// #d&d — 2011-12-13
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09:30:13 <Avatar> trust Mort
09:47:55 <Thelen> In Mort we trust
09:48:17 <Thelen> Our Mort whoart in Heaven, hallowed be your Mortishness
09:50:57 <Mort> wtf
09:50:59 <Mort> lol
09:51:01 <Mort> kk I was afk
09:51:03 <Mort> and time for breakfast
09:51:32 <Thelen> lol
09:53:55 <Avatar> Mort, breakfast of champions
10:10:01 <Thelen> lol
10:10:13 <Thelen> NutraMort
10:10:19 <Thelen> the breakfast of IronMorts
10:10:31 <Mort> yeah
10:35:30 Topic for #d&d is: PFS: Sat 10am (Mekkis) | CoTE: Sun 10am || All times AEDT (UTC+11:00), CONFIRM YOUR ATTENDANCE | http://dnd.ballig.net/newbie_guide.htm
10:35:30 Topic for #d&d set by Ballig at Sun Dec 4 10:32:25 2011
10:35:30 <***> Buffer Playback...
10:35:30 <***> Playback Complete.
11:08:38 <Avatar> got a rejection for a job I don't remember applying for
11:08:47 <Mekkis> that's good
11:09:00 <Mekkis> most jobs I apply for don't give me rejection letters
11:09:09 <Mekkis> they just ignore me
11:09:18 <Avatar> yeah I must be lucky
11:33:16 <Thelen> lol
12:16:08 Brunius_ ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
12:16:40 <Brunius_> hey guys
12:16:44 <Brunius_> quick question
12:16:51 <Brunius_> What is teh command for ip config?
12:26:00 Tashes has quit (Quit: Leaving)
12:29:02 Brunius_ has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
12:33:02 Jaggedsoul ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
12:34:02 Jaggedsoul has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
13:03:14 <Thelen> ifconfig
13:03:22 <Mekkis> hell no
13:03:31 <Mekkis> ifconfig is massively deprecated
13:03:33 <Mekkis> ip
13:04:01 <Thelen> lol
13:04:06 <Thelen> ifconfig just works though
13:04:24 <Mekkis> not really
13:05:07 <Thelen> type ip and nothing hpapens
13:05:10 <Thelen> type ifconfig and things happen :D
13:05:52 <Mekkis> it doesn't fully handle multiple ips per interface
13:06:53 <Thelen> yea
13:07:02 <Thelen> anyway, what doesn't just work is vzdump --restore
13:07:13 <Thelen> and there are no logs >_<
13:27:50 <Mekkis> it also doesn't like CIDR
13:44:01 <Thelen> well someone that knows about CIDR wouldn't be asking what the command for ip config is :D
13:45:21 <Mekkis> everyone should know CIDR
13:52:08 <Avatar> why
13:53:15 <Mekkis> because it's a simple part of networking
13:53:39 <Avatar> that's not e good enough reason for everyone to know it
13:57:19 <Mekkis> do you understand CIDR?
14:08:01 <Avatar> obviously not
14:15:12 <Mekkis> you're just saying that because you don't want to learn
14:39:05 <Thelen> lol
14:39:16 <Thelen> changing a tyre is a simple part of car ownership
14:39:25 <Thelen> even less people know how to do that than understand CIDR i'd warrant >_>
15:26:19 <Mekkis> I know how to
15:26:30 <Mekkis> doesn't mean that I have done it without help
15:29:09 <Avatar> I'm just saying it because you can't give me a good reason for everyone to know it
15:29:41 <Mekkis> so you can define what addresses are on your network and what addresses aren't
15:30:21 <Thelen> it will be more important to know ipv6 tbh
15:30:34 <Mekkis> IPv6 uses CIDR
15:31:07 <Mekkis> you know, is a /48 larger than a /64?
15:32:03 <Mekkis> This is a picture of a druid taking advantage of the +1 to-hit for high ground:
15:32:05 <Mekkis> http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_01/LionBAR0602_800x672.jpg
15:33:40 <Thelen> ./48 is muuuuch larger than /64 :D
15:33:47 <Thelen> nice pic
15:34:08 <Mekkis> what about a /24 :)
15:34:36 <Thelen> er
15:34:39 <Thelen> trick question?
15:34:57 <Mekkis> depends, doesn't it :S
15:35:05 <Thelen> yea?
15:35:51 <Mekkis> ( is the /24 ipv4 or v6)
15:37:51 <Thelen> well the number of ipv6 ips will be the same
15:38:04 <Thelen> but there will be 0 in /24 ipv4 :D
15:38:13 <Thelen> cos u dun have ipv6 in ipv4 :D
15:39:37 <Mekkis> CA supports IPv6
15:39:55 <Mekkis> it doesn't dual stack though
15:39:56 <Thelen> whats ca
15:40:04 <Mekkis> Combat Assistant
15:40:08 <Thelen> oooh
15:40:12 <Thelen> cool
15:40:23 <Thelen> what to do for dinner?
15:40:34 <Mekkis> Wagyu roast
15:40:39 <Thelen> wtf is that
15:40:58 <Mekkis> if you want, you can connect to 2406:a000:f000:4400:21f:16ff:fe21:a90d port 4000
15:41:12 <Thelen> i dun have ipv6 setup on my pc any more
15:41:25 <Thelen> though i could do a tunnel pretty quickly
15:42:10 <Thelen> 2406: that seems wrondg?
15:43:49 <Thelen> nvm
15:44:45 <Thelen> http://bgp.he.net/ipv6-progress-report.cgi
15:44:47 <Thelen> interesting
15:45:15 <Thelen> surprised teamliquid is that high, but i guess pc gamers are more likely to know ipv6 than other sites
16:34:42 <Mekkis> that's my address
16:56:58 <Ballig> sup jerks
16:57:07 <Brunius> http://games.on.net/article/14462/Richard_Garriott_in_High_Level_Talks_with_EA_about_Ultima_Online_2 is up
17:00:09 <Brunius> Ballig: http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=3251
17:00:21 <Brunius> I'm told it's amazing
17:00:22 <Ballig> is that a virus
17:00:27 <Brunius> no
17:00:37 <Ballig> what is it
17:00:57 <Brunius> You yell at your microphone to use dragon shouts
17:01:07 <Brunius> dragon shouts?
