#eevblog - 2019-05-24 - AustNet Archive Project

// #eevblog — 2019-05-24

1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016
Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31
« 2019-05-23 2019-05-25 »
19:29 Join: oov ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
20:53 <oov> do I understand correctly that a pink antistatic bag should not build a charge while being rubbed against the shirt?
22:19 <oov> I have bought some bubble wrap that was advertised as antistatic, but I have a feeling it has no such property, it is only a pink bubble wrap
22:42 <T3sl4> there's different kinds of antistatic, i forget which
23:04 <T3sl4> blue, pink, metallized and foil are different things
30:56 <oov> from what I understand neither one should build a charge
35:11 <oov> if wiki does not lie, it looks like I am correct: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antistatic_bag
36:47 <oov> "Dissipative antistatic bags, as the name suggests, are made of standard polyethylene with a static dissipative coating or layer on the plastic. This prevents buildup of a static charge on the surface of the bag"
37:24 <T3sl4> it's high resistance, so it's a matter of time constant
37:48 <T3sl4> like having a humid day, it doesn't prohibit some static, but it tends towards zero over a reasonable time frame
41:25 <oov> well, how long is long enough to dissipate a charge? 1 second, 1 minute, 10 minutes, 1 h?
47:42 <oov> I just did a simple test, I have rubbed a plain bubble wrap bag against a shirt and tested if it attracts hairs - and it did, after about 1 minute there was very little effect left
50:44 <oov> I have repeated the same test with a supposedly pink antistatic bubble wrap - result was the same
51:41 <oov> then I have testes a true antistatic bag and there was absolutely no effect right after I rubbed it against the shirt
52:26 <oov> is it a conclusive result that pink bubble wrap I have purchased is not a real thing?
52:48 <oov> I am not sure if I should fill a complain or not
01:16 Join: Bluenote ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
06:04 Join: AndrevS ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
13:54 <DHess_US> You could still charge the surface of the bag. But the surface will maintain the same charge over the entire surface.
36:15 <oov> DHess_US: are you saying that a true antistatic bag can be charged and it can maintain that charge over the considerable period of time?
38:29 <DHess_US> Yes, just like a metal sphere on an insulated stand.
39:14 <DHess_US> But when the bag is in contact with other conductors like other bags and the drawer or enclosure or whatever, the charge will equialize.
39:24 <DHess_US> equalize
40:04 <DHess_US> If the bag was truely insulating on the surface, that wouldn't happen. This is actually a real problem in high impedance circuits when a super insulating substrate like Teflon is used.
40:49 <DHess_US> You end up having to cover the unused portions of the Teflon substrate with a conductor to prevent surface charge from accumulating.
41:03 <DHess_US> Teflon standoffs are much easier to use.
42:00 <DHess_US> Pease wrote an article about it.
44:07 <DHess_US> https://www.electronicdesign.com/test-amp-measurement/whats-all-teflon-stuff-anyhow
47:01 <DHess_US> That article points to the real problem. It is the insulating bags rubbing against each other.
23:33 <DHess_US> https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pPS1o_k3sK4/XOW9weTTqdI/AAAAAAAAil0/6lekPdkRsWcL2V3LcVNiEi6LJ4eTk4nAACLcBGAs/s1600/5E795C6B-D721-4EB4-9C2A-BECA25E6AF77.jpeg
22:30 <oov> DHess_US: that was an interesting article to read, however, I am not sure if Teflon should be compared to specialized antistatic bag, which was purposely built to not store a charge
22:43 <oov> the wiki article I quoted says: "This bridge to ground is achieved with the inclusion of a tallow amine on the bags surface which attracts moisture that can conduct the charge to another surface, or to the atmosphere itself.[4] In this sense, this type is truly 'antistatic' in that it hinders the formation of static charges."
23:35 <oov> so, the charge should be conducted to the atmosphere
26:33 Join: Guest|67335 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
27:49 Quit: Guest|67335 ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
41:50 <coppice_> T3sl4: most anti-static bags do not avoid charge build up through their surface resistance, which is extremely high, but by having a surface which doesn't support charge pooling.
43:44 <coppice_> i.e. they are static dissipative
52:40 Quit: AndrevS ([email protected]) Connection closed
16:31 <DHess_US> oov, the point was untreated Teflon is a problem.
16:47 <DHess_US> Just like untreated plastic for a bag.
17:54 <DHess_US> That article describes various ways to treat the Teflon to prevent the problem which was use something conductive in its place.
32:55 Quit: Bluenote ([email protected]) Quit: Leaving
55:59 <Ampera> hullo
56:15 <T3sl4> o/
56:37 <T3sl4> coppice_: charge pooling? seems to be a financial subject
56:37 <Ampera> how do T3sl4
56:45 <T3sl4> it do's
56:57 * T3sl4 serves Ampera a slice of blood and tongue sausage
57:17 <Ampera> still experimenting with Xpra's encoding options.
58:03 <Ampera> Motion PNG/JPEG just took too much bandwidth, h.264 ate shit immediately, and VP9 fucked with the colours such that the saturation kept flashing higher and lower
58:12 <Ampera> now I'm using WebP which seems to be working better
58:49 <Ampera> I wonder if they sell dedicated video codec hardware that's not in a GPU
58:56 Join: Bluenote ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
03:49 <T3sl4> can always write your own in FPGA :P
04:36 <T3sl4> but good luck getting that to work, even moreso than codecs in linux :P
05:13 <Ampera> I'd want it for my server so it can do realtime encoding, although I'm not using Linux
05:27 <Ampera> which brings an interesting question, does BSD support VA-API or VDPAU?
30:16 <DHess_US> <Ampera> I wonder if they sell dedicated video codec hardware that's not in a GPU
30:25 <DHess_US> Yes, they include it inside of a CPU.
30:45 <Ampera> DHess_US, by dedicated I mean on a card
31:06 <DHess_US> They used to but now they tend to jsut be a CPU on a card.
31:20 <DHess_US> Someone probably still does for professional use.
31:33 <DHess_US> err, GPU on a card.
