// #eevblog — 2019-11-05
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00:00:27 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: I still suck at shooting video in the field.
01:26:04 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: Child #2 is now sick along with child #1 (aka patient zero), the contagion has spread. My current model shows a projected worldwide pandemic within 5-7 days. Save yourself while you can.
01:56:05 <DHess_US> Halcyon, all of my dedicated D-Link switches and routers have died by now.
01:56:17 <DHess_US> And not because of bad power supplies.
01:56:25 <coppice> seems like that lacked dedication
01:56:47 <DHess_US> I think they all got bit-rot in their firmware flash.
01:58:48 <coppice> that would be very bad, even if they have poor cooling, which many of those small boxes do
02:14:55 <DHess_US> I've started buying TP-Link switches in place of the old metal Bay Networks Netgear ones. Netgear got into the fad of not included http configuration so you have to use a dedicated application.
02:17:54 <DHess_US> coppice, I suspect d-link was storing the firmware in NAND memory.
02:24:06 <coppice> The cheap SPI flash memory has a long retention spec. its only the flash for bulk stores that has horrible retention figures
02:28:32 <DHess_US> *NOR* Flash is built on much larger processes and is SLC so has long retention.
02:28:49 <DHess_US> SPI Nand Flash memory has the same retention problems.
02:31:45 Join: Syllith ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
02:32:00 <Syllith> Hello everyone
02:32:07 <Syllith> Anyone here?
02:36:02 <coppice> Something like a router only needs 10's of megs of flash. I didn't think they made MLC flash that small
02:36:03 Quit: Syllith ([email protected]) Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
02:52:38 <DHess_US> coppice, they don't. But the cheapest available parts may be much denser.
03:23:55 <coppice> I really doubt this. equipment makers tend to be paranoid about flash retension issues that are not recoverable. as a vendor you get a lot of seaching questions about retention behaviour from most equipment makers. However, the ones who sell most of their stuff in volume to large customers are super paranoid about retention
03:24:20 <DHess_US> <coppice> I really doubt this. equipment makers tend to be paranoid about flash retension issues that are not recoverable
03:24:33 <DHess_US> Not "consumer" equipment makers.
03:25:00 <DHess_US> And very few companies making SSDs specify retention.
03:25:16 <DHess_US> And I've measured several which were less than a year.
03:25:23 <coppice> SSD errors do not brick the product
03:25:44 <DHess_US> Um, and exactly how is it then that bricked SSDs are a common failure?
03:26:26 <DHess_US> If the Flash translation table is corrupted, then the SSD is always or almost always bricked.
03:26:30 <coppice> consumer makers are usually very concerned about retention. D-Link isn't really a consumer supplier. They sell a lot of their kit in volume to people like ISPs, who continue to own the equipment
03:26:46 <DHess_US> That is how those SSDs which they tested for power loss protection died.
03:32:19 <DHess_US> Old article about that problem with SSDs, https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/13/12/27/208249/power-loss-protected-ssds-tested-only-intel-s3500-passes
03:33:06 <DHess_US> What's going on is that during power loss, the state machine which controls programming and erasing in the Flash memory can fail corrupted the flash translation table which bricks the drive.
03:33:58 <DHess_US> The only way to prevent that is to have enough backup power to complete programming operations.
03:34:35 <DHess_US> Companies like Sandforce said that wasn't necessary and they were lying the whole time.
03:44:14 <DHess_US> Huh, as predicted, https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-custom-cpu-shut-down-1050052/
04:46:34 <coppice> ARM seems to have got its act together over performance, so it can squeeze people like Samsung out of the market.... meanwhile RISC/V is making ARM's M series look RISCier by the day
04:52:38 <DHess_US> There was never any doubt about ARM scaling upwards in performance. All that was required is development resources.
04:54:13 <DHess_US> I've studied RISC-V a little and what I have seen reminds me of the various impractical university RISC projects.
05:03:00 <coppice> RISC/V is really getting traction in China, and that's where much of the MCU action is these days. Plenty of non-Chinese companies that do their own custom silicon seem to be using it too
05:03:47 <coppice> Its a lot less clear whether the 64 bit RISC/V will get very far in the ARM A-series market
06:30:16 <Halcyon> DHess_US: The switch that died was a Cisco switch. I guess I expected more?
