#eevblog - 2019-10-03 - AustNet Archive Project

// #eevblog — 2019-10-03

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« 2019-10-02 2019-10-04 »
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12:04 <cheater> hi
14:33 <Ampera> Halcyon_, Seems like Australia is instituting even more warrantless laws, and is also now breaching the terms of the 5th US constitutional amendment
15:01 <Ampera> It would be insanely unconstitutional and illegal for police anywhere to demand the personal release of any information at all to the police in the absence of a lawyer
15:57 <Ampera> These are legit our most basic rights.
17:09 <cheater> why would australia adhere to the us constitution?
19:21 <Ampera> cheater, I'm not saying it would or is, I'm saying that what I consider to be basic human rights of justice and personal freedom are being breached to an unbelievable degree in Australia
22:25 <cheater> i don't think the us constitution is a good reflection of basic human rights as understood by most people in the world
22:40 <Ampera> Why is that so?
23:00 <cheater> because it has many controversial clauses that are constantly in the news for enabling atrocities
23:06 <cheater> for one
23:11 <Ampera> Human rights is ultimately subjective, and it is my (strong) opinion that the US, while not perfect, has a better set of constitutional rights than most any other nation in the world.
23:19 <Ampera> cheater, which one?
23:34 <cheater> can you be this unaware?
23:41 <Ampera> If you mean the second amendment, that's an incredibly complicated situation, and not as cut and dry as you make it.
23:56 <Ampera> However you said *clauses*, and beyond the second, I can't think of a single one that has caused atrocities.
24:02 <cheater> which makes it not a good reflection of basic human laws.
24:15 <Ampera> It's one rule out of the entire bunch, and I still consider it to be a good law.
24:43 <Ampera> That being said the interpretation varies from person to person, and I can agree that the US is, as I just said, *NOT PERFECT*
25:05 <Ampera> I'm however not talking about gun laws, I'm talking about the freedom to not incriminate oneself outside of a court of law
25:24 <cheater> how about legalizing and codifying slave trade
25:28 <Ampera> or the freedom to not consent to unwarranted searches outside of a direct and serious accusation of illegal acts
25:29 <cheater> etc
25:46 <Ampera> cheater, as far as I'm aware there's nothing in our constitution legalizing slave trade.
25:54 <cheater> how about this thing
25:55 <cheater> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appointments_Clause
26:00 <cheater> we saw how that turned out at the border
26:12 <Ampera> Specifically not today (there's a clause that /bans/ it), but not even before the emancipation proclamation
26:41 <cheater> here you go slave trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Slave_trade
26:44 <cheater> it had to be struck
26:48 <Ampera> cheater, that's not unique to the US, and while it's not a perfect rule, it hasn't caused an atrocity.
27:07 <cheater> you're talking about a document which enables huge atrocities. someone tippexed over it but it's still in essence Not a Good Idea
27:24 <Ampera> That's absolutely not true, and that rule is clearly not in effect anymore.
27:34 <Ampera> What nation do you live in that's so great then?
27:44 <cheater> so you've gone from "better than most any other nation in the world" to "yeah others have this problem as well"
27:53 <cheater> aha, but i've never said that mine's better
27:56 <Ampera> Austria
27:59 <cheater> you're the one who said yours is better
28:00 <Ampera> good then
28:17 <Ampera> cheater, that's putting words in my mouth, and ignoring my entire argument.
28:21 <cheater> nope
28:26 <cheater> you literally said the word better
28:34 <Ampera> I never said it was perfect, I made explicit claims that it wasn't perfect, but said that we have a core set of constitutional laws that is better than any other in the world
28:54 <cheater> you said: "the US, while not perfect, has a better set of constitutional rights than most any other nation in the world."
28:59 <cheater> and i said you said it was better
28:59 <Ampera> because the lack of inclusion of the protections for freedom of speech and expression, along with the lack of inclusion of various legal and personal freedoms is painfully apparent in Australia's
29:05 <cheater> therefore i did not put words in your mouth.
29:05 <Ampera> It is.
29:20 <Ampera> No you said I said "yeah others have this problem as well"
29:20 <cheater> i also never claimed you said the us constitution was perfect.
29:48 <Ampera> I never claimed you claimed that I claimed the US constitution was perfect, I'm saying you're operating under the assumption that I think it is, and believe that all aspects are superior
29:50 <cheater> yes, to show how you downgraded your opinion from "better than everyone" to a defensive "yeah, that's just a dirty corner, don't look here"
29:57 <Ampera> which I never said and explicitly denied multiple times
30:08 <Ampera> cheater, I'm saying we have less dirty corners than everyone else
30:15 <cheater> i don't think you do
30:22 <rust_collector> wth? I don't even know what our constitution says, lol
30:26 <cheater> this conversation is so pointless though, i think i'm gonna go cook something
30:26 <Ampera> and some of these /dirty corners/ are things that don't work the way you think, or don't exist in the modern constitution
31:03 <Ampera> cheater, it's pointless because you've gone around the point and attacked enough strawmen to fuel the animal bedding industry for years.
31:27 <Ampera> rust_collector, it means that, de jure, people aren't allowed to fuck over the civilians, ever
31:58 <cheater> ookay
32:04 <rust_collector> uuh, yes, I just said that I do not know what the norwegian ("my") constitution says
32:34 <cheater> rust_collector: clearly, it's worse than the us constitution.
32:45 <rust_collector> well, yes, it probably is
32:47 <cheater> rust_collector: please comply by planting a US flag on top of your building.
32:47 <Ampera> rust_collector, for whatever reason I had it in my head that you were from the US
33:30 <rust_collector> Oh, sorry about that, I would blame the us school system, if my engrish made you think that
33:54 <Ampera> cheater, someone in your nation got tried and convicted for calling the prophet Muhammad a pedophile
34:18 <Ampera> don't start going at me that our conversation is magically shit, you've yet to disprove my point, all you've done is point out the flaws it does have, and nothing to compare it to other nations.
34:35 <Ampera> rust_collector, no I'm saying I must have you confused with someone else
35:05 <rust_collector> ok. it happens
36:47 <rust_collector> the dumbest thing is when some kids thought I was Jason Statham, of all people. Yes, I am missing a lot of hair, but...
40:39 <rust_collector> but ok, thanks kids in need of eye surgery
43:50 <cheater> nooelec got caught with their hand in the potty
44:18 <rust_collector> eeh, what?
44:32 <cheater> they sell nanovna and the author tweeted a reply that he didn't give anyone permission to sell it or do any commercial releases
44:55 <cheater> next step? nooelec hides the tweet (you can do that now) so no one sees it, "while they resolve the issue"
45:12 <cheater> they hid the nanovna author's reply. not their ad tweet.
47:02 <cheater> told to unhide it, nooelec said "we had to hide it otherwise the nanovna author will not get paid"
48:19 <rust_collector> I wonder who makes them for banggood then
48:34 <cheater> banggood doesn't pretend to be a reputable business
48:37 <cheater> nooelec do
50:17 <rust_collector> well, does that matter? It sore of does not make sense to me, to complain to one company, if others keep selling them
50:45 <cheater> i'll leave it at that
51:17 <rust_collector> I guess I mean, that if china gets your thing produced, you have probably lost
52:25 <cheater> so, by analogy, if ten people punch you, the eleventh doesn't get sentenced
52:50 <rust_collector> probably true
53:22 <rust_collector> either that, or the 10 first punch like little girls
57:50 Join: Nothing\ ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
57:53 <Nothing\> hey hey!
58:06 <rust_collector> hey-o
58:13 <Nothing\> how goes it rust_collector?
58:28 <rust_collector> eeh, not sure?
58:40 <rust_collector> only slightly awake
58:48 <Nothing\> btw is your name meant to imply you collect a lot of rusty things or that the rust is being collected on your actual body?
58:56 <Nothing\> ah yeah, me too, this is early for me
59:13 <rust_collector> it is 6pm here
59:23 <Nothing\> just turning noon here
59:53 <rust_collector> I got out of bed at 3.40 in the mourning
00:07 <Nothing\> for some reason i've been sleeping shit hours lately, can't get my distractable ass to bed until like 7am, then i end up tossing and turning until 8 or 9 then i'm up at noon
00:36 <Nothing\> heh that's the nice thing about the cold seasons, at least if you're a night owl, you can set your sleeping patterns such that you never see daylight
01:00 <rust_collector> just move up north
01:20 <Nothing\> for some reason i feel so shitty during the day, but as soon as the sun goes down i'm all bright eyed, bushy tailed and full of motivation, plus i don't feel shitty physically either
01:35 <Nothing\> northerners have such weird accents in the uk
01:54 <rust_collector> I tend to wake up around 10pm, even if I have been up for 30 hours
01:54 <Nothing\> i've heard the running joke is londoners can't understand them
02:32 <rust_collector> probably true, in some cases
02:57 <rust_collector> same here, the people way up north, has their own language
02:59 <Nothing\> i'm just glad that despite sleeping such crap hours, it hasn't affected me negatively very much at all, i still feel plenty awake most of the day and i've actually been studying better than usual
03:18 <steve30> Nothing\, we have perfectly normal accents :)
03:28 <Nothing\> heh it actually wouldn't surprise me if northerners had their own dialect back in the day
03:28 <rust_collector> uh
03:32 <Nothing\> like the cockneys
03:42 <Nothing\> although i dunno that rhyming slang could be considered a dialect
03:48 <rust_collector> quack quack quack
03:59 <Nothing\> steve30: heh i actually like northern accents
04:12 <steve30> People in Barnsley (about 10 miles away from here) have their own dialect pretty much
04:42 <rust_collector> baaaanslee?
04:42 <Nothing\> does david firth have a northern accent? i've always had a hard time placing it
04:59 <Nothing\> ie the salad fingers guy
05:30 <Nothing\> i just remember in the one he pronounces dust as doost but softer, not sort of a mix between oo and uh
05:46 <Nothing\> i'm sure you know the sound i'm talking about
05:58 <Nothing\> like the oe in oetker
06:21 <rust_collector> me names john. helloh
06:28 <rust_collector> yes, it is like ø
06:29 <Nothing\> haha yeah that's it
06:41 <Nothing\> i actually enjoy northern accents
07:00 <Nothing\> i'd hate to say it though, but i think my favorite english accent, or possibly my favorite accent of all time might be RP
07:10 <Nothing\> it just sounds so... right and proper in a satisfying way
07:19 <rust_collector> reverse polish?
07:26 <Nothing\> recieved pronunciation
07:29 <Nothing\> like BBC english
07:43 <Nothing\> that phony accent they use to sound proper
08:39 <rust_collector> oh, you mean english?
09:22 <Nothing\> that's probably because most of the time when i hear an english accent it's usually from stuff from media
10:29 <rust_collector> this guy sounds like he talks a language: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkPtAaVMFPs
10:51 <Nothing\> heh i was reading this morning about the history of x-rays and safety, apparently when roentgen (i think it was roentgen) took the first x-ray of his mouth, the exposure time was 25 minutes lol
11:04 <Nothing\> then later when he did x-rays of his limbs, the exposures were 30 minutes
11:16 <Nothing\> he described it as torture, but didn't really elaborate on why
11:35 <rust_collector> could have something to do with the pain?
11:53 <Nothing\> x-ray exposure shouldn't cause pain immediately
12:35 <rust_collector> try to not move at all for 30 minutes
12:53 <Nothing\> maybe heat if there's enough power, but that'd have to be a really powerful x-ray since only 1% of the power is actually turned into x-rays and the rest is heat inside the tube
13:19 <Nothing\> heh yeah i figure that's probably what he was talking about, just having to hold so still, especially with a photographic plate stuffed in his mouth
14:25 <Nothing\> it's really interesting though, there are relatively few accounts of injuries from x-rays back in those days, as opposed to the plentiful amount of reports of injuries from other types of radiation
15:03 <rust_collector> when was that anyway?
