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// #eevblog — 2019-05-28

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00:17:23 <rust_collector> do an olivetti M24
00:17:33 <rust_collector> that was my first confuser
00:22:49 <K> I have a Olivetti M10
00:23:05 <K> it has the best feel keyboard ive come across
00:23:38 <rust_collector> looks cool, in its own way
00:24:08 <K> yea
00:24:18 <K> 80's
00:28:58 <soulreap> do you have picture i can look at?
00:29:06 <soulreap> i try to draw it then :D
00:30:00 <soulreap> i have a olivetti keyboard for old pentium 133
00:31:24 <rust_collector> http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/userdata/images/large/93/61/product-89361.jpg http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/535/Olivetti-M10/
00:32:08 <rust_collector> Mine had cyrillic on the "side" of the keys, if you feel bored
00:33:13 <soulreap> idk what crylic means
00:33:57 <soulreap> but i will try dray that pc :D
00:34:03 <soulreap> draw
00:42:57 <K> russian alphabet uses cyrilic characters
00:47:47 <soulreap> ooh
00:55:39 <rust_collector> so, a dog just died outside here. at least it was quick
00:56:15 <K> eh?
00:56:20 <K> car?
00:56:24 <rust_collector> no
00:56:45 <rust_collector> some woman was walking her dog, and it just laid down and quit working
01:03:16 <K> pff
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01:22:18 <DHess_US> Women are bad about dog maintanance.
01:38:03 <K> that is a wide statement
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03:01:05 <T3sl4> soulreap: nice perspective :)
03:01:48 <soulreap> hi T3sl4
03:04:47 <DHess_US> Posted in your MOSFET RF amplifier T3sl4.
03:05:12 <T3sl4> nice
03:06:38 <DHess_US> Back in the day, I did all of my class-ab push pull amplifier experiments with normal tripled diffused bipolars so single digit MHz Fts and got about 800kHz bandwidths. I did not know about ring-emitters transistors until later.
03:07:47 <DHess_US> I always wondered how ring-emitter transistors would work in RF amplifiers compared to switchign MOSFETs but never tried it.
03:08:04 <T3sl4> D44H11 and most audio transistors (Sanken, On Semi?) are pretty good, usually a fT peak around 30-60MHz at modest currents (modest given their ratings), the impedance will be quite low though, and stray inductance may be a big problem
03:08:37 <DHess_US> Usually you would use modest currents anyway because of power dissappation limiations.
03:08:49 <DHess_US> So hfe and Ft drop at high currents is not a problem.
03:09:13 <T3sl4> yeah, like it's rated 10 or 20A but the peak is around 1A, which is pretty convenient
03:09:32 <DHess_US> Yep, it's a good match when the collector voltage is high and the power is limited to 10s of watts anyway.
03:09:33 <T3sl4> fT of course drops at low currents too, so i wonder if a class AB amp would be all that great
03:09:55 <DHess_US> Oh, you would use a class-ab amplifier configuration.
03:09:58 <T3sl4> the feedback capacitance in common-emitter is a serious killer though
03:10:08 <DHess_US> Although I've seen it done up to 40MHz with good results.
03:10:23 <T3sl4> at the very least, you'll need a very low impedance driver
03:10:36 <DHess_US> But they don't use ring-emitter transistors. They use power NPN and power PNP RF transistors.
03:11:10 <DHess_US> Which would be a problem today because of poor availability of power PNP parts which is why I wonder how ring-emitter transistors would do.
03:11:30 <DHess_US> Let's see, what PNP part did they use ...
03:11:46 <T3sl4> PNP is nice, avoiding the need for transformers
03:11:53 <T3sl4> which are a PITA especially at these impedances
03:11:56 <DHess_US> They were DC coupled anyway.
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03:15:00 <DHess_US> Yea, pretty common complementary class-ab push-pull configuration but the output transistors were parallelled. Need to check the part number crossreference.