06:30:33 <Halcyon> The next one will more than likely be Ubiquiti
06:32:01 <DHess_US> Cisco has been outsourcing development for a long time.
06:32:45 <Halcyon> Yeh, I not a huge fan of the way they're company has gone. They were the shit back in the day, now, just as good, if not better alternatives exist for a fraction of the price.
06:33:21 <DHess_US> Halcyon, I'd also consider MikroTik
06:34:14 <DHess_US> They even make an economical 10G switch, https://mikrotik.com/product/crs305_1g_4s_in
06:35:00 <Halcyon> Yehhh I have considered those. For the price, absolutely you're getting a good deal, I just think from a software/firmware/cyber security point of view, they aren't a good choice.
06:35:18 <Halcyon> I think though it's very much a case of "you get what you pay for"
06:35:23 Join: ThunderSqueak ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
06:35:23 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o ThunderSqueak
06:35:40 <DHess_US> I do not have any complaints about the TP-Link switches I bought or about my old Bay Networks Netgear stuff.
06:36:21 <DHess_US> I don't like Ubiquiti as much since their newer 802.11AC CPEs are Airmax only.
06:36:40 <Halcyon> I already have one Unifi switch and access points, I'll probably just get a second. Particularly because I'm using VLANs and other things, they are very easy to set up and provision
06:36:55 <DHess_US> Can't use them as general purposes stations and clients like their older 802.11N units.
06:38:23 <Halcyon> What do you mean?
06:39:57 <steve30> I'm attempting to configure my new (old) cisco phone
06:40:40 <Halcyon> Steve, I'm intending on getting a SIP phone this week, so I'll be able to have a play with you on the weekend
06:41:44 <Halcyon> I just need to work out which one to get
06:42:02 <rust_collector> get one of each
06:42:03 <Halcyon> I was going to get Cisco, but I hear they can be a pain to configure with Asterisk
06:42:36 <steve30> This is an old Circa 2007 model. I'd suggest something new unless you like to play with stuff.
06:43:01 <Halcyon> I did look at the Yealink's but after I read all the CVEs, I won't be bothering. No Chinese spy phones for me.
06:43:39 <Halcyon> Anyway, best get to work. Talk to you all later.
06:43:58 <rust_collector> work?
06:44:02 <rust_collector> have fun
06:46:41 <DHess_US> Halcyon, I mean Ubiquity OS6 is Airmax only.
06:48:28 <DHess_US> https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/205202700-airMAX-Station-Won-t-Connect-to-Access-Point
06:48:37 <DHess_US> airMAX-AC: airMAX M devices are only able to connect to airMAX AC Access Points. But AC devices cannot connect to an M device as an access point. See airMAX - How to Connect airMAX M Stations to an airMAX AC Access Point.
06:49:31 <DHess_US> Basically unlike their earlier 802.11N Airmax CPEs, you cannot use the their 802.11AC Airmax CPEs to connect to standard wifi devices.
06:49:43 <DHess_US> They can only connect to other Airmax devices.
06:53:35 <DHess_US> So for instance right now you can take their old legacy Airmax M CPEs like their Nanostation Ms, stick three up on on a mast as sector APs for general purpose use. You cannot do that with their Nanostation AC radios.
07:10:46 <DHess_US> https://imgur.com/nODOo5V
08:06:55 <coppice> Ubiquity is a pretty erratic company. some of their stuff is really good, but they punctuate this with some stinkers
08:40:27 * orbii yawns, puts socks on
08:56:41 <rust_collector> mmmm, socks
08:56:54 <steve30> I can't get this phone to register :/
08:57:57 <rust_collector> where would it register?
08:58:36 <steve30> On the voip server
08:58:45 <rust_collector> oh, ok
08:59:03 <rust_collector> I guess that still exists
09:18:32 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: Got a couple of hours of 4k footage to edit today. Although it was shot in low light, so not sure how good it's going to be. Audio will also be meh I'm sure, but it's very cool stuff.