15:05 <Nothing\> like nobody ever mentions if roentgen had health problems from his research, but everybody knows the agony mme curie went through
15:15 <Nothing\> 1895
15:20 <rust_collector> hmm, ok
16:01 <Nothing\> then there's the fact that they used x-rays for damn near everything, i remember reading how they used to use x-rays at shoe stores to help with fitting
16:36 <Nothing\> although they did that with regular radiation, like those fountains that infused water with radium
17:25 <Nothing\> it's funny, we look back on stuff like that and think of how stupid or careless they were, but i guarantee you in 100 years time we'll be looking back at the way we've used plastics in the same way
18:28 <Nothing\> they've just starting to find that we ingest thousands of microscopic plastic particles a year, they even get into our lungs from plastic carpeting, into our food from packaging, they're everywhere
19:04 <Nothing\> there was an interesting segment about that on this talk show i listen to on CBC radio called quirks and quarks, which i highly recommend if you're into science talk shows
19:10 <rust_collector> just wait until they wake up, and start to crawl around inside you
19:26 <Ampera> Hi Nothing\
19:26 <Ampera> how do
19:27 <Nothing\> i'm more worried about them becoming self aware
19:43 <Nothing\> hey buddy! i'm doing well, considering, how about youZ
19:53 <Ampera> small head cold
20:08 <Nothing\> ah that sucks, i can't even remember the last time i had a cold
20:20 <Ampera> prolly caught it in NYC
20:37 <Nothing\> i never go out into public for more than an hour and definitely don't touch anything other people would touch so there aren't many opportunities for me to get sick
20:49 <Nothing\> heh i haven't even had the flu since june of 1999
21:03 <Ampera> Yeah I had my hands and face all around NYC
21:11 <Ampera> I've never had the flu, thankfully
21:14 <Nothing\> i could see getting sick from that
21:23 <Nothing\> really? i didn't think that was possible
21:37 <Ampera> I just haven't caught it
21:43 <Ampera> luck I guess
22:42 <Nothing\> dammit, i've been forced to use a qwerty layout lately cuz my smart TV doesn't support dvorak, so now any time i go on my pi i keep trying to type as though i'm still on a qwerty layout, i keep reaching for the /? key where my question mark is where the [{ key is
22:52 <Nothing\> you ever get a flu shot?
22:57 <Nothing\> you don't strike me as one who would
23:09 <Ampera> When the government let me
23:18 <Ampera> but pharmacies will refuse to give minors flu shots
23:19 <Nothing\> ah, i don't bother with em
23:26 <Ampera> otherwise I'd get them
23:28 <Nothing\> what? really?
23:30 <Ampera> yep
23:43 <Nothing\> you'd think minors would be one of the ones they give the shots to considering you're more at risk of complications
23:47 <Ampera> only if there's a major outbreak will they let pharmacies give me a flu shot, but this should be no longer an issue in 2020
23:52 <Nothing\> young people, old people and unhealthy people, they say
24:10 <Nothing\> but myabe by young they mean like <5y/o
24:14 <rust_collector> so... people
24:16 <Ampera> I have to go to a doctor for one
24:40 <Ampera> which usually means an appointment, and I also no longer have a general care physician
24:58 <Nothing\> heh i realized the other day i have no idea where my immunization record is, and i've changed family doctors so many times they don't have my medical records anymore
25:16 <Nothing\> i wonder what happens if you get 2 immunizations for the same disease
25:27 <Nothing\> i'd imagine nothing if they're spaced out
25:36 <Ampera> My doctor was grabbing my balls once and I asked him, what does it mean if I have more than two?
26:07 <rust_collector> I got 2 tetanus shots, not sure if they work in the same way
26:12 <Nothing\> Ampera: man that sucks, i went a while without a GP myself, so if i ever needed a doctor the only thing i could do was sit in the clinic and wait for 2 hours to see somebody just so they can tell me what i already know
26:26 <Ampera> If I wanted one I'd have one
26:26 <Nothing\> the only reason i ever see a doctor is if i need a script or some treatment i can't do myself
26:43 <Ampera> it's just that I have no reason to go to one at this point in my life
26:50 <Ampera> if I have a serious problem I will go to a clinic or the ER
26:56 <Nothing\> rust_collector: yeah tetanus is one that comes to mind cuz i've had to get a couple of tetanus shots due to cuts or burns
27:28 <rust_collector> I got 2 in 2000, in a week
27:52 <Nothing\> Ampera: i'm no doctor, but i'm at least well versed enough in medicine to be able to figure out what's wrong with me and how to treat it, or if i can't figure it out i can at least look it up online
28:07 <Nothing\> so i only ever need to see one if i need a script
28:27 <Ampera> There usually isn't much physically wrong with me
28:36 <Ampera> mentally is a whole other story, but there's not much anyone can do about that
28:44 <Nothing\> yeah you're young and healthy, you shouldn't need a doctor anyways
28:50 <Nothing\> at least, physically healthy :P
29:16 <Nothing\> lol squirrels are out there eating
29:17 <Ampera> I do intend to go to an ENT and consult about a potentially deviated septum, because I have horrific nasal breathing issues
29:25 <Nothing\> you and me both, man
29:31 <Nothing\> do you use any nasal sprays?
29:39 <Ampera> no because they don't work and I absolutely hate taking them
29:45 <Nothing\> i forget the american brand for oxymetazoline spray... otrivin was it?
29:53 <Nothing\> that's good
30:05 <Ampera> any foreign liquid in my nose is incredibly painful for some reason
30:06 <steve30> I tried various steroid sprays before I had Septoplasty. They didn't do anything.
30:18 <Nothing\> they actually do work, the oxymetazoline ones, they work REALLY well too, like within minutes your sinuses are perfectly clear, but they're also very addictive physically
30:35 <Nothing\> that is, the more you use them, the more congested you get without them
30:37 <Ampera> The only thing that occasionally works is aspirin, but that mostly just brings it from really bad (like during a cold) to less really bad
31:01 <rust_collector> snorting aspirin. sounds fun
31:03 <Nothing\> my dad got me using nasal sprays when i was 12 or 13 and as a result of that i've been addicted to them and have used them every day since
31:24 <Nothing\> rust_collector: lol i actually did snort aspirin once when i was young and dumb (sorta)
31:41 <Ampera> why
32:10 <Nothing\> when i was using street opioids i came across a percodan, which is oxycodone and aspirin, which i wanted to snort but i knew the aspirin would hurt, so i broke a teeny tiny little chunk off of it and did a test snort
32:25 <Nothing\> and it was hands down the most painful thing i ever put up my nose, i felt like i'd been kicked in the face
32:38 <Nothing\> couldn't imagine if i did the whole thing
32:50 <Nothing\> ah to be young and dumb again... instead of just old and dumb
32:51 <rust_collector> we used to have (I think) salt water that you dripped into your nostrils, and I am not sure if they did ever work, but it was annoying enough, that you quit complaining
32:59 <Ampera> neti pots
33:09 <Ampera> fucking hell that would be absolute torture for me
33:10 <Nothing\> oh yeah, actually salt water is better to use for that
33:23 <Ampera> I would rather be impaled alive than use a neti pot
33:33 <Nothing\> your body's natural salinity is 0.9% so if you put pure water up your nose, the osmosis causes a lot of irritation and pain
33:38 <Nothing\> that's why it hurts to get water up your nose
34:00 <Ampera> Nothing\, did you get a Pi4 yet?
34:06 <Nothing\> they have nasal spray that's just 0.9% salt water
34:12 <Nothing\> Ampera: nah, i don't think i will actually
34:28 <Nothing\> there's nothing about it really that excites me, although the faster CPU is mildly tantalizing
34:35 <Ampera> I might get it at some point to expand the number of heads my system has
34:36 <Nothing\> and the RAM
34:47 <Ampera> well what about the hardware video decoding?
34:53 <Nothing\> i didn't think it had that
34:59 <Nothing\> i didn't see anything about dedicated hardware
35:01 <Ampera> yep, can do YouTube now, no problem
35:34 <Ampera> https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-4-on-sale-now-from-35/
35:43 <Ampera> 4K60p hardware decode of HEVC
36:01 <Nothing\> although lately i discovered this:
36:02 <Nothing\> https://lushprojects.com/circuitjs/circuitjs.html
36:25 <Nothing\> i have a standalone version that runs with java, but it's an older version and this one's so much nicer, but it runs a bit slow
37:21 <Nothing\> i mean, it runs at a usable speed for simple circuits, but for the more complicated stuff with dozens of components, it's annoyingly slow and takes forever cuz i have to run it at a low time base
37:51 <Nothing\> i tell you though, this simulator is probably the single greatest resource i've come across when it came to learning electronics, i don't even think i would have gotten into electronics without it
38:37 <Ampera> speaking of learning I'm in college now
38:38 <Ampera> full time
38:46 <Nothing\> no shit? that's awesome man!
38:56 <Nothing\> keeping busy will definitely help make you feel better
38:57 <Ampera> except that it's almost all grunt work
39:07 <Nothing\> it may not help the root cause, but at least you'll be distracted in a helathy way
39:08 <Ampera> lol, maybe a bit
39:14 <Ampera> but everything else is getting worse as it happens
39:24 <Nothing\> aw man, i'm sorry
39:27 <Ampera> tensions are higher than ever, and there are issues on all fronts in my family
39:46 <Ampera> There basically is nobody who doesn't have a problem with someone else
40:06 <Nothing\> i've actually been feeling a lot better, i've cut way back on how much pot i smoke and i'm hoping to be able to stop all together, but i realized smoking pot was actually causing me a great deal of anxiety, not to mention killing any motivations i had
40:38 <Nothing\> damn man, see that's part of the reason why i don't have any social relationships, the drama just isn't worth it, but that's a subjective matter
40:50 <T3sl4> Nothing\: that looks like a mirror of falstad's
40:52 <Nothing\> i don't even have any family really, i have my mom and that's it
41:11 <Ampera> I never went on about it with you in particular, but my dad has a girlfriend now
41:26 <Ampera> and I would need a /lot/ of time to explain everything that's gone fucked because of that
41:34 <Nothing\> T3sl4: yup, it's an updated version of it, lots more components and types of output, like there's an audio output that lets you listen to a signal, or they've got triacs and diacs now, on top of the SCRs, and additional example circuits etc
41:43 <T3sl4> ah
41:59 <Nothing\> T3sl4: you ever go to paul falstad's site? he actually has a lot of really cool simulation apps on there
42:12 <Nothing\> one of my favorites is one that simulates electric fields in 2d
42:32 <Nothing\> i think there's a 3d one too, but anything 3d i tried to run ran slow
43:10 <T3sl4> only some were converted from java last i checked, but if you go to the trouble of running an applet they're still cool
43:17 <Nothing\> Ampera: ah shit man, i went through the whole divorce and gf thing myself when i was 14 but it was easier on me because i wasn't that close to my dad, he basically pissed off and got a new family
43:20 <T3sl4> probably more are HTML5/JS now?
43:37 <Nothing\> i remember the one time his step son got arrested for growing pot, so he bought him a fucking car
43:49 <Ampera> Nothing\, yeah it's way more complicated with that
43:55 <Nothing\> it always is
43:58 <Ampera> and shit's going down one level up, with my grandfather, aunt, and uncle in law
44:25 <Nothing\> T3sl4: yeah i think most of them are javascript
45:08 <Nothing\> i know this version of circuitmod is javascript cuz when i went to download the standalone version it was a fucking exe
45:10 <Nothing\> :/
46:48 <Nothing\> you ever use desmos or geogebra, T3sl4?
47:20 <Nothing\> i've recently been having a lot of fun with geogebra, i used to prefer desmos cuz it's easier to use but i'm finding geogebra is a LOT more versatile if you take the time to figure it out
48:12 <Nothing\> i've been learning about impedance and phasors and reactance and all of that fun stuff lately, so being able to draw my own phasor diagrams without needing graph paper is really nice
49:18 <Nothing\> Ampera: well i hope that all gets resolved, man
49:31 <Ampera> lol
49:36 <Nothing\> it's a shitty thing when the people you live with cause you stress cuz there's just no escaping it
49:41 <Ampera> It won't get resolved.
49:56 <K> get a bigger rug!
50:04 <K> to sweep everyting under!
50:04 <Ampera> All that will happen is I will deal with years of hell until I reach the point in my life to where I can distance myself physically from it
50:11 <Ampera> Exactly, K
50:20 <K> or to roll a body in
50:34 <K> or several.