32:19 <Ampera> I mean they stick that hardware on even the cheapest of modern CPU/GPUs, so I'd wonder if there's a card that can just do that
32:29 <DHess_US> Professional broadcasters used to have cards or rack enclosures with dedicated encoders and I'm sure that is still done.
32:31 <Ampera> but the use of that might be too niche to justify a dedicated device.
33:03 <DHess_US> That would be really difficult to justify compared to including encoding hardware on a CPU because of integration issues.
33:31 <DHess_US> Like I said, I'm sure it is still done for professional or industrial applications.
33:49 <Ampera> as far as I know, my X5650 has no dedicated hardware for that
34:05 <Ampera> My 9800GT /might/, but not NVENC/NVDEC
34:29 <DHess_US> I don't think those are actual dedicated hardware but instead are just a GPU program.
34:39 <DHess_US> Not that there is anythign wrong with that.
34:52 <Ampera> NVENC/NVDEC /is/ dedicated
35:05 <Ampera> whereas what my 9800GT might be capable of is something run on the GPU
35:14 <DHess_US> CPU accelleration tends to be more along the lines of dedciated hardware for specific functions with a software wrapper.
35:33 <Ampera> I'd be looking for an ASIC solution though
35:53 <DHess_US> The GPU dues say it is dedicated. But as far as I know, that block could just be implemented in software.
35:54 <Ampera> like what is put on GPUs, but just without the GPU
36:11 <Ampera> No, it's not, modern GeForce cards have a codec ASIC onboard
36:14 <DHess_US> There are SOC solutions for that so there are ASICs.
36:21 <DHess_US> So nVidia says.
36:36 <DHess_US> Show me a die shot with that area outlined and a block diagram.
37:14 <Ampera> ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
39:40 <Ampera> Anyways, just a passing idea
39:53 <Ampera> I'm trying to understand what might be the bottleneck for Xpra, as it's not performing as well as I imagine it should do
40:22 <Ampera> that being said, it doesn't seem to be particularly maxing either the encoding nor decoding CPUs
41:07 <DHess_US> That's why you want hardware accellerated video compression?
41:41 <DHess_US> Usually the solution would be an older standard with less compression at a higher bit rate but lower latency.
41:56 <DHess_US> Or lossless compression.
42:14 <Ampera> That's not why I want it, that's just what made me think about that sort of idea
42:30 <DHess_US> Video compression intended for broadcast and fixed media is not normally suitable for real time applicaitons.
42:39 <Ampera> as I'm exploring more distributed computing options (thus why I'm using Xpra), and video decoding might be something neat to offload
43:07 <Ampera> That's the strange thing though, Motion PNG/JPEG, for whatever reason have a really low update/frame rate
43:12 <DHess_US> I've had problems moving video and audio over Windows RDP but ther eisn't much I can do about it.
43:20 <DHess_US> It *should* work but doesn't.
43:41 <Ampera> Like I have it set to motion PNG right now, and the text I type updates very jitterily.
43:49 <Ampera> I can't tell if it's low refresh rate, or if it's high latency
44:33 <Ampera> Getting some network bandwidth monitoring applications out
44:53 <DHess_US> A big factor is how the display is updated. Instead of sending stateless full frames, it is much much faster to either send only the changes or to capture the display list and send that.
45:15 <Ampera> and the reported rate for Xpra (and the X forwarding I'm doing ontop of it for my system monitor) is very low.
45:34 <DHess_US> I'm not sure what VNC does now but when I originally used it, only full frame updates were supported making it slow compared to Widnows RDP.
45:55 <Ampera> I'm not using VNC
45:59 <Ampera> I'm using Xpra
46:04 <Ampera> http://i.prntscr.com/icT0dOylT8WozWPPxnn3-Q.png
46:05 <DHess_US> I thought X did the display list option.
46:13 <Ampera> wha?
46:34 <Ampera> Anyways, this is a screenshot of system loads when stressing it (rapidly scrolling up and down chat log) on motion PNG
46:58 <Ampera> Left is Xpra server right is Xpra client
47:09 <DHess_US> Display list means interpretting the display API on the remote system.
47:17 <DHess_US> In the old says, we would have called that a display list.
47:31 <Ampera> Interpreting the display API?
48:00 <Ampera> I'm actually not sure how Xpra works, as I believe it's bitmap based, but it has heavy X integration
48:08 <DHess_US> Somewhere the application interfaces to the display through an API. So instead of interpretting the screen, capture the API an duplicate that on the remote system.
49:30 <Ampera> Ah, I set it to motion PNG, and then set it to low latency, and now it updates well
50:15 <Ampera> DHess_US, the server or the client interfaces to the display? While Xpra /technically/ interfaces with a display on the server side, it's actually a dummy framebuffer
50:56 <Ampera> Yeah so Xpra is a custom protocol, but designed to specifically tunnel X applications
51:43 <Ampera> So an X application runs under an X screen on the server, Xpra captures compresses and sends that data, and it appears on the client system's X server like a tunneled X program
52:16 <DHess_US> The description on Wikipedia suggests that it captures the application interface to the screen.
52:46 <Ampera> Basically, but it's not like VNC nor traditional X forwarding
53:20 <Ampera> in that it can forward individual programs, instead of an entire screen, and controls act largely the same on the client system
31:51 <DHess_US> Hmm, 40 proof cough syrup.
32:18 * Ampera pours everclear in DHess_US's cough syrup
32:46 <DHess_US> I'd do that if I had some.
33:44 <Ampera> what, to make it taste of even stronger prickly ass than it already does?
33:48 <DHess_US> I settled for this which is what I had available. https://cuervo.com/products/jose-cuervo-tradicional-reposado/
34:20 <Ampera> "are you of legal drinking age"
34:22 <DHess_US> No, alcohol is a cough supressant which is why it is included in better cough syrups.
34:26 <Ampera> so I need to be 21 to even look at a picture?
34:38 <DHess_US> Only if you are going to drink it over the internet.
35:13 <DHess_US> But I figure if 1.4% alcohol in my cough syrup is good, then 20% alcohol is better.