09:30:37 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: RT @Chris_Gammell: Not only is @tedyapo a wiz with a soldering iron (note his stockphoto tribute), he joined me on @TheAmpHour to talk abou…
10:22:12 Quit: DHess_US ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
10:26:03 Join: DHess_US ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
10:53:17 Join: DHess_US_ ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
10:54:15 Quit: DHess_US ([email protected]) Quit: Leaving
10:58:31 Quit: DHess_US_ ([email protected]) Quit: I <3 Austnet
10:58:34 Join: DHess_US ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
12:52:02 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: New EEVdiscover video coming soon, SUBSCRIBE! https://t.co/EC6TtPQwBh
12:53:03 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: RT @_youhadonejob1: Seems legit. 🤷♀️ https://t.co/3EUMmkEUpx
14:34:44 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: World's Most Expensive DIY Flight Simulator! https://t.co/JcihLiTjXU
14:35:44 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: I'm trying out this Youtube Premiere thingo... Apparently you can chat'n'stuff https://t.co/ghJuA38RBE
17:43:39 Quit: ThunderSqueak ([email protected]) Quit: Leaving
18:53:18 <Halcyon> Evening all
18:58:33 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: Sounds like a Youtube creator therapy session. I think I'll pass. Last time I went to a group event like that (retrenchment therapy) the therapist told me I was depressed but it just hadn't hit me yet. 25 years later I'm still waiting... https://t.co/k1UHvFqcwb
18:59:05 <Halcyon> Back soon, new switch going in...
18:59:08 Quit: Halcyon ([email protected]) Quit: Leaving
20:29:56 Join: Halcyon ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
20:29:56 Mode: (by ChanOP) +a Halcyon
20:30:01 <Halcyon> Woot
20:32:07 * T3sl4 headpats Halcyon
20:32:50 <Halcyon> AUD$330 later, I have a new switch
20:33:16 * Halcyon glares at the dead Cisco sitting next to him
20:33:49 <T3sl4> oh, not a Switch
20:34:25 <Halcyon> *grumble*
20:36:44 <T3sl4> https://objects-us-east-1.dream.io/secrettoeverybody/images/grumble.png ?
20:38:07 * Ampera sticks his finger up Halcyon's asshole and dials ghostbusters
20:43:26 <T3sl4> s'poopy
20:43:54 <Halcyon> Heh
20:44:00 * Ampera sneezes at T3sl4, alternatingly at 90hz
20:44:05 <Ampera> how do, Halcyon
20:44:12 <Halcyon> Alright
20:44:21 * T3sl4 coughs ebola at Ampera
20:44:21 <Halcyon> How's you?
20:44:32 <Ampera> it's been like that for a little while, but we're now 16 hours apart
20:45:02 <Halcyon> ?
20:45:19 <Ampera> it's 4 in the morning here
20:45:43 <Halcyon> OK...
20:45:53 <Ampera> -16 hours to Sydney
20:46:01 <Halcyon> No, I get it but
20:46:06 <Ampera> well it was 14
20:46:07 <Halcyon> <Ampera> it's been like that for a little while
20:46:12 <Halcyon> It's been like what?
20:46:31 <Ampera> 16 hours apart, but DST happened, it was 14 hours
20:46:40 <Ampera> so we're now 2 extra hours in time apart
20:46:44 <Halcyon> I totally didn't get that message at all
20:46:53 <Ampera> wha?
20:47:08 <Halcyon> <Ampera> how do, Halcyon
20:47:08 <Halcyon> <Halcyon> Alright
20:47:09 <Halcyon> * T3sl4 coughs ebola at Ampera
20:47:09 <Halcyon> <Halcyon> How's you?
20:47:09 <Halcyon> <Ampera> it's been like that for a little while, but we're now 16 hours apart
20:47:09 <Halcyon> <Halcyon> ?
20:47:24 <Ampera> yes, I don't get the problem
20:47:37 <Ampera> it's been like that for a little while, but we're now 16 hours apart
20:47:42 <Halcyon> When you refer to something, you generally need to say what that something is
20:47:47 <Ampera> as opposed to 14, and then 15 hour apart.