03:15:24 <DHess_US> 20 ohm base resistors and 10 ohm emitter resistors.
03:16:29 <T3sl4> what were they, PN2222s?
03:16:52 <DHess_US> 2N3866 for the NPN, of course.
03:17:13 <T3sl4> oh, that'll be pretty fast then, i have that in my Wavetek func gen
03:17:21 <T3sl4> 5170 PNP or something?
03:17:54 <DHess_US> Yep, 2N5160 for the PNP
03:18:05 <DHess_US> Says selected for something.
03:18:33 <T3sl4> had*, seems they don't tolerate low impedance loads for a long duration, they blew out, i replaced them with a pair of shitty japanese transistors with not nearly enough fT, and i just use a test point before the amp when i need sharp signals from it :/
03:20:44 <DHess_US> Selected for a bunch of things. hfe between 50 and 150, power stress test, and a lot of other things.
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03:21:03 <T3sl4> hm, interesting
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03:22:42 <DHess_US> So not your run of the mill part. Ah, they were selecting for higher than normal Vce among other things.
03:23:11 <DHess_US> But not Ft oddly enough.
03:24:19 <DHess_US> Two 1 watt TO-39 parts in parallel.
03:25:03 <DHess_US> The only other power PNP RF I see from that era is lwoer voltage.
03:25:34 <DHess_US> But I bet you could use four 2N4403s in parallel or something similarly stupid.
03:25:48 <DHess_US> OR 2N2907s
03:26:05 <T3sl4> i once made a 10 x 2N3904 amp, though because the matching sucks, it's just a few MHz BW
03:26:35 <T3sl4> probably lowish noise, but i don't recall measuring anything very interesting either, probably again to do with sucky matching
03:26:49 <DHess_US> Yea, there are some fast low Co parts which might be very useful.
03:27:02 <DHess_US> They aren't quite as fast as the 2N5160 though.
03:27:27 <T3sl4> the now-discontinued BFR/BFQ92s in my collection serve nicely for such purposes, at low power of course
03:28:06 <Ampera> morning
03:28:11 <DHess_US> Only at lower voltages though but I guess you could cascode.
03:28:12 <T3sl4> lo
03:29:36 <DHess_US> The low capacitance part I'm thinking of is the KSA1220
03:30:03 <DHess_US> complement to KSC2690.
03:30:30 <DHess_US> Intended for cascode outputs of video stages but the audio guys like it because its low output capacitance makes for a good high voltage VAS stage.
03:30:59 <DHess_US> Only like 1/3rd the speed of the old parts though. :(
03:31:43 <DHess_US> Wait, that might be the wrong part.
03:34:21 <DHess_US> KSA1142 might be better
03:35:10 <DHess_US> KSA1381 was what I was thinking of
03:35:36 <DHess_US> 3.1pf output capacitance
03:35:39 <T3sl4> not a bad video driver
03:36:15 <DHess_US> Yea, that's the part I was thinking of that the audio guys like.
03:36:27 <T3sl4> i pulled a bunch of 100V, 100mA, 1GHz types from monitors, those are handy from time to time
03:36:33 <DHess_US> All of their favorite low output capacitance high voltage parts are discontued except that one.
03:36:53 <DHess_US> Yup
03:38:13 <DHess_US> So to build that 40MHz class-ab amplifier, probably have to use a cascode output stage now with a low voltage high Ft emitter follower driving the KSA1381 or KSA1142 as the cascode transistor.
03:38:39 <DHess_US> I've seen z-axis amplifiers build sort of that way.
03:38:43 <T3sl4> how about bootstrap supplies, so you can have say, low-Vce(sat) transistors in complementary emitter follower, driving the bases?
03:39:20 <DHess_US> Capacitviely bootstrap off of the output?
03:39:35 <T3sl4> possibly
03:39:55 <DHess_US> Or a floating supply to allow low frequency response.
