// #politicaldebate — 2014-09-04
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05:29:00 <wasim> Cairo, Egypt
05:29:00 <GreekSnake> What do you think of Abdelfattah Al-Sisi?
05:29:00 <wasim> oh you know about him!
05:30:00 <GreekSnake> of course
05:30:00 <wasim> what do you think?
05:30:00 <GreekSnake> I'm not Egyptian
05:30:00 <GreekSnake> it doesn't matter what I think
05:30:00 <Tigger_> I don't really understand what this lockout stuff is all about
05:30:00 <wasim> nor what I think too :D
05:31:00 <GreekSnake> lol
05:31:00 <wasim> but I hope he can develop the country
05:31:00 <GreekSnake> so you're not a member of the Muslim Brotherhood?
05:31:00 <wasim> no I hate them
05:31:00 <wasim> look
05:31:00 <Tigger_> why?
05:32:00 <wasim> in Egypt, if the army doesn't support you, you can't be the president
05:32:00 <Thoth> Tigger_: I'm not convinced it really solves anything
05:32:00 <wasim> even if it was a democratic voting!
05:32:00 <GreekSnake> a curious fact about Sisi is that he's reported to be quite a devout Muslim
05:32:00 <Thoth> Tigger_: apparently RPA has seen a decline. My wife works there and hasn't noticed such at thing. However I can attest that police callouts have increased
05:32:00 <wasim> and Al-Sisi has the army supporting him till now
05:32:00 <GreekSnake> despite his brutal crushing of the Islamists
05:32:00 <wasim> yeah they say
05:33:00 <wasim> and that explains a lot
05:33:00 <GreekSnake> how can you be a devout Muslim and not be an Islamist?
05:33:00 <wasim> and who said that they are the same thing!
05:33:00 <Tigger_> Thoth, I wonder if you are the one that arrested plivent, aka Jerome
05:33:00 <GreekSnake> given that Islam is a political ideology as much as a religion
05:33:00 <Thoth> who?
05:33:00 <Thoth> I feel like Eminem saying that
05:34:00 <wasim> no man :D Islam isn't all about politics
05:34:00 <wasim> politics is a part of Islam for sure
05:34:00 <Tigger_> I forget his surname, but he was arrested in Sydney for dealing drugs, and then became a raging homo in prison
05:34:00 <GreekSnake> who's this, Tigger_?
05:34:00 <Tigger_> you know plivent
05:34:00 <Thoth> Nope
05:34:00 <Tigger_> he gave us a detailed account one night
05:34:00 <GreekSnake> wasim, what do you think of the Islamic State?
05:34:00 <Thoth> But that probably happens frequently
05:35:00 <GreekSnake> also known as Daash in Arabic
05:35:00 <Thoth> I'm only general duties, I don't work narcotics
05:35:00 <Tigger_> I loved the some of his specific details "I had haemorrhoids, so they decided not to rape me that week."
05:35:00 <wasim> ISIS is a group of retarded people, I think created by the US
05:35:00 <GreekSnake> did he really say that?
05:36:00 <Tigger_> yes, he did
05:36:00 <GreekSnake> there you go, Tigger_
05:36:00 <Thoth> erm
05:36:00 <GreekSnake> <wasim> ISIS is a group of retarded people, I think created by the US
05:36:00 <GreekSnake> not Israel?'
05:36:00 <Thoth> As far as I understand, rape in australian prisons isn't as prevelant as it is in the US
05:36:00 <wasim> Israel and US are the same
05:36:00 <Thoth> Some morons believe media and movies, and think the same applies here, but it doesn't
05:36:00 <Thoth> It makes me question the validity of his claims
05:36:00 <Tigger_> he reckoned it was worse, as there's no nazi prison gangs to protect white prisoners from being raped by the muds, so you just have to learn to like it
05:37:00 <GreekSnake> so if ISIS were created by the US and Israel, why have so many Muslims joined their jihad?
05:37:00 <Thoth> Don't know which prison by chance?
05:37:00 <Tigger_> no, I never asked
05:38:00 <GreekSnake> unless you're telling us that they're all American and Israeli agents
05:38:00 <wasim> as they are manipulating
05:38:00 <Thoth> I disbelieve it. If he had gay sex in prison, it was likely by choice
05:38:00 <GreekSnake> Thoth, it's more sexy to say you were "raped"
05:38:00 <wasim> some muslim still believes in jihad as the solution knowadays
05:38:00 <GreekSnake> and you don't?
05:39:00 <Tigger_> Thoth, a girl always puts up a show of not wanting it
05:39:00 <wasim> so they join ISIS as they see them as the only Islamic group that still believe in jihad
05:39:00 <Thoth> I disbelieve it because, the people who bang on about it, usually have never been to prison. Or, after spending a weekend in the police cells (not actually a prison), are psychologically affected by it and are fearful of the concept
05:40:00 <wasim> no I don't, Jihad has its days
05:40:00 <GreekSnake> Tigger_, have you seen Orange is the New Black?