20:47:57 <Ampera> well I thought I was pretty clear when saying X hours apart
20:48:08 <Halcyon> Yes but you said that afterwards
20:48:27 <Halcyon> It's the word "that" that threw me
20:48:40 <Ampera> that refers to 16 hours apart
20:48:48 <Halcyon> Meaning you said something before and you were referring to "that"
20:48:58 <Halcyon> As opposed to "this" as in... what you were about to say
20:49:46 <Ampera> well maybe that's how australians do english, but not me
20:49:57 <Ampera> pronouns can be defined after they're used
20:50:26 <Halcyon> You Americans have a history of being fairly loose with the English language
20:50:44 <Ampera> well if I say, "This is it, this is the place where it all happened" I just defined two pronouns after I first used them.
20:51:38 <Halcyon> Yes but the first "this" refers to the next part of the sentence. You wouldn't say "That is it"...
20:52:02 <Ampera> "That's not good, I broke the plate"
20:52:10 <Ampera> is another sentence with a pronoun defined after its use
20:52:32 <Halcyon> Sure, but there was an action before the pronoun. i.e.: You broke the plate, THEN you said the words
20:53:08 <Ampera> What? The action is after the pronoun.
20:53:14 <Halcyon> If I were not present and not having witnessed the broken plate, it could be confusing
20:53:25 <Halcyon> Instead, you could say "This is not good..."
20:53:41 <Ampera> you're just like my grandfather
20:53:42 <Ampera> stupid and old
20:53:43 <Halcyon> The "this" being what you're about to tell me
20:53:58 <Halcyon> Eh, I just get pedantic when people misuse the English language.
20:54:15 <Ampera> That is not true, I haven't misused shit.
20:54:27 <Halcyon> Well what you said earlier was confusing
20:54:41 <Halcyon> The impression I got was that you said something earlier that just wasn't received.
20:56:05 <Halcyon> Anyway back in about 10, just getting dinner ready
20:56:06 <Ampera> T3sl4, you're a reasonable practitioner of the english language, was what I said confusing?
20:57:04 <T3sl4> you're nuts
20:57:25 <Halcyon> I'm not sure who you're referring to T3sl4 :P
20:57:43 <T3sl4> your nuts
20:57:51 <Halcyon> Yes, my nuts are nuts
20:57:55 * Halcyon jiggles them
20:58:05 <Halcyon> (Them as in what I just referred to) ;-)
20:59:18 <T3sl4> fuck your pronouns
21:06:24 * Halcyon licks T3sl4
21:06:30 <Halcyon> Cop that
21:06:36 <T3sl4> assault
21:06:47 <Halcyon> It's only assault if it's unwelcome
21:06:48 <T3sl4> you're a cop, figure it out :P
21:07:05 <Ampera> you're unwelcome
21:07:07 <Ampera> cyka
21:07:12 <Halcyon> Where you going?
21:07:19 <Ampera> to hell
21:07:19 <T3sl4> blyat
21:07:25 <Halcyon> I mean right now
21:07:32 <Ampera> nowhere fast
21:07:41 <Halcyon> School this morning?
21:07:53 <Ampera> in around 83 minutes
21:08:10 <Halcyon> I have a 4-day weekend coming up :D
21:08:22 <Ampera> all my weekends are 4 day
21:08:27 <Halcyon> Most of it will be spent fiddling with the SIP phone I ordered today
21:13:17 <Ampera> I'm still waiting for my PBX card to come in
21:13:31 <Ampera> apparently I got sent a package yesterday, but I don't know where it is because I can't find it
21:13:34 <Ampera> and I didn't order anything
21:14:47 <Halcyon> I was listening to a thing on FXO and FXS cards today
21:15:09 <Ampera> if it was connected to an FXS card, it might have been, and get this
21:15:10 <Ampera> a telephone
21:15:36 <Halcyon> By the sounds of it, it won't work for anything other than baseband voice. Digital data doesn't traverse well over analog to VoIP networks
21:15:50 <Ampera> yes, I know
21:15:59 <Ampera> most ATAs are the same
21:16:12 <Halcyon> I would have loved to have set up some ports for modems in my old computers to connect to
21:16:29 <Ampera> but since I'm getting a PBX card, I can tell you how it works out, at least if I can run fax over it
21:16:40 <Halcyon> They might still work, how reliably and how fast, I don't know
21:16:46 <Halcyon> Yep
21:17:25 <Halcyon> I'd love to do some tests when I get FreePBX up and running properly
21:17:35 <Ampera> Well, the other issue is that my line out is an Obi 200, via an FXO module, so since that thing can't reliably do anything 1200baud+ (I don't know if it can do lower), I won't get any improvement from the PBX card
21:17:59 <Halcyon> Hm, that's quite low
21:18:06 <Halcyon> Did the Fax standards ever go that low?