03:39:58 <T3sl4> even if it requires a DC-DC converter, it could still turn out better
03:40:31 <T3sl4> capacitive boost with resistors to deliver DC might be okay, since you only need quiescent bias plus frequency-dependent charge
03:41:04 <DHess_US> So sad having to go to that kind of extreme because the 2N5160 is gone.
03:41:06 <T3sl4> i did that last month on a bootstrap gate driver, works fine, like a 100k pullup plus bootstrap diode
03:41:23 <T3sl4> yeah, and 2N3866 is only supported by Central anymore
03:42:01 <DHess_US> All of the good medium and high frequency medium power parts in the TO-39 are pretty much gone. The TO-126/TO-225 never really replaced them.
03:42:20 <DHess_US> And of course there aren't any stripline PNPs.
03:42:43 <T3sl4> there were a few CRT drivers in that size, but those mostly NPN as well for the cascode, and the followers something else
03:43:13 <DHess_US> Parallel 2N4403s for everybody!
03:43:28 <T3sl4> too bad you can't gain fT by paralleling
03:43:45 <DHess_US> Ah, but you can gain Ft by Ft doubling!
03:44:13 * T3sl4 clones and distributes DHess_US
03:44:46 <DHess_US> https://ai2-s2-public.s3.amazonaws.com/figures/2017-08-08/8aafbeaf833d448aa68d0984548ed0eab0cfa0cc/1-Figure1-1.png
03:45:17 <T3sl4> weird, it gave me a download
03:45:20 <DHess_US> Wow, that is the only relevant link.
03:45:33 <DHess_US> Yea, misconfigued server
03:46:07 <rust_collector> hmm, what is ft?
03:46:28 <T3sl4> there's a good section about it in, what was that; anyway, it discusses such topologies, and the real fT increase is modest, maybe 1.2 to 1.7x, and with rapidly diminishing returns if you continue
03:46:30 <DHess_US> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/ft-doubler/
03:46:44 <T3sl4> it's also balanced, so it's a pain to do much more with, if you aren't doing scopes
03:48:17 <DHess_US> rust_collector, it is the frequency where the current gain of a bipolar transistor becomes 1.
03:49:04 <rust_collector> oh. thanks
03:49:04 <DHess_US> It is a figure of merit for how fast a transistor is.
03:49:13 <DHess_US> roughly
03:49:34 <T3sl4> Staric and Margan, _Wideband Amplifiers, ss3.8
03:49:58 <T3sl4> which is available free from Staric's website,
03:50:21 <T3sl4> oh, from Margan's actually
03:50:32 <T3sl4> or maybe both, but this turns up first i guess http://www-f9.ijs.si/~margan/WBA3_4web/Wideband_Amplifiers_FPRL.pdf
03:53:30 <rust_collector> I was just looking for it in the datasheet, but because of the small print, I thought it said fr
03:53:45 <T3sl4> yeah, subscript t
03:54:46 <DHess_US> Ugg, too much math for a holiday.
03:55:01 <T3sl4> math \o/
04:05:37 <DHess_US> That might be the best reference I have seen on t-coils so far. Thanks for the link.
04:07:34 <T3sl4> it's quite good, and covers all the tricks of transistor-matching
04:08:06 <rust_collector> o god, it has both letters and numbers
04:08:22 <DHess_US> It reminded me of distributed amplifiers. What we need is a class-ab distributed amplifier
04:08:24 * T3sl4 collects Fe2O3
04:08:47 <DHess_US> Then we don't need the 2N4401s and 2N4403s in parallel.
04:09:18 <DHess_US> But we need three times as many transistors for cascodes and emitter followers.
04:09:19 <T3sl4> but it should be 2N7000s then, because BJTs suck in dist amps
04:09:34 <DHess_US> That's why we use three times as many per stage.
04:09:41 <T3sl4> though MOSFETs aren't much better, being pretty lossy capacitors up there anyway
04:09:45 <DHess_US> Oh, MOSFETs are even worse.