35:54 <DHess_US> 15 times better.
36:43 <Ampera> nyquil is 10% ABV
37:01 <DHess_US> Yea, but I just have a cough now and Nyquil sucks since they removed the meth from it.
37:12 <Ampera> but if you're just gonna get hammered, why even bother with cough syrup
37:14 <DHess_US> I used up the last of my good Nyquil two weeks ago.
37:21 <coppice_> Was the prototype for nyquil a single malt?
37:28 <DHess_US> Because I'm treating an actual cough.
37:29 <Ampera> drink until you want to fuck your mirror
38:04 <DHess_US> Two weeks ago I came down with the flu. That turned into broncitis as usual. That turned into pneumonia as usual. Now I just have a cough.
38:42 <DHess_US> The traditional treatment if you didn't have any medicin was orange juice and vodka for a cough.
38:52 <DHess_US> i.e. a screwdriver
39:06 <DHess_US> Or whatever that tomato and alcohol drink is.
39:11 <DHess_US> Bloody Mary?
39:26 <Ampera> I'm not a huge fan of alcohol, but I do want to try gin and tonic one of these days
39:35 <DHess_US> But I'm too lazy to go get some orange juice.
39:59 <DHess_US> I like good Tequila and that is about it. But this is just medicinal. That is my story and I'm sticking to it.
40:34 <DHess_US> Gin was just a way to make tonic (quinine to treat malaria) tolerable.
41:42 <DHess_US> Quinine tastes pretty foul and it must be really foul for gin to make it better.
42:02 <Ampera> yes I know
42:23 <Ampera> I've had tonic water before, and even though there was only minor quantities of quninine in it, it tasted like grapefruit juice
42:29 <DHess_US> Of course the tonic water you can buy only has 1/10th of the amount of quinine which would be required for treatment.
43:02 <DHess_US> The real tonic water which was originally used with gin was an order of magnitude or more concetrated.
44:30 <DHess_US> Lol, AvE didn't know this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfjSm_ieRkE
44:39 <DHess_US> Divide the CFM by the pressure in atmospheres.
33:59 Quit: oov ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
56:02 <Halcyon_> Hey T3sl4, you around?
56:40 * Halcyon_ pokes Ampera
56:51 Nick: Halcyon_ is now known as Halcyon
56:54 Quit: Halcyon ([email protected]) Changing hosts
56:55 Join: Halcyon ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
58:16 * steve30 pokes Halcyon with a Visa card
58:23 <Halcyon> Pointy
58:26 <Halcyon> How you going Steve?
58:57 <steve30> OK thanks, but my attempt at ordering 'adult' items just now failed as my visa debit card wouldn't work.
58:58 <Halcyon> Oh how much do you know about LiPo batteries?
59:04 <Halcyon> Oh no :(
59:20 <steve30> I don't know much about LiPo
59:54 <coppice_> steve30: a debit card doesn't prove you are over 18
00:52 <steve30> They accepted it about 5 years ago
01:26 <Halcyon> Yeh that's weird. I've never had issues with Visa Debt on those sites
01:35 <Halcyon> Not that I buy a lot of adult stuff, but you know
01:45 <steve30> I'll clarify that this was not porn or anything
01:49 <coppice_> That may have been an error, where they didn't distinguish a Visa Debit from a Visa card. Nobody seem to accept a Debit card now
02:51 <Halcyon> I can understand companies not accepting a normal bank debit card, but Visa Debit should be fairly universal, like a credit card
03:14 <steve30> they are pretty much ubiquitous nowadays.
03:15 <coppice_> You don't have to be 18 to hold a Visa Credit card, but you can only hold a secondary card, and the primary must be someone over 18, so I guess they think that's OK
03:43 <coppice_> Halcyon: its nothing to do with accepting the card. Its a matter of proving you are over 18
04:11 <Halcyon> As far as I know, the payment method was never a proof of age?
04:15 <T3sl4> Halcyon: you seem to have missed that steve30 was prepositioning you for adult activities (or, toys at least)
04:23 <Halcyon> Ooooh ;-)
04:27 <Halcyon> Steve needs a good spank
05:16 <coppice_> Halcyon: lots of places wanting age verification accept a visa credit card as adequate evidence
05:22 * T3sl4 scritches steve30 instead
05:53 <Halcyon> OK, that's new to me. I've never seen that before
05:59 <Halcyon> T3sl4: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/replacing-a-small-lipo-pack-in-a-camera-wiring-question/new/#new
06:04 <Halcyon> This is what I was going to ask
06:46 <T3sl4> is it a pack as in a battery as in multiple cells? or is it just one cell?
07:12 <Halcyon> It's a pack. Typical foil block of Lithiumy goodness
07:17 <coppice_> The UK cellular operators want a UK issued Visa credit card to unblock porn sites
07:19 <T3sl4> ...
07:47 <coppice_> well, visa or master<fill in the blank>card
07:57 <Halcyon> https://uk.farnell.com/bak/lp-402025-is-3/battery-lithium-pol-3-7v-165-mah/dp/2077885
08:00 <Halcyon> That's the replacement
08:02 <T3sl4> wait what is...
08:09 <T3sl4> oh wtf, you used the non-https link
08:14 <Halcyon> It's the closet I could find in terms of capacity, same voltage
08:15 * T3sl4 slaps Halcyon with a ring of keys
08:20 <Halcyon> Sorry :P
08:22 <steve30> Halcyon, yeah, i'd just connect it as is and leave out the T
09:20 <Halcyon> Yeh I thought that would be OK Steve, I just wanted to check
28:06 Topic Is: Official IRC channel of the EEVBlog - www.eevblog.com
28:06 Set By: (lego.jp.austnet.org) on: Sun Mar 17 01:18:37 2019
28:06 <steve30> coppice_, this particular retailer doesn't seem to take any issues with Visa Debit. I see they even take Visa Electron.
28:06 <steve30> https://www.lovehoney.co.uk/help/how-to-pay/
52:19 <DHess_US> 3.7 volts means it is one cell or a bunch of cells in parallel.