51:01 <Nothing\> Ampera: maybe working towards distancing yourself from them at least to some extent might help
51:23 <Nothing\> i'm not saying to weed your family out of your life entirely, but at least mitigate your exposure to the stress they cause
51:39 <Nothing\> but that would require moving out, at least as a long term goal
51:41 <Ampera> If you have any suggestions to that besides staying in my room and trying my best to ignore everyone while feeling trapped and unable to do anything I want to in my own home, I'm willing to take them
51:59 <Ampera> since that's basically what I'm doing now
52:06 <Ampera> because I hate his girlfriend
52:12 <Ampera> and she basically lives here now
52:14 <Nothing\> yeah it's either that or move out, unfortunately
52:26 <Ampera> So it's either that or do something I legally can't do
52:27 <Nothing\> maybe try to go out of the house more
52:35 <Nothing\> i find going for a walk does wonders for me when i'm stressed
52:42 <Ampera> I already do all of that
52:47 <Nothing\> ah damn
52:54 <Nothing\> have you considered hard drugs?
52:55 <Ampera> but unless I intend to powerwalk every minute of every day, that doesn't help me much
52:57 <Nothing\> lol jk
53:06 <Ampera> I've considered suicide, multiple times
53:06 <Nothing\> yeah i know what you mean
53:11 <Ampera> but I'm too lazy to kill myself
53:23 <Nothing\> well don't, believe me i've gone down that road and it doesn't lead anywhere helpful
53:39 <Ampera> well I mean you're not dead, so how do you know?
53:45 <Nothing\> i'm glad you're not into self harm or self destructive behavior
53:50 <Ampera> that just means you did a real shit job of it
53:52 <Ampera> lol
53:55 <Ampera> I am I just don't exercise it
54:03 <Nothing\> well i'm just talking about the effects that considering it has on your mental state
54:44 <Ampera> well there is always a thing as being more fucked in the head, but at this point I can't control what I do or don't feel more than I already do
54:51 <Nothing\> that's why i got into self harm and self destructive behavior, i was desperate for relief and death wasn't a feasible solution so i was just trying anything and everything i could think of
55:19 <Nothing\> it's really sad actually, my grandfather's been getting dementia and has been in a home for the last few years and he's gotten to that point of desperation
55:50 <Ampera> I don't harm myself because physical pain is the one thing I have very little of
55:53 <Ampera> I don't want to add to my pain
55:58 <Nothing\> it doesn't help that half the time he doesn't know where he is or why
56:08 <Ampera> self harm is more of a depression thing, I don't have depression because I feel everything
56:34 <Ampera> but I think about the glory of death on a daily basis to the point where it's has a sexual nature to it
56:37 <Nothing\> that's good, you should take solace in the fact that despite your stress, you're the most sensible person i think i've ever come across in such a state
57:01 <Ampera> pure mental strength I suppose, but it's not boundless
57:16 <Nothing\> indeed, everyone has their breaking point
58:03 <Nothing\> well, one thing i find that helps at least mitigate the stress of terrible situations, i find that no matter how crappy an event is, there's always some sort of upshot to it
58:22 <Nothing\> for example, i have no doubt that going through this stuff has caused you to mature faster than average
58:41 <Nothing\> in fact i'd wager it's provided you with a lot more strength and wisdom than most events in your life
58:43 <Ampera> Probably the main thing that helps me is my imagination.
58:54 <Nothing\> yeah? how's that?
58:59 <Ampera> I imagine myself as other people, I look at people and imagine that I'm them
59:03 <Ampera> in different times and different places
59:12 <Ampera> I think about having different problems, ones that aren't so impossible to solve
59:29 <Nothing\> ah yeah, i used to sort of do that except i'd envy them and wish i were them rather than thinking about it in detail
59:32 <Ampera> being able to simply live with less pain, away from everything and everyone.
59:40 <Nothing\> oh i know, man!
59:46 <Nothing\> that's one reason i miss my childhood so much
59:49 <Ampera> but it gets deep
00:02 <Ampera> it goes into time too, being able to live in a different time
00:19 <Ampera> for the past is another country, they do things differently there
00:29 <Ampera> and different is all I really want
00:33 <Nothing\> just being able to get pleasure from such simple things, being ignorant of all of the terrible stuff in the world
00:44 <Nothing\> being able to interact with people without a second thought
00:59 <Ampera> The issue is that my imagination is also like a drug. When I think about being someone else I eventually have to stop, and then be myself
01:04 <Ampera> and that is one of the worst sensations in the world
01:39 <Nothing\> like the opposite of waking up from a bad dream
01:51 <Nothing\> except you're waking up from a good dream and finding things are worse
02:04 <Ampera> It's as if my mind can always brush fingers with the reality it wishes so dearly to be in, but can never find its way past.
02:20 <Ampera> to find that all the things I ever wanted are just as distance and impossible as before
02:32 <Ampera> and all the problems I have to deal with are still there, and never going away
02:36 <Nothing\> you should read about the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, i think you'd like it
02:43 <Ampera> I know what it is
02:46 <Nothing\> ah well there ya go
02:51 <Ampera> indeed
03:01 <Nothing\> but yeah i always liked that notion
03:17 <Ampera> I think one of the most dangerous thoughts I've had time and time again, though, is the thought that when I die I will get the ability to be whoever I want, whenever I want, however I want
03:26 <Ampera> to pick my own pain instead of being forced into whatever pain I have
03:54 <Ampera> the thought that whatever might lay beyond life, better or worse, is simply different is incredibly common
04:09 <Ampera> and as I said, I don't strive for better or worse, I strive for different
04:31 <Nothing\> they say one of the things that helps make us happy is novelty
04:32 <Ampera> but those thoughts can't push me much, it's strange that I can't ever bring myself even close to doing it
04:41 <Nothing\> new experienes, sensations, etc
04:57 <Nothing\> actually, that might be an idea worth exploring just to help your pain in general
05:00 <Ampera> my mind is also horribly tainted with thoughts of anger, pain, and aggression
05:10 <Nothing\> try introducing some novelty to your life and see if it at least takes your mind off of it
05:17 <Ampera> too many time I feel like I need to restrain myself from hurting someone randomly or myself randomly
05:46 <Ampera> I was in NYC recently taking the subway, and thought so often about what it would be like to crawl down there while nobody was looking and lay my head/neck on the tracks
06:02 <Ampera> I think about suicide, about how much pain would be worth doing it, how much pain means to me, because that is really the only barrier
06:07 <Nothing\> acttually that's one reason i've been studying so intensely the last couple of weeks cuz it keeps me distracted from stressful thoughts
06:08 <Ampera> and as I said, I'm not depressed, I feel everything
06:43 <Nothing\> well one thing you should consider about suicide too is you can't be sure that it's going to lead to something good, or at least neutral
06:59 <Nothing\> it's just as likely that the afterlife could be more painful than what you're experiencing now
07:01 <Ampera> What I know about suicide is that it leads to something else
07:11 <Ampera> it may be nothing, it may be heaven, it may be hell
07:12 <Nothing\> so does being convicted of murder
07:19 <Ampera> exactly
07:24 <Nothing\> something else doesn't necessarily mean it's better
07:35 <Ampera> as I said, I've thought about hurting people before, never have I been unable to restrain myself, but I do
07:56 <Ampera> I think about what people around me I could easily kill, how any one person around me likely wouldn't have the ability to stop me from running up and just killing them
08:07 <Nothing\> i've never had thoughts of harming others, they always revolve(d) around hurting myself
08:11 <Ampera> punching, kicking, cutting, shooting
08:33 <Ampera> In the same way I would never kill myself, I have the ability to make sure I never hurt someone else
08:41 <Ampera> My mental stamina is not drained to that point
09:02 <Nothing\> aww one of the squirrels just threw another one off of the fence into the garden
09:06 <Nothing\> i didn't know they did that
09:10 <Ampera> the funny thing is while I'm having this conversation I'm listening to a song called "I love life"
09:11 <Ampera> :P
09:26 <Nothing\> lol
09:28 <Ampera> but it's in french
09:35 <Nothing\> ah french songs are nice
09:38 <Ampera> Idk if you have audio on your pi
10:13 <Nothing\> ever listen to champs elysees?
10:15 <rust_collector> 8 bit versions of classic black metal seems to be a thing
10:19 <Ampera> no
10:43 <Nothing\> ah it's a classic french song, nofx did a nice punk style cover of it in the 90s too
10:46 <Nothing\> if you know of them
11:07 <Nothing\> rust_collector: yeah actually i had a friend who used to make those for classic rock
11:18 <Nothing\> pink floyd and stuff like that
11:36 <Ampera> This is an ESC song
11:41 <Nothing\> ESCZ
11:42 <Nothing\> ?
11:43 <Ampera> from 1986, sung by a 13 year old
11:49 <Nothing\> ah
11:53 <Ampera> Eurovision Song Contest, something I am way too addicted to
12:02 <Nothing\> i don't listen to music anymore
12:25 <Ampera> Time is also really weird for me. I get incredibly fascinated by the past, to the point of even the most mundane things being incredibly neat and interesting
12:32 <Nothing\> i love music, but any time i hear it it ends up getting stuck in my head and repeats obsessively over and over and over and over again for weeks on end
12:37 <Ampera> like as if I could place myself in them, walk around in that world and experience it in my mind
12:50 <Nothing\> it's even to the point where i have to mute the music in my games so that won't happen
13:10 <Ampera> Yeah if I were to give you the songs I listen to
13:11 <Ampera> heh
13:13 <Ampera> you'd never stop
13:15 <Nothing\> any time i played new super mario bros on the wii the title music would get stuck in my head for a week or so like that
13:36 <Nothing\> apparently this is common in people with OCD
13:49 <Nothing\> which i've always suspected i have, to some degree, though i haven't been diagnosed
14:32 <Nothing\> i've been diagnosed with rapid cycling bipolar, but the more i think aoubt it thess likely it seems
14:59 <Nothing\> plus that whole diagnosis was based on a line i drew on a white board lol
15:20 <Nothing\> and the fact that my family has bipolar in it, though agian those diagnoses were questionable
15:54 <Nothing\> he just told me "alright draw a line to represent your mood over the course of a year" so i drew a sinusoid and he's like "yup, that's bipolar alright"
16:15 <Nothing\> brilliant technique, huh? sure beats any lab based methods by a long shot
16:18 <Nothing\> lol
16:35 <Ampera> fuck mental health people
16:46 <Ampera> holy fuck are so many of them just absolute fucking trash
16:48 <Nothing\> it's kind of a tricky thing
17:05 <Nothing\> yeah i agree, there's a lot of questionable shit in it
17:10 <Ampera> If you can't help, don't fucking try
17:16 <Nothing\> oh man, i know
17:26 <Nothing\> one thing i can't stand is people who try to help you like that
17:55 <Nothing\> psychiatry DOES work for some people though, so it at least has some sort of merrit
17:59 <Ampera> I've went off before about therapists being fucking awful people to those with gender dysphoria
18:16 <Ampera> but I believe they genuinely have misdiagnosed and caused permanent serious harm to hundreds, if not thousands of people
18:30 <Nothing\> and you have to consider that compared to how it used to be, it's a hell of a lot better, though that still doesn't excuse it, just helps to understand it a bit better
19:12 <Nothing\> well, therapists are different, a psychiatrist only treats you with medication, they wont actually talk through any problems with you
19:26 <Nothing\> Ampera: i have absolutely no doubt of that either
19:41 <Nothing\> i went through the whole medication thing and yeah, it caused more problems than it helped
19:57 <Ampera> The issue is that I don't even have a side-effect pill to fix my issue
20:04 <Nothing\> finding the right medication is a glorified guessing game
20:12 <Ampera> the official treatment is to radically change my body and its chemistry, and to try to fake it so hard that I might make it
20:27 <Ampera> and I have no issue with lying to myself, but only so long as the lie is at least somewhat convincing to me
21:24 <Nothing\> they give you a medication that causes horrible side effects and you don't even know if that medication works until you've been taking it for 2 months and by that point you've become physically dependent on it, even though they say they're not supposed to be addictive
22:11 <Ampera> I sometimes so desperately want to break, because I think that if I do, I might make it through somehow
22:20 <Ampera> and that my own sense of self-preservation might be what is keeping myself back
22:30 <Nothing\> then if/when it doesn't work, you have to endure the withdrawal effects for a week or two and then move on to the next medication only to do the whole thing over again
22:34 <Ampera> but my mental stamina is so high I can't do that, even in my weakest moments
22:56 <Ampera> That genuinely sounds better than my treatment options
23:16 <Ampera> like I would take sczhioaffective disorder over what I have *today*
23:30 <Ampera> but it doesn't work like that
23:32 <Nothing\> heh i've often thought the same thing, myself
23:46 <Ampera> as in you'd rather have my issue?
