 <Lord_of_nothing> re
09:50 <Lord_of_nothing> who elese understand "my hands ... your dick ... allive..." https://youtu.be/Yw7PXr2Lczc?t=562 ?
18:17 <Lord_of_nothing> hmm
18:25 <Lord_of_nothing> death silence
19:12 <steve30> no idea
24:11 Quit: Agripa2 ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
25:38 <Lord_of_nothing> nothing on tinder today
27:23 <Lord_of_nothing> germans... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLKc1mWeIjU
27:41 <steve30> Is Tinder intended for hookups or more for dating?
28:23 <Lord_of_nothing> since nobody replay i dont know
29:39 <rust_collector> heh, the germans don't want street racing? that is surprising
30:04 <Lord_of_nothing> thats for that the german autobahn exist
33:38 <Lord_of_nothing> stupid kids race withs dads cars
34:10 <rust_collector> and smart kids race with...
34:21 <rust_collector> uh, moms car?
34:33 <Lord_of_nothing> there own
34:50 <Lord_of_nothing> lol the got just 2 years jail
35:11 <Lord_of_nothing> for killing 2 kids an a car accient
36:58 <Lord_of_nothing> lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzTI91rcjVQ
41:42 <rust_collector> those crossings are very tricky
42:01 <Lord_of_nothing> nope the people are just stupid
42:02 <Lord_of_nothing> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmI2CqyxWnU
43:06 <Lord_of_nothing> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJIHSMHZ6oc
45:51 <rust_collector> I like trams.
46:20 <Lord_of_nothing> you should try to lowest tram on earth
46:28 <Lord_of_nothing> the are just in vienna and oradea
46:55 <rust_collector> I like trolleybuses more, but trams are more expensive, and less flexible, and have almost no brakes, so I like those more
47:19 <rust_collector> more and more, that is not right
47:39 <Lord_of_nothing> but much more people fit into a tram
47:46 <Lord_of_nothing> and WAY comfortable
48:36 <rust_collector> I have been on a tram once. and that was 30 or so years ago.
48:53 <Lord_of_nothing> you should travel to austria
49:09 <rust_collector> the new local trains we have here reminds me a lot of a tram
49:47 <rust_collector> hmm, yea, I should go there. But why do you think I should?
50:17 <Lord_of_nothing> sure here a company use them a replacement for there old one
50:31 <Lord_of_nothing> a propper tra, goes up to 70
50:38 <Lord_of_nothing> tram
51:02 <rust_collector> yeah, and stops some time next week
51:08 <Lord_of_nothing> sadly the have no toilet
52:29 <Lord_of_nothing> well a hard ride...
57:35 <Lord_of_nothing> does anyone know about an electro magnet?
17:28 <Lord_of_nothing> https://www.djivideos.com/watch/ba44a126-c23e-4177-b9be-52237778f62f?autoplay=%20true&poster=
16:23 Join: Agripa2 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
50:03 Join: DogWomble ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
50:05 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o DogWomble
10:25 <Lord_of_nothing> re
11:17 Quit: Agripa2 ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
10:36 * DogWomble waves
11:04 * T3sl4 particles
50:49 <Halcyon_> Hey Ampera, DogWomble, T3sl4
51:06 <DogWomble> mornign Halcyon_
52:22 <Halcyon_> *rubs eyes*
52:56 <DogWomble> i suddenly have a song about narwhals stuck in my head
54:34 <Halcyon_> Keep it to yourself then :P
55:02 <T3sl4> https://www.reddit.com/r/thisismylifenow/comments/ddstiy/we_got_bored_and_our_cat_is_a_heavy_sleeper_so_we/
55:28 <Halcyon_> Bahaah stupid cat
55:43 <Halcyon_> I wonder if that cat's name is "Heart attack"
58:09 <steve30> hi Halcyon_
58:20 <steve30> I was just playing with my PowerMac
59:21 <Halcyon_> Oh nice :-)
00:02 Quit: DogWomble ([email protected]) Changing hosts
00:02 Join: DogWomble ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
00:03 Mode: (by lego.jp.austnet.org) +o DogWomble
01:07 Join: Aztlanpz ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
01:24 <Aztlanpz> hello
02:49 <steve30> I'm just running software update on OSX 10.4, having Final Cut Express 1 crashing, and I also seem to have a T3sl4 keeping the trinitron company :)
03:14 * T3sl4 purrs
03:19 <Aztlanpz> whats a T3s14
04:28 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: NEW EEVblog Video! EEVblog #1250 - World's Thinnest Wallet Review - Stealth Razor https://t.co/CH3QgK01H1
04:58 <Halcyon_> Aztlanpz, he's a smart ass most of the time ;-)
05:12 <Aztlanpz> okay
05:19 <Halcyon_> *smirk*
07:34 Join: Agripa2 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
11:24 Quit: Aztlanpz ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
12:09 Quit: Agripa2 ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
15:18 Join: Aztlanpz ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
17:54 <steve30> I don't know why DVD Studio Pro won't load
18:06 <steve30> Not that I'm likely to use it again :D
00:15 <Halcyon_> Hey steve30
00:29 <Halcyon_> How did you manage to get a copy of OS X?
00:40 <Halcyon_> I have an iMac and downloading it was a bitch
01:54 <damian> black magic
16:46 <steve30> When our family friend Roger bought it in 2006 ish to upgrade his G5, he brought the disk round to install on our G4, during which time I copied the disk.
17:25 Quit: Aztlanpz ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
17:41 <steve30> I also have his old boxed copy of OSX 10.0, which includes a 10.1 updater, and a pirate copy of 10.2.
37:01 <Halcyon_> Ah nice
37:36 <damian> what do you need osx disc for?
40:59 <steve30> I'm a bit physically worn out from my long bike trip earlier, but I'm not particularly sleepy
46:44 * steve30 purrs at Halcyon_ 
47:16 <Halcyon_> :-)
55:12 <DogWomble> yeah, i neeed to drop in my bike next week
55:38 <DogWomble> had the cables replaced for the gears and they've stretched, and i can't seem to get it dialeld back so they're shifting relibbly again
55:49 <DogWomble> also, found a few spokes that need tightening this morning
02:10 <Ampera> We were expressing are profound distaste for the authoritarian dickwads over in the AUstralian government before in here, Halcyon_
02:17 <Ampera> just thought you should know
03:14 <Ampera> In the entire course of you standing by this shit, I don't think I've seen a single person other than yourself actually defend that sort of shit.
