#eevblog - 2019-08-20 - AustNet Archive Project

// #eevblog — 2019-08-20

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« 2019-08-19 2019-08-21 »
25:52 Join: ThunderSqueak ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
25:52 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o ThunderSqueak
25:21 * ThunderSqueak ponders.
25:25 <ThunderSqueak> how is everyone?
26:30 * T3sl41 thinks, says "good"
56:48 <ThunderSqueak> cool :)
58:36 <T3sl41> up to anything today?
20:03 Quit: DogWomble ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
24:23 <ThunderSqueak> nope, just hiding
24:34 <ThunderSqueak> decided to not go outside for 3 days
24:37 <ThunderSqueak> <.<;;
32:02 <ThunderSqueak> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jKZ9KGtee0
34:26 <DHess_US> Outwhat? I know not what you talk about.
36:10 <ThunderSqueak> haha
36:25 <ThunderSqueak> ya, I am going to hide from the world for a few days
38:02 <DHess_US> The problem with that is that the world loves to play hide and seek.
17:59 <DHess_US> https://i.imgur.com/MpUSNlV.mp4
20:02 <ziga> hey!
20:46 <ziga> T3sl41: I just finished my design with 74LVC8T245s and it works like a charm @ 1MHz, thanks a lot!
21:00 <T3sl41> cool
21:25 <ziga> i learnt to solder .65mm pitch smd packages at the same time :)
21:41 <ziga> quite easy actually
22:44 <ziga> now i need to figured out why i got 50ns latency when my signal goes across my fpga
23:16 <T3sl41> :)
23:25 <T3sl41> heh, now you get to learn how to apply constraints
23:41 <ziga> err, i know that already
23:55 <ziga> unless you mean mechanical constraints :'))
24:22 <T3sl41> ah
24:27 <T3sl41> well, good luck with that then :P
24:43 <T3sl41> or maybe it can be optimized or pipelined or something, but w/e
31:22 <ziga> PICs seems tolerant to that latency, so i might try to implement a pic programmer on an ESP32 if I succeed with my FPGA
33:01 <ziga> otherwise i'll just get the DATA pin routed so that both signals are in sync
35:32 <ziga> the 50ns latency is due to my design and fpga clocking at 12MHz rn, so it's fine :)
35:54 <ziga> it almost disappears when i wire the pins together
36:14 <ziga> (in the design)
41:17 <ziga> since you've been good advice with the bus, what would you recommend to raise a voltage from 5V to 13V ? a step-up converter ?
47:59 <T3sl41> ew, high voltage programming
48:07 <T3sl41> what do those need, anyway? like 10s mA? 100s?
48:15 Nick: T3sl41 is now known as T3sl4
49:15 <ziga> only on the MCLR pin to get the PIC in programming mode
49:30 <ziga> so it's only a few mA
49:38 <ziga> lemme check
49:53 <T3sl4> far as i know, that's used for internal programming supply, so it could be relatively a lot
50:36 <T3sl4> pretty sure programmers only have linear regs for those, looks like a few watts kind of a thing, so it shouldn't be crazy
50:55 <T3sl4> but if it's like amps for milliseconds that would be kinda crazy
51:59 <ziga> looks like to be max 50mA
52:10 <T3sl4> ah good
52:33 <ziga> nope, it's really just to get the PIC to change its execution mode
52:33 <T3sl4> i'd probably drop in whatever boost i have handy
52:41 <ziga> the programming flows through the DATA pin
52:54 <ziga> which is low voltage (1.8 to 5V)
53:42 <T3sl4> well duh the data does
54:03 <T3sl4> i mean what they're doing is not just flipping RAM bits, it needs the crazy voltage for a reason, it's a special process
54:08 <ziga> trying to figure out which one is being used in the ICD3 but i have no clue what it should look like
55:06 <T3sl4> i forget what erases EEPROM, but what writes it is "hot carriers" which basically means turning on the transistor with a fuckton of voltage across it (VPP) and nearly burning it out, during which some of the electrons spray out of the channel and get stuck in the floating gate, programming the cell
55:46 <T3sl4> then whenever it's read at low voltage (nominal, 3-5V or whatever), the charge stays in place and the transistor is either stuck on or off, voila, data storage
55:52 <ziga> not sure, it might be for historical reasons: RS-232 could drive up to 15 volts
56:25 <T3sl4> i know that's why old school E(E)PROM needs VPP, it physically requires it for writing
56:35 <ziga> and since the MCLR interprets 0V as RST, 5V as normal operatin and 13V as programming state it could be understandable
56:48 <T3sl4> early ones needed like 18V or something crazy like that, most, like, 27C16s and such used 12.5V or thereabouts