04:10:09 <T3sl4> unless you can manage to find some RF types masquerading as switching or jellybean types
04:10:46 <DHess_US> No p-channel or PNP RF types though
04:11:09 <T3sl4> hardly such a thing as "complementary MOS amp" anyway
04:11:15 <DHess_US> yup
04:11:32 <DHess_US> My new objective is to use as many 2N4401s and 2N4403s as possible.
04:12:21 <T3sl4> hm, i have 134 and 119 of them respectively
04:15:08 <DHess_US> Only?
04:15:33 <DHess_US> I've been thinking of ordering them 1000 instead of 100 at a time.
04:15:51 <T3sl4> my use has been down as i've been breadboarding less and SMTing more
04:49:03 <DHess_US> Next time someone asked me for a 50 MHz class-ab power amplifier, I'm going to suggest a distributed design just to see what comes back.
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04:53:23 <T3sl4> hah
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05:22:50 Nick: Halcyon_ is now known as Halcyon
05:22:53 Quit: Halcyon ([email protected]) Changing hosts
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05:22:59 <Halcyon> Shit it's cold this morning
05:24:30 <Ampera> hi Halcyon
05:24:33 <Halcyon> Hey Ampera
05:24:45 <Ampera> congrats on being tard wrangler for the computing section
05:24:51 <Halcyon> Ta
05:25:00 <Ampera> Ta?
05:25:26 <Halcyon> I've been getting BS mod reports throughout the night. Now I know how poor Dave and Simon feel. They are for the stupidest shit.
05:26:17 <Halcyon> One was because someone posted something in a 3 year old thread and that as somehow suss
05:26:21 <Ampera> if they need help I have SMF moderation experience, don't have a life, and have the sort of time to do stupid shit like ban 1500 bot accounts one at a time
05:26:23 <Ampera> (which I did once)
05:26:46 <Halcyon> Hehe yeh no worries. I'm meeting up with Dave and Geoff hopefully soon.
05:26:58 <Ampera> I even run my own SMF forum, which has no people on it
05:27:02 <Ampera> but I can at least use the software
05:28:06 <DHess_US> Frames on my glasses broke. Why can't they make metal frames which last more than 10 years?
05:32:14 <Halcyon> Anyway. Time to go to work :(
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05:39:10 <T3sl4> Ampera: Tantalum.
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05:45:59 <DHess_US> It's not everyday that I get to post a DSO pun.
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06:08:45 <Ampera> T3sl4, tantalyzing
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06:35:21 <Ampera> Idk who threw the IRCStats bot up here, but whoever did, can you somehow stop it doing that
06:49:52 <DHess_US> I for one welcome our IRC bot overlords.
06:51:41 <Lartza> It's not even the real ircstats?
06:52:49 Quit: Lartza ([email protected]) Changing hosts
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06:53:34 <Lartza> And it's running mIRC lol
06:53:41 <Lartza> So maybe a real user
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12:12:55 <EEVBlog1> New EEVBlog Tweet: 1.5hrs of raw footage. Ok, that's a lot, even for me. https://t.co/BdF9h8AHsU
12:21:20 Mode: (by Ampera) +b *!*@irc-stats.org
12:21:28 Kick: IRCStats was kicked by Ampera (Ampera)
12:23:09 * T3sl4 slaps Ampera around with a wet noodlebot
12:23:24 * Ampera slaps T3sl4 across the face, like the bitch he is
12:23:33 <T3sl4> :(
12:23:45 * Ampera hugs T3sl4 across the body, like the bitch he is
12:23:53 <T3sl4> :(
12:24:16 * T3sl4 fucks Ampera right in the pussy, like the bitch he is
12:24:28 <Ampera> >pussy >he
12:24:30 <Ampera> pick one
12:24:31 <Ampera> feggit
12:24:46 <T3sl4> the pronoun is ambiguous tho
12:25:41 <Ampera> It's [Insert Current Year], you're not allowed to use arbitrary gender pronoun ambiguity, even if it is gramatically correct and has been for centuries. That's gonna get you gulaged
12:26:33 <DHess_US> Did you just assume T3sl4's existance?