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22:05 <Halcyon_> Ampera: Cool
22:23 <Halcyon_> The thing is, people here defend it constantly, it's not an unusual concept
23:02 <Halcyon_> We've discussed this many times, but people in Australia generally have a trust in Police and government intelligence agencies (trust in poiticians is an entirely different thing).
23:12 <Halcyon_> I mean correct me if I'm wrong here DogWomble and damian
27:16 <Halcyon_> I think most reasonable people would think that there is a tradeoff between individual privacy/freedom and protecting a countries national interests for the greater good.
28:15 <DogWomble> my feelings on police are somewhat mixed, while they have given me results on some things, on others they have could best be described as useless at best
29:11 <Halcyon_> Totally agree Tim, I worked with some utterly useless cops. Lazy, couldn't be bothered actually doing their job properly... however I think you'll agree, that's quite different to outright corruption and abuse of power.
30:12 <Halcyon_> Ampera is arguing that Police shouldn't have the power under certain circumstances (i.e.: during the investigation of serious crimes) to demand a suspect provide their password/PIN or otherwise unlock their devices.
30:33 <Halcyon_> We're not talking about your normal summary offences here. I'm talking about serious violent, sexual and counter-terrorism offences.
34:08 <Agripa2> <Halcyon_> I think most reasonable people would think that there is a tradeoff between individual privacy/freedom and protecting a countries national interests for the greater good.
34:17 <Agripa2> There is no conflict in a free country.
34:30 <Halcyon_> Wait, what!?
34:44 <Agripa2> For the US, we have learned to fear our law enforcement, government agencies, and politicians.
34:45 <Halcyon_> So if people could just walk around, do whatever they wanted, you think there wouldn't be conflict?
35:22 <Agripa2> They have a tendency to steal our stuff, shoot our dogs, burn our families, and generally make things unpleasant.
35:36 <Agripa2> Is that what I said?
35:38 <Halcyon_> Agripa2, I see that and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on this. I can see how you guys view law enforcement over there. What I'm saying is that in AU, it's completely different. What works for you, doesn't work for us.
36:29 <Halcyon_> What I do get sick of is some people who have differing opinions, can't appreciate or respect something that challenges their own thoughts and beliefs. There are those on the forum who seem to think, I'm wrong, they are right, regardless, and that's bullshit.
36:32 <Agripa2> It sure doesn't work for Britain and if China looks your way, it won't work for you either.
36:44 <Agripa2> And based on 9/11, it doesn't work in the US.
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37:14 <Halcyon_> You guys have a long way to do before your laws become anything like ours. I think your Police and intelligence services are significantly disadvantaged and gagged in some ways.
37:22 <Agripa2> You misunderstand. I'm saying you are wrong but it isn't personal. I don't care what Australian or any UK nation does.
37:33 <Halcyon_> For example, you rely on us and others to do domestic spying for you, because your laws don't allow it.
37:55 <Halcyon_> That's fine. I think you're wrong, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you and I say.
38:08 <Agripa2> Because we have had some previously poor experiences with domestic spying.
38:09 <Ampera> Halcyon_, the issue is that the law doesn't specify nasty, violent crimes
38:18 <Ampera> it doesn't specify the need to do it in the comission of a crime at all
38:24 <Halcyon_> Ampera: The point of the legislation is for those offences
38:29 <Halcyon_> It's not just for "any" crime.
38:51 <Ampera> and at the end of the day, the police should not be chief interrogators, that's the job of the courts
38:59 <Halcyon_> Nor is it a free ticket just to demand passwords for the sake of it
39:00 <Agripa2> There was a real basis in what King George did leading to our enumerated civil rights.
39:01 <Ampera> Halcyon_, then why doesn't the legislation say that?
39:09 <Ampera> As implemented it can be
39:23 <Agripa2> They didn't come out of thin air. There were specific policies and incidents which led to them.
39:24 <Halcyon_> That's true Ampera, but the courts don't collect evidence (inculpatory or exculpatory), they analyse it
39:31 <Halcyon_> We just present the evidence to the court
40:06 <Ampera> The issue is that encrypted data is incomplete data, it's not something that you can take and just use without extensive effort to solve the missing half of the puzzle
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40:41 <Ampera> you would be threatening innocent people to release information that would have a definite impact on their conviction to you
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40:58 <Halcyon_> Ampera, ALL evidence is like that
41:03 <Ampera> No it's not.
41:07 <Halcyon_> Umm.. yes it is
41:21 <Halcyon_> Not one single bit of evidence paints an entire picture of what happened
41:31 <Halcyon_> We rely on multiple sources
41:32 <Ampera> What are you talking about?
41:54 <Ampera> That's completely unrelated to my point. I'm saying this specific form of evidence is not something you can gather on your own
41:55 <Halcyon_> Also, the proposed bill isn't just demanding passwords willy nilly
41:56 <Ampera> not easily
42:05 <Halcyon_> Don't just take what the media reports and cherry picks
42:26 <Ampera> It doesn't matter if it is or not, the bill permits police officers to threaten innocent people if they do not speak
42:45 <Halcyon_> Oh my gawd
42:53 <Halcyon_> OK, let's just get rid of police all together
42:55 <Halcyon_> Everyone is innocent
42:58 <Halcyon_> The world is rosy
43:00 <Ampera> What the fuck is your problem?
43:12 <Ampera> are you that retarded that the only thing you can push through your mind is the concept of ultimate police power?
43:27 <Halcyon_> You. You dismiss my knowledge and experience as being incorrect and wrong. If it's not in agreeance with you, it's incorrect.
43:40 <Ampera> Your knowledge and experiences is biased.