57:12 <T3sl4> modern Flash still does the same thing, but it's called Flash because it's done a sector at a time, and it doesn't need the external supply because an internal charge pump provides it
57:22 <ziga> hm, i'll digg into that and let you know about my findings :)
57:38 <T3sl4> they probably use less, like 6 or 9V (VCC stepped up a few times) but it's still part of the process, just hidden away
57:53 <T3sl4> starting up that supply is a big part of why flash is so slow to write, IIRC
58:26 <T3sl4> anyway, last 5V input, boost-y chip i used was MIC2619, seemed alright
59:01 <ziga> https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/pic-vpp-13v-how-much-current.21814/
59:02 <T3sl4> little 6-pinner, i used it for 15V 60mA output, seemed perfectly fine, didn't notice anything weird
59:40 <ziga> TLDR; it made sense with old eeproms, but now that PICs integrates FLASH memory it's just a matter of setting the PIC to programming mode, thus it doesn't draw much current
59:51 <T3sl4> yeah, entirely possible
00:25 <T3sl4> and this is PIC we're talking about, far be it for Microchip in their infinite wisdom to shift to a sensible programming protocol or anything
01:31 <T3sl4> if you like to follow the charge pump method, i'd suggest a CMOS 555 (7555 or LMC, whatever variant) and use schottky diodes (BAT54S?) in a voltage tripler, to get probably a bit under 15V
01:37 <ziga> they would tell you that "it just works", which is false, just have a look at what they're doing with their own programmer, they sell it with incomplete coverage of their PICs
01:52 <T3sl4> or quadrupler for somewhat lower Vin
02:07 <T3sl4> and follow up with an LDO if you need/want it more precise
02:30 <ziga> ok, i have that in hand, i may try this way first
04:18 <ziga> i didn't expect this channel to be that much active, i need to raise my irssi buffer size :)
04:29 <T3sl4> heh
04:36 <T3sl4> yeah, Halcyon is a chatty cathy
05:30 <ziga> are you also from australia btw ?
05:38 <T3sl4> US
05:56 <ziga> which part
06:00 <T3sl4> WI
13:14 <rust_collector> mmmm cheese
14:05 <T3sl4> you should come over some time, we collect a lot of rust
14:34 <rust_collector> Well, I am not sure I would be allowed in there
16:02 <rust_collector> at least... I should not, if they do any kind of background check
16:52 <T3sl4> https://i.imgur.com/uSFnmKj.jpg
20:29 <rust_collector> mmhmmm
28:42 <ziga> cheese ? wtf
28:54 <rust_collector> CHEESE!!!
29:08 <ziga> US doesn't even allow raw milk cheese
29:28 <ziga> which is the basics for good cheese
29:38 <rust_collector> yeah, and there is no dark grey market there
30:07 <ziga> dark grey market for cheese ? lol
30:22 <rust_collector> I am not going to say more about that
30:45 <ziga> if you love cheese, you've got to travel to my country :)
30:59 <rust_collector> Oreallynow?
31:01 <ziga> had 5 different cheese for the dinner this evening.
31:25 <ziga> come, i'll host you :)
31:27 <rust_collector> tell me more
31:40 <rust_collector> like... where is this 5 cheese country?
31:46 <ziga> France
31:51 <rust_collector> arrrgh
32:34 <ziga> the best cheese i tasted today was a creamy goat cheese with truffle inside that my wife bought
32:57 <rust_collector> I am thinking about a little road trip maybe next year. I have to get into france a bit too. I always went around france
33:44 <ziga> try to country side if you want to taste local stuff and avoid big cities
33:50 <ziga> the*
34:01 <rust_collector> I always avoid larger cities
34:07 <T3sl4> https://i.imgur.com/w1IlmWy.gif
34:20 <ziga> lol
34:37 <rust_collector> It is a thing I have been thinking quite a bit about lately... How do people live in the city?
35:29 <rust_collector> I just have no idea. yes, they live in an apartment, take the bus to work, then... what?
36:01 <ziga> no clue, i work in Paris suburbs but I couldn't ever imagine raising my kids there, so I'm 25mns away from work, got a house in the middle of a huge forest
37:49 <ziga> im also planning to move in the next two years closer to the sea, but couldn't find a land big enough to land a plane yet
38:54 <rust_collector> hmm, use a big elastic band, like on the aircraft carrieas?
39:26 <ziga> well that exists but for LSAs only
39:28 <rust_collector> if you spell that right, it makes more sense, so try that
39:30 <ziga> my planes are too heavy for that :)
39:47 <rust_collector> ooh,
39:55 <ziga> LSA or gliders actually
40:08 <rust_collector> lsa?
40:16 <rust_collector> late sheep
40:20 <rust_collector> what?
40:24 <ziga> light sport aircrafts
40:47 <rust_collector> nah, they stop fighter jets. they are not very light
40:50 <ziga> there's also the piper cub that can takeoff from a very short distance but it's a damnful slow plane
41:20 <rust_collector> I sort of want one of those steam catapults...
41:25 <rust_collector> in my garage
41:40 <ziga> it's actually a catapult on carriers
41:47 <rust_collector> so I can fling my toyota over the snow, and up to the road
41:52 <ziga> hahaha
42:27 <ziga> do you guys have heated driveways in the US ? is that common ?
42:52 <rust_collector> In the us, I bet they have air conditioned driveways
43:02 <ziga> lol
43:21 <ziga> where are you from ?
43:31 <rust_collector> norwaystan
43:35 <ziga> ahhhhhhhhh
43:44 <ziga> you're a troll
43:50 <rust_collector> some times
43:57 <rust_collector> it pays well enough
44:36 <ziga> :P
44:58 <ziga> i'm also planning a road trip with kids in .no/.fi/.se
45:40 <rust_collector> so, I guess you could take the E-18, from end to end
45:45 <ziga> got some friends living in norway, wanted to do it with a camper van during winter but they told me it wasn't a good idea at all
45:59 <rust_collector> that would add a bit of russia, and a bit of england
46:12 <rust_collector> no, well, it depends on where they are
47:01 <ziga> wanted to go around the fjords but it's apparently not really practicable in a camper van
47:07 <rust_collector> I live about an hour to the south from oslo, and the weather is probably not too different to down there
47:20 <rust_collector> plenty of people do
47:21 <ziga> (in winter)
47:29 <rust_collector> in winter... well.
47:39 <rust_collector> are you used to snow and crap?
48:11 <ziga> i'm used to snow
48:14 <rust_collector> anyway, it is not the best idea, as many of the interesting roads are closed
48:14 <ziga> and i'm also used to crap
48:34 <ziga> but usually we don't drive when it goes extreme here
48:39 <rust_collector> heh
48:51 <ziga> not because my cars are not properly fitted with the right tires
48:56 <ziga> but because the OTHERS cars are not
49:36 <rust_collector> extreme is a very relative thing, I have found. ask any english guy about that
49:50 <ziga> our laws does not sets winter tires mandatory during winter
49:54 <ziga> hah
50:03 <ziga> well, extremes starts at 10cm of snow here :)
50:25 <ziga> or when the roads are icy
50:40 <rust_collector> O g... uuh
51:01 <rust_collector> well, so only from october to late march then
51:07 <ziga> just imagine having thousands of people trying to drive in 10cm of snow without winter tires
51:23 <rust_collector> yeah, it would look like russia
51:30 <ziga> :')
51:42 <ziga> it rarely lasts more than 3 days here
51:47 <ziga> unless you live in the east of france
52:00 <ziga> or in mountains, but there chains are mandatory
53:09 <rust_collector> You know... it is only 5-6 weeks ago, that is quit snowing up north...
54:22 <rust_collector> say, from the middle and up, or so
54:33 <rust_collector> where it goes narrow
56:14 <rust_collector> but... If you have snow tires, and bring chains, just to be sure... mmmmmh. I say go for it. just fuel up when you can, because if you do get stuck, you have the house with you
56:36 <Ampera> hullo
56:41 <rust_collector> hey-o
56:49 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o Ampera
58:00 <rust_collector> You would get a different experience than most, so that is good
58:42 <Ampera> america is the only country, the rest are cuntries.
03:01 <rust_collector> america, that is next to africa somewhere, I think
04:51 <ziga> will do
06:09 <rust_collector> ziga: just ask if there is anything you want to know. I have done a bit of driving around here, as I am a driver....from around here
11:44 Join: DogWomble ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
11:46 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o DogWomble
12:27 <ziga> thanks :)
14:58 <rust_collector> I do think you are a bit weird, so that is good
15:17 <rust_collector> and so will you, if you do this
55:39 Quit: DogWomble ([email protected]) Connection closed
55:48 Join: DogWomble ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
55:58 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o DogWomble
59:09 <ziga> :))
59:25 <ziga> anyone here uses (or tried to use) ultrascope software from rigol ?
59:44 <ziga> i'm experiencing crashes when using 4 channels...
03:32 <rust_collector> No, I just assumed it would not work with my owon
05:11 <rust_collector> probably not the kikusui either, because it does not software
12:09 <rust_collector> meh, both are crap, but at least the old thing looks cool
14:14 <ziga> :)
15:17 <rust_collector> so, do you work with a french guy that used to live in greece?
15:24 <ziga> which one
15:41 <rust_collector> I take that as a yes
15:52 <ziga> huh
16:12 <rust_collector> Hmm, what was his name again
16:25 <rust_collector> but he does live close to or in paris
16:44 <ziga> T3sl4: i see >5v spikes on my scope on IOs A for which VCC is @ a stable 3.38V and I feel like it broke some of my FPGA IOs :(
17:21 <ziga> (talking about the 74AVC4T245)
18:06 <ziga> i thought that thing would prevent that :(
19:03 <ziga> https://imgur.com/a/ssw9IaA
19:17 <ziga> yellow/blue channels
20:58 <ziga> (don't ask me what kind of signal this is, it's the ICD3 doing some weird crap)
22:09 Join: ThunderSqueak_ ([email protected]) to #EEVblog
30:48 <ziga> going to bed, good night !
31:01 <rust_collector> have fun in bed
41:47 <T3sl4> ziga: shitty probing? check signal quality
41:55 <T3sl4> LVC gates are stupid fast, single ns
42:03 <T3sl4> more than enough to do that with wires and traces
46:42 Nick: ThunderSqueak_ is now known as TS_Laptop
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52:30 <ziga> err, dont know how to do that, ill check tomorrow
54:04 <ziga> the other reasons of my failures could be the different gate levels between the protrammer and my fpga
55:57 <ziga> 2V might be an uncertain state for the icd and pic where it could be high (when translated to 3.3) on my fpga
56:14 <ziga> dont know how to adress that
57:11 <ziga> thats another issue unrelated to the spikes i saw that i need to take care of
01:34 Quit: DogWomble ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
46:57 <DHess_US> https://twitter.com/iaeaorg/status/1163016378187689984
12:45 <T3sl4> cool
17:25 <DHess_US> Tickling the dragon.
17:40 <DHess_US> I wonder if this would be useful against dogs, https://www.brickhousesecurity.com/self-defense/zap-cane/
17:45 <T3sl4> with something other than a screwdriver, fortunately
18:45 <DHess_US> Doing something that stupid is exactly what I wuold expect physisists to do.
19:26 <T3sl4> *camera cuts over to the chemists literally sniffing solvents and tasting reagents*
20:07 <DHess_US> For whatever reason, physisists tend to be less paranoid.
20:32 <T3sl4> of course, neither group was very safety conscious back in those days, relative to today
24:46 <DHess_US> It reminds me of the phrase Peace Corbin likes - unusually stupid.
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55:51 Quit: T3sl4 ([email protected]) serviceshub.austnet.org onacloud.vic.au.austnet.org
55:51 Quit: pakesson ([email protected]) serviceshub.austnet.org onacloud.vic.au.austnet.org
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00:14 Mode: (by ChanOP) +o T3sl4
00:26 * T3sl4 buhs
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05:03 * steve30 pets T3sl4 
05:16 <T3sl4> :3
08:06 * T3sl4 hugs steve30
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46:09 <steve30> I hate it when ebay sellers have numerous listings for the same item.
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55:07 <Ampera> Thank you damian (or whoever) for updating the TLS cert.
57:12 Quit: ibiza ([email protected]) Quit: ZNC 1.6.3+deb1ubuntu0.1 - http://znc.in
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38:42 <Halcyon> Mew
24:20 <DogWomble> hey :)
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39:35 <ziga> T3sl41: fixed the issue by disabling the programmers pull resistors :)
40:15 <ziga> its time to have some fun now
40:52 <rust_collector> why are you still up?
49:04 <ziga> lol no i just woke up
49:17 <ziga> its almost 2pm here
49:43 <ziga> but you should already know that we're in the same timezone
53:23 <rust_collector> should, yes
54:03 <rust_collector> like you, I just woke up, I have not been out to look at my sun dial
02:04 <ziga> :))
02:55 <ziga> T3sl41: the other issue was that the fpga IOs was apparently drawing too much power from the PIC and made it fail, providing an external power supply (just taking a 5V output from the FPGA) did the trick
03:13 <ziga> probably not much but too much
03:48 <ziga> forget what i just said, it starts failing again :(
04:12 <ziga> this shit is behaving randomly i don't get it
18:17 Quit: DogWomble ([email protected]) Ping timeout: 121 seconds
20:37 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: #StockImage time She's wondering what happened to her solder spool... https://t.co/HfUXJBfoBF
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