24:25 <Nothing\> nah, i thought stuff like i wish i'd be diagnosed with schizophrenia or something so i at least know what's causing me to be so screwed up
24:48 <Ampera> Schizoaffective disorder is sort of like bipolar and schizophrenia had a baby
25:07 <Ampera> It's very likely I am slightly bipolar since there is a family history of it, but not severely so
25:09 <Nothing\> or envying people with other types of problems, wishing i were them
25:12 <Ampera> and schizophrenia, I don't know
25:26 <Ampera> as I said, i wish I had other problems, one I can solve
25:48 <Ampera> Not that the history of mental disorders is anything peachy, but I genuinely believe that common mental orders have less of a public stigma around them.
25:58 <Nothing\> they do and they don't
26:03 <Ampera> Someone can't look at you and know if you have bipolar, often not even hear
26:15 <Ampera> but with me, if I were to transition, everwhere I walk, everwhere I talk
26:20 <Ampera> more likely than not everyone will know
26:30 <Nothing\> yeah i still feel self conscious about talking about mental helath problems i have with other people
26:33 <Ampera> My lie will only be as strong as I can do it to myself
26:36 <Nothing\> ah crap i should check my blood sugar
26:41 <Ampera> lol
26:55 <Ampera> you'd get along quite good with me and my aunt and my grandfather
27:02 <Ampera> we're a lot of fucking mental rejects
27:52 <Nothing\> ah 5.3, a tad low for me but still ideal
28:13 <Nothing\> yeah man, that's one thing we're missing in our lives is like minded people
29:15 <Nothing\> it's one thing to talk online, but studies have shown that it's not a sufficient replacement for physical social interactions, especially considering something like 15% of our communication is actual words and the rest of intonation, body language, pitch, speed of talking, stuff like that
29:21 <Ampera> You know the sensation when you have a cold, where all you can feel is a deep will to not have it?
29:30 <Nothing\> i think so
29:33 <Ampera> you just sit there, in a pool of mucous and pain, waiting to escape it
29:40 <Ampera> that's how I feel with my issues
29:47 <Ampera> that all I can do is wait to get better as the pain mounts and mounts
30:57 <Nothing\> ah yeah i wouldn't do well if i ever got sick, i have stomach problems as it is and if i get even the slightest twinge of discomfort it causes me a great deal of anxiety as i worry that it'll lead to more intense nausea and vomiting, which is excrutiatingly painful when it happens
31:21 <Nothing\> so it's like i have anxiety attacks just in anticipation of it, and of course that just adds to the nausea as it is
31:39 <Nothing\> vomiting never used to faze me, but for some reason now it's so painful
31:50 <Nothing\> i'm glad i don't do it much anymore
32:16 <Nothing\> that's gotta be one of the hardest things for me though, is going through stuff like that and having no control over it
46:57 <Ampera> fuck I hate anxiety
47:07 <Ampera> without my gender problem I wouldn't have any at all
47:11 <Nothing\> tell me about it, one of the worst feelings ever
47:18 <Ampera> but because of it, and almost anything relating to it I have incredible anxiety
47:40 <Ampera> it makes me feel so powerless to help myself, and is the core reason why I have not transitioned yet
47:58 <Ampera> and I was right, if I had transitioned, if I put the power and energy into doing it, I would likely be in a much better place right now
48:22 <Nothing\> you should look into propranolol, or a beta blocker for it, it's a really ideal medication for me because it works by just blocking adrenaline from binding to receptors, but it doesn't affect your mental state or level of awareness, isn't habit forming and the worst side effect you'd be likely to get is getting a little dizzy if you stand up too fast
48:49 <Nothing\> it's used as a blood pressure med, but it works great for anxiety too
48:56 <Ampera> The thing is I don't know if there's medical anxiety and mental anxiety
49:10 <Ampera> but my anxiety has direct and reasonable causes, they're more extreme fear and angst instead of anything irrational
49:27 <Nothing\> only thing is, the effects are strictly physical, it won't relieve the mental part of it, but i find the physical symptoms can make me even more anxious, so cutting them down can help
49:41 <Ampera> I don't have physical symptoms, purely mental
49:43 <Nothing\> yeah there definitely is
50:24 <Ampera> sometimes the pain can get so powerful to the point that it defeats it, point where i break and move into a position I get more comfortable with
50:38 <Ampera> The farthest I've gone is public crossdressing in a few small instances
50:46 <Nothing\> there's clinical anxiety where you get anxiety in response to things that shouldn't normally cause you anxiety, then there's situational anxiety where you get anxiety in response to something that would give any normal person anxiety
51:10 <Ampera> whatever the fuck it is, I hate it
51:16 <Nothing\> and the main thing is that it's bad enough to interfere with your life
51:28 <Nothing\> the awful thing is when you get into those anxiety cycles
51:33 <Ampera> This is all interfering with my life.
51:46 <Ampera> I've had minor ones, but it's normally when I let my mind free
51:47 <Nothing\> anxiety feedback loops, i guess they would be
51:53 <Ampera> (feedback lops)
51:54 <Ampera> *loops
52:13 <Nothing\> like i feel shaky, which makes me anxious, which makes me shake more, which makes me more anxious, and so on
52:17 <Ampera> in that I get anxious that I will never be able to fix my problems, but fixing my problems makes me anxious, so it loops
52:32 <Ampera> I just feel pain, that's it. Not sharp, physical pain, but intense to the core pain
52:50 <Ampera> it's as if I was punched, but in no particular place, but also not all over
52:55 <Ampera> just the pure essence of pain
53:36 <Nothing\> heh the first time i took propranolol it actually MADE me anxious because my heart rate got down to like 45 beats per minute, so the anxiety would make my heart rate go up, which would make me stop worrying, which would relax me and cause my heart rate to drop again, which made me anxious, ad infinitum
54:22 <Nothing\> but yeah, i'm to the point where just anticipating anxiety can make me anxious
54:56 <Ampera> I think I've had more physical anxiety once in my life, when I was given epinephrine+diphenhydramine+steroid at an ER for minor anaphylaxis
55:04 <Nothing\> biggest piece of advice i can give you though, do NOT take benzodiazepines for it, stuff like valium, ativan, xanax etc
55:25 <Ampera> that was the first time I've ever been given drugs and could seriously feel their effects. It made me feel small, distant, cold
55:43 <Nothing\> they feel very effective as they put you into a perfectly relaxed state, but long term use inevitably leads to addiction which causes worse anxiety problems than you had to begin with
55:45 <Ampera> I personally do not want to take any serious medication I don't feel I absolutely need
55:54 <Ampera> The most dangerous medicine I take is Aspirin.
56:13 <Nothing\> oh yeah, i always worried if i had to be given epinephrine for something like that it'd make me anxious
56:31 <Ampera> no but it was weird, the anxiety (if that's possible) was mostly physical
56:35 <Nothing\> you know, they put epinephrine in the lidocaine at the dentist for local anesthesia
56:41 <Nothing\> apparently it makes the lidocaine more effective
56:50 <Ampera> I've never had lidocaine, only septocaine
57:12 <Nothing\> it also has a neat effect where it blanches the tissue from vasoconstriction, so you can see where it's been taking effect
57:19 <Ampera> Dental anesthesia is weird for me, because I outright refuse nitrous
58:41 <Nothing\> that's good, i mean really there's no reason not to use nitrous unless it makes you nauseous or something, but the way i see it, if you can get away with not using stuff for pain, that leaves it available for if you REALLY need it
00:05 <Nothing\> meanwhile the only way i can get myself to the dentist is with a combination of methadone, ativan and nitrous oxide, plus the lidocaine
00:18 <Nothing\> but i was traumatized when i was a young child, i don't remember if i ever told you about that
00:56 <Ampera> I only use the local anesthesia since I don't trust nitrous
01:12 <Nothing\> getting a filling and the lidocaine didn't work but they thought i was being a typical fussy kid and forced me to endure the rest of it, then after that every time i went to the dentist i'd freak out so their solution was to have 3 or 4 people hold me down in the fucking chair while i was being worked on
01:25 <Nothing\> i have no idea why the fuck nobody suggested nitrous or something for the anxiety
01:54 <Nothing\> i've never been raped, but i imagine it would feel very similar to being held down in a chair by 3 or 4 people while being forced to undergo medical procedures
02:52 <Nothing\> Ampera: well they still use local anesthesia with the nitrous because nitrous won't knock you out or deaden your sense of pain entirely, it'll mitigate your pain and awareness, but you're still conscious and can feel stuff
03:03 <Ampera> Yeah I still don't trust it
03:14 <Ampera> the local anesthesia means I can't feel anything, and that's good enough
04:19 <Nothing\> for me, the best thing about nitrous is that it dissociates your mind from your body, so most of the time when i have it, i don't even notice the dentist is doing anything, and on the rare occasion that i do notice, it doesn't bother me
04:43 <Ampera> Yeah I don't trust anything that puts me in a state of delerium
05:02 <Ampera> I'd rather be fully aware of what is happening so I can report anything.
05:46 <Nothing\> heh i watched a video about the anatomy of an alveolar block, which is when they inject the lidocaine around the nerve that supplies part of the jaw with sensation, so everything past that point of the nerve is numbed
06:08 <Nothing\> apparently when they do that, they have to advance the needle to the point where it hits the bone, that's how they know they're in the right spot
06:43 <Ampera> you know the only thing I truly hate about colds is sore throats
07:21 <Nothing\> which is funny cuz i remember when i was a kid in grade 8 and they were doing the hepatitis b vaccines at school, people were saying that they hit some kid's arm bone when they did it
07:44 <Nothing\> ah man, i haven't had a sore throat in ages
07:49 <Ampera> fucking good
07:51 <Ampera> they're awful
07:52 <Nothing\> at least not caused by illness
07:58 <Ampera> and I always fucking get them
08:15 <Nothing\> when i was in jail last year, i threw up so much that it burned my throat so badly that i lost my voice
08:20 <Nothing\> that was a sore throat from hell
08:44 <Nothing\> cuz all they fed me was fucking granola bars and i have acid reflux
08:56 <Nothing\> not to mention the fact that i'm diabetic, i'm sure that was great for that
09:17 <Ampera> One neat thing about me is I can go good lengths of time without eating if I have to
09:21 <Nothing\> thank god one of the guards was nice enough to give me one of his tums he takes to work, even though he wasn't supposed to
09:24 <Ampera> starving myself is something that doesn't hurt me too much
09:43 <Ampera> Nothing\, Pepcid completes are awesome, I eat far too many of them
09:53 <Ampera> I go through them at a rate of around 1 a day, usually at night
10:32 <Ampera> I just noticed, some of the best ESC songs to ever win are in French
11:14 <Nothing\> lol what, just for the taste?
11:24 <Ampera> Nothing\, no for heartburn
11:35 <Nothing\> ah, yeah anything with calcium carbonate is amazing for heartburn
11:37 <Ampera> I don't have reflux, just frequent heartburn (diet or position or something)
11:41 <Ampera> No this has way more than just that
11:54 <Nothing\> the only thing i hate is they're awful to chew, especially when i'm already feeling sick to my stomach
11:56 <Ampera> it has Magnesium Hydroxide and Famotidine
12:02 <Nothing\> ah
12:15 <Ampera> These are sweetened and mint flavour, they are actually like mild altoids
12:35 <Nothing\> a lot of my teeth are broken so chewing tums is really painful for me on accounto f how hard they are
12:45 <Ampera> These are also fairly soft
12:50 <Ampera> though I like them when they are crisp
13:04 <Nothing\> though they have those chewy tums that are easier to chew, but the flavor's much stronger for some reason
13:25 <Nothing\> i tried these alkaseltzer tablets that look like mentos and they weren't much better
14:10 <Nothing\> also they had "AS" printed on the tablet, which just made me think of arsenic lol
14:50 <Nothing\> man, i need to invest in another calculator
15:22 <Nothing\> i need to do math but my calculator's upstairs and i hate disturbing what i'm doing on the phone like that
15:46 <Nothing\> it'd be nice to have a calculator for at least a few rooms in my house, my bedroom, the bathroom, living room
16:32 <Nothing\> I'd LOVE t oget a graphing calculator, but they cost so much for some reason
17:05 <Nothing\> plus there are graphing calculator apps on my pi anyways, i've really taken to geogebra
18:05 <Nothing\> numberphile always uses geogebra to make these cool visual demonstrations like fractals, so i really wanna figure out how to do that
19:50 <Nothing\> heh maybe you should take up studying math and EE and STEM more intensely, i find that helps to distract me from my problems but only as long as i have the motivation to do it
20:15 <Nothing\> plus having ADD, my attention span is atrocious
20:26 <Ampera> oh fuck man you start talking about calculators while I'm distracted?