43:40 <Halcyon_> I have said time and time again, it's not about ultimate power
43:50 <Halcyon_> In fact, these laws being proposed would be enacted UNDER A WARRANT
43:56 <Ampera> This bill dirrectly benefits you and the rest of the police of Australia by making your job easier at the cost of people's freedoms
44:08 <Ampera> SO THEN WHY DID YOU NEVER SAY THAT
44:14 <Halcyon_> I have, multiple times
44:16 <Ampera> I'VE BEEN SAYING UNWARRANTED THIS ENTIRE TIME AND YOU NEVER SAID OTHERWISE
44:18 <Ampera> NO YOU HAVEN';T
44:24 <Ampera> YOU SAID DUE CAUSE, THAT'S NOT A WARRANT
44:47 <Halcyon_> Read my forum posts Ampera. Not once did I suggest that Police should be unlimited powers without judicial oversight and auditing. Not once.
45:01 <Ampera> Under this law, can a police officer, without the permission of a court, and without the accusation of a citizen, demand a password under threat of penatly?
45:14 <Ampera> Halcyon_, never once did I say police should be abolished.
45:16 <Halcyon_> In fact, the exensive oversight in this country is preceisly why these kinds of laws work
45:22 <Ampera> If you can spew hyperbole so can I
46:01 <Ampera> Answer the question
46:01 <EEVBlog> 42, Ampera!
46:04 <Halcyon_> No, you're carrying on like your individual rights to unlimited privacy is the only thing that matters in this world. It doesn't. You aren't special and neither am I. For probably the 20th time... it's a balancing act.
46:22 <Halcyon_> Ampera: No
46:29 <Ampera> No I'm not and you're pulling shit out of your ass I didn't say and don't think because your world view is so fucking fragile you can't deal with me being right about shit
46:41 <Halcyon_> You aren't right
46:49 <Halcyon_> Neither am I. I don't have the answer.
46:56 <Ampera> You can't deal with the fact that your perfect ass police core might actually be a load of corrupt douchebags looking for more power to make their job easier for the weak excuse of it being for the common good
47:19 <Halcyon_> It was, back in the 1990's. Which is why we had a damn Royal Commission
47:37 <Ampera> So what would stop it from being like that again?
47:45 <Halcyon_> A tiny tiny fraction of corrupt individuals in ANY organisation isn't a reason to hinder their core role
47:53 <Ampera> You don't get governed, you govern yourselves.
47:55 <Ampera> You check yourselves.
47:58 <Halcyon_> Incorrect
48:28 <Ampera> Halcyon_, it's an absolutely perfect reason
48:57 <Halcyon_> We have the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission, we have oversight by courts and ministers, we're constantly being audited and asked to explain our individual actions.
49:01 <Halcyon_> No it's not
49:02 <Ampera> that line of thought its exactly what lead to the greatest travesties of authoritarianism of our time, by the thought that government shouldn't be limited just because it has a few bad eggs.
49:16 <Halcyon_> Again, 21st time... it's a BALANCE
49:30 <Halcyon_> How many times do I need to try and explain this?
49:41 <Ampera> my god you're an asshole Halcyon_
49:55 <Halcyon_> No, I just respect the opinion of others, whether I agree with them or not
50:01 <Halcyon_> I can appreciate differing views
50:17 <Ampera> So then why are you arguing with me about it
50:20 <Agripa2> In the US warrants are a very low bar and there are many exceptions. Many law enforcement agencies have their own exceptions like National Security Letters.
50:26 <Halcyon_> You're the one that kicked it off again
50:34 <Halcyon_> Now you're resorting to calling me an asshole
50:42 <Ampera> because you're an authoritarian douchebag
50:48 <Halcyon_> At the end of the day, I don't bother trying to change people's minds because it doesn't work.
50:56 <Halcyon_> Again, your opinion.
50:56 <Agripa2> The only remedy for a defective warrant is exclusion of evidence so no warrant is required to spy on the innocent because there is no remedy in court.
51:12 <Ampera> Like I'm genuinely unsure if I want to continue being friends, because this is serious fucking shit to me and I don't know if I can let it go.
51:28 <Ampera> There are very few things that truly piss me off that much about people, but high level authoritarianism is one of them
51:52 <Halcyon_> Why do you let this bother you? Proposed laws which you've read about on Twitter and in the media, you don't seem to have much of an understanding about how things work here and because I challenge your views, I'm the bad guy?
52:00 <Ampera> Since to me this is the sort of stuff that's gotten family and friends, not just of me, but of other people beaten and killed.
52:19 <Ampera> Because my understanding comes directly from you
52:25 <Ampera> so if it's wrong it's because you've told me bullshit
52:38 <Ampera> I've asked you before if that is the way it worked, and you've told me it was
52:40 <Ampera> then you changed your mind.
52:47 <Halcyon_> So you cherry pick what I say to suit your argument?
53:02 <Ampera> Like this: Can police in Australia search people without accusation of a crime or a warrant?
53:17 <Halcyon_> YES Ampera, YES YES YES YES! This is NOT what we're talking about
53:21 <Ampera> WIthout their consent
53:23 <Ampera> Cool
53:32 <Halcyon_> Repeat after me... person searches and encryption legislation, two different things.
53:35 <Ampera> Under this new law, can police, de jure, do the same but with passwords?
53:38 <Halcyon_> No
53:41 <Halcyon_> I've said this before
53:43 <Ampera> What are the differences
53:45 <Ampera> No you haven't
53:59 <Halcyon_> Oh FFS, this is why I don't generally like talking politics with people
54:01 <Ampera> What does a police officer need, by the law being proposed, to demand a password?
54:10 <Halcyon_> They just get annoyed and leave with the same opinion that they came in with
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54:49 <Ampera> Idk if you know this, but in the US, these sorts of things are abhorrent. Like, human rights violation abhorrent.
54:52 <Halcyon_> I would suggest you read the proposed bills for yourself and interpret them your own way
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55:05 <Ampera> You're the cop, you're supposed to know how the rules work.
55:10 <Halcyon_> They aren't rules
55:11 <Ampera> That's why I ask you to explain them to me
55:15 <Ampera> Laws are rules.