17:01:12 <Brunius> Is that what they're called?
17:01:16 <Brunius> (I don't play skyrim)
17:02:56 <Ballig> or I can just press 'Z'?
17:04:22 <Brunius> Can you?
17:04:39 <Brunius> I don't play Skyrim, so I don't know
17:06:00 <Ballig> do you play skyrim?
17:07:22 <Brunius> Yes
17:07:24 <Brunius> Yes I do
17:16:03 <Avatar> I keep thinking everyday is friday
17:19:05 <Ballig> every day is friday for you
17:27:10 <Ballig> Avatar: do you ever have problems registering a character
17:27:14 <Ballig> where you have to give it a /unique/ name
17:27:19 <Avatar> what game
17:27:20 <Ballig> (PFS character, on the paizo website)
17:27:28 <Avatar> not that I can recall
17:27:39 <Avatar> my names are pretty unique
17:27:49 <Ballig> Cairo isn't that unique
17:27:50 <Avatar> Buck is probably less original than the others, but I didn't have dramas with that
17:27:54 <Ballig> it's the name of a major city
17:28:00 <Avatar> Cairo is unique
17:28:00 <Avatar> nobody is naming their character Cairo man
17:28:15 <Ballig> I get: That avatar name is already in use by another account.
17:28:32 <Avatar> isn't that "Ballig"
17:28:39 <Ballig> it says "Character Name:"
17:28:54 <Avatar> are you registering Artimus
17:29:36 <Ballig> yes
17:30:20 <Ballig> for some reason your characters need to be uniquely named
17:30:23 <Ballig> it makes absolutely no sense
17:30:56 <Avatar> dunno
17:30:59 <Avatar> add a last name
17:31:04 <Ballig> eh
17:31:11 <Ballig> do your characters have last names
17:31:34 <Avatar> yeah
17:31:37 <Avatar> Buck Beastwood
17:31:47 <Ballig> and the "Character Name:" you have for buck says "Buck Beastwood"?
17:31:57 <Avatar> no, that's just Buck
17:32:00 <Avatar> nobody else is using it
17:32:05 <Ballig> that's the part I have a problem with
17:32:20 <Avatar> Cairo Oraci, Mellon Maenven
17:32:22 <Ballig> how is Buck not taken but Bobbob was?
17:32:26 <Avatar> and Roger Ordinary
17:32:38 <Avatar> it's saying Bobbob was taken?
17:32:45 <Ballig> yeah, I ended up having to name the character Bobbob1
17:32:58 <Avatar> can you look up a character by character name
17:33:58 <Ballig> if I search Bobbob and then click "Users" I only see Bobbob1 male Gnome Cavalier
17:38:01 <Ballig> it seems to me like it's trying to create a forum account for each character I make
17:38:03 <Ballig> which seems stupid
17:41:12 <Brunius> I think its for the PbP on there
17:42:56 <Ballig> then it should be opt-in
17:43:07 <Ballig> expecting everyone to have a unique name for their character is stupid
17:48:26 <Brunius> You should write them a complaint
17:48:40 <Brunius> And mail it to their HQ
17:48:58 <Brunius> because snail mail means you mean it
18:08:54 <Mekkis> Ballig, how should I send the DevCA stuff to you?
18:10:51 <Ballig> just send the source files to me in a zip file
18:14:30 * #d&d :You must be at least a half-operator to change the topic on this channel
18:14:34 <Mekkis> ok
18:14:45 * Mekkis reads how the zip command works
18:14:51 <Mekkis> I've got a tar bz2 file...
18:15:24 <Ballig> that's fine
18:15:39 * Offering devca_2011-12-13.tar.bz2 to Ballig
18:15:58 <Ballig> send it again
18:16:02 * DCC SEND devca_2011-12-13.tar.bz2 to Ballig aborted.
18:16:11 * Offering devca_2011-12-13.tar.bz2 to Ballig
18:16:18 <Mekkis> not sure if DCC send works
18:16:28 <Ballig> doesn't seem to be
18:16:31 <Ballig> I think your ipv6 might be an issue
18:16:35 * DCC SEND devca_2011-12-13.tar.bz2 to Ballig aborted.
18:16:43 <Mekkis> it's probably my bouncer
18:16:44 <Ballig> my firewall is asking for connections that it doesn't usually ask for
19:14:38 Spaceshot_tm2_ ([email protected]) has joined #d&d
19:14:50 <Spaceshot_tm2_> haven't been here for a bit
19:15:34 <Ballig> who are you
19:15:48 <Spaceshot_tm2_> some random
19:15:50 <Spaceshot_tm2_> duh
19:15:52 <Ballig> ah
19:16:07 <Spaceshot_tm2_> seem to have a few of them around recently
19:16:21 <Spaceshot_tm2_> anywho, I'll be moving to melbourne in a couple months
19:18:37 <Spaceshot_tm2_> Ballig; you still in canberra?
19:18:43 <Ballig> yes
19:19:19 <Spaceshot_tm2_> cool cool, know if anyone besides brunius is in melb/vic?
19:19:30 <Ballig> Avatar, thelen, tristen
19:19:42 <Spaceshot_tm2_> oh yea avatar is, forgot about that
19:19:58 <Spaceshot_tm2_> you'd think I should remember that XD
19:22:35 <Spaceshot_tm2_> just trying to muster up some collective knowledge of people who might be willing to play an irl game (probs why I didn't think of avatar)
19:22:52 <Ballig> just go to Good Games
19:22:57 <Ballig> whichever one it is that Brunius goes to
19:25:21 <Spaceshot_tm2_> you mean the one in woopwoop?