20:31 <Nothing\> lol
20:34 <Ampera> Here is the best advice anyone will ever give you on calculators: go HP
20:48 <Nothing\> that's what i was thinking actually, getting an HP Prime
20:50 <Ampera> HP has been the choice of engineers and mathematicians for decades
21:08 <Ampera> I have one right here, excellent calculator, and it has definite advantages, but if most of what you're doing is casual number crunching, I suggest a 50g if you can find one
21:12 <Ampera> or both
21:23 <Nothing\> i've heard good things about them and there's a really nice HP Prime simulator for android that gave me a rough idea of how useful it could be
21:33 <Nothing\> or at least it would have given me a rough idea of it if i could figure out how to use it lol
21:39 <Ampera> 50g has a much nicer implementation of RPN, with CAS on RPN, unlike the HP Prime which is either traditional RPN or Algebraic/Textbook CAS
22:06 <Ampera> Yeah I have little problem since I tend to pick up things quickly, but they are complicated devices. I have a 48g, 50g, and Prime
22:14 <Ampera> and I use the 50g and Prime in school
22:26 <Ampera> I'm actually doing some math right now and I have my prime and xcas open
22:28 <Nothing\> i was trying to work out the value of e as accurately as i could the other day and having a lot of issues with the calculators i was using
23:03 <Nothing\> like mathematica, i would have something like 1/n and it would just evaluate it and return... 1/n
23:55 <Nothing\> and the others just didn't have the precision i needed
24:21 <Nothing\> i tell you, i can't imagine how the hell euler worked it out to what? 22 places i think he figured
24:33 <Nothing\> it would have been so damn tedious
25:10 <Nothing\> although part of me wants to try working something like that out by hand
25:35 <Nothing\> it requires a factorial operation, so lotsa multiplying
27:16 <Ampera> For big big math xcas is always nice
27:30 <T3sl4> sum 1/n! converges extremely rapidly
27:31 <Ampera> I X forward it off my Unix server
27:42 * Ampera submerges T3sl4 
28:00 * T3sl4 supdivides Ampera
28:07 <Nothing\> i've been learning about impedance lately too so i've been learning a lot about complex numbers
28:22 <Nothing\> and it's nice to have a calculator that can do arithmetic on complex numbers
28:40 <Ampera> Yeah the Prime definitely has the better CAS system, but the 50g is nicer to use if you like RPN
28:41 <Nothing\> although i found out my dollar store scientific calculator can do complex numbers too, but it's really awkward
28:49 <Ampera> if you don't like RPN, get the Prime, full stop
30:29 <Nothing\> i've been wanting to learn about filters so i drew up a little syllabus of things i need to know before getting into filters like, obviously caps and inductors, reactance, impedance, complex numbers
31:09 <Nothing\> that's one thing i find with learning EE, if i want to learn about one thing, it usually requires me to know a bunch of other stuff to be able to make sense of it
31:14 * T3sl4 Ampera reverse polish sausages
31:28 * Ampera stacks them up high
31:37 <T3sl4> mmhmmm
31:50 <Nothing\> like i went to read in depth about oscillators and found i need to understand amplifiers and gain and logs and a bunch more
32:14 <T3sl4> yeah, there's good reason the traditional curriculum covers what it does
32:42 <Nothing\> yeah that's the one problem with me being self taught, there are a lot of gaps in what i know
33:10 <Nothing\> it'd be nice if i could find an open course ware type series of lectures on EE
34:02 <Nothing\> i've been getting really interested in thz oscillators and millimeter wave technology lately
34:46 <Nothing\> especially the so called thz gap where there's a huge band in the EM spectrum where commercial technologies just aren't practical
36:20 <T3sl4> you need a lot of tech to play in that band, though
37:06 <Nothing\> yeah, i tried reading a paper from the journal of applied physics on a thz oscillator and it very quickly went over my head
37:58 <Nothing\> still, i'd like to buy a gunn or tunnel diode one of these days and play with it
38:28 <Nothing\> though i wouldn't have the foggiest how i could record a signal that's potentially several dozen ghz
39:07 <Nothing\> i remember neko saying he was doing research into thz oscillators
40:34 <T3sl4> GHz is easily detectable with fairly fast schottky diodes, keeping it in cables/waveguides and impedance matching between them is the more important thing
43:11 <T3sl4> at college we did that with a kit of waveguide components: gunn diode, isolator, whatever tees/pipes/components inbetween, horn antennas, etc.
43:11 <Nothing\> ah, well i should probably start with a proper oscilloscope lol as of right now the only scope i have is one of those $15 jyetech ones. none of the figures it displays for voltage or frequency are right, like if i double the time base, the displayed frequency will drop by 1/2, the lowest time base it goes to is 10us, but it won't trigger on events shorter than 100us
43:29 <T3sl4> usually an RMS meter for measuring signals, but a detector and DC or audio output would be fine
43:44 <Nothing\> that's another thing i'd love to learn more about, RF components like horn antennas and wave guides and such
44:15 <Nothing\> i feel like that'd help me appreciate the components they had to make to accomodate mm wave technology
44:45 <Nothing\> i was reading about how chandra bose had to basically invent all new components for his experiments with mm waves in the late 19th century
45:10 <Nothing\> which i didn't know he was into mm wave stuff, i only know of him from bose eintein condensate
45:28 <Nothing\> i guess that research is considered an IEEE milestone
47:24 <Nothing\> lol this squirrel outside is eating a peanut while he's hanging upside down on the side of the fence from his feet
47:30 <Nothing\> aww he thinks he's a batman
47:59 <Nothing\> it's eerie how much they act like crackheads over these things
51:58 <Nothing\> bloody hell i can't keep my eyes open
52:29 <Nothing\> don't wanna have a nap though, i tried that last week and wound up having 3 naps > an hour with no tips
53:18 <T3sl4> the nice thing about mW is you can make antennas, resonators and such really easily, so it should in principle be about as easy to play with as low frequencies with RLC components in the breadboard
53:22 <Nothing\> maybe i'll play stardew valley, i've been addicted to that game lately
53:31 <T3sl4> the hard part is generating it, and the devilishly hard part is reading it
56:14 <Nothing\> yeah i was reading about using dipoles to detect RF, except this guide had you make a dipole out of wire then attach it to an LED and rectifying diode on it that your phone's transmit signal is supposed to be able to light up, but i really can't see that generating enough voltage to overcome the forward voltage of the diodes
56:41 <T3sl4> there's thousands of V/m inside a microwave oven, plenty to explode an LED :)
56:43 <Nothing\> i have this idea of an RF detector that lights up an LED in response to RF
57:11 <Nothing\> ah i just read 2 nights ago what the power density inside a microwave is, what was it
57:35 <Nothing\> that is, power/area
58:53 <Nothing\> that's another thing, i wanna do some experiments with microwaves and magnetrons cuz i've got about 4 microwaves i found on the curb in my basement
59:50 <Nothing\> i also found a ~30in crt tv the other day, but when i tore it down i found the PCB was cracked around the flyback transofrmerfor some reason
00:03 <Nothing\> lotsa cool stuff in there i can salvage, but it's dirty as hell
00:04 <T3sl4> aw, sad tube
00:17 <T3sl4> heh, probably worth spraying it with the hose first
00:25 <Nothing\> yeah the tube seems to be in good shape, so maybe i can do some experiments with that once i'm comfortable with HV
00:30 <T3sl4> also, evict any roaches that may be lurking within
00:50 <Nothing\> lol for some reason there was a digital oral thermometer inside it
01:20 <Nothing\> i live in a townhouse complex, so there's always good stuff on the curb when people move out
01:40 <Nothing\> i think my mom's getting tired of me bringing microwaves home lol
02:44 <Nothing\> that seems to be the most common useful item i come across is microwaves, and judging from how many videos there are of people stringing microwave transformers together to get high voltages it seems this is a universal phenomenon
02:53 <rust_collector> build a microwave wall, and fill the room with popcorn
03:36 <Nothing\> heh i toyed with the idea of a hand held magnetron so i can cook people and fry electronics with it
04:14 <Nothing\> actually, one really interesting technology i read about briefly last night is the idea of gamma ray or x-ray lasers
04:30 <Nothing\> i think that'd be so cool
04:48 <Nothing\> i bet an x-ray laser would be terrific for crystalography
05:45 <Nothing\> one post on quora was saying how a laser works pretty much the same way as a transmitter antenna, but in the optical (or there abouts) region of the spectrum, or maybe they just meant laser diodes
06:04 <Nothing\> but either way this idea intrigued me, so i've been trying to understand what he meant by that
08:01 <Nothing\> definitely gotta learn more about RF and rx/tx
08:54 <Nothing\> so much to learn about, i'm glad i can take my time and appreciate it at least
08:56 <Ampera> I am tempted to waste money on fried chicken
09:02 <Ampera> but I sort of don't want to waste money on fried chicken
09:04 <Nothing\> why would that be a waste?
09:07 <Ampera> but on the other hand MMM FRIED CHCKN
09:15 <Ampera> because I can't easily make back money I spend
09:18 <Nothing\> heh, i had an egg mcmuffin for breakfast
09:30 <Ampera> and I'd be spending around 12 bucks or so on food, maybe more
09:39 <Nothing\> ouch
10:03 <Nothing\> that's okay, i watched a video the other day where the guy had kobe beef, it was $150 for a 250g serving
10:07 <Ampera> 16 maple kopeks for you
10:16 <Nothing\> they're called loonies!
10:56 <Ampera> the thing is there's no reason I couldn't spend it, I have like 50 bucks cash
12:30 <Nothing\> i have about $120 in cash here, i took money out cuz i was gonna get that reboot of legend of zelda link's awakening but i haven't yet cuz i'm lazy
14:05 <rust_collector> Hop Hop Dazlaklar la la lalala la la la la lalala
14:47 <rust_collector> google translates it to hop hop skinheads... I have no idea
15:11 <Nothing\> lol
15:20 <Ampera> alright imma buckle down and finish my chemistry stuff and then run over to Popeyes
15:31 <Nothing\> hehe you can't resist the fried chicken
15:40 <Ampera> We were going to get pizza/wings tonight but my mom's not feeling up to it, so I still want tastyfoods
15:41 <Nothing\> well, hope you enjoy your dinner man
15:59 <Ampera> Nothing\, if you want I can show you what sort of stuff I've been doing for chemistry
16:08 <Nothing\> have a good one, and feel better, take solace knowing that at least i care about you
16:16 <Nothing\> yeah sure, i like chemistry stuff
16:16 <Ampera> yeee, it's nice to have people who care
16:17 <Ampera> thanks
16:23 <Ampera> yeah I'm still here
16:25 <Nothing\> though i never got into it much in terms of the math
16:31 <Ampera> let me upload my last assignment
16:53 <Nothing\> i sort of skipped right ahead to organic chemistry without learning much about regular chemstry
17:38 <Nothing\> then like 10 years ago i went back and tried to learn regular chemistry and i got as far as the ideal gas law and got confused by the constant in it, i forget which
17:41 <Nothing\> i think it was R
19:02 <Ampera> http://amperaa.net/cdn/SCCC/Lecture5&6AssignmentRedacted.pdf
19:27 <Ampera> There are normally headers on each page with my name, the date, and the assignment, but I removed those
19:54 <Nothing\> i was watching khan academy viideos for chemistry and when he got to the ideal gas law he's like "so PV=nRT" he explained the different variables, then for R he's just like "and R is some constant"
20:19 <Nothing\> and i'm just like "some constant... okay what constant is that? how do i find this constant?"