55:16 <Halcyon_> They haven't even been through parliament yet
55:31 <Ampera> You still have a better chance of knowing them than I
55:36 <Ampera> You never said /I don
55:39 <Ampera> 't know
55:52 <Halcyon_> My understanding is that a warrant would be needed and it's restricted to serious and major crimes only.
56:20 <Halcyon_> In order to get said warrant, there needs to be other evidence already. This is how warrants work in AU.
56:24 <Halcyon_> You can't just "get one"
56:26 <Ampera> So this would have to be by the order of a court, and for an objective bar of potential penalty after an accusation?
56:35 <Halcyon_> Yes
56:50 <Ampera> Then that is completely different to how you originally made it out to be.
56:55 <Halcyon_> *sigh*
57:25 <Halcyon_> I have said from Day number one that these powers are not designed to be used by Police whenever they goddamn feel like it.
57:40 <Halcyon_> I've also said that the level of oversight and burden of proof here is high, damn high.
57:47 <Ampera> As far as I knew it, the law would allow police officers to, in grand effect, demand specific information from innnocent unaccused people on their own count
58:07 <Halcyon_> No, they are specifically to be used against people who are being accused of an offence
58:08 <Ampera> How do you not understand the concept, not everyone follows the spirit of the rules?
58:15 <Halcyon_> Not just you and me walking down the street
58:23 <Ampera> If it's not written that you can't do it, what's to stop someone from doing it
58:48 <Ampera> The issue is you make it sound like this is the intent instead of the wording
58:57 <Halcyon_> Nothing, but guess what happens if they try (or charge someone for failing to comply)... there are major repercussions.
59:13 <Ampera> However I'm gonna solve this all for once and for all. Do you have a link to the bill somewhere or know which bill it is?
59:18 <Halcyon_> I don't know about you, but I don't fancy risking my entire job and livelihood because I want to look at someones phone I have no power to.
59:28 <Halcyon_> No I don't, I'd have to look it up
00:31 <Halcyon_> Although this is the current law: http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca191482/s3la.html
00:41 <Halcyon_> It applies only to Commonwealth Offences
02:14 <Ampera> I mean first off this is still not legal in the US. You're constitutionally protected against being required to give testimony at all
02:39 <Halcyon_> Yep, great, good for the US
03:10 <Ampera> Well I say that because I agree with it
03:30 <Halcyon_> And that's fine
03:42 <Ampera> Well the thing is I'm planning to visit
03:48 <Ampera> and these are things that might prevent me from doing so
04:20 <Halcyon_> You're a smart guy Ampera and I like you (dispite the fact you boil my piss sometimes), but it's all a balance, I would hate to live in a world where it is completely one way or another. And what works in other parts of the world don't necessarily work here and vice versa.
04:22 <Ampera> I'm still upset about the potential for unwarranted unconsensual searches, and the prohibition of public small utility knives.
04:37 <Halcyon_> These things shouldn't prevent you from enjoying life and visiting places and they don't impect you
04:43 <Ampera> You keep saying it's a balance, but my point is that your balance is in the wrong place
04:50 <Halcyon_> That's your opinion
05:02 <Ampera> and these are rights I feel very uncomfortable giving up, even for a short period of time
05:12 <Ampera> since I believe they protect me from being unfairly treated and abused by authority
05:13 <Halcyon_> With respect to searches, once again, for 99.99% of the population, it will never effect them.
05:25 <Ampera> which has much longer history of happening to people than otherwise
05:54 <Ampera> That doesn't make me feel better because a cop is telling me that only wrongdoers need to be worried
06:27 <Ampera> which, and I don't know how much facism/socialism/communism history you've read, is one of the most disastrous fallacies of our time
06:40 <Ampera> which is probably one of the things making me so upset about this
07:06 <Halcyon_> For whatever its worth, my opinions haven't changed much since joining the force.
07:18 <Ampera> beacuse, and to use a dramatic example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
08:00 <Ampera> it's all well and good when power only gets used against bad people, but the concern is that the authority to determine who is bad and who isn't needs to be in the right people
08:13 <Halcyon_> We don't live in a perfect world Ampera, such is life. No amount of laws or no laws will change that
08:19 <Ampera> Police should never ever ever ever ever be able to determine on their own merits who is bad or who isn't.
08:29 <Halcyon_> There are always though in power or not who will take advantage of them to suit themselves
08:50 <Halcyon_> Or even those who are so far out of their own mind that they can't think like a normal human.
09:02 <Ampera> The thing is systems can be built to protect against that
09:08 <Halcyon_> How?
09:17 <Halcyon_> I would love to have this perfect solution to it all
09:22 <Ampera> By limiting the de jure authority of different sections of government
09:27 <Halcyon_> So far, I, nor anyone else have come up with it
09:30 <Ampera> to the absolute minimum required for them to do their jobs
10:11 <Halcyon_> And how do you propose we solve the solution of accessing stored data either on a device or an online service which is locked with an unknown password?
10:22 <Ampera> Here's a similar question
10:46 <Halcyon_> For example in a case I have right now, where a guy stabbed a woman, slashed her throat and recorded it on his phone?
10:48 <Ampera> how do you solve the problem of someone who knows information that might help shed light on a crime?
11:09 <Ampera> In both cases there is information you could very well use in a court case
11:15 <Ampera> they're both very very difficult to get
11:23 <Halcyon_> So, how do I get said video off the phone?
11:28 <Ampera> and both require retrieving it out of someone
11:40 <Ampera> The simple answer is if you can't, you don't.
11:57 <Halcyon_> Not nesessarily, I will get it eventually without the assistance of the owner. But it's taking up a lot of my time and tax payer dollars and resources.
12:12 <Ampera> It might suck, but sometimes even if the benefit might be immense, if you can't get it without threatening someone to release that information, you shouldn't get it at all
12:13 <Halcyon_> Thankfully it's an iPhone so it's one of the easier jobs
12:28 <Ampera> Then that's fine, you don't need to threaten someone to crack it open.
12:48 <Ampera> but when you need to threaten someone to give you information to help a case, that is too far
13:06 <Halcyon_> You and I use the word "threaten" very differently
13:26 <Ampera> If I told you I was going to lock you up for 5 years or steal 60 grand of your money, would you consider that a threat?