19:25:29 <Ballig> I don't know where it is
19:26:31 <Spaceshot_tm2_> it's like 45mins - 1hr train ride from the city
19:26:39 <Spaceshot_tm2_> unless he has moved since then
19:28:27 <Ballig> I know he's in woopwoop, I don't know whether the good games he goes to is also
19:28:40 <Ballig> I imagine if a good games in woopwoop does it, others in melbourne would
19:30:30 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I'm not sure if I went to good games or mind games (I think mind games), but it was just full of stock, nowhere to play
19:30:35 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and never found a good games
19:46:46 <Brunius> Blackburn
19:46:54 <Brunius> Blackburn is 30 minutes from the city
19:47:08 <Brunius> Blackburn has a lot of space
19:47:20 <Brunius> There's a Good Games in the city
19:47:29 <Brunius> Mind Games doesn't have anywhere to play
19:53:43 <Mekkis> Spaceshot_tm2_, you were there.....
19:54:43 <Brunius> I got TPK'd there, and it wasn't even a game Matt was DMing...
19:55:10 <Mekkis> ah
19:55:13 <Mekkis> first steps two
19:55:17 <Mekkis> who was DMing?
19:55:26 <Ballig> I've done first steps one and half of first steps three!
19:55:31 <Ballig> maybe I should avoid first steps two
19:55:32 <Ballig> :p
19:55:44 <Mekkis> I hate first steps two
19:55:48 <Brunius> Feth, can't remember his name
19:55:49 <Thelen> i'd be up for a game
19:55:54 <Brunius> Ryan?
19:55:56 <Thelen> depending on how many ppl, could host it here tbh
19:55:58 <Thelen> plenty of space
19:56:02 <Thelen> we got a nice size table
19:58:23 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I'm going to be studying 5mins out of melbourne CBD, AIE
19:58:45 <Brunius> AIE?
19:58:46 <Spaceshot_tm2_> wouldn't want to to take a train ride back and forth weekly, doubtfully even fortnightly
19:58:55 <Spaceshot_tm2_> Academy of Interactive Entertainment
19:58:59 <Mekkis> wow
19:59:01 <Mekkis> that's lazy
19:59:03 <Brunius> lol man, it takes me an hour to get to GG Blackburn
19:59:12 <Thelen> i can get to blackburn in prob 15-20m
19:59:22 <Brunius> Whereabouts are you, Thelen?
19:59:24 <Mekkis> it takes me four hours
19:59:32 <Mekkis> probably more like five
19:59:32 <Thelen> lingwood
19:59:38 <Brunius> You don't count, Mekkis.
19:59:39 <Spaceshot_tm2_> mekkis, do you go there weekly?
19:59:42 <Brunius> You're interstate :P
20:00:01 <Brunius> lingwood? Never heard of it. Which direction is it?
20:00:13 <Ballig> probably means collingwood
20:00:22 <Thelen> ringwood
20:00:22 <Thelen> lol
20:00:28 <Brunius> Ringwood makes more sense
20:00:33 <Ballig> sounds like a disease
20:00:34 <Thelen> lingwood = asian speak
20:00:37 <Brunius> He
20:00:38 <Thelen> thats ringworm
20:00:39 <Brunius> Heh
20:00:55 <Thelen> or if ur a total bogan, "ringy"
20:01:01 <Brunius> RINGGGAAAA
20:01:20 <Thelen> yea
20:01:27 <Brunius> I'm out past Belgrave (Bogan translation: BELLAAAA)
20:01:35 <Thelen> i know of belgrave
20:01:44 <Thelen> emerald? cockatwo?
20:01:48 <Brunius> Emerald :D
20:01:54 <Brunius> (Cockatoo)
20:01:59 <Thelen> mmm
20:02:18 <Brunius> The Portal 2 soundtrack is very...individual
20:02:19 <Thelen> is a nice place
20:03:41 <Thelen> mm wish i could play P2 DLC
20:03:44 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I might be tempted if we weren't playing dnd (been playing that way too much lately) XD
20:03:45 <Thelen> but it never finds anyone
20:04:12 <Brunius> P2?
20:04:17 <Brunius> Oh wait
20:04:18 <Brunius> Dammit
20:04:25 <Thelen> Pentium 2
20:05:12 <Spaceshot_tm2_> wha?
20:05:24 <Spaceshot_tm2_> hey brunius, you still play 40k?
20:06:45 <Mekkis> how's your RPG going, Spaceshot_tm2_?
20:06:58 <Thelen> its sad when you have soo many whiskey bottles you loose track of the one with something still in it :/
20:07:28 <Spaceshot_tm2_> Disciples? getting ther
20:07:29 <Spaceshot_tm2_> there*
20:07:54 <Mekkis> Thelen, you must have been drinking: it's rather difficult to loose track.
20:08:12 <Thelen> no just a mess of crap on the floor :P
20:08:21 <Thelen> about to though
20:08:26 <Mekkis> to loose?
20:08:30 <Thelen> drink
20:08:34 <Thelen> while playing star battle
20:08:39 <Mekkis> I don't like "loose" works in that context
20:08:44 <Mekkis> did you mean "lose"?
20:08:59 <Thelen> lose loose moose shmooze
20:10:49 <Spaceshot_tm2_> exactly, this guy sounds like a good RPer
20:11:40 <Brunius> Yeah, still playing 40k
20:13:26 <Spaceshot_tm2_> nice nice, gonna get anything for xmas 40k related?
20:19:36 <Spaceshot_tm2_> but yea, I might make the trip to blackburn GG if it's worth it
20:20:05 <Mekkis> anyone here have win7 with the updates turned on?
20:20:06 <Brunius> It's PFS :P
20:20:59 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I do mekkis, at least to my knowledge
20:21:47 <Mekkis> how often does it update?
20:22:44 <Brunius> Did I mention I won't be here from tomorrow until friday?