22:23 <Nothing\> Ampera: cool stuff, makes me wanna give it another shot
23:04 <coppice> Nothing\: the law says PV/T is a constant
25:09 <Nothing\> ah
25:54 <coppice> the actual constant will depend on the units you use to measure P v and T
31:35 <Nothing\> that was the sense i got, and i seem to recall you could use algebra to find it
31:52 <Nothing\> which he probably would have got to if i were more patient about it
32:11 <Nothing\> khan academy rarely disappoints in terms of its quality
33:13 <coppice> Khan academy is pretty useless
33:32 <coppice> Lots of sites derive the constant - e.g. https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry_Textbook_Maps/Supplemental_Modules_(Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry)/Physical_Properties_of_Matter/States_of_Matter/Properties_of_Gases/Gases_(Waterloo)/The_Ideal_Gas_Law
33:58 <Nothing\> on its own, perhaps, but in conjunction with other resources it makes a fine supplement to an education
35:15 <Nothing\> but no educational resource should be dismissed as being useless, even the most dumbed down youtube videos at least introduce their viewers to new concepts or inspire them to learn more about related things
36:27 <coppice> Its garbage. they never edit anything. When they screw up they just put out the video, and make a later video to correct the first. There is no coverage of any particular syllabus. most of the videos are like a brain dump at a moment's notice, without time being taken to think through how to explain something well. it started out with good intentions, but rapidly sank into cynical money making
36:58 <Nothing\> yeah actually i'll give you that, the organization is a damn mess
37:28 <Nothing\> that's the main reason i don't use it as a primary resource is because it's so difficult to form any sort of a syllabus cuz it seems like their stuff's all over the place
38:22 <Nothing\> the videos themselves are a bit more organized though and tend to just stick to explaining one particular concept
39:37 <coppice> I have yet to see a khan academy video that can't easily be replaced with something clearer and half as long
39:40 <Nothing\> you think that's bad though, MIT went as far as to split their lectures up into 2-5 minute long segments and make a playlist for each lecture instead of the having the obvious 1 video per lecture on a playlist for the course
40:03 <Nothing\> yeah they are really long winded too, he really takes his time with the examples
40:44 <coppice> some of the MIT lecturers seem to score well as sleep medication :)
41:57 <coppice> MIT were early to put a lot of material on line, and some of it is presented by pioneers in the field, so there's a lot of good stuff there
42:21 <Nothing\> yeah i wasn't a fan of the guy they have teaching physics now, i liked walter lewin better
42:24 <coppice> the problem is a lot of pioneers are not the most interesting speakers
42:33 <Nothing\> it's a shame they fired him
43:31 <Nothing\> his classical mechanics course was the first taste i had of physics in an actual academic setting, rather than a discovery channel documentary or something along those lines
44:23 <Nothing\> not just something easy to follow that provides the illusion of teaching you something useful
45:59 <Nothing\> speaking of which, apparently youtube considers backyard scientist to be educational content. The guy shoots molten aluminum with a gun, i dunno what that's supposed to teach you
46:17 <Nothing\> except that you look like a jackass when you play with molten metal while wearing shorts and sandals
47:24 <Nothing\> i'm just waiting for the day when that guy hurts himself badly, though in reality he'll probably end up hurting his GF or one of his neighbours worse/instead
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07:53 <Nothing\> lol i just put together an emergency math set of a ruler, compass and protractor just in case i lose my primary math set
08:01 <Nothing\> i think i might be a nerd
22:46 <Ampera> Nothing\, well I've asked someone to get me some Oxymetazoline spray, since my sinuses are more clogged than they've ever been
22:55 <Ampera> I'll ensure to use it sparingly :P
36:00 Quit: DogWomble ([email protected]) EOF from client
39:47 <Halcyon_> Hey Ampera
39:55 <Ampera> Hi Halcyon_
39:56 <Ampera> how do
40:01 <Halcyon_> Meh
40:08 <Ampera> eevblog time
40:08 <EEVBlog> Ah shoot, Doc! We've ended up at 06:40 Sydney time.
40:09 <Halcyon_> About to go to work
40:21 <Ampera> ah, I'm sitting here suffering with a head cold
40:24 <Halcyon_> Although I have an extra long weekend this week. Fri - Mon off
40:34 <Halcyon_> I told you that you were getting sick :P
40:57 <Ampera> and I told you that sore throats could be something other than being sick
40:59 * Halcyon_ hugs Ampera
41:25 <Halcyon_> Have some chilli, it fixes everything
41:41 <Ampera> lol yeah cause that will make my already running and stuffy nose way better
42:44 <Halcyon_> :-)
42:58 <Halcyon_> Anyway I best be off. Talk soon
43:07 Join: ThunderSqueak ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
43:07 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o ThunderSqueak
43:23 <Ampera> Hi ThunderSqueak
43:24 <Ampera> how do
43:36 <ThunderSqueak> I am doing meh, but that is ok
43:38 <ThunderSqueak> how are you?
43:44 * ThunderSqueak is just overtired.
43:49 <Ampera> head cold
43:56 <ThunderSqueak> that sucks
44:03 <Ampera> mostly sinal, because why would it be anything else
44:59 <Ampera> also chemistry homework including problems that were not taught in class
45:04 <Ampera> and are also not explained in the book
45:17 <ThunderSqueak> oh?
45:28 <ThunderSqueak> what level of chemistry
45:36 <Ampera> General Chemistry 1
45:42 <ThunderSqueak> high school level?
45:51 <Ampera> College
45:57 <ThunderSqueak> oh ok
46:01 <ThunderSqueak> what is the problem?
46:20 <Ampera> the thing is I have the problem, but it wasn't explained, so I had to use the student solution's manual
46:32 * ThunderSqueak took and passed chem at university <.<
46:35 <Ampera> but my brain is pretty damn toast atm so I just want to get this stuff out the door, I'm cutting a corner or two
46:45 <ThunderSqueak> oh, yeah... been there
46:48 <Ampera> no I completely believe you could help me, I'm just saying I feel like I got kicked in the head so
47:21 <Ampera> In other news I am addicted to old ESC songs
47:35 <ThunderSqueak> ah
47:38 <Ampera> currently listening to J'amie la vie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U37tKOACQY
02:56 * T3sl4 hugs ThunderSqueak
03:09 * ThunderSqueak gives T3sl4 a hug
03:31 <T3sl4> :)
14:58 <T3sl4> https://i.imgur.com/6VPeuqr.jpg
27:57 <coppice> we all pass chem every day
11:56 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: EEVblog #1249 – How To Read Timing Diagrams https://t.co/9w4wbEsET3
12:56 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: NEW EEVblog Video! EEVblog #1249 - How To Read Timing Diagrams https://t.co/ldEg5aC0xg
19:00 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: RT @LuisFCorreia: This sad puppy has lost its head @eevblog https://t.co/Zmm9iz5BvG
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59:52 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: The EEVblog kitting department https://t.co/vVFuIEhQE6
19:04 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: Mmmm... Fuses..... https://t.co/dGLo1OOlRO
24:07 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: As usual, the price you pay for making niche educational content vs sensationalistic content. https://t.co/9SGBw9hJxi
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50:25 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: FYI, that's 1/10th the number of views after the same time period compared to my previous "INSANE! A 0.02% Process Meter for $9? WTF!" video.
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37:48 <compulsivecoder> Hi
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11:37 <Halcyon_> Hey all
16:02 * DogWomble_ waves at Halcyon_ 
16:06 <Halcyon_> Howdy
16:20 <DogWomble_> how goes?
17:28 <Halcyon_> Not too bad, you?
18:24 <DogWomble_> yeah doing ok
20:00 <Halcyon_> I'm glad it's the weekend, 4 days off! YAY!
20:04 <Halcyon_> I've been so friggin busy
20:18 <Halcyon_> Also the air cond was broken at work today so it was 30 degrees indoors
20:30 <DogWomble_> yeah, we'vve got a logn weekend coming up, my team leader has fortbidden me from working it
21:00 <Ampera> Oh man Halcyon_, you're getting torn the fuck apart on the forums
21:11 <Halcyon_> Oh yeh, I know, I expected it
21:20 <Ampera> because you're full of shit m9
21:28 <Halcyon_> The shit things is I can't just post everything I know from experience
21:30 <Ampera> you're an authoritarian dickhole :P
21:47 <Halcyon_> Maybe so, but get crooks locked up :-)
21:56 <Halcyon_> And that's what society demands
22:01 <Ampera> The thing is you're measuring your metrics of success and the things you need to do your job by your own experiences, and not by the impacts it might have to others.
22:10 <Ampera> No, that's what /you/ demand.
22:26 <Ampera> Crime isn't something to be eliminated, it's something to be reduced.
22:36 <Halcyon_> People as such hypocrites though. They constantly bitch and moan about things that really won't effect their lives. But the moment a crime is commited against them, they are all over us like a rash to get things done.
22:47 <Halcyon_> It's not what I demand
22:58 <Halcyon_> What I demand and what society demands are two very different things.
23:06 <Ampera> It's exactly what you're demanding right now by supporting the elimination of people's rights to not incriminate themselves to police
23:19 <Ampera> So how do you know what society demands?
23:27 <Halcyon_> Because they tell us
23:29 <Ampera> You're not society, you're in a definitively biased position.
23:33 <Halcyon_> Exactly
23:41 <Ampera> Who is they? How do they speak? How do you know they represent society?
23:42 <Halcyon_> So I listen to the studies and the people
24:03 <Halcyon_> Media, social media, complaints, parliamentary enquiries, simply speaking to the public etc...
24:06 <Ampera> My question is to what point should it stop?
24:13 <Ampera> What do you consider to be a right people should keep protected?
24:19 <Ampera> Something you can, under no condition, ever breach for any reason?
24:23 <Halcyon_> I don't know, which is why I said there is a balance and it's not an easy thing to achieve.
24:25 <Ampera> Even if it may make your job impossible
24:36 <Ampera> So you do not know what society wants.
24:43 <Halcyon_> I absolutely do
24:52 <Halcyon_> The majority of Australians support increase to Police powers
24:55 <Ampera> You do not know what freedoms people need, and as I said, all you care about is making your job easier, even if it's at the expense of other people's freedom and liberty
25:04 <Halcyon_> It's a balance
25:06 <Ampera> How do you know that?
25:15 <Halcyon_> You can't have complete freedom, you can't have complete authority
25:19 <Halcyon_> Neither works
25:22 <Ampera> You cannot make that determination because you have an implicit bias to believe that
25:36 <Halcyon_> Yes, I have biases, but I'm not counting MY opinions
25:40 <Halcyon_> I listen to those of the average person
25:43 <Ampera> in the same way China would tell you that all of their citizens love their authority, you're telling me the same things
25:53 <Ampera> You cannot listen to everyone
25:57 <Ampera> studies cannot listen to everyone
26:08 <Halcyon_> Look, we've had this argument and there is absolutely no way I can demonstrate to you what I'm saying has merit
26:14 <Halcyon_> So why bother?
26:24 <Ampera> So what you're saying is you believe something should be the case, but cannot tell me why?
26:35 <Halcyon_> I told you why
26:38 <Ampera> That you simply have the information to get the answers for society?
26:50 <Halcyon_> Crime reduction, locking up serious criminals, protecting the community
26:52 <Ampera> You told me that people want it, and I don't care who you are, but no single person can ever claim to know what the people want.
27:13 <Ampera> Presidents and leaders claim to know what the people want all the time, but it's all too often simply what they want, as they only wish to hear those who agree with them.
27:26 <Ampera> Halcyon_, locking up all who walk the streets would eliminate crime
27:31 <Halcyon_> I don't agree with those who claim all criminals regardless of the crime should be treated equally. I also don't agree that those convicted of serious crimes should have the same liberties as you and I
27:40 <Ampera> so I ask you again, where do you draw the line between a freedom you can never infringe upon, and one you can?