13:30 <Halcyon_> If a law is law and people know what the rules are and they decide to step outside those rules, then they should know what is coming.
13:54 <Ampera> This isn't something you can step outside of, because this specifically applies to people who are innocent
14:05 <Halcyon_> Put it more simply... talking on your mobile phone and driving is illegal, people know it, people know what the penalties are, yet they still do it.
14:27 <Halcyon_> Is it my fault when I pull them over and fine them because I accused them of doing it?
14:42 <Ampera> So what could someone do to avoid having to give up this information?
14:47 <Ampera> Which could be a penalty in its own right
15:00 <Halcyon_> Don't commit the original crime?
15:09 <Halcyon_> Don't rape kids or murder people?
15:10 <Ampera> From a legal standpoint they didn't
15:18 <Ampera> because it hasn't been proven
15:23 <Ampera> if it had been, then you wouldn't need their phone
15:34 <Ampera> so as I said, you are threatening an innocent person
15:34 <Halcyon_> Well that driver I stopped for talking on their phone are innocent until they argue it in court or pay the fine. Does it mean they didn't do it?
15:49 <Halcyon_> Does it mean they didn't break the law?
15:55 <Ampera> That means you don't know and must give them the benefit of the doubt.
16:04 <Ampera> You cannot treat them like they did unless you intend to prove it.
16:37 <Ampera> What if they didn't break the law, and you make a mistake?
16:38 <Halcyon_> We don't charge people on a whim, there is no guessing involved. There is either evidence to support the prosecution case (which has a much higher burden of proof than the defence) or you don't have the evidence and you don't charge.
16:58 <Ampera> What if the evidence is false, and there is a mistake?
17:06 <Halcyon_> How do you make a mistake? Their either were using their phone or not. If there is any doubt, don't take any action.
17:12 <Ampera> What is the crime was different and less severe to what is being accused of.
17:27 <Ampera> What if it was a stolen phone and identity package?
17:47 <Halcyon_> You can't falsify ID information in a Police or other database
17:54 <Halcyon_> You get unstuck pretty damn quickly if you try that on
18:02 <Ampera> What if the police officer particularly had it in for the guy and decided to plant evidence?
18:08 <Ampera> We've had cops here that planted weed on people
18:17 <Halcyon_> How do you plant evidence on a driver before they've stopped them for that offence?
18:45 <Ampera> It doesn't matter how, and these aren't the only examples.
18:51 <Ampera> Evidence isn't foolproof
18:53 <Halcyon_> Once again, not a perfect world
19:06 <Ampera> This all boiling down to, are you saying that people are guilty until proven innocent?
19:23 <Halcyon_> No, but Police don't just rely on their word or one bit of circumstancial evidence, particularly in serious matters.
19:28 <Halcyon_> No
19:38 <Halcyon_> That's for the court the decide
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20:19 <Halcyon_> We collect evidence and put it in front of a court. If that evidence is not there on the day of the hearing, it's not counted
20:21 <Ampera> So, back to the original matter, if the person is innocent, what could they have done to prevent you from threatening them for information?
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20:39 <Halcyon_> You're relying on the chicken and egg scenario to prove your point.
20:51 <Ampera> Not really, if so, explain
20:54 <Halcyon_> If that were the case, no one would ever be arrested when accused of a crime.
21:01 <Halcyon_> No one would ever be detained or stopped
21:05 <Halcyon_> Or interviewed
21:11 <Ampera> So that means people are guilty until proven innocent?
21:13 <Halcyon_> Or had forensic procedures done on them
21:16 <Ampera> Or innocent until proven guilty?
21:42 * ThunderSqueak waves.
21:46 <Ampera> The thing is you can move an arm without having to thereaten someone, quite easily
21:46 <Halcyon_> Hey ThunderSqueak
21:52 <Halcyon_> That's assault
21:52 <Ampera> you can put someone in prison, force them to take tests
22:15 <Ampera> Meaning, those other situations do not require you to threaten them
22:23 <Halcyon_> So deprivation of an "innocent" persons liberties is perfectly fine?
22:34 <ThunderSqueak> hi there you peeps... sitting here with the GF watching les miserables waiting for some baked potatoes to finish baking...
22:39 <Halcyon_> It's OK to arrest and lock someone up in a cell pending a court appearance?
22:49 <Halcyon_> Mmmm potato
22:52 <Halcyon_> With butter?
23:01 <ThunderSqueak> going to top them with chillie
23:03 <Ampera> That, to be honest, is the hardest part of the situation.
23:30 <Halcyon_> This is what I'm getting at Ampera, you're suggesting that everyone is innocent and should be treated just like anyone else who hasn't been accused of a crime.
23:36 <Halcyon_> However it doesn't work that way
24:14 <Halcyon_> Yet, just because I accuse you of a crime, doesn't mean you're guilty, but you lose the right to certain liberties depending on the situation.
24:36 <Halcyon_> And you don't get a choise in the matter. If you decide to fight me for trying to lawfully arrest you, you'll cop another charge or two.
24:40 <Halcyon_> *choice
25:14 <Ampera> Idk, at the end of the day, I think forcing anyone to testify anything is morally bankrupt and abhorrent
25:39 <Halcyon_> Testifying is for court. If evidence is presented that goes against you, you have the opportunity to rebut it
25:50 <Ampera> Testify means to give information.
26:27 <Halcyon_> We don't use that term so much here but yeh
27:04 <Halcyon_> In a perfect world, the person who comitted a crime would just own up to it and accept the punishment, but humans aren't like that. They lie, try to cover it up, shift the blame, come up with all kinds of excuses.
27:08 <Ampera> I think the real thing being here this is similar to forcing someone to admit guilt.
27:37 <Halcyon_> What if the evidence obtained proves their are innocent but they still refuse to provide it?
27:39 <Ampera> If the phone contains incriminating evidence or even an actual admission of guilt, then extorting that information would be doing just that.
28:01 <Ampera> Then that should be their perogative to also refrain from providing information that could prove they are innocent
28:11 <Ampera> the point being what they do and do not tell to the law should be solely up to them.