12:26:57 <T3sl4> in fact, since i'm the only that's been called a bitch in the conversation so far, associating that with "he" implies i'm referring to myself
12:27:27 <DHess_US> Did you just assume your own existance?
12:27:32 <T3sl4> DHess_US: I bitch, therefore I am
12:27:42 <T3sl4> also, whose existence said that?
12:27:48 * Ampera assumes the party submission position
12:27:51 <DHess_US> INSULT
12:27:57 <Ampera> DEUS VULT
12:28:08 <T3sl4> this was a triumph
12:28:09 <DHess_US> COUNTER DEUS VULT
12:28:26 * Ampera takes T3sl4's cake
12:28:30 <T3sl4> I'm making a counter, Deus Vult
12:28:42 <T3sl4> It's hard to overstate your heresey
12:28:45 <Ampera> WE SHALL TAKE BACK THE HOLY LAND
12:28:53 <Ampera> REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
12:29:00 <DHess_US> RETORT
12:29:01 <T3sl4> pfft, that doesn't scan
12:29:20 * T3sl4 encloses DHess_US in a nearly-closed vessel and applies heat
12:29:25 <DHess_US> NOTATION THAT YOU CREATE A VACUUM
12:31:16 <DHess_US> Got to go make snack for Chernobyl so cutting this short. http://www.bash.org/?23396
12:32:04 <DHess_US> Oh, and tested a Kill-O-Watt. They read positive power when connected backwards.
12:32:06 <T3sl4> hah
14:53:31 <steve30> ooh, my naughty parcel is out for delivery today :p
14:55:31 * T3sl4 gives steve30 a nougaty parcel
14:55:47 <steve30> mmm
14:55:51 * Ampera eats T3sl4's nougat
14:56:05 * T3sl4 slaps Ampera
14:56:15 * Ampera slaps T3sl4
14:57:05 <T3sl4> bitch
14:58:17 <Ampera> <3
14:58:28 * T3sl4 sips a coffee
14:58:53 <steve30> ooh, coffee
14:59:09 * steve30 pounces onto T3sl4's lap
14:59:27 * T3sl4 gives steve30 a mug
15:00:22 <steve30> :p
15:01:04 <T3sl4> no offense but i don't need stevehairs in my mug :P
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16:10:49 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o T3sl4
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16:56:29 <AmpOS2_> testing
16:57:58 <AmpOS2_> THoly
16:58:12 <AmpOS2_> Holy
16:58:20 <Ampera> lol
16:58:56 <AmpOS2_> Holy shit this was fucking difficult.
16:59:16 <AmpOS2_> IRC via a telnet client running ons OS/2
17:00:31 <AmpOS2_> /me prods Halcyon and T3sl4co1l
17:00:51 <AmpOS2_> Cloes Enough
17:02:22 <AmpOS2_> Ampera
17:02:45 Quit: AmpOS2_ ([email protected]) Client exited
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17:34:22 * steve30 meows at T3sl4
17:34:35 * T3sl4 scritches the steve30
17:34:59 * steve30 purrs
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18:33:07 <Halcyon> Hello :)
18:33:36 * Halcyon pokes Ampera
18:33:43 <Ampera> hi Halcyon
18:33:55 <Halcyon> How are you?
18:33:59 <Ampera> awake
18:34:08 <Halcyon> Ampera time
18:34:13 <Halcyon> Dammit :P
18:34:15 <Ampera> 4:41
18:34:25 <Halcyon> Yeh that's a shit time to be awake
18:34:35 <Ampera> pussy
18:34:44 <Halcyon> I'm not a morning person
18:35:05 <Halcyon> Also, I forgot to put product in my hair this morning so I was all floofed all day >:(
18:35:21 <Ampera> I rarely even put soap in my hair
18:35:31 <Halcyon> You mean shampoo ?