20:23:30 <Mekkis> no
20:24:27 <Spaceshot_tm2_> well it collects the small updates all the time
20:24:34 <Spaceshot_tm2_> so you can update them on your own time
20:24:53 <Spaceshot_tm2_> by collect I mean find out hey need to be downloaded, not actually downloading them
20:24:59 <Spaceshot_tm2_> the large ones are every few months
20:25:16 <Spaceshot_tm2_> the large ones ask you to restart and update them
20:25:27 <Mekkis> I meant on fully automatic
20:26:09 <Spaceshot_tm2_> ahh
20:26:27 <Spaceshot_tm2_> well it always says you've got updates (but doesn't ask to restart and update) every so often
20:26:34 <Spaceshot_tm2_> once a week or so it'll add one
20:26:40 <Spaceshot_tm2_> dunno, don't check/care that often
20:30:34 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and brunius, I meant I'd go if I'd DM a non DnD game (preferably Disciples)
20:30:45 <Spaceshot_tm2_> but you never know, I might get a group in the city
20:32:15 <Brunius> Ah
20:35:57 <Spaceshot_tm2_> yea, been playing DnD for too long
20:36:10 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and haven't DMed in ages
20:36:29 <Mekkis> 4e?
20:38:04 <Spaceshot_tm2_> was, then a small lul of playing a few other stuff shortly
20:38:12 <Spaceshot_tm2_> then pathfinder (with 2 fucking annoying people)
20:43:04 <Spaceshot_tm2_> want to get disciples up and running
20:43:51 <Mekkis> is any of it testable yet?
20:45:11 <Spaceshot_tm2_> haven't chosen combat system yet
20:45:16 <Spaceshot_tm2_> but I do have a few written down
20:45:42 <Spaceshot_tm2_> one is a roll vs roll system
20:45:53 <Spaceshot_tm2_> another is a roll vs target system
20:45:59 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and I might have a third somewher
20:46:02 <Spaceshot_tm2_> somewhere*
20:46:30 <Mekkis> opposed rolls is simply 2d20-21
20:47:41 <Spaceshot_tm2_> not exactly
20:48:35 <Mekkis> you can't dispute that
20:49:48 <Spaceshot_tm2_> lets say dice A rolls a 4 out of 20
20:49:56 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and Dice B rolls a 3 out of 20
20:50:09 <Spaceshot_tm2_> in roll vs roll, dice A is up by 1
20:50:30 <Spaceshot_tm2_> in 2d20-21 that would be 7-21 = -14
20:50:45 <Spaceshot_tm2_> only a tad different
20:50:51 <Mekkis> still a failure
20:51:03 <Spaceshot_tm2_> ???
20:51:14 <Spaceshot_tm2_> explain
20:51:45 <Mekkis> look at the probabilities
20:52:06 <Spaceshot_tm2_> example?
20:52:15 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I mean explanation
20:52:16 <Mekkis> ok
20:52:58 <Mekkis> say the target is 10
20:53:00 <Spaceshot_tm2_> sure -19 to 19 is a bigger gap than 1-20
20:53:21 <Mekkis> your chance of failing (getting less than 10) on 1d20 is 9/20
20:53:28 <Mekkis> of meeting it is 1/2
20:53:30 <Mekkis> 1/20
20:53:36 <Mekkis> and of exceeding it is 10/20
20:54:17 <Mekkis> if it's an opposed roll with no modifiers: 1d20 vs 1d20
20:55:06 <Mekkis> your chance of rolling the same number is 1/20
20:55:39 <Mekkis> and your chance of a success is 19/40, likewise your chance of failure
20:56:15 <Mekkis> and you'll always have the heads/tails/edge thing - until you start adding modifiers
20:56:44 <Mekkis> once you've introduced modifiers, you then start looking at shifting up and down the bell curve
20:57:26 <Mekkis> you've increased the range already
20:57:47 <Spaceshot_tm2_> yes, but once one side starts adding modifiers
20:58:10 <Spaceshot_tm2_> the other side has a harder chance of success in roll vs target than it does in roll vs roll
20:58:25 <Spaceshot_tm2_> on an exact 1 to 1 basis
20:58:33 <Mekkis> depends if they're doing 2d20-21 or 1d20
20:58:48 <Spaceshot_tm2_> again, how is it 2d20-21
20:59:03 <Mekkis> how do you determine a winner in an opposed roll?
20:59:08 <Spaceshot_tm2_> well I do kind of get it
20:59:20 <Spaceshot_tm2_> but it doesn't make sense in practice
20:59:29 <Spaceshot_tm2_> the winner is the one with the higher roll
20:59:45 <Spaceshot_tm2_> a 1 vs a 2 the 2 wins
20:59:58 <Mekkis> d20+n < d20+m ?
21:00:04 <Mekkis> correct?
21:00:32 <Spaceshot_tm2_> yes
21:00:42 <Mekkis> so, moving it around a bit, you get:
21:00:55 <Mekkis> d20 - d20 + n < m ?
21:01:00 <Mekkis> correct?
21:01:05 <Spaceshot_tm2_> nope
21:01:09 <Mekkis> why not?
21:01:17 <Spaceshot_tm2_> because of my previous example
21:01:27 <Spaceshot_tm2_> [09:19.50] <Spaceshot_tm2_> lets say dice A rolls a 4 out of 20
21:01:28 <Spaceshot_tm2_> [09:19.57] <Spaceshot_tm2_> and Dice B rolls a 3 out of 20
21:01:28 <Spaceshot_tm2_> [09:20.11] <Spaceshot_tm2_> in roll vs roll, dice A is up by 1
21:01:28 <Spaceshot_tm2_> [09:20.31] <Spaceshot_tm2_> in 2d20-21 that would be 7-21 = -1
21:01:34 <Mekkis> we're no talking about your examples here
21:01:38 <Spaceshot_tm2_> -14
21:01:45 <Spaceshot_tm2_> like I said, in theory it can make sense
21:01:48 <Spaceshot_tm2_> in practice it doesn't
21:01:55 <Mekkis> the question is: DOES d20+n < d20+m rearrange to d20 - d20 + n < m
21:02:07 <Spaceshot_tm2_> you are spouting theory, I gave a practical example
21:02:12 <Spaceshot_tm2_> that broke the theory
21:02:30 <Mekkis> you're giving a BS example with no meaning, I'm giving solid theory
21:02:36 <Spaceshot_tm2_> ???
21:02:54 <Spaceshot_tm2_> how am I giving a BS example?