28:19 <Ampera> and should not be forced or manipulated in any way
29:04 <Halcyon_> Oh well
29:42 <Halcyon_> Thankfully in this country, people have such a broad viewpoint on these things, so laws don't just get passed. There is plenty of argument back and forth and hopefully we get something in the middle.
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30:34 <Ampera> This all being said, as a hypothetical, one way to incenstivise speeding up the courts is to make detainment of the accused completely illegal
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31:16 <Ampera> Sorry for getting pissed about this anyways, I'm actually going through the most painful days of my life so far right now.
31:37 <Ampera> Very slowly I'm starting to feel like my mind is giving up.
31:45 <Halcyon> You don't have to apologise
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32:36 <Halcyon> Like I said, at the end of the day, we both have different view points. All I ask is a little respect of mine. Even though I am biased (and I am, there is no doubt about it), it still doesn't dismiss my many years of experience in the field.
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33:00 <Halcyon> Biased opinions still bring something to the table.
33:53 <Ampera> Halcyon, the reason I say biased is because you specifically benefit from laws like these
34:09 <Ampera> Authority has a habit of defending power grabs.
34:57 <Ampera> to go onto a different topic I really have been feeling worse and worse
35:11 <Ampera> so I'm gonna blather on about it because fuck you :/
35:13 <T3sl4> respect, heh
35:18 <T3sl4> people can be respected
35:25 <T3sl4> viewpoints, ideas?
35:27 <T3sl4> lol
35:31 <Ampera> more and more my problems don't have solutions, no win scenarios where any action is just as bad as the other
35:48 <Ampera> Stuff that I will have to suffer with for years and years to come.
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36:30 <Ampera> My gender problems are particularly bad, as every day I see more and more people who I feel are responsible for continuing my pain
36:54 <Ampera> people who defend the institution of therapists and doctors who butcher and destroy children for money and politics.
37:23 <Ampera> people who make others painfully uncomfortable around me, not because I try to present as a different gender, but because they're afraid I might be able to ruin them
37:42 <Ampera> The pure rampant nature of identity politics
37:56 <Ampera> and throughout all of this my suicidal thoughts have started to get stronger and stronger
38:36 <Ampera> as ending the pain is staqrting to become more and more important to me the greater and longer it continues
38:45 <Ampera> and I feel like I have less and less people I can trust and who can help me
38:49 <Ampera> so I no longer know what to do
39:47 <Ampera> Therapists can't help me, doctors can't help me, family can't help me, and there's very little I feel I can do to help me
40:12 <Ampera> as my impossible problems grow more and more impossible by the day, and stupid things like hair removal become incredible obstacles
41:27 <Ampera> and whenever I spill on IRC I feel like I just make a fool of myself and that nobody can or wants to help me
42:19 <Halcyon> Sorry I'm back, Jerry was being an asshole
42:48 * Halcyon hugs Ampera
43:18 <Halcyon> I don't think anyone sees you as a fool
43:32 <Ampera> I don't care, I think every single day I just want to die
43:35 <Halcyon> If you were deliberately trolling just to be a cunt, different story.
43:48 <Halcyon> :-( I wish I could do something to help
43:52 <Halcyon> But I feel hopeless
44:07 <Ampera> I just want to throw my chances once again and hope what lies beyond is better than what I can get here
44:29 <Halcyon> Your home situation is probably a big part of it
44:47 <Ampera> No, it's just one part of it
44:50 <Halcyon> Just a thought, but can you not live with your grandfather? You like him.
45:00 <Ampera> the largest part of it is the gender dysphoria.
45:05 <Ampera> I can't live outside of NY
45:08 <Halcyon> Why ?
45:16 <Ampera> Contractual obligations.
45:22 <Halcyon> OK ?
45:53 <Ampera> The long version is I signed a contract with the State of New York and their Excelsior financial aid program
46:12 <Ampera> I have 4 years of tuition-free state college so long as I live and work here during and 4 years after
47:12 <Ampera> I feel like trying to be female is always going to be more than just impossible, but the sheer venture will destroy me and most of the few things I can still say I enjoy.
47:48 <Ampera> I'm afraid it will make everyone fear me, people always be uncomfortable around me, and that every single step will be one problem after another I have to find the strength within myself to fix
48:08 <Ampera> but I can't end the pain, I can't end the problem, and I can't fix myself.
49:45 <Ampera> I feel pain whenever I look at women, hear a female voice. It's absolutely horrific, and I can't stop it
50:23 <Ampera> Waking or dreaming, I can never get away, and whenever I try to embrace it, I just feel shallow, broken, and a parody of who I really want to be
51:19 <Ampera> and that nobody who might have the power to can help me, that many of the trans people in the world are trying to butcher and hurt people like me, and make me join their cults and their factions
51:25 <Ampera> and to think their thoughts and say their mantras
51:34 <Halcyon> Riiight
51:35 <Ampera> and I just want it to end
51:39 <Halcyon> That's understandable
51:48 <Halcyon> How far does your grandfather live?
51:53 <Ampera> 120 miles
52:07 <Halcyon> OK, but far to "live" there and commute to college
52:23 <Ampera> It's nowhere near possible.
52:41 <Ampera> The pure insanity of financial hurdle to do that would be well in excess of just living by myself
52:43 <Halcyon> Also, there are always those who fear you, but fuck them. If you haven't relised by now there are people on this planet who like you for you
52:46 <Halcyon> I am one of those people
53:10 <Ampera> The issue is that I'm afraid it will be everyone on the street, that I can't speak that I can't sink that I can't walk without people noticing me as a freak, an abomination
53:38 <Ampera> and I just want to be normal, I want to not have to deal with this problem, and get some more normal ones.
53:52 <Halcyon> :-(
54:20 <Halcyon> Admittedly I can't begin to understand how you feel. Being gay would be so much simpler and easier.