18:35:32 <Halcyon> :P
18:35:41 <Ampera> what's shampoo
18:35:48 <Halcyon> Liquid soap for hair
18:35:55 <Ampera> they have liquid soap?
18:36:03 <Halcyon> *smirk*
18:36:09 <Ampera> no I'm dead serious
18:36:16 <Ampera> I didn't even know that soap came in a liquid
18:36:19 <Halcyon> No, you'll bullshitting me
18:36:22 <Halcyon> *you're
18:36:26 <Halcyon> I know how you like to stir
18:36:26 <Ampera> dead fucking serious
18:36:46 <Ampera> man, that'll make mashing a bar of soap into my hair pretty fucking stupid
18:36:49 <Halcyon> What do you think liquid hand wash or dishwashing liquid is?
18:37:07 <Ampera> hand wash?
18:37:17 <Ampera> and for dishwashing we either use a powder for the dishwasher, or a bar of soap
18:37:21 <Halcyon> Like what you commonly find in public bathrooms and such
18:37:32 <Halcyon> I mean I use dishwashing powder too
18:37:44 <Halcyon> But my handsoap comes in pumpy pack things
18:37:45 <Ampera> I find bars of soap in public bathrooms
18:37:52 <Halcyon> Oh really? That's super odd
18:37:53 <Ampera> I've never heard of such a thing
18:37:55 <Halcyon> And kinda gross
18:38:07 <Ampera> it's soap, what's gonna happen to it?
18:38:11 <Ampera> get dirty?
18:38:17 <Ampera> that's like water bursting into flames
18:38:26 <Halcyon> Soap doesn't kill bacteria
18:38:43 <Ampera> so?
18:39:00 <Halcyon> I would hate to use a bar of soap that strangers have touched
18:39:10 <Halcyon> I barely like touching door handles or railing in public
18:39:21 <Ampera> m9 I fucking lick doorknobs in public
18:39:31 <Halcyon> I bet you lick windows too ;-)
18:39:35 <Ampera> fuck windows
18:39:39 <Ampera> I only lick linux
18:39:44 <Ampera> REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
18:39:47 <Halcyon> You missed my joke
18:39:51 <Halcyon> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=window+licker
18:40:11 <Ampera> I've never been on a schoolbus in my life
18:40:27 <Halcyon> You don't have to be to be called a window licker
18:40:34 <Halcyon> It's a another term for retard
18:41:01 <Ampera> oh I know all about th at
18:41:08 <Ampera> my mom calls me that all the time
18:41:12 <Ampera> she says it makes me special
18:42:40 <Halcyon> Window licker special?
18:43:02 <Halcyon> Back shortly, need to moisturise
18:43:19 <Halcyon> or lotion as you call it there
18:48:58 <Ampera> moisturizing is what lotion does
18:49:02 <Ampera> lotion is not a verb
18:49:06 <Ampera> lotion is an item
18:51:05 <T3sl4> eh go lick a lotion bottle
18:53:34 <Ampera> T3sl4, how about you lick your own pussy
18:53:49 <T3sl4> remove my lower rib first
18:54:01 * Ampera removes T3sl4's lower rib
18:54:06 * T3sl4 complies
18:59:31 <EEVBlog1> New EEVBlog Tweet: Latest video comes in at just under 1 hour. A deep dive into FPGA's and PCB layout, power planes, and much more.
19:03:32 <EEVBlog1> New EEVBlog Tweet: PCB Dick'n'Balls #Achievementunlocked https://t.co/lPndnmhJFF
19:46:12 * steve30 meows at Halcyon
19:59:35 <K> hello
20:00:43 <Stiff> hello
20:01:02 <K> yes.
20:01:16 <Stiff> *echo*
20:01:22 <steve30> hello
20:27:41 <steve30> I wonder if Halcyon is nicely moisturised now.
20:32:42 <Stiff> shiney
20:53:02 <steve30> i think i'll have another coffee
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