21:02:58 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I used your theory
21:03:05 <Spaceshot_tm2_> of 2d20-21
21:03:09 <Mekkis> "dice A is up by 1" means NOTHING
21:03:11 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and compared it to roll vs roll
21:03:51 <Spaceshot_tm2_> the first dice rolled, which I called 'dice A' is winning at a difference of 1 when comparing the 4 that dice A rolled to the 3 that dice B rolled
21:03:54 <Spaceshot_tm2_> make more sense?
21:04:07 <Mekkis> not at all
21:04:11 <Spaceshot_tm2_> how so?
21:04:32 <Mekkis> because it isn't a dice that "wins", we're talking about the outcome
21:04:47 <Mekkis> in roll vs roll, it's simple d20 < d20
21:04:50 <Spaceshot_tm2_> why are we talking about the outcome?
21:05:07 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and yes we are talking about the outcome of success or failure
21:05:24 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and I wouldn't call -14 success, but a 4 beats a 3
21:05:55 <Mekkis> and I'd state that even so, your overall probability of success is the same
21:06:49 <Spaceshot_tm2_> yes, I wouldn't disagree that for a strait d20 roll vs a straight d20 roll the odds are practically the same (1/20 vs 1/40, but I wouldn't care about that difference) as d20 vs 10
21:07:26 <Spaceshot_tm2_> straight*
21:07:33 <Brunius> I'm gonna be in Mt. Evelyn from tomorrow until Friday, so I won't be in here
21:07:37 <Brunius> Night yo
21:07:42 Brunius is now known as Brunius_AFK
21:07:42 <Mekkis> nice
21:07:47 <Mekkis> enjoy yourself
21:07:53 <Spaceshot_tm2_> have fun
21:08:30 <Spaceshot_tm2_> anywho, I would disagree that d20 < d20 isn't the same as 2d20-21
21:08:32 <Mekkis> and once you start adding modifiers, 2d20+n-21 < m is correct
21:09:12 <Spaceshot_tm2_> right up a simple example that proves that it is the same
21:09:14 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and I'll agree
21:09:29 <Mekkis> want to see the PDF
21:09:42 <Mekkis> I think I have a copy of MATLAB here
21:09:56 <Mekkis> (Probability Distribution Function)
21:09:57 <Spaceshot_tm2_> is it that hard for you to right up one simple example yourself?
21:10:16 <Mekkis> sure
21:10:42 <Spaceshot_tm2_> then I doubt care about any of your theories if you cbf putting them to practice
21:11:06 <Mekkis> say that you get all 400 possible outcomes from 2d20, and compare them
21:11:23 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I'm just asking for 1 out of that 400
21:12:01 <Spaceshot_tm2_> just pick 2 numbers, and some random modifiers, and compare
21:12:21 <Mekkis> !throw 2d20-21
21:12:22 <diebot> Mekkis, 2d20-21: [2d20=19,5] 3
21:12:29 <Mekkis> that would be a success
21:12:36 <Spaceshot_tm2_> yep
21:12:37 <Mekkis> happy now?
21:12:39 <Mekkis> !throw 2d20-21
21:12:40 <diebot> Mekkis, 2d20-21: [2d20=8,15] 2
21:12:43 <Mekkis> so would that
21:12:44 <Spaceshot_tm2_> that wouldn't
21:12:59 <Mekkis> it would
21:13:14 <Spaceshot_tm2_> in that theory, in d20 < d20 it wouldn't
21:13:26 <Spaceshot_tm2_> the first would because the first number is higher
21:13:39 <Spaceshot_tm2_> the second wouldn't because the second number is lower, 8 < 15 is false
21:13:51 <Mekkis> you are confusing interpretation with probability
21:14:33 <Spaceshot_tm2_> no, I'm trying to explain to you the simple fact that if you roll 2 dice, comparing them against one another and adding them together and going -21 to the results are different
21:14:53 <Mekkis> and I don't care about that. I care about the overall probability
21:15:12 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I'm not questioning end result, interpretation or anything else but the raw facts
21:15:40 <Thelen> if i had a clue wtf you were arguing about i might be able to contribute -> probability expert
21:15:42 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I also don't care if the chance of probabilty ends up being practically the same all the way through
21:16:16 <Spaceshot_tm2_> Thelen, the theory Mekkis is stating is that 2d20-21 is the same as d20 vs d20
21:16:56 <Thelen> i dunno
21:17:01 <Thelen> just have to look at the probability distribution
21:17:16 <Spaceshot_tm2_> !throw 2d20-21
21:17:17 <diebot> Spaceshot_tm2_, 2d20-21: [2d20=7,9] -5
21:17:25 <Spaceshot_tm2_> !throw 2d20-21
21:17:25 <diebot> Spaceshot_tm2_, 2d20-21: [2d20=18,2] -1
21:17:48 <Spaceshot_tm2_> the second would be a success in d20 vs d20, but in mekkis' theory it is a failure
21:18:02 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I'm not questioning probability
21:18:04 <Mekkis> you could say that rolling -(1d20-21) is therefore different probability to rolling 1d20
21:18:10 <Thelen> still don't understand :/
21:18:56 <Spaceshot_tm2_> 1(1d20-21) is the same as rolling 1d20, probability or not
21:19:05 <Spaceshot_tm2_> -(1d20-21)*
21:19:17 <Thelen> 1d20 vs 1d20 is different to 2d20-21
21:19:42 <Spaceshot_tm2_> the probability might be hairline different but practically similar and I already agreed on that
21:19:55 <Spaceshot_tm2_> the end result of the rolls are what makes it different
21:19:57 <Thelen> so you agree wit hthat?