55:13 <Ampera> well I'm bisexual, but I think homosexual is one of the weakest problems a person can have
55:30 <Ampera> that being said, part of my condition is literally being unable to feel love
56:21 <Halcyon> Well to be fair, you're still young, I doubt you have found true love yet
56:52 <Ampera> No, as in my personal definition of gender dysphoria is
56:58 <Ampera> well imagine yourself in a relationship with a woman
57:05 <Halcyon> Ew
57:09 <Ampera> You can, it's easy enough to do, the dynamics you'd have to share
57:13 <Halcyon> (No offence ThunderSqueak)
57:16 <Ampera> now imagine being born into that, and stuck into it.
57:23 <Ampera> why would ThunderSqueak be offended?
57:56 <Halcyon> Because she's a woman
58:00 <Halcyon> And I said "ew"
58:32 <Ampera> but for me I don't have attraction to others with myself as a male
58:56 <Ampera> in the same way you can't feel love for someone who is female, but thinking about relationships as including you as well
59:40 <Ampera> Which is why I can't feel love, since no matter who it is, I can't complete the other side of the equation. I've had glimmers and slivers, but those varied.
00:06 * ThunderSqueak is a lesbian woman <.<
00:09 <Halcyon> Can't you just love a person, regardless of gender
00:17 <Halcyon> I don't really see what gender has to do with love
00:28 <ThunderSqueak> and I think I am going to marry my GF eventually
00:35 <Ampera> Halcyon, could you love a woman?
00:51 <Ampera> Love is more than just a feeling, it's a relationship, it's wanting to be intimate and close with someone
00:54 <ThunderSqueak> Halcyon, you can love someone regardless of gender tbh
01:03 <Ampera> yeah it's called bisexualism
01:06 <ThunderSqueak> ampera, not always
01:14 <Ampera> if you say pansexual I will yeet you into the fucking sun
01:15 <ThunderSqueak> the wanting to be intimate
01:20 <ThunderSqueak> love has a huge span of meanings
01:25 <Ampera> oh
01:26 <Halcyon> ThunderSqueak, speaking of lesibans. I'm always reminded of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU3YTKnT1Lc
01:35 <ThunderSqueak> not going to look at that
01:38 <ThunderSqueak> watching a movie
01:42 <Ampera> ThunderSqueak, well that's what it means to me
02:03 <Ampera> NOPE
02:12 <Ampera> tl;dr ThunderSqueak it's south park scissoring
02:14 <Ampera> you're welcome
02:18 <Halcyon> Heh
02:19 <ThunderSqueak> well, one can love a son or daughter for instance and not be intimate
02:27 <Ampera> Well that's a different sort of love
02:30 <Halcyon> "Scissor me timbers"
02:32 <ThunderSqueak> that is what I said
02:41 <ThunderSqueak> love has a huge span of meanings
02:45 <ThunderSqueak> one can also love a friend
02:51 <ThunderSqueak> I love my brother for instance
02:52 <Ampera> but I mean in this context, intimate love
02:56 <ThunderSqueak> anyway
03:20 <Ampera> I'm listening to this right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoRfW-E6yHk
03:37 <Halcyon> I'm burning an optical disc right now
03:37 <Ampera> I absolutely love Franck Pourcel.
03:46 <Halcyon> Nice choice Amps
04:02 <Ampera> You like Franck Pourcel too?
04:06 <Ampera> or even know who he is?
04:43 <Halcyon> Never heard of him, but I like the music
04:56 <Ampera> you want more?
05:01 <Halcyon> I can download it
05:13 <Halcyon> Also, I want one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UclHrIIaYA
05:24 <Ampera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E5AXF0R2tE
05:47 <Ampera> I don't.
05:56 <Ampera> A weak 486 to me is the most annoying kinda PC
06:10 <Ampera> since it's too fast to do a lot of the fun 386 titles, but also too slow to do any of the fun 3D stuff
06:17 <Halcyon> Mmm true
06:35 <Halcyon> Although the DX2-66 was VERY popular back then
06:41 <Halcyon> Pretty standard fare
06:45 <Ampera> Yeah but it's a bus limited DX2-66
06:53 <Ampera> with a potato of a graphics chipset
07:05 <Halcyon> Mmm yes
07:11 <Ampera> My 486 is fast enough to play Quake.
07:41 <DogWomble> i should pull my old 486 out agian
07:59 <Halcyon> You two are just size queens
08:12 <Ampera> Halcyon, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ3HRIFxaFY
08:30 <Ampera> this is also another very good Franck Pourcel instrumental
08:46 <Halcyon> I'll listen after LGR
09:39 <Ampera> I have some molly here, Halcyon, watchu gonna do about it?
09:47 <Halcyon> Molly?
09:55 <Ampera> slang term for MDMA
10:06 <Halcyon> *shrug*
10:08 <Halcyon> It's your body
10:15 <Ampera> it's actually my mom's kitty
11:02 <Halcyon> I think people should be able to smoke/take whatever they want in their own home as long as they don't impact others, become a drain on the national health system or drive a car
11:27 <Ampera> I want to take my own life
11:31 <Ampera> is that cool with you?
11:40 <Halcyon> I'd miss you, but yes.
11:54 <Ampera> bullshit
12:01 <Halcyon> Which part?
12:04 <Ampera> nobody would miss me
12:28 <Halcyon> Don't tell me how I would feel cunt
12:30 <Halcyon> I would miss you
12:33 <Halcyon> Genuinely
12:39 <Ampera> not for long
12:50 <Halcyon> *rolls eyes*
14:18 <Ampera> I've thought about the best method for doing it multiple times, and I've thought about double hot 240V30a from the top of a wet head to just below my chest
14:59 <Ampera> No GFCI, shit tons of energy, straight to the places where it would fuck me up pretty fast
15:13 <Ampera> easy and fast to do
15:36 <Ampera> doesn't require much endurance to carry it out once it's started
15:50 <Halcyon> I kind of don't want to know Ampera
15:55 <Halcyon> It saddens me
16:03 <Ampera> know what?
17:27 <Ampera> don't want to know what, Halcyon?
18:20 <Ampera> Halcyon,
18:46 <Ampera> just because you might be retarded enough to do it, don't call the cops or something like that because that could actually fuck me up
18:52 <Ampera> (as in right now)
19:02 <Halcyon> No, as in, I don't want to think about you dying
19:09 <Ampera> oh
19:33 <Ampera> it's one of the few things that gives me hope, becauee I'll start thinking about what I may find
19:38 <Ampera> and what I will never have to worry about again
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20:16 Nick: ibiza_ is now known as ibiza
20:26 <Halcyon> ibiza, what the hell is wrong with your connection?