54:22 <DHess_US> For most portable applications, the power demands are not enough to make using cells in series an advantage. Laptops might be different but I don't know.
55:25 <DHess_US> Lower voltages mean higher I squared R losses.
59:23 <Ampera> Hi Halcyon
59:25 <Ampera> how do?
00:04 <steve30> I'm going to go out for a walk
01:18 <Ampera> have fun steve30
02:44 <Halcyon> Not too bad, yourself?
02:57 <Ampera> Halcyon, good. I've been doing interesting things with Xpra
03:10 <Halcyon> What's Xpra?
03:33 <Ampera> It's a remote access protocol and client/server system that allows the seamless and rootless remote access of X programs.
03:38 <Ampera> I'm using it to talk to you right now.
04:11 <Halcyon> OK
04:19 <Ampera> The basic setup I have is my IRC client, HexChat, is running on my FreeBSD server in an Xpra instance, and, as if it were running on my Linux desktop, Xpra will forward the program's visuals and controls
04:36 <Ampera> It's like X forwarding, but with tons of more features.
04:44 <Halcyon> I see
05:32 <Ampera> actually, I'm curious about something
05:41 <Halcyon> Mmm ?
06:11 Join: Ampera_ ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
06:11 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o Ampera_
06:52 <Ampera> Halcyon, can you CTCP VERSION me?
07:59 <Halcyon> Nil response it seems
08:03 <Ampera> huh
08:16 Quit: Ampera ([email protected]) Changing hosts
08:16 Join: Ampera ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
08:16 Mode: (by lego.jp.austnet.org) +o Ampera
08:33 <Halcyon> It could be my firewall actually
08:52 <Ampera> no, CTCP isn't actually client to client
08:53 <Ampera> try again
08:56 Part: Ampera_ ([email protected]) from #EEVblog (Leaving)
09:12 <Halcyon> Isn't that what CTCP is?
09:16 <Halcyon> Client to client protocol
09:21 <Ampera> yeah it sounds like it
09:31 <Ampera> but the message goes over the IRC server, not p2p
09:43 <Halcyon> Worked that time
09:49 <Halcyon> -Ampera- VERSION HexChat 2.14.2 / FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE via ZNC 1.7.3 - https://znc.in
09:49 <Halcyon> -Ampera- VERSION WeeChat 2.4 (May 17 2019 00:24:21) via ZNC 1.7.3 - https://znc.in
09:58 <Ampera> Yeah there you go, you can see HexChat FreeBSD
10:14 <Ampera> The issue was that austnet requires me to be authenticated to services to send a CTCP message
10:42 <Halcyon> Ah
11:09 * Ampera leers at damian 
11:15 <Halcyon> I think it's good
11:22 <Halcyon> Prevents abuse of CTCP
11:47 <Ampera> http://i.prntscr.com/n-ei_8gRTmaKudv43QdpIQ.png
12:12 <Ampera> but there it is on Linux, running like any other program
12:48 <Ampera> (the system monitors are for my server and desktop, I wanted to measure how much network and CPU load this took)
13:14 <Ampera> One worrying thing is that my server is using 6.6GiB of memory, which is 1.6GiB more than it used to have
14:12 <Halcyon> Why is that a worry?
14:13 <Ampera> It's really neat, and surprisingly, the bandwidth used is really low.
14:53 <Ampera> because of two reasons. I don't know how close I was to my previous limit, or I was never close to my previous limit, and that used memory is coming from somewhere unreasonable
15:08 <Halcyon> It was likely paging before as well
15:17 <Halcyon> Now you have extra RAM, less reliance on the page file
15:23 <Ampera> the term is swap
15:27 <Ampera> and no, not really
15:52 <Halcyon> Swap / Page is the same thing
16:07 <Ampera> except one is a unix term and one is an NT term
16:16 <Halcyon> Yes, but both mean the same thing
16:27 <Ampera> not only that, swap isn't a file, it's a partition
16:33 <Halcyon> I'm a Windows guy traditionally so that's the term I use
16:35 <Ampera> whereas on NT, the pagefile is a file
17:06 <Halcyon> Yup, fully aware of that
17:27 <Ampera> looking at records, it did seem like it might have hit swap a little bit, so this isn't that worrying I guess
17:52 <Ampera> One of the big advantages, however, of using Xpra, is that I can simultaneously access the same program on multiple computers
18:11 <Ampera> and disconnect from the server without closing or interrupting my program's state
18:54 <Ampera> So when I go to Connecticut, I can have my hexchat, but without having to close it and loose backlog
19:08 <Ampera> all data is tunneled securely over SSH
19:59 <DHess_US> <Ampera> because of two reasons. I don't know how close I was to my previous limit, or I was never close to my previous limit, and that used memory is coming from somewhere unreasonable
20:02 <DHess_US> mmap?
20:22 <Ampera> DHess_US, mmap?
20:52 <DHess_US> Could the extra memory shown actually be virtual memory allocated by mmap?
21:06 <Ampera> what extra memory
21:09 <DHess_US> If so, that isn't real memory. It is just files mapped into virtual memory.
21:21 <Ampera> no there is no extra memory, and that's not the problem
21:29 <Ampera> it's just that I'm using more memory than I used to have
21:52 <DHess_US> No, what I'm saying is that files mapped into virtual memory for access might show up as used memory when they really are not.
22:03 <Ampera> which is slightly worrying because that means either something right now is chewing memory, or I was smashing the swap file before
22:58 <Ampera> Well what is shown is allocated memory, so there's stuff that isn't /really/ used, but screenshots of my system monitor have shown I was indeed hitting swap
23:18 <Ampera> not sure what the swap policy is on my server or BSD, but if it had spare, just otherwise allocated memory, I'm not sure if it would hit swap
23:38 <DHess_US> Yea, I don't know if virtual memory allocated to mmap counts as "allocated" memory. I'm suggesting that it might.
24:34 <Ampera> alright I see what you're getting at
24:39 <DHess_US> mmap is a really good idea but it is usually implemented very poorly and it was a major reason to go to 64 bit processors.