27:58 <Ampera> By that you are stating that human rights do not apply to all humans
28:04 <Halcyon_> Correct
28:08 <Ampera> and that there is a barrier of action by which people should be abandoned
28:19 <Ampera> and it is exactly that which makes authoritarianism dangerous
28:33 <Ampera> because when you start to proclaim that, you come to the issue that someone has to decide who is beyond reprive
28:39 <Halcyon_> Because if you fail so badly at life that you're a piece of shit, you relinquish certain rights, for example, being able to associate with children, not be tracked, not have your phone calls monitored etc...
28:47 <Ampera> and you're not talking about how the courts treat people, you're talking about how the police do
28:53 <Halcyon_> And if you don't think that doesn't happen in the US, you're very mistaken
29:01 <Ampera> No, what you said is they deserving of no human rights.
29:07 <Halcyon_> I didn't say that
29:14 <Halcyon_> I said they reliquish certain rights
29:17 <Ampera> Which rights?
29:23 <Halcyon_> I just said
29:25 <Halcyon_> There are others
29:34 <Ampera> Again, the question is what level of freedom is appropriate in your eyes?
30:03 <Ampera> You're literally a police officer, a person who has a reason to transcend basic rights as it directly affects your ability to perform your job.
30:09 <Halcyon_> What we're talking about is empowing law inforcement gather evidence and compel crooks to give up their passwords, not because the Police are bored and have nothing better to do, but because these people fucked up in a big way (and continue to do so).
30:21 <Ampera> You're the exact person who should not be the grand decider of how to treat people
30:34 <Ampera> So here's a question
30:34 <Halcyon_> Well that's not true
30:39 <Ampera> should the police be able to force a confession out of someone?
30:42 <Halcyon_> We set bail conditions all the time
30:49 <Halcyon_> The courts either uphold them or don't
30:54 <Halcyon_> No
31:01 <Halcyon_> But that's not what we're talking about
31:03 <Halcyon_> Not even close
31:05 <Ampera> Should you be allowed to threaten a person with guaranteed penalties if they do not admit or provide evidence against them?
31:07 <Ampera> Wrong.
31:17 <Halcyon_> Again, not what we're talking about
31:30 <Ampera> By allowing the police to audit secure data by forcing the decryption of that data, you are in some cases forcing people to incriminate themselves.
31:40 <Halcyon_> How so?
31:40 <Ampera> It is exactly what this law means, and is exactly what will happen
31:48 <Halcyon_> What is there is inculpatory evidence on that device?
31:52 <Halcyon_> *if
32:09 <Ampera> What if there is evidence in the mind of the person?
32:22 <Halcyon_> Once again, not what we're talking about
32:23 <Ampera> They're both encrypted and hidden
32:27 <Ampera> it is exactly what we're talking about
32:33 <Halcyon_> We are specifically talking about electronic devices; Phones, computers, etc...
32:37 <Ampera> and you are still forcing the person to give up that information
32:50 <Ampera> So am I, and drawing comparisons to prove my argument
33:15 <Halcyon_> Well currently as it stands, they either give it up, or we do what it takes to extract that information and belive me, that way impinges on a lot more than just the dick pics on someones phone.
33:25 <Ampera> If there is incriminating evidence on a person's private phone and you force a person to give it up, you are forcing someone to incriminate themselves.
33:39 <Halcyon_> No
33:42 <Ampera> Yes.
33:44 <Halcyon_> Well. no
33:53 <Ampera> A person has incriminating evidence
33:56 <Ampera> you are threatening them to give it up
34:04 <Ampera> for you otherwise wouldn't be able to (or as easily) obtain it
34:18 <Ampera> You are arguing for the ability to do this as a police officer and not as a court on top of it
34:21 <Halcyon_> The threat is, they get charged with offence A or offence B.
34:30 <Ampera> you are demanding the right to do it without permission from any higher authority and on your own intuition
34:43 <Halcyon_> This isn't a lucky dip, crooks don't choose which offences they want to be charged with
34:57 <Halcyon_> No one said without another authority
35:02 <Ampera> The difference is that offense B is a guaranteed conviction, offense A is not
35:17 <Halcyon_> No charge is guaranteed a conviction
35:27 <Ampera> You told me yourself you have the authority to search any person without their consent and without an accusation of wrongdoing
35:38 <Ampera> You are making not giving up your password a crime
35:43 <Halcyon_> If we have reasonable cause to, that is correct
35:50 <Halcyon_> But we aren't talking about a street crook
35:50 <Ampera> If a person does that directly to a cop, I'd say that's pretty guaranteed to me
35:59 <Ampera> What is a reasonable cause?
36:02 <Ampera> How do you prove that to a person?
36:02 <Halcyon_> Depends
36:06 <Ampera> What if you search someone who has done nothing?
36:07 <Halcyon_> I don't have to prove it to a person
36:17 <Halcyon_> It happens all the time, so be it. Shit happens.
36:21 <Halcyon_> Mistakes happen.
36:23 <Halcyon_> That's life
36:25 <Ampera> So what you're saying is without higher authority you have the ability to search someone without a warrant
36:34 <Halcyon_> Correct
36:54 <Ampera> So now how would you feel if I came to you, in roles reversed, and I for no reason demanded you empty your pockets
37:03 <Ampera> I demand you give me your bag so I can upset and rummage through the contents
37:12 <Halcyon_> I'd like a good reason and if that Police office had reasonable cause, I'd respect that.
37:14 <Ampera> I never claim why I do it, and I never give you any method to object or protect your privacy
37:29 <Halcyon_> Me personally, I always tell the person WHY I'm doing what I'm doing
37:32 <Ampera> but you said they never had to surrender that reason to the person they are doing it to
37:33 <Halcyon_> I also give them my name and where I work
37:40 <K> hello
37:44 <Ampera> you said they do not have to accuse the person being searched of a crime
37:46 <Halcyon_> I don't *have* to
37:50 <Ampera> which is my point
37:53 <Halcyon_> But it's the reasonable thing to do
38:00 <Ampera> you have the authority to search anyone for any reason at any time.
38:05 <Halcyon_> Not any reason
38:10 <Ampera> You are the determinator of what reason though
38:12 <Halcyon_> "Because I want to" is not a valid reason
38:17 <Halcyon_> Correct
38:24 <Ampera> So you can come up with whatever reason you'd like
38:30 <Ampera> You could suspect them for anything, without it having to be proven
38:34 <Halcyon_> But that would be lying if it wasn't true?
38:46 <Ampera> So you're telling me police are incapable of lying?
38:59 <Halcyon_> No, I'm saying *I* don't lie in those circumstances
38:59 <Ampera> The whole point is that police can abuse their power like anyone else
39:09 <Halcyon_> Yes, yes they can. Just like criminals can abuse the public
39:20 <Ampera> and when you give the police the unquestioned authority to do such things, there's no reason it couldn't end up being abused to invade the privacy of people
39:36 <Ampera> but you aren't proclaiming anyone to be a criminal by a search
39:42 <Ampera> you don't have to accuse someone and then be required to prove it
39:49 <Halcyon_> What is so wrong with applying to a court for an order to demand a person who has been suspect of a SERIOUS criminal offence to surrender their password?
39:49 <Ampera> You can do it under suspicion alone
40:01 <Ampera> Because that's not what is going on
40:06 <Ampera> the law is to give the police the authority to demand it.
40:20 <K> it stinks.
40:26 <Halcyon_> We already have that authority in certain circumstances, but the penalties are laughable.
40:31 <Ampera> and in the same way you can search without warrant, the law is to demand potentially incriminating information without warrant and under direct threat
41:02 <Halcyon_> Look, you and I will never agree on this. Let's just leave it at that,
41:13 <Ampera> As I said, what would be the difference between threatening someone to give up their password and threatening someone to incriminate themselves?
41:19 <Halcyon_> Your laws don't work here, ours don't work there.
41:30 <Ampera> Your laws don't work there, they're draconian and authoritarian
41:44 <Halcyon_> Hardly.
41:57 <Ampera> They surrender people's freedoms at whim, and I am genuinely concerned about visiting because of that
42:02 <Ampera> in the same way I would never visit China
42:22 <Halcyon_> That just demonstrates how little you actually know about this country and its laws
42:41 <Ampera> Have I said anything incorrect?
42:48 <Halcyon_> Yes, plenty
42:49 <Ampera> That you have the authority right now to search anyone without warrant?
42:53 <K> did you discuss the issue with forgetting the password (both real and lying)?
42:53 <Halcyon_> Yep
42:56 <Ampera> That already is a severe breach of human rights.
43:08 <Halcyon_> K: Yes, it has been brought up, that's the problem with the current laws
43:19 <Halcyon_> In your opinion Ampera
43:21 <Ampera> Now you can force me to potentially incriminate myself without warrant
43:27 <Ampera> and without observation of court
43:31 <Halcyon_> Your opinion doesn't mimic the rest of the world
44:01 <Ampera> No, but it is my opinion, and as I said, I would not want to be in a society that treats me with whatever respect they under no other authority declare to be appropriate
44:25 <Ampera> My opinion doesn't mimic the Soviet Union's opinion either, and their laws work as well as they say they do.
44:27 <Halcyon_> The LAST thing I would want to see is this country turn into America.
44:29 <Ampera> but you nor I would ever want to go there.
44:42 <Halcyon_> You guys have enough problems.
44:51 <Ampera> Different problems for different reasons
44:56 <Halcyon_> Our biggest issue is that encryption is getting harder to bypass
44:58 <Ampera> Blamed on stuff that isn't true, and doesn't correlate.
45:20 <Ampera> So you're saying your issue is that you can't infringe people's privacy easily enough anymore, so you have to threaten people to do it for you?
45:42 <Halcyon_> You realise I don't just sit at work and flick through people's phones and computers because I'm bored right?
45:49 <Ampera> I never said you did
45:54 <Ampera> I'm not saying you are the problem
45:59 <Halcyon_> It's kind of where you're going with this
46:03 <Ampera> I'm saying the problem lies with giving police this sort of power
46:19 <Ampera> because while there may be one benevolent despot, there can be ten more that aren't so kind.
46:47 <Ampera> I could potentially trust you to uphold integrity with authority given to you, but that's because I know you to be (mostly) honorable and working for the good of society.
46:59 <Halcyon_> The things is, it works. Crooks are off the street, society can sleep well at night knowing that we're effective at what we do.
46:59 <Ampera> You cannot ensure that with the entire police, no matter how hard you try
47:04 <Halcyon_> No
47:08 <Halcyon_> Of course not
47:11 <Halcyon_> But no system can
47:11 <Ampera> China also has very few crooks on the street too.
47:21 <Halcyon_> So what? We just give up and say it's all too hard
47:23 <Ampera> Since there is little to no barrier to arrest and conviction in China.
47:43 <Halcyon_> I have no desire to live in China
47:52 <Ampera> How about you find a way to do your job without forcing people to surrender their property and personal information on an individual's whim?
47:54 <Halcyon_> If you also remember several times, I said it was a balance.
47:59 <Halcyon_> We do
48:10 <Halcyon_> It costs a lot of taxpayer money and a lot of time.
48:11 <Ampera> The police here do, and while they may not be as effective, they aren't as dangerous and scary.
48:23 <Ampera> Then use the damn taxpayer money if it's that important.
48:37 <Ampera> Otherwise you might as well start work on technology that can break the encryption of the human mind while you're at it.
48:52 <Halcyon_> Again, for the third time, not what we're talking about
48:58 <Ampera> It's exactly what we're talking about.
49:03 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: And the hypocritical tweet of the year award goes to the UK @foreignoffice CONGRATULATIONS! #FreeAssange https://t.co/LBDA1r2nCU
49:05 <Halcyon_> No. It really isn't.
49:09 <Ampera> We're talking about invading people's privacy to see if they're criminals or not.
49:15 <Halcyon_> Not at all
49:25 <Ampera> So you're not forcing people to turn over their personal details at your whim?
49:26 <Halcyon_> Do you think we just shoot at fish in a barrel and see what happens?
49:32 <Ampera> I don't think /you/ do
49:37 <Halcyon_> No one does
49:41 <Halcyon_> They wouldn't have a job if they did
49:44 <Ampera> however with this sort of power comes with so much ability to abuse it
49:51 <Ampera> How do you know?
49:54 <Ampera> How does anyone know?
50:05 <Ampera> How can you tell when a cop is being honest or not? How do you prove that?
