// #d&d — 2016-02-12
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20:34:11 <Mekkis> steven, question
20:34:38 <steven> Mekkis, Misleading answer
20:35:00 <Mekkis> Heh
20:35:18 <Mekkis> How do you adjudicate Polymorph Any Object.
20:35:41 <Mekkis> One of my players wants to polymorph his pseudodragon familiar into an ancient dragon.
20:50:10 <steven> polymorph any object has specific restrictions.
20:51:04 <steven> it states it functions as greater polymorph.
20:52:20 <steven> so when used on creature they can polymorph into anything allowed by beasthape 4, elemental body 3, plant shape 2, and form of the dragon 1
20:52:44 <steven> the main difference between the spells is duration.
20:55:37 <Ballig> I would say that it would act like form of the dragon
20:56:38 <Ballig> the first line of polymorph any object is "this spell functions like greater polymorph", and the only exception seems to be that your target can be an object instead of a creature
20:56:43 <Ballig> otherwise I'd say it should be greater polymorph
20:59:55 <Mekkis> Ah. Got it
21:00:35 <Mekkis> So by polymorph any object, they mean: Polymorph: from Any Object, to Anything that Greater Polymorph allows. Right?
21:01:52 <Ballig> I wouldn't go that far, because it then goes on to talk about what happens when you transform it into another object
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21:02:15 <Ballig> I would say it's polymorph: from an object or a creature, to: a creature (as greater polymorph) or another object
21:02:54 <Ballig> based on only a few minutes' consideration, I would be leaning towards treating it as greater polymorph if it meets the conditions of greater polymorph, then looking at the flexibility inherent in the text if it doesn't
21:03:45 <Ballig> with perhaps the duration change if it meets greater polymorph, in order to account for it being a higher level spell
21:04:41 <Ballig> maybe not though, it's a pretty huge difference between 1 minute/level and week/permanent
21:07:02 <Mekkis> yeah, makes sense
21:07:55 <Ballig> the question becomes, I think, "why is it a higher level?" and I would go so far as to say it's because of the convenience of diversity for the situation
21:08:21 <Mekkis> oh, it's definitely valid being a higher level.
21:08:21 <Ballig> greater polymorph is level 7 and lets you use the spell as though it's one of several level 6 spells, and polymorph any object is level 8 and lets you use it as though it's a more diverse form of a level 7 spell
21:08:58 <steven> It is polymorph from any object to anything that greater polymorph allows, the duration is set by the discriptors of type and what not.
21:09:01 <Mekkis> It's a way of bypassing obstacles, a save-or-die, and a long-duration buff.
21:09:26 <steven> It is a very powerful and flexible spell.
21:09:27 <Ballig> sometimes it's possible to let a spell become /too/ powerful based on that single higher spell level
21:09:32 <Mekkis> Definitely worth being eighth-level
21:09:56 <Mekkis> but I was pretty sure it didn't let you got and turn things into CR25 monsters
21:10:25 <Ballig> I would say the link to greater polymorph in the first sentence is definitely intentional and designed to prevent that
21:10:34 <steven> one would hope so.
21:10:48 <steven> last thing we need is another magic bane bandersnatch thread.
21:10:59 <Mekkis> yeah. That was BS
21:11:23 <steven> Ahtuz uses his prepared casting of PAO to change a melee character into a dragon for the module.
21:11:40 <Mekkis> Ahtuz is your necromancer?
21:11:45 <steven> yup
21:12:15 <steven> nothing like giving a melee character... specially a barbarian, several additional attacks.
21:12:30 <Mekkis> Itzamna is considering getting a scroll of it - to use with his mnemonic vestments
21:13:03 <steven> and its a really stupid combination if the barbarian is a natural attack barbarian.
21:13:40 <Mekkis> At least Pathfinder got rid of the Alter Self loophole
21:13:48 <Mekkis> or it would be even worse
21:15:26 <steven> nah, they are both polymorph spells, so they dont stack.
21:16:04 <Mekkis> (that's not the Alter Self loophole)
21:16:17 <steven> oh yeah, that was just stupid
21:16:37 <Mekkis> Still works with Disguise Self
21:16:46 <steven> but hey, people will go for any bonuses they can get.
21:17:37 <Mekkis> Alter Self loophole: You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size.
21:18:18 <Mekkis> (3.5e polymorph is based on Alter Self, so if you're an outsider, you suddenly get a lot of choice)
21:22:34 <Ballig> 3.5e didn't anticipate all the splat books giving so much choice
21:22:36 <Ballig> it killed it
21:23:47 <Mekkis> You could argue that neither did Pathfinder
21:23:55 <Ballig> it's definitely getting to that point
21:24:01 <Ballig> I say "killed it", but that's too harsh
21:24:08 <Ballig> you just have to be fastidious about limiting it
21:24:11 <Mekkis> (Pathfinder has more base classes than 3.5 now)
21:24:21 <Mekkis> Have you looked at 5e?
21:24:31 <Ballig> I haven't
21:24:32 <steven> i've played it.
21:24:44 <steven> meh
21:24:49 <Ballig> I heard they didn't continue with the 4e path
21:25:01 <steven> Been playing Starwars Edge of the Empire
21:25:17 <Mekkis> I like it, to be honest. The rules are good at getting out of the way.
21:25:18 <steven> lots of fun.
21:25:41 <Mekkis> It's also interesting in that it's been over a year, and Wizards has released only one splatbook.
21:26:10 <steven> the rules are also good at empowering...
21:26:26 <steven> 100hp character at 3rd level
21:27:01 <Mekkis> in 5e? seriously?
21:27:29 <steven> yuuuuuuuuuuup
21:27:45 <Mekkis> Why?
21:28:03 <Mekkis> and how? I'm guessing it has something to do with druid.
21:28:09 <Ballig> is that within the scope of the challenge?
21:28:12 <steven> yeah druid stuff
21:28:34 <Ballig> or are you level 3 with 100hp while everyone else at level 3 has 15-20?
21:28:51 <Mekkis> Actually one of my concerns with 5e is that it is pretty difficult to die anyway. So having 100hp doesn't make much difference.
21:29:14 <steven> there is also the immortal druid build i saw
21:29:38 <Ballig> it's a bit sad that 5e isn't that old and these things are already possible, but sometimes as a GM you just have to say "no"
21:29:38 <Mekkis> This is theorycraft, right?
21:31:53 <steven> its a legit problem in the 5e community.
21:33:48 <Mekkis> oh, people bring them to the table and say "You have to let me play this"?
21:36:04 <Ballig> I can only see it being a problem in organised play if it's not disallowed by the organisation rules
21:41:23 <Mekkis> steven, can I unchain my first world summoner?
21:41:43 <steven> heell if i know
21:41:50 <steven> i dont play summoners and so arent familiar with them
21:42:01 <steven> and yeah its mostly in organized play
21:42:57 <Mekkis> I don't do 5e organised play
21:43:29 <Mekkis> that being said, Ballig, if you're interested in some 5e, my Wednesday evening group has a free slot
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