25:11 <Ampera> PAE
25:15 <DHess_US> Linux and I assume BSD are among the few systems that get mmap correct.
25:42 <Ampera> I mean not that PAE was more of a sideways stopgap, but it's at hing
25:43 <Ampera> *thing
26:00 <DHess_US> Yes, PAE helped but it comes down to you really need a *lot* more virtual memory address space than physical and mapped address space.
27:33 <Ampera> as for if mmap counts towards used memory, I don't think it would. That being said I believe some of that number of used memory /could/ be simply allocated memory, and not actually in use
28:21 <DHess_US> mmap can do weird things since usually the entire file is not touched.
28:25 <Ampera> I mean wouldn't mmap files even be outside of the normal physical memory address space?
28:37 <DHess_US> So it might only count pages mapped to mmap that have actually been accessed.
28:37 <Ampera> like swap is
29:01 <DHess_US> mmap address space is part of the virtual address space.
29:49 <Ampera> yeah this is the part of BSD/Linux I don't really deal with, so I have no clue what I'm saying
29:52 <DHess_US> virtual address space also includes multiple copies of the physical address space because access from different sources may have different permissions.
30:18 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: The EEVblog forum is now secure https only: https://t.co/cHgzcyQTAN
30:31 <DHess_US> In my experience it is completely normal to have low levels of page file access even when free physical memory exists.
30:44 <Ampera> thank you EEVBlog
30:59 <Ampera> so is my forum
31:04 <Ampera> (ish)
31:18 <DHess_US> The only exception is if the swap file is completely disabled which is done on some systems.
31:47 <DHess_US> Like if you had an embedded system which uses fixed media or Flash to boot from.
32:18 <DHess_US> I think my FreeBSD router has swap disabled.
32:31 <DHess_US> No need to burn out the CF card.
32:45 <Ampera> uhh, I don't know if my FreeBSD router has swap enabled
32:48 <Ampera> but it's on a hard drive
33:06 <Ampera> 4.6GB of SWAP
33:13 <Ampera> which is a key indicator that I'm the one who installed it
33:26 <DHess_US> Mine thinks it is on a hard drive (compact flash uses the ATA/IDE interface) but I think by default my installation has swap disabled anyway.
33:42 <Ampera> I use pfsense, because pf's documentation is horrific
33:54 <DHess_US> I'm still using m0n0wall.
34:09 <DHess_US> Last time I updated it, pfsense still didn't support IPv6
34:24 <Ampera> My router actually does more than just route, it also operates as a reverse proxy dealing with HTTP(S) requests for either my or my dad's website
34:39 <DHess_US> I used to use mine for that.
34:40 <Ampera> pfSense supports IPv6, unfortunately I don't
34:52 <Ampera> because I have no clue how IPv6 works, nor how to implement it, and I've yet to try to learn
34:56 <DHess_US> It didn't when last I used it so I went back to m0n0wall which did.
35:16 <DHess_US> Then AT&T blocked IPv6 on their network.
35:31 <DHess_US> They still block IPv6 tunneling.
35:36 <Ampera> I don't have a whole lot of reason to use IPv6, because even though my ISP does provide a dual stack, I don't really have to
36:02 <DHess_US> I'm on Charter now which does dual stack and my ancient m0n0wall install just used it so no problem.
36:24 <Ampera> What part of the land of the freak do you live in?
36:32 <Ampera> I'm in Yankee land
37:08 <Ampera> I have 940/880 FttP from Bell Atlantic
37:44 * Ampera tickles Halcyon 
37:46 <Ampera> you still awake m9?
38:42 <Halcyon> Yup
38:49 <Halcyon> What's up?
38:50 <Ampera> good girl
38:59 <Ampera> I'm bored so I'm annoying people
39:05 <Halcyon> Fair enough :)
39:44 <Ampera> I should go try to figure out how to set up virtualization on FreeBSD, but I don't want to deal with an even worse clusterfuck than what it is on Linux
39:48 <Ampera> I mean I do, but also don't
39:56 <DHess_US> Pinging ipv6.l.google.com [2607:f8b0:4009:806::200e] with 32 bytes of data:
39:56 <DHess_US> Reply from 2607:f8b0:4009:806::200e: time=23ms
39:56 <DHess_US> Reply from 2607:f8b0:4009:806::200e: time=22ms
39:56 <DHess_US> Reply from 2607:f8b0:4009:806::200e: time=26ms
39:56 <DHess_US> Reply from 2607:f8b0:4009:806::200e: time=24ms
40:24 <Ampera> you spilled your terminal's contents all over our nice clean channel
40:45 <Halcyon> :P
40:57 <DHess_US> I'm about 30 minutes west of St. Louis. This is AT&T and Charter/Spectrum land.
41:00 <Halcyon> I started to play with IPv6, my ISP supports it natively now
41:07 <Halcyon> It's a steep learning curve
41:21 <Ampera> I'll do it when I've run out of broken things and want to create new broken things to fix
41:22 <DHess_US> I've been using, or trying to use until AT&T blocked it, IPv6 for 10+ years.
41:44 <Halcyon> Why would ATT block it?
41:52 <Halcyon> It seems counter intuitive
42:01 <DHess_US> Because they then required customers to pay extra to get it.
42:10 <DHess_US> You have to pay extra to unblock it.
42:59 <Ampera> same thing with verizon for email ports
43:08 <Ampera> want to run an email server? pay for a business subscription
43:42 <DHess_US> First they blocked all IPv6 tunneling traffic at their border. So I switched to using the AT&T internal tunnel proxy. Then they blocked all tunnel traffic at every AT&T modem.
44:23 <DHess_US> I complained to the FCC as a network neutrality violation and the FCC said, "AT&T says they dont' block it. Case closed."
44:35 <DHess_US> This was *after* AT&T offered to unblock it if I paid extra.
44:45 <DHess_US> So fuck AT&T and fuck the FCC.
44:58 <Ampera> mmmmm
45:22 <Ampera> there's a whole lotta fucking going on in this room
46:29 <DHess_US> The best internet I ever had was a dry line running SDSL at 768/768 with a /29
46:39 <DHess_US> 20 years ago.