50:11 <Halcyon_> Many ways
50:30 <Halcyon_> Dishonest police become unstuck eventually
50:34 <Ampera> In the same way you're full of shit for saying that the false conviction rate is low because you say so, saying that police just don't abuse authority much because you say so is also full of shit
50:48 <Ampera> So you mean you only catch the people who fuck up publicly?
50:49 <Halcyon_> Find me an example then
51:11 <Ampera> I can't know either in the same way you can't know
51:24 <Ampera> If someone is convicted falsely and *nobody knows otherwise* you cannot know either
51:35 <Ampera> the only person who knows is the convicted and their opinion doesn't tend to weigh so heavy in these matters
51:48 <Halcyon_> I don't think you quite understand just how high the burden of proof is in a court
51:58 <Ampera> We're not talking about courts.
52:00 <Halcyon_> It is fucking rediculous (for the prosecution)
52:07 <Ampera> nvm we are
52:11 <Halcyon_> Well we are, Police don't send people to jail
52:17 <Ampera> It doesn't matter how high it is
52:23 <Halcyon_> Of course it does
52:25 <Ampera> you cannot tell if it's effective at only convicting wrongdoers
52:26 <Halcyon_> And it SHOULD be high
52:33 <Ampera> nobody can, unless you measure it by the input
52:41 <Halcyon_> What do you think evidence is Ampera?
53:01 <Ampera> Evidence is information that can be interpreted in various manners
53:11 <Ampera> People can be sold bullshit and believe it, and it happens all the time
53:15 <Ampera> and there is no reason it can't happen in a court
53:21 <Ampera> no matter how perfect your system is
53:36 <Halcyon_> Evidence is based on fact... it doesn't matter whether you belive it or not.... facts are facts
53:46 <Ampera> Back to you saying that you know what society wants, you also said that you expected to be fucking pissed on for your form post
53:55 <Halcyon_> You leave your fingerprint or DNA somewhere, you can't deny you were at that location now can you?
53:57 <Ampera> How does that line up to you knowing what society wants if you know generally people will disagree
54:10 <Ampera> Halcyon_, DNA and fingerprints can be planted.
54:14 <Halcyon_> Explain how
54:25 <Ampera> take hair from person, put hair in location
54:28 <Ampera> skin, fluids, etc.
54:39 <Halcyon_> Guess what? All can be proven/disproven with EVIDENCE
54:45 <Ampera> people have taken casts of thumbprints, even without the thumb present, to open phones before
54:51 <Halcyon_> One shred of evidence doesn't convict a person
54:55 <Halcyon_> Multiple things do
55:08 <Ampera> You just said that finding DNA and fingerprints proves that a person was somewhere
55:25 <Halcyon_> I'm using an example
55:26 <Ampera> You said that you can't deny that, and I just showed a simple way it can.
55:34 <Halcyon_> I'm not about to explain how criminal investigation works
55:41 <Ampera> I know how it works.
55:44 <Halcyon_> Yep and what if your phone disproves that?
55:51 <Halcyon_> Would you let me extract the evidence?
56:11 <Ampera> If my phone contains information that proves me innocent I would surrender it because it's to my defense's benefit
56:37 <Ampera> However if my phone, despite me not having committed a crime, contains information that may be used to incriminate me, I would not surrender it
56:43 <Halcyon_> Yep, and herein lies the problem. Society expects guilty people to be convicted of their crimes, not when it suits the crook.
56:43 <Ampera> and should maintain the freedom to do so
56:57 <Ampera> Again, you do not know what society wants
57:01 <Halcyon_> If you haven't committed a crime, what evidence is there to support it?
57:02 <Ampera> and you have proven to be in conflict
57:07 <Halcyon_> Not at all
57:13 <Ampera> As if people haven't been framed before
57:27 <Ampera> but I stated that you /expected/ people on the forums to completely disagree with you and your opinion
57:43 <Ampera> so if society apparently wants the police to have more power, why is that the case?
57:47 <Ampera> Why do you expect people to not want it?
57:48 <Halcyon_> Yep, because most Americans are so vocal about it
57:57 <Ampera> Most of the people replying weren't Americans.
58:07 <Halcyon_> You'll also see that most Australian's couldn't care less
58:10 <Ampera> They were people who saw authority turn corrupt because people trusted those above them with it.
58:21 <Ampera> The Romanian person was a perfect example of that.
58:37 <Halcyon_> As I said, I will never charge your opinion and I don't intend to. At the end of the day, I've seen and experienced things you likely never will in your life time.
58:43 <Ampera> Halcyon_, that's because in general people don't care so long as things work to status qup
58:52 <Halcyon_> Yep
59:01 <Halcyon_> And these proposed laws won't effect 99.9% of people
59:09 <Ampera> That's the most retarded copout I've ever seen. /I just know more than you, therefore I am right/
59:13 <Ampera> How do you know?
59:22 <Halcyon_> That's not what I'm saying
59:28 <Halcyon_> I said I can't change your opinion
59:33 <Halcyon_> I have no desire to either
59:37 <Ampera> It also doesn't matter how many people it doesn't affect, if it negatively affects just one person's right to freedom, then it's too much
59:43 <Halcyon_> Your opinion is yours
00:12 <Halcyon_> Well shit, better stay indoors for the rest of your life because your privacy is being invaded every single day you walk down the street.
00:28 <Ampera> That is absolutely and completely different.
00:33 <Halcyon_> Is it? Really?
00:47 <Halcyon_> It has more impact on your life than these laws would if you lived here
00:48 <Ampera> because my privacy isn't being invaded to incriminate me
01:04 <Ampera> It quite often isn't done by the state which is the point.
01:05 <Halcyon_> The only time most people even speak to Police here is if they are a victim or they are stopped for a random breath test.
01:22 <Ampera> In the US people are not required to ever speak to a police officer in their entire life if they do not desire to
01:34 <Ampera> There is no penalty for being verbally uncooperative
02:14 <Ampera> Anyways I have to get ready for school
02:15 <Halcyon_> Being an uncooperative asshole for the sake of your rights is not only rude, but would likely lead you getting locked up if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
03:10 <Halcyon_> Without even looking up the stats, I bet you that your Police would have far more accusations of wrongful arrest, assault and even homicide compared to Police here.
03:13 <Halcyon_> *Far* more.
18:27 <Halcyon_> Also, hello K
18:31 <Halcyon_> I did see you there :P
34:33 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: RT @Kevin_Hainline: 1) I want to talk about this photograph. It's the first photograph ever taken of the backside of the Moon, taken Octobe…
55:24 <Ampera> Oh man I almost passed the fuck out on the bus
55:37 <Ampera> I'm feeling a tad better now, but I certainly ain't doin well
55:59 <Ampera> If there was a day to miss, today wouldn't be the worst, but I'm already here so :/
00:31 <Stiff> you alright?
04:42 <Ampera> Stiff: prolly not
04:47 <Ampera> I have a head cold, but a pretty good one
05:02 <Ampera> I've got my medicine cabinet with me though
16:08 <Stiff> sounds a bit more than a cold if you nearly passed out
17:36 <Ampera> Yeah idk
17:44 <Ampera> it's likely still just a cold and I am weak from it
17:52 <Ampera> I'm commonly known to get very carsick
19:22 <K> bussick
30:27 <damian> weeee
39:30 <Halcyon_> Why are you going to school if you're sick Ampera?
39:39 <Halcyon_> Hey damian
40:46 <Ampera> Halcyon_, because I sort of have to
40:54 <Halcyon_> Sort of?
41:00 <Ampera> I could leave and go home, but that would mean missing some instruction and assignments
41:14 <Halcyon_> Surely you can catch up?
41:20 <Ampera> and some classes also grade on attendance and have limited days they are alright with me being absent
41:31 <Ampera> so I really have to drag myself over if I can handle it
41:38 <Halcyon_> Poop
41:45 <Ampera> I probably could, but I don't know if I'd want to
41:53 <Ampera> since I'm right on the edge of being alright enough to be here and not
42:03 <Halcyon_> Fair enough
42:27 <damian> what's happening
42:33 <Ampera> I am sick
42:35 <Ampera> that's what
42:45 <Ampera> but idk if I'm sick enough for me to be willing to go home
42:50 <Ampera> since I kind of am already here
42:52 <Halcyon_> Not much, long week. Hating work.
43:07 <Ampera> but I'll run through my first class, and see how it ends up
43:08 <damian> ah that sucks
43:14 <damian> on both counts
43:24 <Halcyon_> 4-day weekend though \o/
44:13 <Ampera> All of my weekends are 4 day weekendsm
44:20 <Ampera> full of homework and doing shit
44:23 <Halcyon_> I hate you Ampera
44:31 <Halcyon_> Well I have a uni paper due tomorrow
44:36 <Halcyon_> Done 600 of 3000 words
45:12 <Ampera> papers are easy
45:21 <Halcyon_> Yeh but effort
45:26 * steve30 pounces onto Halcyon_'s lap
45:26 <Halcyon_> At least its on something interesting
45:29 <Halcyon_> Hey Steve
45:39 <Ampera> lazy cunt, I literally dragged my fucked up body over here
45:43 <Ampera> if I can do that you can write some words
45:51 <Halcyon_> I do that every work day at 0645
46:03 <steve30> I need to go and do Grandma's garden, but I don't want to go outside
46:12 <Halcyon_> What's wrong with outside Steve?
46:40 <steve30> outside is cold
46:41 <Ampera> There's police outside and they may demand to see your phone and threaten you with a fine if you don't comply
46:52 <Ampera> that's what's wrong with outside, at least in the land down syndrome
46:52 <Halcyon_> *rolls eyes*
47:01 <Halcyon_> Outside is gorgeous here
47:04 <Halcyon_> Was 30 degrees today
47:11 <Halcyon_> Light breeze, perfect day
47:31 <steve30> Send some of the warmth up here please
47:37 <Halcyon_> I'll box some up for you
47:46 <steve30> :)
47:52 <Halcyon_> Tomorrow is 34
48:09 <damian> why doesn't anyone pounce on my lap!
48:11 <damian> dag nabbit
48:23 <Halcyon_> Because you're a filthy breeder damian :P
48:35 <steve30> I do it to tease halcyon, because he doesn't like cats :)
48:51 <Halcyon_> Sure Steve :P
49:22 <damian> hahahah, breeder
49:36 <Halcyon_> What? You are
49:56 <damian> yeah, i just forgot that was a term
51:20 <Halcyon_> What's been happening damo?
51:25 <Halcyon_> Its been a while
51:55 <Halcyon_> Steve: Did you see the photo of my bird on the forum?
52:06 <damian> yeah, ive just been busy. work, life, whatevers
52:21 <damian> i try and make the rounds to all of the channels, but time gets in the way
57:25 <steve30> yes
57:38 <steve30> Are you teaching him how to use multimeters?
57:44 <Halcyon_> Heheh
58:01 <Halcyon_> He's a cutie
58:39 <steve30> How's the printer?
58:47 <Halcyon_> Noisy :P
58:55 <Halcyon_> I still need to get some continuous feed paper
59:32 <Ampera> I'd give you some, but I'm worried you might arrest me for it.
59:55 <Halcyon_> Also it would cost 3x as much to ship it than it would cost just to buy some
00:13 <Ampera> tractor paper can be quite expensive so I wouldn't know about that
00:13 <damian> rofl
00:16 <damian> continuous feed paper
00:21 <damian> did you get a dot matrix?
00:27 <Halcyon_> Yup :P
00:29 <damian> hahahaha
00:33 <damian> you guys and your retro boxes
00:38 <Halcyon_> A while ago.
00:43 <Halcyon_> It also takes A4 though
00:52 <Ampera> I use a dot matrix for my normal printing since it actually works, unlike the LED printer my dad has
01:02 <Ampera> it also duplexes (sort of) via manual feed
01:58 <Ampera> anyways class is starting, I'll be off
36:43 Join: Guest|8721 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
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21:28 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: The world has progressed too far, I'll take the Snake Plissken 666 option please. https://t.co/N83KvikTkq Geoscience Australia to stop printing and selling topographic maps from December: https://t.co/TXfkrNNrZA
26:32 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: RT @GPF_Chris: @LuisFCorreia @eevblog Is that the new HOT-8 package type I have been hearing about?
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