21:19:59 <Thelen> or not
21:20:17 <Mekkis> no it isn't Spaceshot_tm2_
21:20:35 <Spaceshot_tm2_> [09:47.27] <diebot> Spaceshot_tm2_, 2d20-21: [2d20=18,2] -1
21:20:42 <Mekkis> because if I roll a 1 on 1d20, the total's 1, whereas if I roll a 1 on -(1d20-21), the total's 21
21:20:43 <Spaceshot_tm2_> that would make a failure is 2d20-21
21:20:48 <Mekkis> sorry 20
21:20:50 <Spaceshot_tm2_> but d20 vs d20 you'd win
21:21:43 <Spaceshot_tm2_> you could also say that 1d100/5 is also different to 1d20
21:21:57 <Mekkis> that's what you're trying to convince us of
21:22:00 <Thelen> idk wtf u two are saying any more :D
21:22:00 <Spaceshot_tm2_> but I don't want to go off onto tangents/theories that don't mean much
21:23:36 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and again mekkis, I'm not caring about probability
21:23:58 <Mekkis> then you'll have a big shock if people end up playing the game you're designing
21:24:11 <Spaceshot_tm2_> if a player rolls 1d20 or -(1d20-21) they are still trying to hit a target number with the same known probability
21:24:39 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and with d20 vs d20 you'll be getting players not trying to hit a set number
21:24:52 <Spaceshot_tm2_> but instead are trying to best the other dice roll
21:24:53 <Thelen> mate
21:24:53 <Mekkis> the "set number" is m - n
21:24:55 <Thelen> just make a table
21:25:10 <Spaceshot_tm2_> ??? ok you've just confused me Thelen
21:25:27 <Thelen> of the outcomes
21:25:33 <Thelen> its only 20x20, use excel
21:25:38 <Spaceshot_tm2_> again....?
21:28:09 <Spaceshot_tm2_> you're saying write up 400 different examples and compare them, and then compare the final number of successes per theory to end up realising that they are within 1/20 of a difference?
21:28:19 <Spaceshot_tm2_> or 1/40, I don't remember at this moment
21:28:54 <Thelen> no
21:28:58 <Thelen> make a table of what ur comparing
21:29:07 <Thelen> the results are the same
21:29:51 <Spaceshot_tm2_> that is what I'm comparing
21:29:57 <Spaceshot_tm2_> 2d20-21 and d20 vs d20
21:30:37 <Thelen> so make 2 columns
21:30:41 <Thelen> and then compare the totals
21:30:46 <Thelen> there is no probability involved
21:30:56 <Spaceshot_tm2_> what totals?
21:31:02 <Thelen> of each resulkt
21:31:07 <Thelen> 1+1-21 vs 1+1
21:31:11 <Thelen> and so on
21:31:17 <Spaceshot_tm2_> ...?
21:31:18 <Spaceshot_tm2_> why?
21:31:29 <Thelen> cos the totals will be the totals...
21:31:38 <Thelen> and if they are the same
21:31:41 <Thelen> or different
21:31:42 <Thelen> you'll see
21:32:01 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I'm not trying to add the d20 vs d20 together, I'm only trying to find the winner
21:32:15 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and I may want to also find the difference (which 2d20-21 can't do)
21:32:20 <Thelen> er yea vs
21:32:28 <Thelen> u can find the difference
21:32:36 <Spaceshot_tm2_> in 2d20-21?
21:32:42 <Thelen> in whatever u want
21:32:53 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I think you're confused, drunk, or both
21:32:57 <Thelen> k
21:33:02 <Thelen> u don't even need macros
21:33:13 <Thelen> just plug each equoation into excel
21:33:37 <Spaceshot_tm2_> why do I need to? I don't believe I see a need to
21:33:50 <Thelen> to prove ur right
21:33:50 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I know that the difference in probability is only 1/20 or 1/40
21:33:58 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I can do it once, and have
21:34:18 <Spaceshot_tm2_> [09:19.50] <Spaceshot_tm2_> lets say dice A rolls a 4 out of 20
21:34:18 <Spaceshot_tm2_> [09:19.57] <Spaceshot_tm2_> and Dice B rolls a 3 out of 20
21:34:18 <Spaceshot_tm2_> [09:20.11] <Spaceshot_tm2_> in roll vs roll, dice A is up by 1
21:34:18 <Spaceshot_tm2_> [09:20.31] <Spaceshot_tm2_> in 2d20-21 that would be 7-21 = -14
21:34:20 <Thelen> well show the working :D
21:34:30 <Mekkis> that doesn't show anything
21:34:42 <Spaceshot_tm2_> again, why doesn't it?
21:34:50 <Thelen> whats the failure standard?
21:34:51 <Thelen> -15?
21:34:51 <Thelen> 0?
21:34:52 <Mekkis> other than that you don't understand probability
21:34:52 <Thelen> +15?
21:35:02 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I'm not talking about probability ffs
21:35:10 <Spaceshot_tm2_> how many fucking times do you need to know this
21:35:40 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I. DON'T. GIVE. A. FUCK. ABOUT. THE. PROBABILITY. F.F.S
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21:36:46 <Mekkis> ok
21:36:51 <Thelen> but ur talking about a probability function :/
21:36:51 <Mekkis> well then we're decided
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21:37:06 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I'm talking about wtf happens when the dice are rolled
21:37:17 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and the fact that it is fucking different outcomes of those rolled dice
21:37:19 <Mekkis> Spaceshot_tm2 doesn't care whether or not anything that he's dealing with is fair or sound
21:37:21 <Spaceshot_tm2_> if you choose either way
21:37:29 <Mekkis> cool
21:37:47 <Mekkis> I'll wait until after I roll before I decide whether to use 1d20 or -(1d20-21)
21:37:54 <Spaceshot_tm2_> Mekkis; can you get the difference between the d20 vs d20 whilist doing 2d20-21?