47:00 <Ampera> 768/768
47:08 <DHess_US> SDSL means low latency
47:11 <Ampera> well at least you had a symmetric connection
47:18 <DHess_US> And that.
47:51 <Ampera> and SDSL means symmetric DSL, which yeah over a dial-up modem would be low latency
48:10 <Ampera> but I don't know those to be specifically lower latency than something like ADSL
48:30 <DHess_US> It is lower latency than ADSL because it doesn't use interleaving for error correction.
49:16 <DHess_US> ADSL requires things like interleaving and echo cancellation to gain enough S/N to support higher data rates which increases latency.
49:34 <Ampera> alright that makes sense
49:44 <Ampera> 768/768 though
49:48 <DHess_US> SDSL is the closest thing to a T1 that you can get without a conditioned line.
49:53 <Ampera> I know it was 1999, but damn
50:09 <DHess_US> ADSL back then was 6M/1M or so maximum.
50:35 <DHess_US> Or for most people more like 384/128 if they had a high open line.
50:43 <Ampera> now that /is/ impressive
51:05 <Ampera> it's been a while since I heard the term T1 though
52:15 <DHess_US> SDSL basically implemented a T1 through a modulator and demodulator instead of a baseband.
52:44 <DHess_US> So it worked on longer but crummier lines.
52:47 <Ampera> Our internet is actually pretty good, and I feel lucky to have it compared to options elsewhere in the US
53:08 <Ampera> This is undoubtably the best service we've ever had
54:37 <DHess_US> AT&T does FTTN here now and discontinued all third party DSL.
54:43 <DHess_US> And it sucks.
55:03 <DHess_US> Third party DSL was mostly through COVAD.
55:19 <DHess_US> But my SDSL was just a dry line to a local ISP.
56:58 <Ampera> anyways it is sleepy time for me
57:01 <Ampera> so I'm gonna head to bed
57:02 <Ampera> good night
57:11 <DHess_US> good night then
16:36 * steve30 is getting chocolate cravings again
59:03 * Ampera pets the T3sl4kitten
16:23 <Halcyon> Gawd people are stupid
16:49 <Halcyon> I have a guy arguing on a forum with me, that a Netgear Orbi or similar mesh networking product beats enterprise equipment any day because they are "non mesh"
17:35 <Halcyon> Ampera, you should join this forum and educate some people ;-)
27:28 * steve30 hugs Halcyon 
29:46 <Halcyon> Aww *cuddles*
18:40 <Ampera> Halcyon, meshnets are an experiment in how many things do you want to go wrong, if you're talking about things like meshing wlan
20:11 <Ampera> that being said, asking me to join a forum/site as verbal backup is a bad idea unless you want shit to go down
21:10 <soulreap> hi
21:24 <Ampera> hi
21:36 <soulreap> hi Ampera
21:42 <Ampera> hi soulreap
21:48 <soulreap> hi Halcyon
21:54 <Ampera> hi Halcyon
22:50 <soulreap> it was busy day today
22:54 <soulreap> you ?
23:49 <Ampera> I had a talk with a therapist
24:28 <soulreap> my therapist tetird do now have to meet new one
24:35 <soulreap> retired
26:07 <soulreap> i went with my helper lady today i got new mouse pad
00:51 <Halcyon> Hey soulreap, Ampera
01:22 <soulreap> hii
01:47 <steve30> meow
01:50 <soulreap> woof
01:51 <soulreap> :D
02:08 <Ampera> hi Halcyon
02:09 <Ampera> how do
04:31 <Halcyon> Doing OK
08:17 <Ampera> I'm feeling the urge to waste money
12:35 <steve30> Just had an answerphone message from a computerised voice about suspected fraud on my debit card. Maybe that would explain the refusals this morning.
48:47 <steve30> right, I just phoned them back and confirmed that the payments were mine. Maybe now the NatWest bank will let me buy sex toys.
51:35 <Halcyon> So what did you buy?
52:16 <Ampera> lol
52:35 <steve30> nothing yet, they've now got a 20% off everything sale which took the price down which means I'll have to spend another £2.10 to wave the £3.99 delivery charge.
54:58 <T3sl4> mornin
55:52 <Halcyon> OK, what were you thinking of buying? :P
55:56 <Halcyon> Ampera wants to know :P
56:00 <Halcyon> Hey T3sl4
56:12 <Ampera> I genuinely don't care
56:19 <Ampera> that's his damn business
56:25 <steve30> a fleshlight
56:28 <Halcyon> Oh nice
56:31 <Halcyon> Classy
56:45 <Halcyon> I've never tried one, but they look quite amazing
57:06 <T3sl4> but would you get the pussy version or not :P
57:09 <T3sl4> well, nvm'
57:36 <Halcyon> What difference would it make T3sl4 ?
57:47 <Halcyon> It's a silicone hole in a tube
57:55 <T3sl4> depends how gay you are i guess :P
58:21 <Halcyon> So you're saying, you would never use an "ass" fleshlight ?
58:29 Quit: Bluenote ([email protected]) Quit: Leaving
58:48 <T3sl4> women have asses too
58:56 <Halcyon> Indeed
59:06 <Halcyon> So I'm trying to follow your thought process here....
59:10 <T3sl4> a better analogy would be
59:15 <steve30> He'd probably use the tesla coil version
59:15 <T3sl4> (anal-ogy)
59:30 <Ampera> did I cause this sort of degeneracy, or was I simply just too complicit in allowing it to happen on its own?