21:17 <Ampera> yeah I was about to ban him for a day or so until he got it fixed
22:22 <Halcyon> brb, need to proofread my mates uni paper
22:36 <Ampera> k
24:57 <DogWomble> Ampera, not sure if this is up your alley music wise, but my youtube travels have somehow ended up here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFA6dEwWOb4
25:46 <Ampera> I'm listening to this now, DogWomble: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap4k_TzldeQ
26:45 <Ampera> Reminds me of Scissor Sisters's I can't decide
26:51 <Ampera> not a huge fan, but it's not bad
27:54 <Ampera> actually it's quite nice, but I'm in the mood for some swing and franck pourcel orchestrals
28:16 <Halcyon> Back
28:29 <Halcyon> Oh also Ampera, I got a Pinoeer slot loading DVD drive
28:33 <Ampera> Halcyon, did you listen to the Franck Pourcel thing I showed you?
28:40 <Ampera> cool I have two slot loading drives
28:44 <Halcyon> I did, I like his style of music. I can cook to it
28:53 <DogWomble> i admit i don't have any dvd drives in this machine :P
28:59 <Halcyon> The only drives I want now would be the old caddy-based drives
29:05 <Halcyon> We had one in primary school.
29:07 <Ampera> I only have SSDs int his machine
29:18 <Ampera> btw, this tablet is the most incredible fucking thing ever, I just have to say
29:25 <DogWomble> i've still got the one from my old machine, but given how rarely i use a dvd drive now i've just left it out of this machine
29:37 <Ampera> It's one of the most impressive and incredible things I own
29:51 <DogWomble> asidee from loading the initial OS into my last machine, it might have burnt maybe a dozen cd's it's life?
30:51 <Ampera> DogWomble, did you listen to the song I gave you?
31:37 <Halcyon> Are you not on your PC Ampera?
31:56 <DogWomble> just listening now :L)
32:09 <DogWomble> i actually like some of glenn millers stuff
32:18 <Ampera> Halcyon, no I'm on my tablet
32:24 <Ampera> my PC isn't even on
32:34 <Ampera> I'm staying the night at my mom's house
32:38 <Halcyon> Oh right
32:53 <Ampera> I'm talking to you via xpra via hexchat via my server
33:03 <Ampera> SO VIA THE POWER OF UNIX MAY YOU HEAR MY WORDS!
33:17 <Halcyon> :P
33:21 <Halcyon> Where does your mum live?
33:31 <DogWomble> technically we're reading them, not hearing them :)
33:39 <Ampera> 3 miles from where I live
33:43 <Halcyon> Ah righ
33:43 <Halcyon> t
33:48 <Halcyon> Is her place nice?
34:00 <Ampera> 1930's apartment block
34:15 <Halcyon> That doesn't answer my question
34:21 <DogWomble> this is actualyl a decent track Ampera
34:25 <Ampera> Historical district, downtown area
34:45 <Ampera> DogWomble, I have a lot of very nice music, I like a lot of classics
36:36 <Ampera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTHv20WpE2s this is a good song, DogWomble
36:44 <Ampera> I consider it to be one of, if not the best song ever made
37:16 <Ampera> Next to Goodbye Stranger, Strawberry Fields Forever, and Telephone line
37:26 <Ampera> in no particular order, and by no means alone
44:00 <Halcyon> WOW
44:01 <Halcyon> https://youtu.be/wqZu7v5KFoU?t=276
44:10 <Halcyon> This chick isn't crazy "AT ALL"
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49:21 <Ampera> Halcyon, she's putting me the fuck to sleep
50:49 <Ampera> this is the most accurate quantum reasoning yes
52:27 <Halcyon> Your mum?
52:34 <Halcyon> Oh the woman
52:41 <Halcyon> Sorry on the phone brb
54:44 <gremlinz> my ears are bleeding
55:22 <Halcyon> Oh hey gremlinz
55:36 <Ampera> gremlinz, perhaps that's an alarm ringing in the background reminding you to implement functioning persistent auth on connect
55:49 <Ampera> but I might be projecting slightly :P
58:52 <Halcyon> :P
00:18 <Ampera> anyways gonna do a sleepy
00:30 <Halcyon> Enjoy Ampera
00:32 * Halcyon cuddles
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40:55 <Halcyon> ROFL flat earthers are funny
41:06 <Halcyon> I can't stop watching them. They are like a train wreak
11:32 <Stiff> youtube?
11:37 <Halcyon> Yup
36:38 <ThunderSqueak> I watched the rocket show about a flat earther trying to prove the earth is flat by building his own rocket... was on amazon prime
36:46 <ThunderSqueak> odd guy XD
37:02 * T3sl4 hugs ThunderSqueak
37:20 <Halcyon> I just love how flat earthers rely on "scientific methods" yet, refuse to believe actual science
37:54 <Halcyon> They keep using words like "obserable", "repeatable" etc... yet can't demonstrate any of their own theories.
39:28 <ThunderSqueak> yeah
39:36 * ThunderSqueak gives T3sl4 a hug
39:45 <T3sl4> the one where the guy sets up a light and some baffles across a lake
40:12 <T3sl4> and says, we're gonna see the light from over there because it's flat
40:50 <T3sl4> sets it up, huh, can't seem to, well if i move up about <curvature rate over that distance>, i can see it again, but..
43:47 <Halcyon> Heh
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11:43 <Halcyon> Back soon, just swapping machines
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33:56 <Halcyon> Meow
38:33 <Halcyon> Oh yuck. now I remember how terrible VGA graphics are
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59:20 <Halcyon> That's better
08:21 <Stiff> how bad
33:51 <DogWomble> VGA's not that bad, if you're dealing with early 90s vintage equipment
34:34 <DogWomble> though 640x480 for anything modern would be limiting :0
13:22 <Lord_of_nothing> re
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30:54 * Ampera throws a marble at Halcyon 
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