21:38:02 <Mekkis> yes
21:38:08 <Spaceshot_tm2_> prove it
21:38:15 <Spaceshot_tm2_> with an example
21:38:20 <Spaceshot_tm2_> not a pdf link, or whatever
21:38:29 <Mekkis> !throw 2d20-21
21:38:30 <diebot> Mekkis, 2d20-21: [2d20=12,17] 8
21:38:35 <Mekkis> the difference is 8
21:38:39 <Mekkis> in favour of the roller
21:38:46 <Spaceshot_tm2_> look at the dice
21:38:54 <Spaceshot_tm2_> the difference is 5, against the first dice
21:38:59 Ballig is now known as Ballig1
21:39:01 <Mekkis> incorrect
21:39:11 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I dunno, I think 12-17 is -5
21:39:19 <Spaceshot_tm2_> but that's only because the last time I checked
21:39:26 <Spaceshot_tm2_> it's how maths went
21:39:52 <Mekkis> yes
21:40:05 <Mekkis> but you don't understand probability
21:40:15 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I do understand probability
21:40:33 <Spaceshot_tm2_> again, because asians can't read
21:40:39 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I don't care about probability
21:40:44 <Spaceshot_tm2_> at this very moment
21:40:47 <Spaceshot_tm2_> on this very subject
21:40:53 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I'm only caring at this very moment
21:40:54 <Mekkis> don't bring racism into this please
21:41:15 <Spaceshot_tm2_> then don't get me frustrated because you can't remember that I don't care about probability in this case
21:41:22 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and haven't since I first stated I didn't care
21:41:26 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and haven't cared about it since
21:41:34 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I did already agree with you that the probability is the same
21:41:45 <Spaceshot_tm2_> that is not what I'm trying to get through to you
21:42:01 <Thelen> ur the only one getting the point atm
21:42:21 <Mekkis> he also doesn't understand what prove means
21:42:41 <Thelen> how do u knoiw?
21:42:44 <Mekkis> thank god for /ignore
21:42:46 <Thelen> what is the failure standard?
21:42:47 <Thelen> why -21?
21:42:50 <Thelen> why not -500?
21:42:53 <Thelen> or -5?
21:42:59 <Mekkis> because -21 is the average of 2d20
21:43:45 <Mekkis> the failure standard is the difference between the modifiers, -21
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21:44:32 <Mekkis> an opposed roll is d20+n < d20+m, which arranges to d20 - d20 + n < m
21:45:58 <Thelen> still don't understand mathematically what u want to say Spaceshot_tm
21:46:47 <Mekkis> -d20 can be replaced by d20-21
21:47:01 <Mekkis> so you have d20+d20 +n - 21 < m
21:47:15 <Mekkis> or 2d20-21 + n < m
21:47:32 <Mekkis> with no modifiers, it's 2d20-21 < 0
21:48:25 <Spaceshot_tm2_> basically, you roll the dice, take both theories, and you get 2 different results
21:48:37 <Spaceshot_tm2_> the results lie within practically the same band of probability
21:48:51 <Spaceshot_tm2_> but those 2 dice results will give a different end result
21:48:55 <Thelen> but u can't compare the same dice roll
21:48:59 <Thelen> u have to look at every combination
21:49:08 <Spaceshot_tm2_> not really
21:49:14 <Spaceshot_tm2_> you only have to look at the extremes
21:49:17 <Thelen> yes its caled probability distribution
21:49:35 <Spaceshot_tm2_> lets say there is 20 vs 20
21:49:45 <Spaceshot_tm2_> that is a draw, or 0 difference
21:49:50 <Spaceshot_tm2_> in 2d20-21, that is a 19
21:50:05 <Spaceshot_tm2_> if 20 vs 1, that is a 19
21:50:09 <Thelen> ok
21:50:15 <Spaceshot_tm2_> in 2d20-21, that is a 0
21:50:26 <Spaceshot_tm2_> need I keep going?
21:51:02 <Thelen> yea still dun get it :/
21:51:10 <Spaceshot_tm2_> ...
21:51:15 <Spaceshot_tm2_> !throw 2d20-21
21:51:15 <diebot> Spaceshot_tm2_, 2d20-21: [2d20=15,10] 4
21:51:18 <Thelen> what is the fail standard?
21:51:21 <Thelen> 0?
21:51:22 <Thelen> 10
21:51:23 <Thelen> ?
21:52:04 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I'm caring about the difference at this very moment, but for a straight d20 vs d20 (no modifiers) would be 1 for success, 0 for draw and -1 for loss
21:52:06 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and so on
21:52:33 <Spaceshot_tm2_> lets use a roll
21:52:38 <Spaceshot_tm2_> !throw 2d20-21
21:52:39 <diebot> Spaceshot_tm2_, 2d20-21: [2d20=5,19] 3
21:52:59 <Spaceshot_tm2_> now, in mekkis' way of doing it, that is a success with a 3 difference (or margin of success)
21:53:15 <Spaceshot_tm2_> in my way, or d20 vs d20, that is a loss with a margin of -14
21:53:52 <Spaceshot_tm2_> the difference isn't in the probability (don't want to hear about probability anymore on this subject)
21:54:05 <Spaceshot_tm2_> it's about if 2 dice a rolled, they will get different results
21:54:18 <Thelen> i dun understand ur argument still ://
21:54:27 <Spaceshot_tm2_> that is the arguement
21:54:47 <Spaceshot_tm2_> d20 vs d20 is different in practice (as in the dice are rolled and then you compare the results) to d20-21
21:55:05 <Spaceshot_tm2_> even though in the probability and some forms of theory they are practically the same
21:55:55 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I don't think I can explain it much simplier than that
21:56:05 <Thelen> isn't Mekkis agreeing?
21:56:07 <Thelen> :/
21:56:16 <Spaceshot_tm2_> never did to my knowledge
21:56:21 <Thelen> lol ok
21:56:30 <Spaceshot_tm2_> that's all I'm waiting for XD (yea it's a dick move, but he deserves it)
21:56:57 <Thelen> well i don't understand either
21:57:04 <Thelen> but purely based on evidence
21:57:05 <Spaceshot_tm2_> also in the players mind (not counting mekkis) rolling a d20 vs a d20 is more engaging than having the player roll 2d20-21
21:57:17 <Thelen> not really
21:57:19 <Thelen> depends on the player
21:57:21 <Thelen> and the situation
21:57:23 <Mekkis> it's slower :S
21:57:31 <Thelen> are you rolling against the GM?
21:57:59 <Spaceshot_tm2_> well, the GM does run the monsters usually
21:58:15 <Mekkis> and encourages more DM vs player psychology, which is not a good thing
21:58:27 <Spaceshot_tm2_> players need to be on their toes
21:58:28 <Thelen> i'd have to disagree with that :P
21:58:30 <Thelen> sometimes its a good thing
21:58:33 <Thelen> depends on the game though
21:58:38 <Thelen> but generally no
21:58:48 <Thelen> and especially because the GM is usually a friend/player
21:58:54 <Thelen> so yea, keeping everything friendly is good
21:59:49 <Spaceshot_tm2_> how is having monsters having a fluctuating AC rather than a static one make the GM the evil guy more so than he already would be (not saying GMs are evil, but their evil level wouldn't rise)
22:00:04 <Thelen> adds to the story
22:00:16 <Spaceshot_tm2_> adds to the realism
22:00:22 <Mekkis> Spaceshot_tm2_, perhaps you should try it both ways?
22:00:48 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I've been trying a single player's roll vs a target in combat for ages
22:00:50 <Mekkis> since you're so into "screw the theory, what's it like in practice"
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22:01:28 <Spaceshot_tm2_> also, the maths of -21 could end up slowing the game more than just having number vs number
22:02:02 <Spaceshot_tm2_> sure modifiers will come down to it and that might also change things
22:02:12 <Spaceshot_tm2_> but it shouldn't end up being too bad
22:02:16 <Mekkis> you can just add 21 to the target DC
22:02:17 <Mekkis> instead
22:02:33 <Spaceshot_tm2_> ...
22:02:37 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I don't think you get it
22:02:44 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I don't want to have a static target DC for combat
22:03:19 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I want the monsters to have a role/roll in the combat after their turn (they don't just freeze in place once someone else gets a turn)
22:11:06 <Spaceshot_tm2_> also, not sure if I want to run Disciples or one of my other (though a lot less developed/written for yet) RPGs/RPG ideas
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22:15:59 <Avatar> hey it's spaceshot
22:16:02 <Thelen> i see
22:16:06 <Thelen> hey its Avatar!
22:16:10 <Thelen> cool movie bro!
22:16:12 <Spaceshot_tm2_> sup Avatar
22:16:21 <Mekkis> which one, Thelen?
22:16:24 <Spaceshot_tm2_> short story, moving ot melbourne soon
22:16:56 <Thelen> derp, Avatar :D
22:17:08 <Thelen> fuck of waaiaiaiiaia.net
22:17:29 <Thelen> keeps pming me shit
22:17:50 <Mekkis> do you have a website, Thelen?
22:17:58 <Thelen> www.google.com
22:18:00 <Thelen> for what?
22:18:01 <Avatar> the other avatar
22:18:19 <Avatar> Spaceshot_tm2_: you can come to cons
22:18:31 <Spaceshot_tm2_> could
22:18:39 <Spaceshot_tm2_> still only a lowly student
22:18:51 <Avatar> so is brunius, he goes
22:19:11 <Spaceshot_tm2_> but his parents pay for his shit
22:19:52 <Avatar> can't you afford train tickets
22:20:01 <Avatar> oh, con tickets
22:20:07 <Spaceshot_tm2_> durka durka XD
22:20:15 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I should be able to go to cons
22:20:16 <Avatar> well, I'm unemployed if that's any consolation ;)
22:20:38 <Spaceshot_tm2_> but it all depends on where me and the missus are staying
22:20:55 <Spaceshot_tm2_> that will then determine how much spending cash we'll have
22:21:01 <Thelen> dump her
22:21:04 <Thelen> cons > gf
22:21:08 <Avatar> haha
22:21:11 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I dunno
22:21:16 <Mekkis> take her to the cons
22:21:17 <Mekkis> obv
22:21:24 <Spaceshot_tm2_> Mekkis has the better idea
22:21:39 <Mekkis> like Jerod did with Haley
22:21:40 <Spaceshot_tm2_> she has played RPGs (and doesn't mind them more than the WTF HUGE BOOK part)
22:22:12 <Avatar> YEP bring her along
22:22:19 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and she does play minis (has a hordes skorne army, might get her into 40k as well, she has played a demo game at GW and liked it)
22:23:02 <Spaceshot_tm2_> Avatar; what's the likely hood of you playing a non pathfinder/pfs campaign?
22:23:33 <Avatar> slim, I'm only really into PFS these days
22:23:41 <Avatar> CotE is a PFS sanctioned module
22:24:00 <Spaceshot_tm2_> bah, you're no help
22:24:03 <Spaceshot_tm2_> :P
22:24:18 <Spaceshot_tm2_> really want to get disciples done and ready to test out in melbourne
22:24:42 <Spaceshot_tm2_> and I've got a lot better chance of trying out an RPG with people I somewhat already know than game programmers at AIE
22:24:44 <Avatar> what system is it
22:24:50 <Spaceshot_tm2_> my own
22:25:11 <Avatar> I'd play a game to help trial a system
22:25:13 <Spaceshot_tm2_> which will be in testable mode once I jot down random yet somewhat balanced looking numbers to test out
22:25:19 <Avatar> but not ongoing
22:25:23 <Spaceshot_tm2_> that's the issue
22:25:45 <Spaceshot_tm2_> I'd want a group to be the main test group
22:30:38 <Spaceshot_tm2_> so you'd play a session or 2 to test out the system and that'd be it?
22:31:04 <Avatar> yeah
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22:31:51 <Spaceshot_tm2_> mmm
22:32:04 <Mort> god
22:32:05 <Mort> Im tired
22:32:07 <Mort> really tired
22:32:15 <Avatar> you tired person
22:34:55 <Spaceshot_tm2_> anywho, GTFOing time
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23:09:21 <Avatar> every time I go back to look at oracle, I read over it, shake my head, and look elsewhere again
23:09:40 <Thelen> yea
23:09:51 <Thelen> i can barely stomach sql as it is
23:24:20 <Avatar> no, I mean the oracle class
23:24:51 <Avatar> http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle
23:24:52 <Thelen> oic
23:25:07 <Thelen> not sure that changes my commnent :D
23:25:19 <Avatar> :P
23:25:25 <Thelen> :"P
23:25:35 <Thelen> anyway l8r beds
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