59:32 <Ampera> you're all going to hell
59:38 <T3sl4> straight guys using dildos in, or not, a phallus shape
00:22 <Halcyon> I know straight guys who use dildos
00:31 <Halcyon> The shape comes down to what they enjoy
00:37 <Halcyon> Not because "it's a dick"
00:40 <T3sl4> it's not as unusual as some would make you think
00:53 <Halcyon> I know it's not
01:01 <Halcyon> Lots of straight guys like anal play
01:02 <T3sl4> like i've said before, everyone has an ass ;)
01:27 <Ampera> while you are comitting crimes against god, I'm playing bass guitar
01:28 <Halcyon> :P
01:40 <Halcyon> God doesn't exist, so victim-less crime Ampera :)
01:50 * T3sl4 masters Ampera's bass all the way to zero volume
03:07 <Ampera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDd_GlynA6A
03:09 <Ampera> I'm playing this sone
03:11 <Ampera> *song
03:29 <T3sl4> ah, nice
03:40 <Ampera> I'm still trying to get execution down, but I think I can make a quick recording of what I've done
04:01 <T3sl4> just playing along, or reading anything?
04:37 <Ampera> Doing it by memorized ear
04:41 <Ampera> I play it until it sounds okay to me
04:52 <Ampera> not particularly /perfect/, but good enough so it sounds good, and you know what it is
04:55 <Ampera> sorta like fakebook
07:55 <Ampera> http://amperaa.net/cdn/SprYrdTake1.mp3 T3sl4
08:51 <Ampera> Some transitions aren't as smooth as they should be, and the timing is all over the place, because I'm still working on it
09:30 <steve30> woohoo, my card payment worked
10:36 * T3sl4 hugs Ampera
12:37 <Ampera> T3sl4, you know of the whole clusterfuck with Sonic 3's Ice Cap Zone theme?
12:50 <Ampera> where it was a Jetzons song, then it was a Michael Jackson song, but also then a Sonic 3 song
13:10 <T3sl4> heh
13:52 <T3sl4> MJ would've done great things for the game/music, too bad about the things
14:10 <Ampera> well he still had some influence
14:17 <T3sl4> yeah
14:23 <Ampera> with an albeit shaky start, here's a sort of mash up of all influences, with some of my own improv: http://amperaa.net/cdn/SmoothCapTimesTake1.mp3
16:03 <Ampera> I'm not Mike Oldfield, but considering I have 0 cloe what I'm doing, and only use one string, I think I'm not /too/ bad.
16:20 * T3sl4 djents Ampera's skull
16:35 * Ampera bjorks all over T3sl4 
16:42 <T3sl4> bork bork bork!
17:12 <Ampera> björk björk björk!
17:19 <T3sl4> :)
17:25 <Halcyon> You guys are fucked
17:37 * T3sl4 waggles a rubber phallus at Halcyon
17:43 <Halcyon> Careful
18:05 <Ampera> Halcyon, don't get cranky because I can play guitar better than you
18:41 <Halcyon> Everyone can play guitar better than me
18:48 <Halcyon> I'm not blessed with the creative talents
18:59 <Halcyon> I do however have a big penis
19:00 <Halcyon> :P
19:03 <Ampera> Wrong, Halcyon, you're a real peice of work.
19:13 <Ampera> [Citation Needed]
19:23 <Halcyon> Hahaha, 18+ only ;-)
19:27 <T3sl4> Ampera: beware, "work" is what some men call their dick
19:48 <Ampera> T3sl4, in the right context anything can mean penis
19:52 <Halcyon> What do you call yours T3sl4 ?
20:23 <Ampera> I call mine the reason behind my life's suffering and why I haven't killed myself yet
20:31 <Halcyon> Yes, we know Ampera
20:38 <Halcyon> Which is why we don't reference your penis
20:42 <Halcyon> (Have you noticed?)
20:49 <Ampera> why not
20:55 <Ampera> are you bigoted?
21:01 <Halcyon> Because you hate your penis
21:03 <T3sl4> Ampera, you are
21:07 <Halcyon> Why would I draw attention to iy
21:09 <Halcyon> it
21:10 <Ampera> hang on, going to restart Xpra
21:21 <Ampera> back
21:54 <Ampera> also wack
22:02 <Halcyon> Wack >?
22:04 <Halcyon> ?
22:55 <Ampera> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/542853460157136896/581398550638886932/l-40729-wack.png
24:08 <T3sl4> https://i.imgur.com/YlP9VkK.gif
25:06 <Ampera> Halcyon, why wouldn't you
26:22 <Halcyon> Why wouldn't I what?
26:29 <Ampera> wack
26:38 <Halcyon> I do wack, all the time
26:38 <Ampera> WACK YOU FUCK
26:43 <Halcyon> Sometimes a few times a day
26:43 <Ampera> >:(
26:47 <Ampera> not that wack
27:14 <Ampera> for the love of christ, crisco, and crepes
29:12 * Ampera necrobumps Halcyon 
29:28 * T3sl4 babybumps Ampera
29:36 <damian> who here wants a /kill ?!
29:41 * Ampera aborts T3sl4 
29:45 <Ampera> damian, you do
30:26 Set By: (Halcyon) on: Mon Dec 17 17:18:40 2018
30:29 <Halcyon> Rude cunt
30:33 <Halcyon> Leave just as I was talking to you
30:33 <Ampera> lol
30:41 <T3sl4> damian must be a terrible troll, getting kicked by a ircop
31:05 <damian> asshole
31:07 * Remote is on (Ctcps,Events,Raw)
31:11 <Ampera> yes, you are.
31:25 <damian> but thanks, made me see that the austnet ssl needs renewing :P
31:34 <damian> i was meant to get an email about it
31:52 <Ampera> damian, I was able to set up a one click renewal for my site's TLS cert
31:55 * T3sl4 drops an ACME safe on damian
31:56 <Halcyon> You're fucking terrible damian
32:00 <Halcyon> Can you just let Ampera handle it?
32:03 <Ampera> idk why it's so hard to just update a cert
32:03 <Ampera> lol
32:17 <Ampera> not unless they run their infrastructure on pfSense and squid
32:19 <Halcyon> Honestly, I'm going to drive up there and smack you
32:21 <T3sl4> Ampera, mine is zero click
32:23 <damian> how many servers host that site Ampera?