21:18:15 <Ampera> I'm talking about full duplex modems
21:18:17 <Ampera> not fax
21:18:24 <Halcyon> Oh right
21:18:30 <Ampera> fax it can reach up to 9600baud reliably, probably faster
21:18:43 <Halcyon> I think they had fax upwards of 33.6k
21:18:46 <Ampera> 9600baud is fast enough anyways
21:19:03 <Ampera> idk why, might be good for huge stacks of paper, but that's probably faster than some printers.
21:19:18 <Halcyon> *shrug*
21:19:20 <Ampera> at least based off, anecdotally, how fast it Tx'd
21:19:28 <Ampera> when I faxed my pizza order :P
21:19:53 <Halcyon> Yeh I remember
21:20:02 <Halcyon> I'm honestly surprised they still had a fax number
21:20:14 <Ampera> almost every pizza place in the nation does
21:20:21 <Ampera> it's just sort of a thing pizza places have
21:20:24 <Halcyon> That being said, I work for the Police, WE still use Fax
21:20:28 <Halcyon> It's crazy
21:20:32 <Ampera> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
21:20:44 <Ampera> it's a reliable technology that can work in the absence (sort of) of internet
21:21:05 <Halcyon> Very true
21:21:13 <Halcyon> It's not that far off SSTV
21:21:24 <Halcyon> All you need is a radio and a way to send packet data over it
21:21:26 <Ampera> not really, the entire phone network has been packet switched digital internet since the 1980's here
21:21:43 <Ampera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiofax
21:21:49 <Halcyon> Ahh yes
21:21:52 <Halcyon> :)
21:22:26 <Halcyon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiofax#/media/File:Krant_per_fax_-_Faxed_newspaper_(4193509648).jpg
21:22:34 <Halcyon> I wonder how often that actually happened
21:22:44 <Ampera> so unless you have a private telephone system, fax will always go over the internet
21:22:56 <Ampera> unless unless you have some small provincial exchange that's not fully digital yet
21:23:13 <Halcyon> *shrug*
21:23:16 <Ampera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiofax#/media/File:Radio_FAX_FURUSATO_News.jpg
21:23:18 <Ampera> up to at least 2005
21:23:32 <Halcyon> POTS is basically non-existent in most parts of AU these days
21:23:52 <Ampera> The US and Canada have a habit being large, but also inhabited.
21:24:08 <Ampera> and phone was pretty much /the/ telecommunications system for distant places, since it was cheap and easy to route
21:25:20 * T3sl4 ISDNs Halcyon
21:25:45 <T3sl4> heh, i knew a guy who used ISDN back in the early/mid 2000s
21:25:53 <Halcyon> I don't think ISDN exists here anymore?
21:26:21 <Halcyon> I remember faffing around with PRIs and BRIs about 13 years ago with video conferencing systems
21:26:41 <Ampera> ISDN is basically using the same PCM data lines that are for transmission of voice, just for data
21:26:58 <Ampera> so in a sense, anywhere that there's traditional digitized telephony, there's the same technology that made up ISDN
21:27:09 <T3sl4> almost always way more expensive tho
21:27:14 <T3sl4> i don't remember why he happened to have it
21:27:30 <Halcyon> It was pretty damn reliable
21:27:37 <Halcyon> Slow, but reliable
21:27:58 <Ampera> now I have an internet connection that would make an AT&T Long Lines tech shit his pants
21:28:18 * T3sl4 shits Ampera's pants
21:28:41 <Ampera> blows my mind whenever I think of it that I live in a society where such massive transmission of data is possible for decent prices, and Halcyon doesn't
21:29:11 <T3sl4> australia is like 1/10th the population density of the us
21:29:23 <T3sl4> let alone your state
21:29:32 <Halcyon> To be fair, I watch a lot of videos about people in the US complaining that your fixed line and cellular speeds are shit and that you're forced to connect to one or two crappy service providers.