05:40:00 <wasim> but now! no it is not about jihad
05:40:00 <Tigger_> no, I refuse to watch it
05:40:00 <GreekSnake> wasim, I thought jihad was a duty for every Muslim
05:40:00 <wasim> yes, it was
05:40:00 <Tigger_> with all the stories I've read about western muslims going on ISIS jihads, it comes across like a big Boy Scout camp
05:41:00 <wasim> waaas :D as it was the way 1500 years ago
05:41:00 <GreekSnake> when did the requirement lapse?
05:42:00 <Tigger_> btw, while I've never heard of a genuine moderate muslim in the west, it turns out they do exist, but back home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioUS_xwFfXw
05:42:00 <VersatileBot> 1,0 You0,5tube Iraqi TV Host Breaks Down in Tears at Plight of Christians
05:42:00 <GreekSnake> what about Obama? heh
05:42:00 <Thoth> As an officer I've been to prison in the sense I've seen inmates in a normal circumstance in their cells, and not the visitors centre as the public has, which is why I understand its not as bad as people make out
05:43:00 <wasim> I've heared that Islam's image is distorted!
05:43:00 <wasim> but not that much
05:43:00 <GreekSnake> wasim, all Muslims in the West are seen as potential jihadists
05:44:00 <wasim> why?
05:44:00 <Thoth> If you want horrific prison, maybe not shapelle corby, but indonesian, thai, singaporian and malaysian prisons are particulary bad
05:44:00 <Thoth> You only need to hear the desperate pleas in the media for persons requesting prison transfers to australia... to understand that
05:45:00 <GreekSnake> because they practice the true Islam
05:45:00 <wasim> and what is the true islam?
05:45:00 <Thoth> There is no "true islam" just like there is no "true christianity"
05:45:00 <GreekSnake> the Religion of Peace, as practiced by the Islamic State
05:46:00 <Tigger_> just being around all that riff-raff in prison would be horrific enough, tattooed types and so on
05:46:00 <wasim> by calling themselves Islamic States it doesn't mean they really represent isalm!
05:46:00 <GreekSnake> Tigger_, it's obvious those Arabs feigning concern for the plight of Christians are Shi'ites
05:46:00 <Thoth> Tigger_: heh, its really not that bad. People talk shit in any environment and you can choose to not listen to it. Thats about the extent of it all
05:47:00 <GreekSnake> it's fine when they persecute Christians, but not when the Sunnis do it
05:47:00 <Tigger_> lol
05:47:00 <Thoth> Prison or arrest is often a tactic of police making use of that concept... as many people aren't strong enough to not be affected by prisons etc.
05:47:00 <GreekSnake> Tigger_, why do you refuse to watch it?
05:47:00 <Thoth> Fear can result to a confession
05:47:00 <Tigger_> refuse to watch what?
05:47:00 <GreekSnake> Orange is the New Black
05:48:00 <Tigger_> oh Orange is the New Black, it has lesbians
05:48:00 <GreekSnake> yes, and blacks
05:48:00 <GreekSnake> lots of blacks
05:48:00 <GreekSnake> heh
05:48:00 <GreekSnake> it's quite gripping, though
05:48:00 <wasim> who the hell told you that christians are persecuted in Egypt!
05:48:00 <GreekSnake> I thought it was silly when Patsy made me watch the first episode
05:48:00 <Tigger_> see, Prisoner kept it all white, and dykes like Frankie Doyle portrayed lesbians accurately
05:48:00 <wasim> media is fucking our brains
05:48:00 <GreekSnake> they are, wasim
05:49:00 <GreekSnake> Christians are not allowed to repair churches damaged by Muslims
05:49:00 <Thoth> wasim: weak people with no desire for education are fucking their own brains
05:49:00 <GreekSnake> or to build new ones
05:49:00 <Tigger_> GreekSnake, show that video to your bf, I'm curious what he'll make of it
05:49:00 <GreekSnake> which one?
05:49:00 <Tigger_> the Iraqi pro-Christian one
05:49:00 <GreekSnake> oh, he would scoff at it
05:50:00 <GreekSnake> wasim, do you have any Christian friends?
05:50:00 <wasim> no man, when a churche is being damaged the government repairs it
05:50:00 <wasim> and yes I have many
05:50:00 <Tigger_> I wondered if they were remnants of Saddam's administration
05:50:00 <GreekSnake> but Islam forbids Muslims from befriending infidels
05:52:00 <wasim> no, Prophit Muhammid was good to a Jew neighbour
05:52:00 <GreekSnake> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copts#Persecution_and_discrimination_in_Egypt
05:52:00 <wasim> though this jew was throwing garbage in front of Prophit Muhammid's house
05:52:00 <GreekSnake> Until recently, Christians were required to obtain presidential approval for even minor repairs in churches. Although the law was eased in 2005 by handing down the authority of approval to the governors, Copts continue to face many obstacles and restrictions in building new churches. These restrictions do not apply for building mosques.[58][59]
05:53:00 <Thoth> GreekSnake: the definition of infidel is open to interpritation
05:53:00 <GreekSnake> no, it's not
05:53:00 <Tigger_> the other bad thing about being in prison would be the prison library, I bet it's all The Davinci Code and whatever else proles read
05:53:00 <GreekSnake> in Islam, any non-Muslim is an infidel
05:54:00 <Tigger_> GreekSnake is right
05:54:00 <GreekSnake> and many Muslims consider other Muslims to be infidels too
05:54:00 <Tigger_> like Shiate and Sufi
05:55:00 <GreekSnake> yes
05:55:00 <GreekSnake> or even Salafi versus non-Salafi Sunnis
05:55:00 <wasim> man, even if I consider any one as infidel it doesn;t mean that he Can't be my friend
05:55:00 <GreekSnake> but the Koran forbids it
05:55:00 <GreekSnake> so you don't really follow the rules then
05:56:00 <wasim> no it doesn't really like this
05:56:00 <wasim> some of quran parts was directed to a specific situation
05:57:00 <GreekSnake> how can you tell?
05:57:00 <wasim> so you should read Tafsir (Interpretation)
05:57:00 <GreekSnake> if you believe it is the literal word of God, it should be fairly straightforward
05:58:00 <wasim> why?
05:58:00 <GreekSnake> because it is meant to be read literally
05:58:00 <wasim> you should exert some effort to know the truth!
05:59:00 <wasim> if everything was that straightforwad
05:59:00 <wasim> so how can we distingush the one that really uses his mind from the one who doesn't
06:00:00 <GreekSnake> the truth is that that is how it is viewed by the majority of Muslims
06:00:00 <Tigger_> I shall find out
06:03:00 <wasim> greeksnake, I don't understand your last msg
06:04:00 <GreekSnake> I meant that most Muslims view the Koran as the literal word of God
06:04:00 <wasim> and it is
06:05:00 <GreekSnake> and God said you should not befriend infidels
06:05:00 <wasim> but as I mentioned, the truth shouldn't be that easy to be figured out
06:05:00 <GreekSnake> so why do you?
06:06:00 <wasim> no quran didn't say that, maybe it was miss-understood
06:06:00 <Tigger_> Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
06:07:00 <GreekSnake> heh
06:07:00 <GreekSnake> pretty clear
06:08:00 <GreekSnake> and there are many more
06:08:00 <GreekSnake> http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm
06:09:00 <GreekSnake> Cultural superiority is a doctrine of Islam that actually has a name; it's called Jahiliyya - and literally means that any culture without Islam is "ignorant and stupid."
06:09:00 <GreekSnake> oh, the irony...
06:09:00 <wasim> wait man I'm gonna tell you :D
06:11:00 <GreekSnake> Why do you hate us, wasim?
06:12:00 <wasim> this Ayah was about a particular situation, in which god told muslims not to take jews nad christians as friends as there were a person who betrayed Prophet Muhammid this man was a christian
06:12:00 <wasim> so god was warning them
06:13:00 <GreekSnake> there are many such "particular situations" in the Koran
06:13:00 <GreekSnake> lol
06:14:00 <GreekSnake> Qur'an (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."
06:15:00 <GreekSnake> lol, so high school
06:15:00 <wasim> Perhaps Allah will make friendship between you and those whom you hold as enemies. And Allah has power (over all things), and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
06:15:00 <wasim> 8. Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.
06:15:00 <wasim> 9. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zalimun (wrong-doers those who disobey Allah). (7-9 : 60)
06:17:00 <GreekSnake> Apologists sometimes point to verse 60:8-9 which says that Allah doesn't necessarily forbid showing kindness to unbelievers, but to shun the ones "who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out." This is an obvious reference to the Meccans, whose leaders expelled Muhammad and his handful of followers from Mecca (following
06:17:00 <GreekSnake> his declaration of war against them). The verse was narrated shortly after their arrival in Medina, when it was necessary for the numerically disadvantaged Muslims to build alliances with non-Muslims in order to survive. The verses quoted above from Suras 9 and 5 are narrated at a much later, when Muslims had power. The verses expand the scope of unfriendliness to include anyone
06:17:00 <GreekSnake> who is not Muslim.
06:17:00 <wasim> you know, I don't see you as an infidel
06:17:00 <Tigger_> who is an infidel?
06:18:00 <GreekSnake> I am a proud infidel
06:18:00 <wasim> I see you as a person who has a wrong picture of religion
06:18:00 <GreekSnake> ISIS would say the same about you
06:19:00 <wasim> and according to Islam, a person who wasn't delivered the religion in a good way can't be counted as an infidel
06:19:00 <GreekSnake> On the whole, Islam is very clear in teaching that there is no equality between believers and unbelievers, and hence no basis for a relationship of peers. Those who do not profess Muhammad are intended to exist in subjugation to those who do, then spend eternity in Hell. This does not preclude Muslims from acting friendly toward others, of course, but this does not constitute friendship
06:19:00 <GreekSnake> as it is generally understood in the modern world.
06:19:00 <wasim> and can't be sent to hell tough
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