32:35 <Ampera> damian, one
32:41 <Ampera> but if I added more there would be no difference
32:59 <Ampera> at least not if it's the same LAN the servers are on
33:11 <damian> it depends on how you do authentication on the ssl. we have to use web because of #stupidreasonsicantdivulgeatthispointintime
33:26 * Ampera spaces damian out
33:34 <Ampera> lemme check how I ended up doing it
33:35 <T3sl4> dam, ian
33:47 <damian> so it means if one of the damn servers is offline, the ssl won't renew because it can't authenticate the hostnames on it
33:55 <damian> i'd prefer to get a wildcard, but i can't use dns auth :(
35:39 <damian> also, it's only becuase we are using letsencrypt, if we used a standard authority it wouldn't be an issue at all
35:49 <Ampera> my pfsense box uses a small HTTP server to authenticate
35:58 <damian> yeah
36:01 <Ampera> and I use letsencrypt
36:24 <Ampera> renewals are one click for me, if I had to expand this out to some sort of multiple node production environment (which I wouldn't), it would be one click per node
36:32 <damian> so what letsencrypt does is run a token on your web server, and the LE servers connect to it to confirm the token
36:40 <Ampera> aye
36:45 <DogWomble> the letsencrypt project is actually reasonable, allowing more people to use SSL, the downside is i believe they're fairly strict about how renewals get done
37:01 <damian> in our case, we have 10 servers that need to have the token confirmed, so all ten of those servers need that http server running, and to push traffic back to a central token store
37:04 <damian> if any of them are offline, broked
37:19 <Ampera> so then don't have them be offline
37:23 <damian> nah, it's usually pretty good DogWomble, unless you're doing stupid shit :P
37:27 <damian> well duh!
37:32 <damian> but i don't control all of the servers
37:47 <Ampera> mmmm, that would be a problem then
37:48 <damian> but i should have also received an email if the token process failed
37:49 <Halcyon> The joys of IRC
38:04 <Ampera> all this for an overgrown telnet instance
38:07 <damian> yes indeed
38:24 <damian> but isn't most of the internet just an overgrown telnet instance at the end of the day :P
38:46 <T3sl4> you can't telnet boobs
38:48 <Ampera> damian, not when IRC is a plaintext (or TLS then plaintext) protocol over actual telnet standards
38:53 <T3sl4> Halcyon and Ampera excepted
38:57 <Ampera> T3sl4, you can telnet star wars, why not boobs?
39:06 <Halcyon> Don't forget Steve
39:07 <T3sl4> :3
39:07 <!*buffextras> Guest|[email protected] joined
39:07 <!*buffextras> Guest|[email protected] quit with message: [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client]
39:17 <Ampera> Halcyon, there are only two boobs
39:21 <Ampera> have you even seen a woman?
39:23 <T3sl4> steve's a cat
39:32 <Halcyon> Cat's can be homosexual
39:40 <Ampera> [citation needed]
39:51 <Ampera> you can't feel naturally homosexual, so a creature out of nature like a cat can't be homosexual
39:55 <Ampera> checkmate athiests
40:40 <Ampera> in other news WoL is some pretty cool shit
40:57 <T3sl4> WoW of Legends?
43:16 <Ampera> wake on lan
43:48 * Ampera fax bombs T3sl4 
43:59 * T3sl4 glitter bombs Ampera
44:02 <DogWomble> are you fax bombing some boobs?
44:23 <Ampera> DogWomble, no, why would I give away my tiddy pictures?
44:26 * T3sl4 faxes DogWomble some boombs
44:32 <Ampera> not to mention, all my friends are gay
44:44 <Ampera> sadly
44:51 <DogWomble> are are they manboobs?
45:13 <Ampera> A. depends on what you mean by manboobs B. no
56:46 <damian> (@Ampera) damian, not when IRC is a plaintext (or TLS then plaintext) protocol over actual telnet standards
56:51 <damian> so is http
57:18 <damian> that accounts for most traffic people see, at least!
57:22 <Ampera> isn't http a file transfer protocol?
57:31 <damian> nope, that's ftp
57:34 <damian> lol
57:39 <damian> y'know, File Transfer Protocol :P
57:44 <Ampera> but http transfers files, and is a protocol
58:02 <damian> nope, it transfers hypertext
58:11 <damian> y'know, Hyper-Text Transfer Protocol
58:33 <Ampera> so then why can I transfer files with it
58:36 <damian> you can telnet to a web server, punch in a simple request and receive the entire website back
58:45 <damian> same reason you can transfer files over irc
58:53 <Ampera> alright
59:37 <Ampera> amuwaus O
59:41 <Ampera> Anyways I'm gonna go to bed
59:43 <Ampera> night
59:48 <damian> have a great night, friend!
59:53 <damian> don't dream of us too much ;)
01:45 <DogWomble> have we got any vintage tech loveers hanging around?
01:53 <damian> Ampera is one!
02:01 <damian> but what kind of vintage tech
02:05 <DogWomble> ampera is a vintage tech lover or he's vintage tech? :P
02:12 <DogWomble> i'm thinking vintage computer tech
02:38 <damian> he loves vintage computer tech
02:53 <damian> i mean, he calls it vintage, i call it old crap :P
05:04 <DogWomble> well the only reason i ask is that a bit of chatter with a colleague basically led to a bit of character development for a chacter who loves bad humour and vintage computing, i'm just putting some feelers out to see if there's any interest in getting some forum discussions on vintage tech off the back of that
29:47 <K> hello
29:48 <EEVBlog> Hello there, K!
29:50 <K> yay!
37:51 <DogWomble> hi k:)
38:09 <K> wombles
15:09 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: I'm not entirely sure what this is. But it's in the WTF category somewhere... #OSHW https://t.co/MuXUjWi4hZ
22:07 <K> but
22:09 <K> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BB6wj6RyKo
06:58 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: The Most Expensive Lesson Of My Life: Details of SIM port hack by @cooncesean https://t.co/TfyxeaFkLk
12:00 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: FYI: You can access the EEVblog forum on your mobile using the @tapatalk app
20:29 Join: Guest|83004 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
21:10 Quit: Guest|83004 ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
21:16 Join: Guest|83004 ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
21:17 Quit: Guest|83004 ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
Search this day's buffer: