// #eevblog — 2019-08-14
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00:23:51 Quit: steve31 ([email protected]) Quit: This user has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down.
01:19:56 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: RT @LeoBodnar: "Sanity - is madness put to good use." This is RAIO - redundant array of inexpensive oscillators. All 100 of them peer-to-…
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04:46:59 <Guest|89825> just found this site clearance page http://www.saelig.com/category/CL.htm They have a few FTDI chips on sale for 1$ like FT2232C/L/D, FT2232HL and the FT2232HQ-Mini Module for 5$
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10:20:09 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: Damn it, the new @MAGIX_INT Vegas 17 locks up every 10 minutes.
10:25:11 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: @MAGIX_INT Oh FFS, now it's locking up every couple of minutes. I'm trying to edit an hour long video, this is nuts. And I can't go back to v16 because it doesn't load a v17 project. Can I get my money back @MAGIX_INT ?
10:34:15 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: Good news is I'm able to load up both @MAGIX_INT Vegas v16 and v17 at the same time and copy and paste my timeline clips from v17 back to v16. Back on track.
12:26:05 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: The worlds worst multimeter video rendering now. Only 46min... Maybe I should do a shorter FAIL compilation for the main channel and then link to the directors cut on the 2nd channel?
13:00:20 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: Nice article on sub 10 cent micros: https://t.co/OpvgB9YVlD
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15:36:32 <EEVBlog> New EEVBlog Tweet: Some people wanted to see my new DC isolator, here you go. https://t.co/REHneldFAn
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15:56:58 <mbrumlow> Question for Dave (or anybody who might know): Not knowing how power meters work, or how many times there are. Could those "home energy savers" actually be trying to lower your bill by not saving electricity, but by gaming the electricity meter ?
15:57:11 <Ampera> Nope.
15:57:20 <Ampera> If they did, everyone would do it, and if everyone would do it, they would have countermeasures.
15:57:22 <mbrumlow> I assume at least the digital ones only can sample at a given interval.
15:57:35 <mbrumlow> Lets say its once a second.
15:57:49 <Ampera> I can't think of a way it can do that, though. Whatever power goes through the meter is what it measures, and is what you pay for.
15:58:12 <mbrumlow> Yeah that is the idea, but they have to have some resolution.
15:58:22 <mbrumlow> Just like the speedometer on your car.
15:59:15 <mbrumlow> Lets say though they checked every 30 seconds and kept a average.
15:59:25 <Ampera> That's not how that works.
15:59:40 <Ampera> You can't just switch AC current fast enough to cheat a meter like that.
15:59:48 <mbrumlow> What if between second 1 and 30 for 5 seconds, you used a ton of electricity and then stopped.
16:00:02 <Ampera> Because the polling rate is likely way faster than a time you could count.
16:00:18 <mbrumlow> If they are polling, then you for sure can time it.
16:00:21 <Ampera> There's no reason they couldn't crank up the speed to millisecond reading.
16:00:29 <mbrumlow> Sure they can do that.
16:00:32 <Ampera> Maybe even far more granular.
16:00:35 <Ampera> They probably do that.
16:00:37 <mbrumlow> But do they
16:00:58 <Ampera> Take a stopwatch and flick your mains breaker on every second and turn it off every second
16:01:09 <mbrumlow> Even at a millisecond
16:01:09 <Ampera> report back when you burn your house down
16:01:27 <mbrumlow> You would not need to do it at the mains.
16:01:29 <Ampera> You know that mains is AC, right?
16:02:13 <Ampera> Thinking about it, they would only have to take readings every 1/120th of a second (maybe even 1/60th) to get a reading that can't just be fudged by turning shit on and off
16:02:42 <mbrumlow> And I don't think they do that.
16:03:17 <Ampera> Why wouldn't they
16:03:20 <mbrumlow> I remember reading a while back that LED lights gave them some trouble because not only did they use less power, they messed with the meters.
16:03:23 <mbrumlow> Cost.
16:03:41 <mbrumlow> It cost a lot to get precision.
16:03:57 <mbrumlow> Those fancy multi meters sitting on daves bench should speak loud enough.
16:04:12 <Ampera> m9 you came in here to ask a question
16:04:14 <mbrumlow> Getting precision readings about usage cost.
16:04:19 <Ampera> if you're just gonna only accept your own answer why are you asking
16:04:35 <mbrumlow> That and we already know form independent studies they are not that good at it anyways.
16:04:51 <Ampera> Good for you, why are you telling me this?
16:05:01 <Ampera> You're giving away your amazing idea of how to save people hundreds on their electricity bills.
16:05:02 <mbrumlow> No, you are not having a real conversation about it, you Just said "NO" with BS reasons.
16:05:15 <mbrumlow> You don't seem to know how they even work how often they sample.
16:05:18 <Ampera> No, I gave you reasons, you just didn't like them, and then continued to say, no I don't think they do that.
16:05:37 <Ampera> No I don't, you didn't seem to know either, so I gave you my best opinion.
16:05:55 <mbrumlow> "If they did, everyone would do it, and if everyone would do it, they would have countermeasures. " is not a real reason to say No.
16:05:56 <Ampera> Again, if you don't like my answer why bother asking.
16:06:18 <Ampera> I gave you a bit more than just that, but as I said, you're reading what you want to see, and believing what you want to believe.
16:06:25 <Ampera> If you're right why do you care if I'm wrong.
16:06:35 <mbrumlow> Well I was hoping to have a conversation about it. But you have not said anything convincing.
16:06:53 <mbrumlow> I don't even know who *you* are.
16:06:57 <Ampera> I am me.
16:07:04 <Ampera> We had a conversation, you disagreed.
16:07:29 <Ampera> What more do you want from me
16:08:39 <mbrumlow> I real conversation about the topic...
16:09:27 <mbrumlow> It seems logical that if the power company only samples at a given interval -- that if you used power between that interval -- you could go undetected.
16:10:05 <Ampera> I do not think that increasing the polling rate of whatever means they use to measure the power draw through mains meters is a particular expense. Memory and computing is cheap, and for the few cents per meter they might have to pay to increase polling rates, they would likely save loads of money from people trying to cheat the system.
16:10:10 <Ampera> I said this already, you didn't like that.
16:10:15 <Ampera> I don't know more.
16:10:35 <Ampera> At the end of the day, if you really want to cheat shit, just tamper with the meter, hack it so it reports way less than what you're using
16:10:46 <Ampera> some other meter somewhere else will probably catching you stealing electricity.
16:10:53 <mbrumlow> You have a chicken and egg problem though.
16:10:59 <mbrumlow> Loads of people are not cheating the system.
16:11:15 <mbrumlow> So they don't have a intensive to have such robust systems.
16:11:39 <mbrumlow> I am not trying to steal electricity.
16:13:16 <Ampera> That's exactly what you are doing.
16:13:47 <Ampera> You're trying to tamper with hardware intended to charge you for a service you are utilizing.
16:13:57 <Ampera> It is, straight up, stealing.
16:14:08 <mbrumlow> I am doing nothing, I am talking about the "free power things" dave's videos debunk
16:14:23 <Ampera> Then you are talking about stealing.
16:15:03 <Ampera> Most of the free power devices on Dave's videos are basically a big box with a capacitor in there, designed to smooth out power, which in some very rare cases like industrial inductive loads /might/ save a few pennies, which is why those devices exist.
16:15:06 <mbrumlow> I am talking about how the "free power meters" advertise to save money on power bills and wondering how they come to that conclusion.
16:15:17 <Ampera> They don't.
16:15:21 <Ampera> They put bullshit in a box and sell you it.
16:15:32 <mbrumlow> And suggesting that using a bench meter won't show you what you really need to be looking for.
16:15:41 <mbrumlow> You are missing the point.
16:16:15 <mbrumlow> The point is a cap charges fast, and maybe in some 3rd world country where these things are often sold, they can suck the power out at higher speeds into the cap in between the meters checks
16:16:26 <mbrumlow> And then slowly feed it back into whatever device you are using.
16:16:44 <mbrumlow> Sure some of them are snake oil, but it makes me wonder.
16:17:57 <Ampera> If you think it works so well, then you buy one of those devices, and conduct a scientific test of your own.
16:19:49 <Ampera> I'm not about to talk about the semantics of electrical component function with your bloated ass, and I've already made my point that you simply don't like. So while you might see the perpetual motion of you sucking your own cock, your bullshit is not going to let people simply steal power from the grid.
16:19:53 <Ampera> Shit doesn't work like that.
16:20:00 <mbrumlow> You have to be the most combative person I have ever found on the internet.
16:20:43 <Ampera> No because most people wouldn't have the pure mental disciplined strength to deal with someone of your absolute wonders.
16:21:41 <mbrumlow> Your entire reason of why is the one a child would give - "No, because they would prevent people from stealing"
16:22:20 <Ampera> I already gave you more than that, but you didn't care to read it, since it's not what you think.
16:22:55 <mbrumlow> Because you have failed to give a technical reason why -- because you simply don't know enough to have answered in the first place.
16:23:02 <Ampera> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/542853460157136896/607214488499912715/EA_WV3HW4AAr6T8.png
16:24:14 <mbrumlow> You do know, that if somebody ask a question you don't know anything about and can't actually have a conversation on it you don't have to answer. You could have just said thing...
16:24:26 <Ampera> I've given a technical reason why, two of them. I'll give them again. I do not believe increasing polling rates would be any significant challenge to an electric meter. Even if it did, they would simply have to take measures in sync with the peaks and troths of the AC wave, which are always going to be the most extreme points of current draw.
16:25:00 <Ampera> With alternating current, you can't have more energy after the peak until you've already alternated, and then alternated back to another peak.
16:25:18 <Ampera> Or have you never seen a sine wave?
16:25:25 <mbrumlow> We have hardware that can time down to uS, so milliseconds is not going to help much. But if there is any gap you can for sure time it.
16:26:01 <Ampera> You don't need it, you'd only need a polling rate of about 60-120Hz, depending on technicalities I can't be fucked to read into right now.
16:26:10 <Ampera> I've explained it three times already, and you don't give a shit.
16:26:56 <mbrumlow> No, you say what they would do if somebody did do this. Very different than what they are doing now. You don't actually hold the knowledge I am looking for.
16:27:58 <Ampera> You didn't ask for exactly how it works, you asked for hypothetical to match your hypothetical.
16:28:07 <mbrumlow> I am reading the specs on one of these power meters and they do measure at intervals.
16:28:23 <T3sl4> Ampera, it's perfectly reasonable for something to be defeated by peaky or infrequent signals
16:28:23 <Ampera> What is the interval
16:28:28 <mbrumlow> If I asked a hypothetical -- then you have to stick to the hypothetical limits.
16:28:41 <T3sl4> apparently the old magnetic ones could be fooled by a heavily capacitive load
16:28:44 <Ampera> mbrumlow, that's exactly what I'm doing and you're upset about it.
16:28:47 <mbrumlow> You added to my hypothetical
16:28:59 <mbrumlow> Simply put
16:29:05 <mbrumlow> if they sample every 30 seconds
16:29:14 <T3sl4> mbrumlow: mind that Ampera just likes to argue
16:29:16 <mbrumlow> and you sucked power for 5 seconds between each 30 second sampling --
16:29:18 <mbrumlow> then ...
16:29:54 <Ampera> T3sl4, in a digital meter, if the polling rate was 60hz and synced to measure at the peak of current, would that not give a fairly tight mechanism to prevent people from just jumping the poll?
16:30:26 <T3sl4> Ampera, if the polling rate is 60Hz then it either measures only peaks or only zeroes
16:30:45 <mbrumlow> Ampera: you might be right, but we have no proof that they actually sample that rate. You are solving the problem of "if people are doing this"
16:30:53 <Ampera> That's the point, the peaks are /peaks/, you can't have more current after the peak until another peak, which comes at a regular interval.
16:31:13 <Ampera> mbrumlow, which is providing a hypothetical, this is my opinion, and it's all I can give you
16:31:16 <Ampera> which I also said 2-3 times.
16:32:24 <T3sl4> Ampera, consider beasties like this https://www.monolithicpower.com/en/documentview/productdocument/index/doc_url/L01QMTAwTF9yMS4wLnBkZg/prod_id/MTU/ which only draws current during the flanks
16:34:57 <mbrumlow> I am also not trying to solve this to do it, I am just wondering if that is the motivation behind some of the "power saver" devise - as note, they always talk about cutting your bill, not really saving power. And I could think in some of the places that these things are being sold the equipment probably was not designed by Ampera.
16:35:28 <T3sl4> worse, it might be designed by treez~
16:36:28 <Ampera> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
16:36:44 <Ampera> You asked a question, I answered. If you don't like it, don't get upset by it.
16:36:56 <mbrumlow> And everybody who looks at them on the internet always hooks them up to a fancy multi thousand dollar meter to take a look, when the device was designed to thort something that cost $30
16:36:56 <Ampera> This is how I think things work, and why I think that's not likely to work.
16:37:04 <T3sl4> mbrumlow: you're taking this far too seriously. it doesn't need to actually do anything at all to generate sales. People are dumb.
16:37:14 <Ampera> ^
16:37:25 <mbrumlow> Then why put a cap in at all?
16:37:32 <mbrumlow> Not just a bag of sand.
16:37:59 <T3sl4> because that's what they've always done, and people keep buying them?
16:38:02 <Ampera> They likely do sometimes, but I'd imagine so that people like you can argue about if it does or doesn't work.
16:38:12 <Ampera> If it's a box of sand, most people can be convinced it's bullshit
16:38:26 <Ampera> if it actually has some cheap components in a box, then people are more inclined to defend what they believe.
16:38:45 <T3sl4> It's not like they're going to be FTC approved and validated on their obviously criminal / nonphysical claims.
16:39:14 <mbrumlow> Ampera: I am not defending them.
16:39:14 <Ampera> At the end of the day if you want to steal power, tampering with the meter is something that does happen.
16:39:27 <Ampera> People do get caught doing it too, and do face criminal charges for stealing power.
16:40:31 <T3sl4> incidentally, a capacitor does allow a tiny savings, the wiring losses to an assumed inductive load (which is probably not such a great assumption anymore, but used to be good when mains frequency transformers were all the rage)
16:41:06 <T3sl4> that's enough validity for them to sell it, whether you see a watt of it in practice or not
16:43:52 <mbrumlow> I think the power meter guys call it "windowing effect"
16:51:12 <mbrumlow> Anyways, I am going back to bed. Thanks Ampera and T3sl4
16:52:48 <Ampera> mbrumlow, good night
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17:32:46 <Ampera> hi DogWomble
17:32:53 <DogWomble> hi Ampera
17:32:57 <Ampera> how do
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18:14:34 <DogWomble> going ok Ampera how be you?
18:15:22 <Ampera> working :P
18:15:37 <Ampera> 4 student films to edit well before friday
18:15:42 <Ampera> with lotsa chroma key
18:15:56 <DogWomble> that sounds like fuun
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