21:29:57 <Halcyon> It makes me appreciate what we have, even though I'm on VDSL2 at 40/10
21:29:59 <Ampera> T3sl4, that is what one would call a misappropriation of statistics.
21:30:16 <T3sl4> yeah, i forget which way that goes actually, but most of this country is very limited in options
21:30:23 <Ampera> Internet is good depending on where one lives.
21:30:25 <Halcyon> If I need high speed data (and most of the times I don't), I just use my mobile
21:30:33 <Ampera> If you can get a telco as an ISP, then you're golden.
21:30:38 <Ampera> If you get a TV company as a telco, you're fucked
21:31:11 <DHess_US> ISDN like T1 is also a baseband modulation.
21:31:32 <Ampera> that being said, AT&T still maintains its legendary and timeless reputation of being absolute and total cunts to subscribe to
21:31:35 <DHess_US> Which is why SDSL replaced ISDN and T1 for longer lines.
21:31:38 <T3sl4> not that anyone ever had T1 because it was super duper expensive
21:32:05 <DHess_US> T3sl4, true, but many people had SDSL. I did at one point.
21:32:35 <DHess_US> The difference between SDSL and T1 was only the difference between wideband and baseband modulation.
21:33:15 <Ampera> I recall having some form of DSL maybe 10 years ago, I do not recall what sort it was
21:33:26 <Ampera> I do know it was Bell Atlantic/Verizon service
21:33:29 <DHess_US> SDSL was amazing. It had lower latency than anything consumers commonly have access to today like ADSL or Cable.
21:34:25 <DHess_US> I had 768/768 SDSL for several years.
21:34:42 <DHess_US> Essentially fractional T1.
21:34:53 <DHess_US> Came with a /29 subnet.
21:35:11 <T3sl4> nice
21:36:15 <DHess_US> 768/768 is competitive with most current US plans because they are capped. That's 4TB per month.
21:38:06 <Ampera> Thank fuck I do not have a cap.
21:40:03 <DHess_US> If ISPs used the industry standard for internet bandwidth metering, then for instance Charter and AT&T plans would mostly be 384 kilobits/sec, https://www.semaphore.com/95th-percentile-bandwidth-metering-explained-and-analyzed/
21:40:23 <Ampera> One thing I'd love to have (and hopefully use) someday is a nice acoustic coupling modem
21:40:35 <DHess_US> Instead of their claimed "unlimited 100 Mbits/second"
21:41:36 <Ampera> That's insane
21:41:38 <T3sl4> Ampera: great joinery on those boxes
21:42:17 <Ampera> T3sl4, I know what you mean, and that would be the absolute golden example of one, but there are many more examples of acoustic couplers
21:42:58 <T3sl4> many more clones out there, natch
21:43:18 <Ampera> I mean it would be perfect now that I have a model *500 phone
21:43:44 <DHess_US> Hard to use one now without a standardized handset.
21:44:04 <Ampera> not a problem, my desk phone has a standardized handset
21:44:34 <DHess_US> The fastest ones I remember were 9600 bits/sec at the very end. Most were 1200 or 2400.
21:45:34 <Ampera> The ickypedia articles says 1200 was the practical upper limit
21:46:40 <DHess_US> The faster ones used predistortion. 1200 was the practical limit before DSP.
21:47:01 <DHess_US> So they were more advanced than even V.32
21:47:26 <Ampera> I bought a new stapleur
21:47:50 <DHess_US> They never became common because direct connections were allowed by then.
21:48:23 <orbii> i hope it's a red swingline
21:49:27 <Ampera> orbii, I almost bought one, but I wanted a small one, but they only ones they sold used undersize staples
22:08:31 <K> hello
22:16:19 <orbii> hi
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